Educate me on black powder please. [Archive]

fabiodriven

10-02-2012, 05:58 PM

So I'm looking to buy a black powder gun. I can no longer own anything but "primitive arms" (story for another day), so I need a gun that requires no licensing. I do not know the first thing about black powder guns. The weapon's intended use is for home protection. I looked real quick on Cabela's website, and I saw 6 shot black powder revolvers from about $180 and up. I don't need anything really nice or fancy, as long as fires that's all I really care. I figure I'll bring it to the range to get used to using it, but after that it'll pretty much be collecting dust unless needed.

So what's a good, cheap gun?

If I leave it loaded, how long is the shot "safe" to store? In other words, does the shot "go bad" or expire after time?

This may be more of a local question, but what are the laws on carrying or transporting these weapons where there is no license required? I figure I'll keep it low-key when transporting it obviously, but I wonder if I could just carry it on me when in transport? Obviously not planning on carrying this weapon every day.

Thank you all.

El Camexican

10-02-2012, 06:22 PM

fabiodriven

10-02-2012, 06:27 PM

http://www.chuckhawks.com/leave_muzzleloader_loaded.htm

My Dad uses this stuff to get a few more pounds of venison into his freezers. It does not store well. I've never fired one, but I'm guessing if you want home protection you'd be better off with a Taser,a baseball bat or better yet a big azz dog..:beer

No tazers, I have a bat, no fawking dogs. I'm getting a black powder gun.

I may be over-reacting a little bit, but the scrappers around here are getting hungry. They get curious and they get bold.

That link was extremely helpful, thank you Mexinadian.

cochran

10-02-2012, 07:03 PM

I was just having a conversation with one of my clients(a truck driver) the other day about carrying black powder pistols through state lines.
I worked for Cabela's in the late 90s at one of their first retail stores. I sold firearms of all types during that time. I would sell countless black powder handguns to truck drivers. They then would order a kit that would essentially make the pistol able to fire cartridges. They could store this modified pistol in their rigs without a license or permit to purchase/carry. I am not up to date on the laws but I would think but found this thread online.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=456949
From what I am reading/remembering as long as the frame is not modified then it would not fall under any laws that would qualify it as a modern pistol.

cochran

10-02-2012, 07:06 PM

For home protection and without the ability to buy an actual modern day pistol buy a black powder and get the conversion.

Gearheadtom

10-02-2012, 07:52 PM

After reading this I pictured someone telling a bugular to hold on a minute while they loaded an old muzzle loading musket...

hoosierlogger

10-02-2012, 07:55 PM

It depends on the humidity level in your home as to how long the powder will remain good. The last thing you want to do is pull the gun up on an intruder and it not go off. Id recommend unloading and reloading it at least once a week if you are going to keep it lying around.

A lot of times you can get used black powder pistols pretty cheap. People buy them thinking they will shoot them a bunch and rarely take them out a second time. Probably due to the laziness of today's people, as well as the guns being more work to clean.

Scootertrash

10-02-2012, 09:17 PM

I would be very careful with the conversion and check your local laws. The gun laws I saw for your state, well, they suck (No offense intended). You need a license to transport a gun?? Unless I'm misunderstanding what I read??

I would think that if you "convert" your black powder pistol with a cylinder to fire a modern cartridge, it is no longer a primitive firearm. ;)

As far as storing it for an extended period, as hoosier said humidity has a lot to do with how long the powder will be effective. Along with that, if you are seriously considering using a weapon for self defense you should practice with it so you become effective and efficient with it. Practice sessions would empty the pistol and allow you practice and fresh rounds. ;)

sblt500r

10-02-2012, 10:28 PM

you need one of these.

i have flintlocks, well my father did. been around them all my life, but only shot 1. my father built the one below, still have one. all i know is you don't need a license to have flintlock black powder guns, but you need a license to buy black powder. so you can't hunt without a license because you need powder to shoot. my buddy hunts primitive arms and was trying to get me to go, what he told me. so if your going to load your own loads you need a license to do it.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/sblt/nocks4.jpg

ctk

10-02-2012, 11:36 PM

fabiodriven, this sounds like a a good question for tom gresham... guntalk.com He has a radio program that is aired on sunday around 3pm.

