ATC 250RF project under way...Still at it!!!

[torker]

Hi there guys. I was going to wait until it was done, but I can't keep this a secret anymore.
This is a pic of 2 weeks ago, a lot have been done since. I just want to give you guys a little bit.
For now. Here's a pic :naughty:.

http://img189.imageshack.us/i/hpim0240e.jpg/]http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3881/hpim0240e.jpg

What do you think?????? :naughty: :D :twisted: :crazy:

TORKER.

[Yamada]

That is not a Honda engine????

[volfan537240]

yfz450 engine right?

[torker]

No, it's not a Honda engine :naughty:. But it's coming along great. Today was ups and downs. I was supposed to start welding today, but it was not meant to be. Tomorrow, after some welding, I'll do a write up until where I'm at right now. Have a few pics as well.
Here's 1 more:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/406/hpim0239u.jpg

TORKER.

[JohnR.]

That's not a 450 is it? CRF250 engine?

[Kintore]

I would have to say a 250 as well?

[Billy Golightly]

Thats a dual OHC motor...all the Honda's are SOHC

[JohnR.]

No, it's not a Honda engine :naughty:.

I guess I should read more carefully. :lol:

John

[Bryan Raffa]

GIT IT!!!!!!!! I got my frame out last night!! its on the bench...

[audioworks04]

Deffinatly a YZF motor or a YFZ with a kick start conversion, I would say a yz250f. Most deffinitly not a honda like other people have said honda uses a unicam motor.

[torker]

Ok guys. Here we go. Originally I wanted to put a 350X engine in my TRI-Z frame, but the engine deal fell thru. After I said I was NOT putting down the money for a 250F engine, that's exactly what I did. I didn't find a YZF250, so I bought an 06' RMZ/KXF 250 engine. Yeah it's the same engine made by Kawasaki. Please, don't turn this into a Yamaha vs Honda vs Kawasaki vs Suzuki vs KTM engine thing. The motor is already bought and it's already in. And I guess it may have good and bad things, just like any other. But the price was $800.00 so I guess It's not bad. At least that's what I think.
This engines in particular are not torque monsters like the 350X's but they put down about 35 horses and good torque across the rev range.
I wanted a 4 stroke (and no, I did not want a 350X, it's frame and suspension are not good enough. Not to mention it's weight) so I guess this is it. Nobody (that I've seen) has put a 250F engine in a R (or Z) frame. So with this we'll put to rest the "good or not so good" debate about the 250F's.
This is what I'm planning for this build:

-Big Radiators (these engine tend to overheat and I want to make this as reliable as I can)
-Oil cooler (overheating and reliabilty again)
-Light weight (these engines are lighter than R's engines, and by a substantial margin)
-I'll need to find a way to install a radiator fan, somehow???
-A re-worked stock suspension will do, so, no upsidedowns or 450R swingers in this one (budget will not allow for it)
-A 7oz flywheel weight will be installed to get the engine characteristics that I'm looking for (this will help with stalling engines in thight stuff, easier starting as the engine will want to spin easier and more important, it will spread the power and gain some very much needed torque and not necesarilly loose anything.
-This will need to be a all around bike, so engine characteristics will be important.

Please bear with me as I go along with this. It's my first hybrid, so I'm going to need all the help I can get.

So what do you guys think????

TORKER.

[Billy Golightly]

Congrats Torker! I think this is a great project and its been talked about by a lot of people. I know of a few others that are in the "skunkworks" stage of development right now. If I can help out with anything, feel free to ask.

[torker]

This is with what I started: The DRAG bike

http://i45.tinypic.com/c3h9t.jpg http://i48.tinypic.com/2vtwdh2.jpg

It was a low budget/left overs Drag bike I biult for fun on the cheap. It ran a best of 5.08. But with all the local sand tracks closed, it was not beeing used. So, you know what that meant. The perfect project candidate :naughty: . It was turned very quickly into my woods bike, but it was never raced. It's zero (0), yes 0, hour engine was fired and it ran for about 2 minutes and then turned off (a small and slow leak was discovered thru the shift shaft seal). It had no chain, so the trike was not ran.
Then my mind went into overdrive and this is where I've ended up doing.

Frame without engine ready for some cutting.

http://i49.tinypic.com/26392s4.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/33wpbiw.jpg

After the stock engine mounts and supports were cut.

http://i49.tinypic.com/20kegqd.jpg http://i45.tinypic.com/23kyikp.jpg

The top engine mounts were cut after "thinking" they needed to be cut as they were interfere with the valve cover. WAIT...THIS WAS NOT NEEDED!!! Oh well...:rolleyes:

http://i48.tinypic.com/2rethg0.jpg

More to come...

TORKER.

[torker]

Congrats Torker! I think this is a great project and its been talked about by a lot of people. I know of a few others that are in the "skunkworks" stage of development right now. If I can help out with anything, feel free to ask.

Thanks Billy. Your help will be needed in due time.

Enjoy.

TORKER.

[torker]

Uppssss!!! Please, continue to the next page.

TORKER.

[torker]

The pics everybody was waiting for: THE ENGINES. Side by side. (Sorry for the before pics, had to change image host???)

http://i48.tinypic.com/120pdm9.jpg http://i47.tinypic.com/ivy1d2.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/5ocimp.jpg http://i45.tinypic.com/qxqrft.jpg

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT...

This engine had no stator or flywheel, that adds at least 2-3 more pounds!!!

http://i48.tinypic.com/2q184lg.jpg

This engine is complete!!!

http://i46.tinypic.com/2wp6tz9.jpg http://i47.tinypic.com/b5hemw.jpg

And don't even get me started on the exhaust!!!

Did you guys knew this???

TORKER.

[torker]

Test fitting the engine...

http://i49.tinypic.com/34629f9.jpg http://i49.tinypic.com/2pzh453.jpg

I must have taken the engine in and out about 500 time already. Good thing is really light!!! :naughty:

TORKER...

[tw05tr0k35]

I must have taken the engine in and out about 500 time already.

