250 ES Side Drive Case getting hot

[neposufo]

Today I drove my Big Red and was having a blast at the river. I did notice the Side Drive case was real hot to the touch, I wonder if the bearing is out? How hard is it removing the side drive case? Should I possibly rebuild with new bearings or just buy a working one from Ebay?


Thanks

[Flyingw]

It shouldnt be getting that hot Tony. Is it making any noise?

[Flyingw]

Oh, and dont be tempted to unbolt the final drive and pull it off the case. The output gear set in on that shaft and when you pull it out, all the gears fall off the shaft inside of the tranny so splitting cases isn't an option at that point. Ask me how I know..........

[neposufo]

Not anything that I noticed, It was hot enough to vaporize water when i spit on it. I will listen to it tommorow, I think it may have a whine to it. I dont know what its supposed to sound like normal. It shifts fine, runs good.

Tony

[neposufo]

So changing this out is a PAIN?

[Flyingw]

It does have oil pumped through it from the oil pump. If its getting hot then the oil supply is suspect but there really isnt a way to confirm the oil passing through the final drive other than a complete teardown. Also, like the pinion gear, it takes special tools to disassemble the final drive so I'd be looking for a replacement. If the motor is coming apart to that level, you might as well do a rebuild on it. The tranny bearings are pretty robust so I typically inspect and reinstall those but fresh gasket set, seal set, plates and shoes for both clutches, bore cylinder, fresh piston, timing chain, and lap the valves. There is a guy on ebay you can get a freshly bored cylinder and new piston for like 189.00. no exchange either. By the time you factor charges for boring, new piston, gas, and time, its easier to one stop shop for the cylinder. The rest of the stuff is readily available on ebay as well.

[neposufo]

So there is no easy way to just unbolt the side drive and swap it out I guess? I dont think the motor has many miles on it. It is just old

[neposufo]

That could explain why the oil felt hotter than normal, the bearings can create heat trasnsfer to the oil?

[Flyingw]

no easy way...... some guys have said to lay the trike on its right side and pull the final drive out but if there's a problem with the oil system, it will just trash a replacement. If assembled these trannys and if one thing moves, it won't slide right in so my answer is no, not easy.

[Flyingw]

The oil tranfer tube between the engine case and final drive is small so it would be easy for it to get blocked up with debris.

[neposufo]

I can get a used one for 50 bucks, it sounds cheap enough to maybe give it a try? Turning it on its side maybe?

[neposufo]

Is it possible to pressurise the case and attempt to blow the transfer orfice clean?

[Flyingw]

Thats your call to try it or not but know this, when you unbolt the final drive, it doesnt just lift right out. You have to put a brass drift on it and do some pounding to get it to move. It has an Oring, oil transfer tube and a alignment dowel that has an interferance fit. As it starts to move, everything inside has to remain absolutely still or your screwed.

[Flyingw]

No way of knowing if the oriface clears or not or whether thats even the problem.

[neposufo]

Okay, so if was you, you would do a Motor Rebuild? Is this something I should do or is it best left to contract out?

[Flyingw]

Before getting to anything like this, go get an inexpensive laser thermometer and ride it hard. Compare the temp of the final drive and clutch side of the motor. The temps should be pretty close but if the final drive is far hotter than the clutch side, there is a problem. Did you change the oil in the motor when you got it? There is also a filter screen on the oil return under the clutch cover on the bottom of the motor and lets not forget the paper oil filter.

[neposufo]

I might as well do a full restore, shocks and all. Powder coat, new plastics

[Flyingw]

It has been hot and humid lately. it wouldn't be unreasonable for the motor to get unusually hot including the final drive after ride.

[neposufo]

I changed the oil and paper filter. I didnt do the screen.

[Flyingw]

The screen catches big stuff but I have seen them pretty clogged up.

[neposufo]

I noticed today it ran cooler, the temps outside where 20 degrees cooler also

[Flyingw]

Lets not panic yet. Keep an eye on it noting the outside temps when you do ride it.

[neposufo]

Tommorow I will ride and listen, I need to check the oil temp also, if the orfice is clogged, than the oil in the side case will be alot hotter than the crank case oil. I have a digital thermometer that I can use to do sampling. If the oil screen is clogged, this will create a hotter crancase oil correct?

[Flyingw]

Anything restricting oil flow is bad.

[Thorpe]

Hate to be that guy, but you do have enough oil in the trike? Also, what weight of oil are you running?

[neposufo]

When I changed the oil last week I put in 10-40 Max life synthetic Blend oil for high mileage vehicles

[neposufo]

What is the normal operating temp for these motors? How can I determine without an EGT gauge?

[neposufo]

Welkl I ran it and the drive train is close to the clutch side of the case. I guess this motor just gets hot out in the 100 degree heat and trail riding with min air flow. I guess if the oil port wasnt working the drive unit would be cooler.
than the rest of the unit. I tiik an IR reading and was around 275-290 degrees on the drive and clutch side. Does this sound normal?

[Flyingw]

That does seems a bit high. Confirm the spark plug you put in it. DR8ES? Pull the plug and tell me what color is the tip. Should be brownish. A lean condition will cause a motor to run hot. What weight oil did you put in it?

[Thorpe]

Oil could be a cause of your issue... They synthetic blend doesnt have clutch friction modifiers, (typical of motorcycle/atv oils) your clutches could be slipping now, causing more heat...

