Free-wheeling hub for ATC250ES

[TheRadBaron]

Hey guys. I'm somewhat new to ATVs since I've spent most of my offroad life on dirt bikes, but I picked up an '85 250 Big Red and I'm hooked. I use it off road plenty, but it also spends a lot of time running people around at swap meets, mostly on pavement. Due to the solid read axle, it can get pretty hard to turn when on-road. It's not bad when it's just me riding it, but with one or two people on the back rack it just wants to push straight ahead. When it finally does turn, it does so with lots of tire scrubbing and squealing. It really makes it not a lot of fun to ride like this.
I figure that a free-wheeling hub on one of the wheels would fix this, allowing the wheels to differentiate while turning. Does anything like this exist? A manual locking hub like on a 4x4 truck would be swell since it could be on the trike permanently and just switched on or off for varying conditions. I'd also be happy with just a hub that freewheeled on a bearing or something that I could swap on before I took it to a meet. I'm sure that I could fabricate something that would work, but I thought I'd check here first to see if it's something that's been done before. Thanks.

[captainweezy]

I just used the search option on the top right. It came up with a ton of different ones when i typed in free wheelin hub, I dont have the time or patience to look thru alll of them. What town are you in??

[TheRadBaron]

I tried the search function before I posted as well, but I none of the threads that came up seemed to have anything to do with actual free-wheeling hubs. I'm near Champaign, out in the corn field. Wasn't there a model of Kawasaki trike that had some sort of system to unlock one of wheels so you could turn easier?

[kb0nly]

I would use a small trailer instead of a hub change. I have a small 40x49 inch trailer frame that i built into an ATV trailer that i got from Harbor Freight for $150 on sale. I have a cargo box that bolts on to it or a solid floor for other use. I have been thinking of getting some seats from the local parts yard to make a small passenger trailer! Lot safer than riding on the rack. I could even build a roll cage for the trailer.

[TheRadBaron]

A trailer really isn't practical for my swap meet purposes. I already have one that I use around the yard, but it would take up too much space on the truck and it would be a pain to maneuver through the crowds. I'm not worried of any perceived safety issue of passengers on the rack. I like to live dangerously!
I made a platform that allows me to mount the back seat out of my Geo Tracker onto the rack of the Big Red. It's like a mobile couch and a blast to ride on. It's a real hit at the meets, but I really need to get it to steer.

[tri again]

I tried the search function before I posted as well, but I none of the threads that came up seemed to have anything to do with actual free-wheeling hubs. I'm near Champaign, out in the corn field. Wasn't there a model of Kawasaki trike that had some sort of system to unlock one of wheels so you could turn easier?

I have heard that too.
Makes lots of sense.
Maybe more honda trikes would be in more parades.

ya know? an over ride clutch or free wheel(er) is fairly common in
industrial machines.
Heck, saab even had one in their car transmissions.

There's also something for tractors to keep the 3 point implement, like brush hog, from pushing the tractor
fwd when you push in the clutch...until whatever's spinning slows and stops.

I'd like an answer too.

[kb0nly]

Well no wonder you can't steer!!

If you got a seat plus passengers on the rack you got a couple problems. One your probably exceeding the weight rating of the ATC, surprised you haven't blown a tire yet or bent something. Two your throwing off the balance, too much weight in the back and you can't steer. Adding a freewheeling hub to simulate a diff won't do you much good unless you can select which wheel spins, skid steering in other words. If you had the right wheel free and wanted to turn left it won't, same as if you had the left wheel free and wanted to turn right. You would have to make both wheels selectable and be able to engage and disengage for each turn so the outside wheel of the turn gets the power.

I can understand the space concerns of a trailer, but i don't see how you can worry about maneuvering it, if they have to move for the trike they have to be out of the way for the trailer to. I pull a trailer around with mine a lot, its pretty maneuverable.

The only way you could fix this easy would be to add weight to the front to get the distribution correct and put weight on the front wheel for turning.