I hear that! About the fourth time you take it out a day it starts getting old.

[Louis Mielke]

I'm curious to see if that tank with clear, the rocker box on that bad boy is pretty stout. Looks awesome!

[torker]

Tank will need cutting and welding. Maybe repositioning of the petcock assy'. But I need to finish welding and fabricating the aluminum engine mounts first.

TORKER.

[Louis Mielke]

Not to rain on your parade, but I would look into the tank very carefully before you finalize your frame.

250Rfan cut and plastic welded a plastic tank for his 450r build, I might be out of place saying this but I'm pretty sure I read some where that it did not hold and he ended up having a metal one custom made. I doubt it was cheap.

[torker]

Yeah, I read that. I'll ask Jason, but I doubt very much that is a viable alternative for me, it will all depend on the price.
Since it's very minor what needs to be cut out of the tank (I have 1 cut already) compared to what needs to be cut for the 450R, maybe I'll try heating it. We'll see what happens.
But I'm sure I'll be able to do it, no problem

TORKER.

[Louis Mielke]

Sweet git R done!

[3leggeddog]

hmm,so all this talk about how much lighter the 250r engine is is crap....very interesting.

this is gonna be a sweet build to watch,good luck to you!

[Billy Golightly]

The engine weight is very interesting, for sure! I never would have imaged that the 5 stroke was that much lighter weight, wow.


Although, the CR500 motor is about 7lbs lighter than the 250Rs (Counterbalancer, forward kick start gears, etc) but a 4 stroke, just never would have thought it!

[torker]

Yes, I was very surprised. I had to put them on the scale a few times just make sure.

[torker]

FCR carbs are huge when compared to their 2 stroke counterparts. This is just 37mm

http://i49.tinypic.com/156beja.jpg

But it clears just fine. YFZ 450R throttle cable installed, works great. 1/4 inch needs to be cut out of where it threads in the throttle housing, otherwiese it will be too tight and the carb might even be opened.

The carb lines up perfect with the airbox boot, this is an easy fix!!!

http://i46.tinypic.com/2ur870l.jpg

You can see here everything clears just fine.


TORKER.

[torker]

The exhaust: Titanium -vs- steel

http://i45.tinypic.com/vypno9.jpg

More weight savings...The difference is amazing.

TORKER.

[taiterator]

Very cool build you have going on here!!! :beer

[audioworks04]

Awsome progress so far. Looks like that yamaha fits really nice in that honda frame. Keep us updated and good luck on the rest of the build.

[torker]

A new MOOSE steel shifter has been order, it will need to be cut and extended.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2rxdzc0.jpg

I've also bought some FLUIDYNE aluminum radiators, which are around 20% bigger, we'll se how those need to be modded. I think the trike has a better water routing than the bikes, obligating the water to flow to one radiator first and then thru the other before going into the engine. The bikes have 2 "Y's" that, IMO, is not as good. We'll see.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2db9ca8.jpg

Also I got from EBAY a 2008 kick starter that, hopefully, will clear the frame without any mods, hopefully. If not that's an easy fix. What I'm needing now is to get a silencer to connect to the titanuim header. I think the 2006 CRF250 silencer will fit best, but that will need to wait until some funds become available. I still have a some welding to do as well as fabricate the front and top engine mounts from aluminum, which hopefully, I'll try and make this weekend or the next.
Welding is going on this weekend. I'm really pumped with this project!!! :Bounce:Bounce:Bounce
I'll keep you guys posted.

TORKER.

[torker]

Some other bits and pieces that I've been getting:

Rear stock axle: There is no budget for an extended axle so this is it, I got it for $50 and it came with everything, rotor, hubs, nut, everything. Great condition too!!! I've used spacers with great succes and absolutely no problems. So this one will use 5" spacers as well.

http://i49.tinypic.com/ae1f68.jpg

Brake lines: I bought these from "The quad parts guy" on EBAY. Made the long, front brake line and, altougth not inclided, he gave me the banjo bolts and cruch washers. $70 to my door.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2lml7yx.jpg

Some more stuff is coming in, hopefully everything will be here next week. ;)

TORKER.

[torker]

Awsome progress so far. Looks like that yamaha fits really nice in that honda frame. Keep us updated and good luck on the rest of the build.

Uuhhhhh???? Yamaha????... It's a KX250F engine. Kawasaki. Although I'm sure the YZF250 engine will fit just as good. But I didn't find one in my price range. Yamahas are known to be the more reliable engines in this class, but less powerfull. The 250F engines put around 35 H.P. but are very, very heavy maintainance. Kawasakis are the best engines in this calss (next to KTM's) because they provide more tractable and usable power across the range. Not just 35 H.P. @ 13,000 RPM. And that was what I was actually looking for.

TORKER.

[riverrat]

I think it's great. Good job.
Those radiators are still available new?

[NOS_350X]

That is a project i have been talking about for years. With a little work i think they could really put the hurting on a regular 250.

I actually picked up a WR250f engine a while ago, needs a crank thats why i never started it.

[torker]

We'll see. I'll put this against my other 86'R and see what happens. That will be fun. I'm sure hoping to get the results I want from it.
The wide ratio tranny should be even better. The Yammies are good.

TORKER.

[torker]

I think it's great. Good job.
Those radiators are still available new?

Yes they are, but they are $479.00. Ouch!!!
EBAY is your friend. I paid $79.00

TORKER.

[riverrat]

Nice score!
I seen the PWR ones for 449. So much money, but I might need them.

[factoryX]

I didn't know they still made them.

[SYKO]

hey torker on one of my project to make a motor fit under the tank I heated the tank up ALOT moved it around with some wooden spoons (body man stuff) and made a 200x motor work in a blaster frame, I moved quite a large amount of the blaster tank around to make it fit but did it and no cutting or welding of the tank was needed, you might want to try that, oh I didnt use a torch just one of my heavy duty heat guns.