hondawasaki

10-03-2012, 12:12 AM

El Camexican

10-03-2012, 12:25 AM

How about one of these babies Flab? I'll bet you could really frick someone up if you connected with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpAJOPzKK-M

remsandpets

10-03-2012, 12:25 AM

First off, sorry to hear about your past with not being able to own a modern firearm. That just means a PFA, mental issue, or fellon. Regardless of reason. In MY opinion, stick to a nonleathal means of self-defence. Why push the issue with the law. Again, sorry but that is my opinion.

fabiodriven

10-03-2012, 08:13 AM

I would be very careful with the conversion and check your local laws. The gun laws I saw for your state, well, they suck (No offense intended). You need a license to transport a gun?? Unless I'm misunderstanding what I read??

I spoke to the local detective in charge of firearms two days ago and he said primitive firearms are OK.

You are correct about the gun laws here. You do need a license and the laws are very strict.

First off, sorry to hear about your past with not being able to own a modern firearm. That just means a PFA, mental issue, or fellon. Regardless of reason. In MY opinion, stick to a nonleathal means of self-defence. Why push the issue with the law. Again, sorry but that is my opinion.

What is a PFA?

Mental issues, yes. I am 70% disabled for PTSD after a tour with the army in Iraq in '03.

Felon, yes. Due to the local police not doing their job. Without telling the whole story, they were called by my party due to trespassers on my property the night I lost my license to carry. They drove by 3 times without stopping and the disturbance continued after they left. I dealt with the issue myself and I live with the consequences. In a state where they don't want you to own guns in the first place you can have your license yanked very easily.

Shawn, that gun is absolutely amazing and your father must have had some serious skills. I hope that weapon stays in your family for a long time.

remsandpets

10-03-2012, 08:31 AM

PFA= protection from abuse. And I'm not judging anyone. I did not want to offend either. Everyone makes mistakes, especially those in authority thinking they are acting in the public good.
But I digress, black powder is corossive, it should not be left in the bore or chamber of firearms. It will rust surfaces it is in contact with and once fired, must be cleaned. And it is not just a wipe thru like smokeless modern powder. It turns into a semi gummy mess. Btw, I hunt with black powder wepons. Flintlock .50 Cal primitive rifle.

hinddee29

10-03-2012, 09:03 AM

Have you thought about a bow or crossbow? Silent kill. Plus they will always work. I think black powder weapons would
be an over kill of power in close quarters. Plus the chance it may or may not work when you need it. If you place is that bad then fortify your perimeter as well.

El Camexican

10-03-2012, 09:17 AM

What a crock of brown smelly goo that a person can't defend their own property. It was like that in Canada for over 100 years, but recently after some guys were jailed for stopping a repeat offender and the public demanded a change. The new laws now say that you can use reasonable force, but that has yet to be defined. Texas is the best, if someone is stealing cotton from your land you can shoot them and you don't even have to use the meat like you do if you shoot a deer that is doing the same thing.:naughty:

86T3

10-03-2012, 09:38 AM

http://www.topairgun.com/
This may help. I talked to a guy in FL a couple years ago that bought a high powered air rifle because he couldn't own a gun. I'm not talking your Red Rider (You're gonna shoot your eye out!) deal, this was a serious gun. And they're completely legal to own. Another option would be to move to the Live Free Or Die state.

warlordmx

10-03-2012, 09:51 AM

Dude...I do gun shows for a career...If you get caught with that being a felon which is why you need it in the first place you are gonna really be in trouble ... Buy a gun with no paperwork from an individual and hide it ... either way even with a black powder gun you have to be licensced to load your ammo ... As far as a crossbow...you cant load it fast enough ... they make all sorts of other ( weapons ) that you can have that will save your a** in a situation. Hit me with a PM and I will lead you in the right direction

warlordmx

10-03-2012, 09:52 AM

Can even sell you a book on how to boobytrap your house for invaders ... I feel sorry for the sumbeeyotch that comes in my yard ... lol

warlordmx

10-03-2012, 11:37 AM

Paladin Press sells a book called ( How to clear your record and own a gun ) ... might be worth checking out ... I have bought books on street fighting, black ops, etc. from them in the past and have always been satisfied ... Good luck

fabiodriven

10-03-2012, 12:44 PM

Dude...I do gun shows for a career...If you get caught with that being a felon which is why you need it in the first place you are gonna really be in trouble

I am curious what you know on this subject and how reliable are your sources for saying this. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you telling me this. I just want to know what your train of thought is based on. The detective in charge of firearms licensing told me that I could own primitive weapons, but maybe you know something he doesn't? I'm going to talk to him again before I buy anything, but knowledge is power. I'd like to know as much as I can about the subject. I do not want to break any laws.