[neposufo]

I put in 10-40w Synthetic blend. Maybe I should try an oil swap?

[Flyingw]

Awww crap, totally missed post 26. Good catch Thorpe. Get that synthetic blend out of there. I run Castrol MTL (Motorcycle Transmission Lube). Its designed for wet clutch motors. In leiu of that, the book specifies regular 10W-30 motor oil. Also, when checking the oil with the dip stick, do not screw in the dipstick. Insert it to the threads and pull it back out. Screwing it in will give you a false reading leaving your motor low on oil instead of full.

[neposufo]

VALVOLINE MaxLifeTM Motor Oil
10-40w synthetic blend for 75000 plus mileage cars

[Flyingw]

Yep, drain it.

[neposufo]

Okay, just bought some Valvoline ATV 10-40 4 stroke oil

[kb0nly]

I wouldn't put that "high mileage" oil in ANYTHING.. Let alone an ATV. The reason? The crap additives they put in it to help expand seals and close up some leaks, etc. It has some modifiers and other crap in it to, but its all stuff that just isn't needed regardless of miles. If it has a leak, fix it, but don't put in that fix a flat of the oil world.

I run Castrol GTX 10w-40 in my 200ES and i have put it in everything i have owned for about ten years now, its good oil. I don't run special ATV/Motorcycle oil in these 4 stroke motors, just not worth the cost. I know guys that have ATC's that have run nothing but off the shelf 10w-30 in them since they were new back in the 80's with no ill effects. Just do regular oil changes and keep it clean inside, doesn't matter what oil you use.

I would also follow the suggestion to make sure its not running lean. With hot humid weather and a poorly tuned carb you can really burn an engine up. Check the plug and if nothing else put in a new plug and take it for a nice long ride and see what the plug looks like after. Remember, brown is good! LOL

[neposufo]

Thanks for all the good advise, I changed the oil 15 min ago and ran it good. It is alot cooler...... The oil was causing it to run Hot!!!! Go figure. The plug is new and It was brown on the tips after running it 4 hours hard yesterday

[Flyingw]

Great news. keep me posted.

[neposufo]

Did the IR probe on the clutch housing cover and the side drive> I ran it for another 15 min and the cover temps are around 160 degrees. This is about 100 degrees cooler than it was reading this morning. It appears the oil did the trick. I hope I havent ruined the clutch or bearings from the heat.

[Flyingw]

I dont think you ran it long enough to mess anything up. My biggest concern is the cam and cam journals. Keep an ear on the top end for erratic tapping meaning tapping fading in and out. You might want to run it a few hours and change the oil and filter again to ensure all the synthetic is out of it.

Suprising isnt it how much of a temp differance there is with the synthetic vs straight oil. This should be a lesson for you guys when it comes to oil. Not all oil is the same. Synthetics and especially high mileage synthetic oils are not compatible with these old motors. They were designed to run on straight 10W-30 or 10W-40 motor oil so if you want to experiment with the longevity of your motor then I would suggest sticking with the factory suggested oils.

[neposufo]

It sure opened my eyes. I should of knew better. I flew R/C aircraft for 40 years and it it caused the same problem with the older motors. When I changed the oil out, it was suprisingly dirty!! for only 4 hours running time. More of a dark grey when looked at from the top in a bowl but was kinda clear when it was draining, (less debth) It may of scrubbed it pretty good or just was discolored from the old oil residue. It kinda resembled the old oil color that was in it when I bought it.It definetely is running cooler. I ran it kinda hard yesterday at the River and back roads. It was hot!!!

[kb0nly]

I would run it for a while then when its still hot do another drain and refill to help flush it out. I know oil isn't super cheap these days but i would dump the oil again and then pour in a little more fresh oil with the drain plug still out just to flush a bit more out, then refill it. Maybe after a few more rides do it again just to see if your getting any debris in the oil from the clutch being overheated, but i think your probably alright!

The biggest problem with those high mileage oils is the stuff they put in them to prevent or help with leaks. It will make rubber seals swell up. I talked to an old mechanic once who claimed you could do the same as what they do with that crap by adding some transmission fluid and some brake fluid. The extra detergents of the transmission fluid clean stuff out and the brake fluid makes the rubber seals swell up. Not kidding, he said on an old motor that wasn't worth the money to rebuild cause the car was in rough shape he would put in one quart of trans fluid, one quart of brake fluid then three quarts of oil, run it for about 10 miles and then dump it and change the filter again. I saw him do this to an old riding lawn mower, same mixture but different amounts obviously, it stopped a leak on the crankshaft seal after mowing about half his back lawn and it blew some evil smoke for a while then cleaned right up, he did another oil change and it still isn't leaking a dozen mowings later. Surely it needs some new seals but he is too cheap to rebuild it, the mower is in really rough shape anyway, surprised it even runs.

[Thorpe]

When I got my 250ES, I ran some crap oil in it when I first got it, and the clutch was already loose, but... it let it slip to the point I had to open the cases up and replace... I am a firm believer in the friction modifier additive for trikes, bikes and toys...

[Thorpe]

Okay, just bought some Valvoline ATV 10-40 4 stroke oil

Good stuff here... Have it in my ES, SX, Atc70, and XR50...