[torker]

hey torker on one of my project to make a motor fit under the tank I heated the tank up ALOT moved it around with some wooden spoons (body man stuff) and made a 200x motor work in a blaster frame, I moved quite a large amount of the blaster tank around to make it fit but did it and no cutting or welding of the tank was needed, you might want to try that, oh I didnt use a torch just one of my heavy duty heat guns.

Hi there SYKO. Well, heatings is the alternative I'll be using on the next tank. I've already cut one up, hoping to weld it, but with the experience had by 250Rfan and Jason, I'll be heating one very ugly tank I have left and make it work, since there is not much that needed to be cut to make it fit. Do you have any advise for me in this fuel tank heating mod. endeavor? I've never done this before.
BTW, thanks for the suggestion.

TORKER.

[torker]

FLUIDYNE radiators are in. They will need some modding, but I don't think it will be too bad. Hose routing may prove to be more of a challenge.

http://i46.tinypic.com/13zook3.jpg http://i48.tinypic.com/22gd0.jpg http://i47.tinypic.com/2w3dm5f.jpg


Do you think these will cool that HOT engine? It should help...

TORKER.

[MudBug]

looks like a great project. Interesting to see how it compares with the old 250R

[torker]

Well, to tell you the truth, I think a 250R will compare, in terms of speed, To a 450R. No doubt. I'm doing this just to see what the 250F can do. And because project bikes are FUN (and very expensive, even without bling!)
But I'll put them both to the test.
TORKER.

[torker]

There's been a minor set-back. My welder friend could not make it today, since I want the welding to hold (and look better than mine), I'm not doing it. I'm afraid it will have to wait another week.
I'll start on the radiators and a few minor details.

TORKER.

[SYKO]

Hi there SYKO. Well, heatings is the alternative I'll be using on the next tank. I've already cut one up, hoping to weld it, but with the experience had by 250Rfan and Jason, I'll be heating one very ugly tank I have left and make it work, since there is not much that needed to be cut to make it fit. Do you have any advise for me in this fuel tank heating mod. endeavor? I've never done this before.
BTW, thanks for the suggestion.

TORKER.


just heat it up till the part you want to move is plaiable wear some gloves you can heat the plastic up quite a bit in fact untill its smokin and move it around and have a spray bottle of cold water so you can move it and set it. you can almost turn the outward parts inside out if you heat it enough.

[torker]

That's what I thought.
Thanks Big guy.

TORKER.

[OZQUAD44]

How do the stock 250r radiators compare to the KX250F radiators? I would have thought the 250 two stroke radiators were bigger than the four stroke radiators as it was?

Great project you have got going there. I'm not a real fan of two strokes and I've had nothing but trouble out of my KXT250B motor. Fouling plugs at the worst possible moment, an intermittent high speed miss, and at times the dreaded powerful hookup at completely the wrong moment. I've always wanted to put a four stoke donk into it, but I didn't want to molest the frame too much as 87 Tecates are as rare as rocking horse poo!

The other thing holding back was the power drop. I raced 450 fourstroke quads for a few years and I think going down to a 250 may dampen my enthusiasm a bit. The KXT has heaps of power but its just too much work after getting off a fourstroke quad. I'll be interested to see how your project turns out. If its got a fair bit of stick, I may be hunting for a second hand Kx250F. Good luck.

[torker]

How do the stock 250r radiators compare to the KX250F radiators? I would have thought the 250 two stroke radiators were bigger than the four stroke radiators as it was?

Great project you have got going there. I'm not a real fan of two strokes and I've had nothing but trouble out of my KXT250B motor. Fouling plugs at the worst possible moment, an intermittent high speed miss, and at times the dreaded powerful hookup at completely the wrong moment. I've always wanted to put a four stoke donk into it, but I didn't want to molest the frame too much as 87 Tecates are as rare as rocking horse poo!

The other thing holding back was the power drop. I raced 450 fourstroke quads for a few years and I think going down to a 250 may dampen my enthusiasm a bit. The KXT has heaps of power but its just too much work after getting off a fourstroke quad. I'll be interested to see how your project turns out. If its got a fair bit of stick, I may be hunting for a second hand Kx250F. Good luck.

Check page 3 of this biuld for side by side radiator pics. Those are FLUDYNE, I don't really know about the stock KX rads. They are however bigger than the stockers and I do know for a fact those engines run hot and don't like to be trail ridden. 2 strokes are not bad if done for its intended purpose. Don't try to go trail riding with a drag engine. It will be horrible and will suck.
I'm sure the 250F will not have the get-up and go or torque of the 450's (that's why I'm getting the biggest, heaviest flywheel I can use). Those 450's engines are bigger (and a lot more expensive) and require a lot more fabrication, plus there was a lot of talk of the 250's and nobody doing it. Until now that is!!! And, if you've been reading this, you know the 250f engine is more than 10 pounds lighter than the 250R's !!!!!!!!!!! I'm just going to finsh this and report back to you guys. Still waiting on some parts and the welding. If my friend doesn't show up next saturday I'm going to another friend. But this one will charge me. Everything can't be free. Oh well. Bottom line is...
I WILL GET THIS DONE.
Thanks you and all those that had reply for your good wishes, help and support for this project.

TORKER.

[torker]

Pics??? Let's see it. All of a sudden there's a few 250F's in the works. I think that's pretty cool.
I would be even cooler if we could all make it to TF 2010.
TORKER.

[OZQUAD44]

I absolutely love these 4 stroke conversions. The work some of you boys have put into the 450 Three wheelers is awesome, but I've got to say this conversion has made up my mind.

Just think of this boys. The 1986 and 1987 KXT250 weight was in the vicinity of 280 lbs. Given the weight savings made by modern design and materials of the 250 four-stroke KX250F motor compared to the 86 R motor. It is not unreasonable to suggest that a KX250F motor in a 86/7 T3 chassis will equate to a 270 pound, fully suspended, low centre of gravity, corner carving machine.

Hurry up torker... Two ride reports please... and Make them snappy!

I'm off to look for a doner Bike.