[TheRadBaron]

I'm not completely sure, but I don't think that you're correct about the wheels needing to be selectable to in order to turn both directions. As long as the wheels are able to turn at different speeds, I think that it will help a lot. If one wheel is freewheeling, the drive wheel shouldn't know or care which direction the trike is turning.
Again, I wouldn't stake my life on it, but I'm pretty confident.
I'm sure that I do sometimes operate the Big Red above its rated load, but I'm only about 140 and I typically have light people on the back, too. I'm telling ya, it works great except for the difficulty in steering. I also tried to add weight to the front end by having someone sit on the front rack while I drove around but it had no effect other than making more effort at the bars. I know, I know...it's unsafe. I got it. I understand and accept the risks, and so do my passengers. Please, no lectures on safety.
I really think that the problem is the locked rear axle and not weight distribution. 4x4 trucks with locked axles have the same type of problems, and weight distribution is not really a factor with them.
I need to do some searching and see what I can come up with on this Kawasaki that may or may not have had some sort of unlockable wheel mechanism. Maybe it could shed some light on this.

[tri again]

Not to derail anyone's train of thought but what we trikers do
is push limits, maximize whatever we have to work with.

It's all part of the genetic evolution of the species.

Hope everyone is having a GREAT summer.

It's over 100 degrees here for the next week.

Raging fire danger for the next couple weeks.

No one is allowed in the 'woods' for any reason.
Playing a radio in the woods wil get one thrown in jail..

No joke.

"they" say the #1 cause of wildfires is broken glass, not lit cigarettes.

Hard to believe, eh?

[kb0nly]

I understand what your saying, but i know about diff's... My other passion is Jeep's.. LOL

The main thing a diff does is allow different wheel speeds, but in a certain way. When you make a turn the outside wheel has farther to travel, so it needs to spin faster, the inside tire has a shorter path so it turns slower. The diff allows this to happen.

Now take your trike... If you put one wheel freewheeling, lets say the right wheel is free, and you make a left hand turn, you will not be able to turn unless you really have a bite on the ground with the front end and even then it probably won't, and with a lot of weight on the back and the natural offset of weight in these trikes (they are rear heavy, i put them one on a set of load sensors once to find that out for sure) the tire with the power has to be the outside tire to get it to spin faster as well as apply power to push you through the turn. If the tire on the inside of the turn is the one with the power it will push against whatever is holding it, in other words the front end, the front end would have to apply enough leverage so that inside tire can make it skid through the turn. Think of a snowmobile.. Your track just applies forward momentum, the skies turning side to side make the front edge slide one way or the other using the leverage they apply against the ground resistance, its all basic physics.

Take it from someone that grew up on a farm and drove skid loaders most of his life. If you lose the hydro on one side your stuck, whatever side still works will just push you around in circles with the working side being the outside of the turn.

[TheRadBaron]

Hmmm. Thanks for the concise and patient explanation. It's actually a rare thing to get on a lot of these forums. What you're saying does make sense. Hopefully you took my last post in the same way. That is, as a polite debate with no bad attitude or arrogance intended.
I thought that I thoroughly understood how a differential operated, but now that I'm looking at the physics of the situation based on what you described, I really see your point. I'd really still like to do an experiment and experience it for myself, though. Just to have the actual experience. I probably won't ever get around to it, though.
Thanks again, kb0nly. You're a gentleman and a scholar.

[TheRadBaron]

Well, I just looked up the Kawasaki deal and it turns out that the KLT200 actually came with a lockable differential, not an unlockable hub like I had been told. Man, what a cool idea. I wish more trikes incorporated something like that. I wonder if it would be possible to swap the KLT rear axle onto the Big Red. He he. Well, anything's possible with enough time, money, and fabrication I guess. I'm going to go do some more research on the KLT.

[MonroeMike]

The KLT200-A1, A2, A3, A4, A4A have the mode selector on the differential case.

The KLT200-C1, C2, KLT250-C1, C2, C3, P1 have the mode selector on the left hub.

One side is driven by the chain and the other side "freewheels" when unlocked, on both types.

(The KLT200-B1, KLT250-A1, A2 do not have a locking differential).

[kb0nly]

Of course i took your post that way! Glad i could offer some help.

I have seen those Kawasaki's with that, makes me think of the old snowblowers, like the Sears and a few others that had a pin you removed on one wheels hub to make it easier to turn, they have the same problem though in that when you pull that pin it will turn easier, but you end up manhandling it in the turns unless you happen to be turning the right way so the outside wheel has the power! LOL

A true diff gives you better turning/cornering, but as anyone stuck in the mud with an open diff or limited slip diff knows you get one wheel spinning and thats it. The power goes to the least resistance and that wheel will spin. The way this works in a turn though is beneficial, as the inside tire on the turn is experiencing more resistance to turning so the power goes to the least resistance which is the outside tire that can now turn faster and power you through the turn.