I will be PM-ing you when I have the time. Thanks.

What a crock of brown smelly goo that a person can't defend their own property.

There's a bit more to it than that in this case Canexadian. I'm not going to pretend I was 100% innocent here. It's just the entire situation could have been avoided had the police done their job correctly.

JasonB

10-03-2012, 01:37 PM

that rifle posted above is AMAZING! Good luck man, I didnt realize you were a vet too! PTSD is no joke

RIDE-RED 250r

10-03-2012, 08:56 PM

Well Fab, you are doing the right thing by looking to find out what exactly you are OK to have.

Here in NY, they are pretty strict on handguns. You cannot own or even HANDLE a handgun in NY without the CCP. Black powder handguns are in a bit of a gray area of sorts. You can buy one, own one without the CCW, heck you don't even have to go through the NICS check if I'm not mistaken. But the minute you pour powder and ram a patch and ball into the cylinder you are illegal unless you have the CCW and the pistol is on your permit.

MA and NY are pretty similar on firearms laws... Might want to check and see if it is like NY there in MA in that it is OK to own a black powder pistol, but if you actually USE it you would have to be licensed...

GUN LAWS SUCK! They get you coming and going...

hinddee29

10-03-2012, 09:33 PM

As far as a crossbow...you cant load it fast enough ...

I guess that would depend on the person wouldn't it? It is faster than reloading a muzzle loader and it could done just about as quick as dropping and inserting a new clip. Sure not a great choice for close quarters, but it's better than nothing I guess.

Chazz of Blades

10-03-2012, 09:34 PM

Texas is the best, if someone is stealing cotton from your land you can shoot them and you don't even have to use the meat like you do if you shoot a deer that is doing the same thing.:naughty:

Well, you don't HAVE to..........................Mwuahahahahaha.

And that royally sucks Fapio, high powered air rifles are one way to go, only problem is leaving them charged and ready to go, and you can't use little Co2 cartridges with the good ones either, so if worst comes you can just beat the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro out of the dude with the air tank.

badass350x

10-03-2012, 10:10 PM

If you are worried about your well being... wife, kids, etc. then buy a hand gun " black market " take care of your situation. If & when it arises, deal with the consiqueses then... JMO!!!!!!

El Camexican

10-03-2012, 11:13 PM

If & when it arises, deal with the consiqueses then... JMO!!!!!!

Yep, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

Dave Little

10-04-2012, 12:12 AM

You're in a tough spot John. This is one of numerous reasons I despise Assachusetts. I don't know what to tell you. If it were me, I'd try to find a gunsmith somewhere or better yet a machinist that could modify a Hilti gun for a single shot .308 or 40 S&W...or something similar. Not many options on the table here, just the rogue ones I like best. That blunderbus pictured in post #9 is nice, but all seven of those barrels go off at once. Gives quite a kick. That was originally designed as a naval gun, were guys on ships in close proximity would be shooting at one another and since standing on a heaving deck made aiming a pain, they figured they could increase the chances of 'reaching out and touching someone' better by adding more barrels.

Dirtcrasher

10-04-2012, 03:51 AM

Well, we both know you were trying to do the right thing for someone you cared for.

It's too bad it turned out the way it did. IMHO, if they new you did a tour in IRAQ, I'd think they'd work with you; But, I guess it's all about the numbers and "another gun off the streets". Friggin joke......