Ahh.... nothing better than killing of a two wheeler to resurrect a three wheeler :-)

[torker]

Guys, there's not much to report. Progress has been slowed due to not having someone to do the welding available. As soon as my good friend (AKA the welder) gets untangled from some problems I'll kidnap him for at least 1 day of welding. The reason: He'll weld everything for free and there's a lot of welding to do. The frame will get some gussets and will be "stitched", just the same way we used to do with the race cars, plus some other miscelaneous welding here and there. Radiators are almost completly done (need some aluminum welding finished), pics will be coming soon. The kickstarter problem is almost done too (waiting for the welder to be finished) and last but certainly not least is the exhaust. I'll be buying that next, but I can't decide between a CRF250R LEXX slip-on or a TRX 450R stock silencer. I'm thinking the LEXX (read, more expensive) I'm almost certain it will need some modding to be fitted. Which it's very OK with me. Pics to come.

TORKER.

[OZQUAD44]

Torker
I think that you may have chosen the best 250 fourstroke out there for this conversion. Heres what the media had to say about the 2005 KX250F motor when it came out:

" On the track, the motor gives an abundance of confidence. The power hits hard off the bottom, pulls hard through a strong midrange to the top-end and revs out well before hitting the rev-limiter. This personality caters to all skill levels; it is super-rider-friendly as it offers healthy roll-on power with minimal clutch required to get the rpm up."

Of all the 250 four stokes, I think this sounds like the most capable to lug around and extra wheel. Its reported to have about 18.1 lb-ft of torque. I'm not sure how that compares to a 350X for example?

[torker]

Torker
I think that you may have chosen the best 250 fourstroke out there for this conversion. Heres what the media had to say about the 2005 KX250F motor when it came out:

" On the track, the motor gives an abundance of confidence. The power hits hard off the bottom, pulls hard through a strong midrange to the top-end and revs out well before hitting the rev-limiter. This personality caters to all skill levels; it is super-rider-friendly as it offers healthy roll-on power with minimal clutch required to get the rpm up."

Of all the 250 four stokes, I think this sounds like the most capable to lug around and extra wheel. Its reported to have about 18.1 lb-ft of torque. I'm not sure how that compares to a 350X for example?

Yes, before i bought the engine I did a ton of research and even suscribed to a few moto X mags. Then I went to my local riding spot and exchanged rides on my old ATC 250r for a YZF250, CRF250R, KTM250SX and a KX250F.
Out of all those bikes the KX250F had the best power characteristics. Good thing they were afraid of the trike, none rode it and all let me ride their bikes with total confidence, even tho I knew none of the guys. That tells you, Us, trike riders, command respect!!!
I was lucky enough to find a good, complete 2007 KX250F engine on e-bay for $815, cheap as these engine are in the $1500 range. I then bought a complete bottom end that included the kick start, titanium exhaust header and complete electronics.
The 350X motor has around 27 h.p. and 21 ft/lb of torque -vs- the KX250F 35 h.p. and 18 ft/lb. With the flywheel weight and Lexx slip-on, I read, should pick up around 1.7 h.p. and 3 ft/lb of torque (mainly due to the flywheel effect) across the rev range and also tamming the engines' explosive nature a bit, as well as, and very important, help with the stalling at slow speed / RPM of these motors. There's not much more h.p. to be found on these engines (even if you sink $1000's into them) and the reliability will decrease exponentially, specially the valves.
The 350X engine produces its power and its torque from down low and it's very broad, plus, it will last forever even if not taken care for. Unlike the 250F motors, but that is to be expected. Besides, the 350X engine is more than twice the weight. I'm hoping light weight will help enough to offset the differences a little bit. I'll put it like (to a much lesser degree) comparing a Raptor 660 -vs- a YFZ 450. They both produce great power and torque, but at very different RPM's.
I'll just have to wait and see.

TORKER.

[audioworks04]

Personally I would use the stock trx450r pipe, atleast to start with. The Pipe however is rather large and heavy, buy with the HRC endcap it will flow plenty and not be overly loud. Also it is set up kind of like a flowmaster muffler for a car is, meaning it does not use packing so you will never have to worry about water getting it or having to repack it. It is made out of stainless, so if you have to modify it much you will need a tig or build brackets to bolt to it. Me and Jason both used the stock TRX450R pipe with the HRC endcap on our 450 conversions I love the way mine looks and sounds.

[rdlsz24]

Wow they are getting 35 ponies out of that 250 four-stroke? My wife's cousin has the Suzuki version and I didn't realize it was that fast. That has to be around the same power output (or more) of my KFX 400 quad.

Rob

[250rfan]

This is a real nice project.

keep up the good work.

[torker]

Personally I would use the stock trx450r pipe, atleast to start with. The Pipe however is rather large and heavy, buy with the HRC endcap it will flow plenty and not be overly loud. Also it is set up kind of like a flowmaster muffler for a car is, meaning it does not use packing so you will never have to worry about water getting it or having to repack it. It is made out of stainless, so if you have to modify it much you will need a tig or build brackets to bolt to it. Me and Jason both used the stock TRX450R pipe with the HRC endcap on our 450 conversions I love the way mine looks and sounds.

Thanks, that's exactly the info I was looking for as I also thought about the end cap. I've found a brand new 450R exhaust, cheap. I just have to bid on it! I'm just wondering how it would work with the 250 motor?

TORKER.

[torker]

Wow they are getting 35 ponies out of that 250 four-stroke? My wife's cousin has the Suzuki version and I didn't realize it was that fast. That has to be around the same power output (or more) of my KFX 400 quad.

Rob

Yes, those are the numbers. But, I still don't know how fast, I would not talk about fast just yet. I am hopeful tho. The RMZ engine, depending on the year, was made by Kawasaki (the complete bike was, just as the KFX 400 was made by Suzuki) The KFX can be made to be pretty quick with bolt ons alone, I know from personal experience, trust me. The thing about them is that they are a bit heavy, even if they don't look like it. Very reliable too.
If it's as fast as the KFX I built 3 years ago, it will be fast, no doubt! The trike is about 130 pound lighter than the KFX 400! That should help a bit.

TORKER.