I have a limited slip diff in the rear axle on my jeep, eventually i plan on going with a locker so i can lock it up when i need it. The funny thing is the front axle has a limited slip also, thats how jeep built them for handling on the highway. The problem is even in 4wd you get 2wd, just one front tire and one rear tire... LOL

I would love to have a diff on a trike. I have driven other trikes, aka a motorcycle with a ford or chevy rear end on it with a diff, cornering on those is smooth and easy. I understand why Honda never put a diff in a trike though, its made for offroad, last thing you want is a spinning tire not doing anything in the mud. Would have been nice if they made a selectable rear end so you could lock or unlock it. Kawasaki at least made an effort when it comes to that!

[JGW3]

Hey guys I know this is an older post but I found this a while back. It would probably have to go on a chain drive bike but I bet you could make it work. Dont think it would hold up to off road or heavy use but if its going on something to put around the swap meet it may. Cool idea of having a diff in the back, it sure had me thinking.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_35768_35768

[Thorpe]

What if a guy just got a spare left hub, chucked it in the lathe, turned the splines down until you could slip a sleeve bearing in, over the axle splines... Presto, instant one wheel drive for the swap meets, swap the good hub back on, back to posi....

[RubberSalt]

I know the KLT200c I have is fun with that diff unlocked. ultra small turning radius. If you tilt it so 1 wheel is off the ground... that wheel gets alllll the power lol. Great for not tearing up the lawn. If it had reverse, it would have kicked Honda butt compared to the other 200s out there.

[ps2fixer]

If 1 wheel has the power and the oppsite free wheels, I don't think it would be an issue at walking speed with weight in the back. Off road in the dirt, or trying to drive fast would be a different story for sure. My cuz's little 125 honda quad had a hub strip out. He still rode it just fine for a week plus. The only problem he had was he got suck easy in mud lol, no problems stearing... I know three wheelers are a little bit different...

Anyway solution for the OP... either get the KLT machine that does what you need, or get a chain drive model, and put a lawn mower rear end in it. they have an open differental, just the mounting would be a pain.

[OZQUAD44]

Radbaron
A free wheeling hub will work fine for your application. Just because only one wheel is driving doesn't mean you wont be able to turn, has no one here ever heard of a sidecar for petes sake?? I too had a hub go on my 250 way back when, and I happily drove it around like that for some time before I managed to get a replacement hub. Steered great, traction was an issue...

You will lose traction in mud or sand, but on a hard surface you will be fine. You will need a floating hub on one axle end, which would need to be a custom build. Perhaps get the locking hub off an old 4WD and modify it to suit.

If i remember correctly the atc250es had the brake on one side of the axle, so that means your free wheeling hub will have to be at the opposite end, and that only one rear wheel will have brakes when the hub is in free wheel mode. Please be careful of the braking at speed.

Maybe you could go hi tech and get an electric sensor that locks the hub up from a remote switch or even automatically over certain speeds..... snazzy.

Or you could go to town and put a diff into it, but I suspect thats lots of $$.

[BleedRed]

http://www.harborfreight.com/heavy-duty-trailer-dolly-37510.html

Turn handle into hitch for back of trike and presto!!!!! Kind of like a hay wagon, doesn't put any weight on the towing machine.

+never mind all that gibberish, I'm an idiot. I thought a trailer was involved.+

[MidwestATC]

The klt's do have a locking diff on them but the way the axle mounts is totally different. They actually use a differential so the center mount swingarms the Honda's and most other Atv's use would not work. The Kawi's mount there axles on the outside edges. You would have to make a custom swing arm for it. It also IMO makes the axle stronger and less likely to bend.

[kaymo]

machining out a hub is not a viable option. the spinning hub would destroy the splines that are there on the axle.

one option would be to put one slick tire and one great tread tire. give you somewhat similar effect.

you could also rig a little wheel like a go kart wheel to pop one back wheel just off the ground, attached to a lever like an e brake handle.


honestly it just sounds like a good way to get hurt, you can say you dont need a safety lecture but if someone says that and then reaches for a live electrical wire im still going to say something

if you can haul a big red you could build a little folding trailer to put your couch on. then you get to spray your riders with mud too. win win