[torker]

This is a real nice project.

keep up the good work.

Thanks for the good words. I too think it will come out very good.

TORKER.

[OZQUAD44]

The trike is about 130 pound lighter than the KFX 400! That should help a bit.

TORKER.

Weight plays a big factor when you talk performance, Based on the raw data i see no reason why this rig won't smoke a 350X. I'm guessing it may even give a stock 250R a scare.

[JohnR.]

IIRC a stock 85-86 R was rated at about 30hp and I'd bet the power that 4 stroke makes is over a larger RPM band so it'll probably spank a stock R.

[torker]

I'm really hopeful it will be a good bike when done. I looks like it has better ballance and one can tell it weights a lot less when you're handling the bike and moving it around.
Today there was a lot of progress. The front, lower engine mount was done and so was the front brace by the engine mount. We did it at my friends shop. All the work we went to do is not done just yet, I'll be picking it up on monday. By then all engine mounts should be done and the radiator mod should be completed. Also the kick starter will be finalized.
I'll be posting pics then. Keep watching as I move forward with this and bring my 86' ATC 250RF, a little bit, to more modern times, with newer parts. To tell you guys I'm very, very anscious will be an understatement.
Thanks to all for the good words and encouragement I have recieved.


TORKER.

[petesatc]

This is a great build Torker!!!!can't wait to see how it turns out but is it only me who thinks this engine might not have enough torque??? the main reason the engine is so much lighter is because the crank is alot lighter .....crank weight (to a point) equals torque and HP and adding a bigger flywheel only helps a bit not the same as a bigger crank though???? the KXF 250 weights in at 231lbs and a 250R weights 291lbs thats 60lbs difference???

[factoryX]

Imo, this will probably be close to a stock R, how ever it will be ate alive by a slightly modded R. But that is not the point, I think this would be a great xc/mx bike.

[The Goat]

do you have to come in to every thread and run your mouth about a 2 stroke.



Great build Torker. I share that affinity for the new kawis. After you get it mechanically done you can revamp the suspension and so on. Should make for a fun ride for sure.

[audioworks04]

I am guessing that their will be more weight savings than just the motor. My 450 will spank my trx250r, but very hard to get a good launch, the front end just lifts and keeps lifting no matter if you shift or not you have no choice but to get out of the throttle. I see no reason why this build would have any problems beating a stock or slightly modded 250r.

[factoryX]

do you have to come in to every thread and run your mouth about a 2 stroke.

excuse me? I don't really care about your opinion and the fact that you have spent a fortune on something that a 250r will beat stock. Hell, this 250 four stroke will eat your "3 fiddy x" in any riding condition. Why is it you called me out instead of the other people that said the same thing?

I actually like this build, and it has nothing to do with 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke.

"edit"
Sorry torker.

"mod edit"
nice try but not enough. please watch it.
thank you - Louis

[OZQUAD44]

Easy Boys this is a really great thread, lets not screw it up.

Have you got some photos some more photos yet Torker?

Do you think you could do me a favour and do some quick dimension of the KX250F donk. like the overall height, overall width, the width across where the swingarm bolt goes, and the diameter of the swingarm bolt.

I'm seriously thinking about doing this to my Tecate, but I don't want to cut up the frame to do it.

[audioworks04]

I agree calm down its from how I read it he wasnt actually saying anything about a 2 stroke being better than 4. But like he said a mildly built 250r probably can beat it in drag, but trail/mx is different world. The main issue I see him having here is that the tranny on the kx is geared quite a bit higher than what you would want for the sprocket and tire size that we use on three wheelers, way larger rear sprockets on a dirt bike along with taller tires allow it to be gear quite a bit lower. But it should still be a good performer with power all over the place, mine is a little bit tricky to start moving as far as clutch control, but not horrible once you get used to it from there its a torque monster.

[JohnR.]

The larger tire diameter should counteract the larger sprocket size and vice versa. I can't wait to see this finished. It makes me want to shoehorn a 450 into my spare 350X frame.

[torker]

excuse me? I don't really give a f*ck about your opinion and the fact that you have spent a fortune on something that a 250r will beat stock. Hell, this 250 four stroke will eat your "3 fiddy x" in any riding condition. Why is it you called me out instead of the other people that said the same thing?

I actually like this build, and it has nothing to do with 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke.

"edit"
Sorry torker.

It's cool. Let's just keep our eyes on the ball, shall we.
TORKER.

[torker]

Easy Boys this is a really great thread, lets not screw it up.

Have you got some photos some more photos yet Torker?

Do you think you could do me a favour and do some quick dimension of the KX250F donk. like the overall height, overall width, the width across where the swingarm bolt goes, and the diameter of the swingarm bolt.

I'm seriously thinking about doing this to my Tecate, but I don't want to cut up the frame to do it.

I have not had a chance to pick it up yet, it's still at the shop. But work has been completed as far as engine mounts and radiators go. The swingarm bolt hole it's the same diameter as a TRI-Z, that one fits great. For the R, I has to build bushings to get the swingarm bolt to fit snugly. They were made out of stock blaster/banshee A-Arm bushings and modified accordingly. I'll be changing those at a later date from plastic to bronze. The swingarm was also modified slightly on the left side so the sprockets lined up. It was easy with a grinder and some new delrin bushings I got from ?, sorry forgot his name, but I run his swingarm bushings on all my R's. Also a Chro-Mo spacer was made on the right side of the engine, where the swingarm bolt goes thru to take up that space.
I'll get measurements when I pick the trike up. I just have to pay the guy, you know. I'll also post some pics for ya.

Well, I had to cut the frame on the left side and a different bend Cro-Mo tubbing made to let the engine drop to its right place. I have not had a Tecate in years, so I don't know how it will fit on that particular frame.

Keep looking, I should have something in the next few days. Hopefully I can sell what I have left from the Z to keep financing this build. Help me out!

TORKER.

[audioworks04]

The larger tire diameter does make up for the gearing a little. On my crf450 conversion the largest rear sprocket that I am able run while retaining the skid plate is a 39 tooth. The crf runs a 51 tooth rear sprocket, this 12 tooth difference is huge. Mine had all kinds of torque and will lift the front end in any gear, but from a stop it is hard to move with out either slipping the clutch like crazy or spinning the tires. My buddy tried to move it last time at the dunes over to my toy hauler and killed it 4 times, and he is by no means an amateur. I have no doubts that this will work, just will be alittle bit tricky on the low end of first gear. On a three wheeler the ground clearance just doesnt allow you to run a large enough sprocket on the rear. On my 450 I am running the smallest counter sprocket possible while still clearing the trx450r swingarm. This is a great project and I am sure that it will turn out amazing judging by how it has progress thus far.

[Louis Mielke]

I'm seeing some great self moderation in this thread which is appreciated but I do want to chime in here. I really don't want to go through and clean out or lock this thread because its a really great build. If you want to argue about stock to stock, bikes to bikes, engine to engines, my dads badder than your dad then please do so in chat or in the vs. forum. Strong language will not be tolerated anywhere on the board. Discussion is one thing but lets not fight like teenagers.

This message will self destruct in a few days after its sunk in. No need to leave it here permanently. Thank you everyone.

[Jason Hall]

One for sure cure for the high 1st gear blue's Is a Rekluse clutch. I wouldn't change a thing with my CRF conversion because of this clutch. I run a 14 tooth front sprocket with a 38 tooth rear & 18" tire's. It Is the smoothest performing transmission I have ever used. All who have rode these new 4 stroke's would probably agree that they CHUGGLE when going slow In first and even second gear. My 06 TRX450 does the same thing, It sounds like the clutch basket will fly through the side cover when you bog It down In any gear. With the rekluse ALL the chuggling Is Gone. The clutch engage's Exactly the same everytime, and engage's the way you set It up, light or heavy. I also use the perch adjuster for quick easy adjustment of engagement RPM. They are expensive to buy new, but they can be picked up for around 300.00 used on ebay. I put mine In about 2-1/2 years ago, and have never had to adjust It Internally, It still has the new disc's I Installed at that time. Thanks to Derrick Adams for turning me on to this Magical setup!!! Oh yeah, I have a heavy flywheel also which helps alot. The Rekluse add's rotating mass also as It's quite alot heavier than the stock clutch part's.

Nice build Torker, looks like you did your homework!!! Can't wait to hear how you like the power delivery. IMO the only downfall to these small engine's on a heavier bike Is the roll on power. These little 250's just don't have the torque, but MAN do they Rev. If your not happy with the final result, add a big bore cylinder, and your problems will be gone. I built my boy a 87 TRX with a CRF250f, and the bike Is awesome for my boy, but with me on It I have to ride It just like a 2 stroke. Keep er hemmed up and shift.

[torker]

Thanks for the comments Jason. A heavier flywheel is on its way. But I don think it will be enough. I'm aware of the limitations on these engines, but I still wanted to give it a go and see what came out of it. The Rekluse set-up has also been studied, but it will be a last resort due to it's price, although I know it will be the right answer.
I'm heavy at 190 (used to be 211!!!) but the trike has lost a good 25 pounds from the stock weight and I still have to change the stock, gold wheels for some lighter ones, I'm not sure how much, but that should reduce overall weight, but more important rotational mass and weight. It has some smaller 20" tires (look like 18") That should help. I'm doing everything my pocket allowes in order for this to come out as good as my "pockets will allow" instead of as good as it can be, which is a great difference. I'm still comitted to this project and it will be "a rider" soon.

And please, I would hate to loose this thread because of someone elses behavior. Thanks to the Mods. for understanding that I'm not at fault. I have enjoyed a lot of projects on this Great Site, that I consider myself part of and that you guys that have been here for a long time made me feel welcomed since the begining. I'm sure there are people here enjoying this project as well as I have enjoy others.
I know sometimes we can get carried away, it's only human.

Enjoy this project and thread and feel free to comment and suggest. Those are always welcome.

TORKER.

[Jason Hall]

An X-33 Durablue axle (hollow, light, less rotating mass) would help In the rear also If you could find a good one for a decent price. The 3 wheeler Is quite alot lighter than the quad I used. I'm not trying to talk you out of doing It. I think It's a great build. If your determined you will make It just what you want. Good luck and have fun :D:beer

[torker]

An X-33 Durablue axle (hollow, light, less rotating mass) would help In the rear also If you could find a good one for a decent price. The 3 wheeler Is quite alot lighter than the quad I used. I'm not trying to talk you out of doing It. I think It's a great build. If your determined you will make It just what you want. Good luck and have fun :D:beer

True that...All of it!!! We must be nuts :crazy:

TORKER.

[torker]

Ok guys, after about 2 weeks of work this is what we have so far:

Radiator mods are done. The 2 top outlets were straight and were hitting the top frame tube, they needed to be in a 45 degree angle, just loke the R's but these are much bigger. The bottom outlet that transfers radiator water to the water pump was at an angle that was very close, if no hitting, the titanium exhaust pipe, that one was cut and straightened. Last but not least, it needed a mounting plate so the rads were in its final place. It was made out of 6mm thick aluminum. I think it's overkill, but thy're done. Rads were moved as far forward as possible without the front forks hitting them at full lock. That was done in order to make as much room as I could to put the oil cooler in one side and a radiator fan on the other in the very near future. I think I have enough room now and everythings clears everything else.

http://i47.tinypic.com/qyh9gy.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/1zgw0me.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/6tejph.jpg http://i49.tinypic.com/2u4nhpj.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2hq3pnc.jpg http://i45.tinypic.com/abadl.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/4scygl.jpg http://i45.tinypic.com/2d2cal0.jpg

[torker]

And then, theres the engine mounts and frame welds. I think that the aluminum engine mounts came out good. These were made out of 4.75mm (whatever that is in inches) 6061 aluminum. We try to make them look like they were "factory made". Take a look and let me know what you think.

http://i49.tinypic.com/v8e7md.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/54uagz.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/fw0lme.jpg http://i45.tinypic.com/win0ad.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2mcit02.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/2va1agk.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2znqq2c.jpg http://i48.tinypic.com/23ma6fm.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2lbp7gx.jpg

I hope I got enough pics :lol: So, what do you think?
There's some tweeking to do, but not much as I've tryied to measure twice and cut once. Next I will tackle the most challenging part of this build: The Fuel Tank mod. I've already cut one up, just to find out plastic welding in not going to cut it. So a heat gun, patience and some more heat will do it. It's been done before...
Little by little everything has fallen into place and it's been a fun and challenging buid.

TORKER.

[Red Rider]

Torker, great build! It looks like everything is coming together nicely. Personally, I would try to find or adapt a pre-formed radiator hose to replace the one that goes around the exhaust header. It's holding it's shape now, but once it softens up from hot coolant flowing through it, not to mention the heat from the exhaust, it might just completely kink up & pinch off your coolant flow. Keep up the good work!

[audioworks04]

You might also look into a stainless steel elbow to cure the problem around the header that red rider points out. I agree that it could potentially cause a problem as heat comes into play, may also want to use some heat wrap on the header to contain the heat from it away from the coolant lines.

[torker]

I'll be looking for a cure for sure. But it's not nearly as close as an R chamber to the pump-cylinder hose, that, in most cases rubs on it. But, every little bit helps on the war against heat.
Maybe a nice elbow can be welded to the engine side and presto!!!

TORKER.

[OZQUAD44]

Torker
Coming along nicely big fella. This is my favorite build at the moment. Engine mounts look good. Once your happy with the mounts, cut the ends off your bolts that are a mismatched. You have to leave a few threads sicking out the ends so the tension on the bolt works properly, but if there are any bolts with long exposed threads that sit outside the nut you should trim them down to give it a professional look.

The radiators look great.

Do you think you could stand back a few feet so we can see the bigger picture of the motor sitting in the frame.

Cheers

[torker]

Torker
Coming along nicely big fella. This is my favorite build at the moment. Engine mounts look good. Once your happy with the mounts, cut the ends off your bolts that are a mismatched. You have to leave a few threads sicking out the ends so the tension on the bolt works properly, but if there are any bolts with long exposed threads that sit outside the nut you should trim them down to give it a professional look.

The radiators look great.



Do you think you could stand back a few feet so we can see the bigger picture of the motor sitting in the frame.

Cheers

Agreed, as soon as is out for frame painting, all the bolts will match!!!

This is as it stands right now.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2m6k51h.jpg

I'll get a few more in the next day or two.

TORKER.

[riverrat]

Looks like it belongs there, nice job!

[Billy Golightly]

Wow that does look good. NICE!

[torker]

Thanks for the good words and encouragement fellas. I think I'll be going with the Lexx slip-on. It's the only piece missing for it to do a trial run. Other than the tank mod, that I'll be playing with tomorrow.

TORKER.

[OZQUAD44]

What's up with the project Torker? Its been a week!

I went looking for a new fourstoke donk for my Tecate yesterday, and wandered across a bike shop that specializes in restoring 80's MX machines. Talk about dool..... He said he wasn't a trike man, but he had the most pristine 84 250R underway in the shop. Looked like you could eat your breakfast off it.

The reason I went there, He had some KX and KDX motors on the shelf ready to go, but after talking to the bloke for about 1/2 and hour, he's convinced me to rebuild my existing KXT Motor. So my KXT250F project may be put on the back burner for a while, so Im relying on you for my fourstroke fix big fella..... More updates please.

[torker]

Life has gotten in the way this last week. I have a list of things to do and buy for it. The silencer it's on it's way tho and it should be here in about a week or so. It's an FMF Q series pipe. Got it on E-bay for $100. I like the quiet sound of power those silencers give. It should give it about 2 H.P. and about 2-3 ft / pounds torque too, which I think will always come in handy. Lighter weight too. Here's a pic of it.

http://i42.tinypic.com/sgoj05.jpg

Can't wait for it to arrive!!!

I should have something for you guys in another week or so. This weekend the supermoto quad season kicks off, so I'm off to race and I have to work on the POS quad that I'm racing. It's the only thing I have to race. Oh well!!!
Keep watchin...

TORKER.

[1BFC]

How close is your carb to hitting the frame at the top there? It appears to be rubbing in the pictures you have posted. Probably not good long term if it has any interferance there.

Great looking work all around for sure!

[torker]

The engine came up a little bit when the engine mounts were fabricated, but it does not touches the frame by a hair. I'm going to flatten the top tube just a little bit just to give it a hair more of clearance. It's really easy, free and will do the trick. I did it with the kick starter, side and bottom tube so the engine cleared. And trust me, it did.

TORKER.

[daniel_250r]

loos amazing with an rmz 250 motor in there. may i suggest you buy an aftermarket water pump for it such as a pro circuit one. the stocker water pump was a major flaw for thses engines

[torker]

Thanks for your suggestion. I'm well aware of this limitation and an aftermarket water pump is on the "to get" list.
Pipe is already here. Will get to work on it tomorrow.

TORKER.

[daniel_250r]

btw i hate to bother you but could you possibly take a picture of one of the head/cylinder dowel pins. i found something that looks like one in the bottom of my oil bucket! i recently did the top end on my bike

[OZQUAD44]

Any updates big fella?

[Shorty]

Neeeed update!!

[torker]

Ok guys. I've been crazy busy. I will get to work on the bike the weekend after the next. This is the plan.

1. Kick starter spacer / bushing (should be ready by then)
2. install silencer (needs custom piping to conect)
3. Install clutch cable (It got here yesterday)
4. Shifter Mod (it needs to be re-shaped and extended some)
5. Install cylinder head to radiator water hose.

With this it will be ready to be started, but not ridden. Fuel petcock is leaking heavily. I still need to order the kit for this, any ideas? I know there's a post here but I have not been able to find it. Something about the TRX 250R parts fitting? If someone knows for sure (no guessing) please let me know so I can get the parts, QUICK.

I will try and get a vid of the start-up.

After that it will be tested and taken apart and some paint will be in order. I can't wait!!!!
Theres a few details here and there that also need attention. I'll document everything.

Thanks guys,
TORKER.

[Dirtcrasher]

Nice work TORKER!!

This is the wave of the future for all of us...... No more trying to make an R faster or putting cams in super heavy 350X engines and chassis!!

Just to see ALL YOU GUYS TRYING, is inspiring within itself!

I think you said that powerplant is an 07/08 based KXF. I had a bud want to stuff his 03 KXF in a 250R trike chassis and we found such poor reviews on every aspect of that particular motor.
Pretty much a self destructing model/year without any prior warning....... He sunk near 1000$ into the top end alone and the reviews on the crank and tranny were still horrific.

Lets hope that his crank doesn't grenade itself in the near future. I adjusted his valves, it sounds good, but I don't trust that 03 Kawi model......

I have my fingers crossed that the year you have is a much better design to build off of......

Great work; It's those of you that TRY (whether it fails or succeeds that inspire many of us) !!

Hope to see an update soon :beer Looking forward to it!!

Nice work! And thanks for sharing!!

[torker]

Nice work TORKER!!

This is the wave of the future for all of us...... No more trying to make an R faster or putting cams in super heavy 350X engines and chassis!!

Just to see ALL YOU GUYS TRYING, is inspiring within itself!

I think you said that powerplant is an 07/08 based KXF. I had a bud want to stuff his 03 KXF in a 250R trike chassis and we found such poor reviews on every aspect of that particular motor.
Pretty much a self destructing model/year without any prior warning....... He sunk near 1000$ into the top end alone and the reviews on the crank and tranny were still horrific.

Lets hope that his crank doesn't grenade itself in the near future. I adjusted his valves, it sounds good, but I don't trust that 03 Kawi model......

I have my fingers crossed that the year you have is a much better design to build off of......

Great work; It's those of you that TRY (whether it fails or succeeds that inspire many of us) !!

Hope to see an update soon :beer Looking forward to it!!

Nice work! And thanks for sharing!!


Thanks man, that almost sounds like a poem :lol:
I'm sorry I have not updated this like I should, a lot of work has gone into little details. The main thing for not having updated the thread is that I have no camera and I've been building a roof/garage/everything else for us who like to work on stuff ourselves and it's not finish yet, which sucks. Let's see what fathers day brings around (hopefully a digital camera). It still has some things that have to be done like installing the silencer. almost evrething else have been done. I hope to get pics of everything I have missed when it gets dissasembled for painting. I wont let you guys miss a thing. It's getting really really close to beeing completed. I can almost feel myself riding this thing. :Bounce

TORKER.

[Mendomotox]

i just read through the thread and i love it. this is a great build. keep it up!
this should be a hot machine when it is done.
you can add me to the list of eagerly waiting members for sure.

GIT 'R DONE!!!

[atcmanic350x]

any updates?

[rangstng]

sounds like it will be a great trike

[three_wheelin45]

Any updates?? this is a interesting build.

[torker]

Hi there guys. Sorry, I have not been able to be here for a while now.
I'm afraid I have very bad news. The project is cancelled this time around. I'm going thru a nasty divorce and the smart lady hit me where it hurt the most. I was able to keep 1 trike by "giving it away" before the situation got really ugly. Project 250RF was added to the assets, along with 3 quads. So the choice is to dismantle and sell all parts, from this project and other parts. I tried to hide some of the parts, but to no avail. Got a call from my lawer, that her lawer knew about "some assets" beeing hidden. I threw a frame, plastics, fuel tank and some unusable/scrap/damaged parts on the trash and she was happy about it (not knowing those were no good). I'll try and keep the frame, if I can't I'll do it all over again. That's if I ever get any money left from this mess. Getting divorced it's really expensive, even when you have no children.
If you need 250R parts, I have a bunch!!!
I'm sorry I couldn't see this one thru :(. I'm really bummed about loosing this project :( :(. I know there were a lot of guys waiting for this one. Really sorry.
But I'll rebound back...with a vengance.
I'll be posting parts for sale on the forum soon. If you need anything, please, PM me.
There are water cooled R parts and very few TRI-Z parts.

R.I.P ATC250RF (part 1)

TORKERR.

[KASEY]

MAN THAT SUX BIG.. it is to bad when they even screw up something that they really have no interest in at all,,, "i'll screw him over ,taking his trikes and toys " i can see it ,,, that just sux. to bad

[Shorty]

PM sent...............

[NINJA]

Man, that's a raw deal! Sorry to hear of your misfortunes.

[dcreel]

Sorry to hear that. Been there done that. Keep your chin up and fight for your rights. Get a lawyer with a knife in his pocket if you know what I mean...

[Billy Golightly]

Wow torker! Sorry to hear that man. Hang inthere.

[oldskool83]

divorce aint easy toker...i been there dont that. if you can work it out try 1st. good luck to ya.

[Shorty]

You get my PM TORKER?


Shorty:D

[torker]

Thanks for your words guys. Shorty, I'll get back to you.

TORKER.

[Sick200x]

Whoa...sorry to hear that Torker. I just read the whole thread, great write up, I was getting excited to see the finish, then this. What a buzz kill. Hang in there, I know divorces can get pretty nasty, you'll pull through OK. We'll call this build "postponed" for the moment, as I'm sure you'll be building again when the time is right. Best of luck to you.

[CanadianThomas]

WOW. I feel for you man. I'm just getting to the divorce stage, separated for a year. Nothing too bad though. Hang tough, we are all pulling for you dude.

[torker]

You guys are great.
Thanks.

TORKER.

[RideRed250R]

ship the crap to me ill stick it in my barn free of charge till you need it back, just pay shipping.

[bcredneck]

next time get a prenump

[84 r]

man really sorry to hear!

[sx250heath]

I am very sorry too hear that man.Keep your chin up.

[bcredneck]

what parts did you loses im shure people on this site would help you rebuild if i can get something you need its yours just pay shipping