If you get this black powder thing sorted out, I want one too!! :D

plastikosmd

10-04-2012, 08:05 AM

I shoot a lot of Blackpowder 10 lbs a year or so of 1f/2f/3f an a small amt of 4f in the flinters. They are a blast. I can clean them faster than my rimfire/ centerfires and hold under 1" at 100 yards with a many of the target guns ( they are quite custom though)

Also not a blunderbuss, that is a volley gun. I do own a blunderbuss with a grenade launch sight for shooting custom slugs at a distance, it is a hoot. I would like to build a volley someday

daniel_250r

10-06-2012, 07:19 PM

not sure about your laws there but here pistols that are an odd ball caliber and antique statud require no liscence what so ever

warlordmx

10-07-2012, 11:33 PM

I sell gear to the local FBI and SWAT teams, If you tell me what state you live in I can get you a print out on EXACTLY what laws apply to your state...Either way if you are having any problems now I can get you a stun gun at cost to help you out or some law enforcement quality tear gas...Lemme know if I can help...Good luck

Jerm1179

10-08-2012, 02:50 AM

a decent cheaper"ish" muzzleloader http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product_info.php?products_id=838 ....you can get them that take percusion caps or flintlock....and they have a removable breachplug for easy cleaning and you can use powder or pellets....in my opinion powder burns better....but pellets are convenient. get a decent "speed loader" set up and it wont take to long...still a little pricey but what guns arent...good luck!

TimSr

10-08-2012, 07:49 AM

Federal law does not consider blackpowder arms to be firearms, however state laws vary widely. In MA, they probably consider a rubber band gun to be a firearm.

I shoot 4 cap and ball revolvers, all .44 caliber, which carry similar power as a .38 or 9mm. In a home with controlled temp, they will fire reliably after weeks if top quality primer caps are used, and the cylinders are dry and free of oil when loaded. Also, use the lint type plugs instead of grease after the cylinders are loaded as a chain firing preventative. They are not nearly as reliable if kept in a vehicle.

Black powder is extremely corrosive. The black power substiututes are also corrossive, but far less. Also some put out considerably less smoke, and they withstand humidity and moisture better.

I have 3 Colt Navys and one Remington, all replicas. One of the Colts was a kit gun. I prefer the Colts, but both shoot well and accurrate at 75'.

There are no kits to convert these to modern rounds, and it would be extremely unsafe to do so. The only exception I know of is that I think Ruger made a cap and ball Blackhawk to modern smokeless powder pressure specs that you could swap out the cylinder, but it because of this feature, it was a "firearm" for federal purposes.

fabiodriven

10-08-2012, 08:39 AM

Thank you all so much for such informative answers. Great group of guys as usual!

TecateDan

10-23-2012, 09:13 PM

cochran

10-23-2012, 09:32 PM

This hasnt been explored yet. If you purchase a handgun made 1898 and before it is federally considered an antique. You can find a cartridge revolver that would fit in this category.
"Gun control laws vary widely from country to country. Several nations such as Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, the UK and the United States make special exceptions in their gun laws for antique firearms. The "threshold" or "cut-off" years defining "antique" vary considerably. The threshold is pre-1898 in Canada, pre-1899 in the United States, and pre-1901 in Australia. Some countries like England exempt certain antiques but they do not set a specific threshold year."
You can find inexpensive American made cartridge revolvers like Iver Johnsons that are double action and in 32 caliber. They are all over the internet and reasonably priced. Also you could get it shipped to your house after faxing proof that you are 18 (driver's license).

fabiodriven

10-24-2012, 08:13 AM

Any of u guys suggesting non numbered guns or converted Hilti guns are way off base that is a direct go to jail if u ever use for any reason in ma. You are talking about a felon with an unregistered gun. Go to jail in MA.... Just buy one of these. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_flare I you've ever seen on fired with a flare I'd rather be shot dead than hit with one of these

I'm sure those aren't very cheap, but it does seem like an option. What do you know about the legalities of that thing Dan?

This hasnt been explored yet. If you purchase a handgun made 1898 and before it is federally considered an antique. You can find a cartridge revolver that would fit in this category.
"Gun control laws vary widely from country to country. Several nations such as Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, the UK and the United States make special exceptions in their gun laws for antique firearms. The "threshold" or "cut-off" years defining "antique" vary considerably. The threshold is pre-1898 in Canada, pre-1899 in the United States, and pre-1901 in Australia. Some countries like England exempt certain antiques but they do not set a specific threshold year."
You can find inexpensive American made cartridge revolvers like Iver Johnsons that are double action and in 32 caliber. They are all over the internet and reasonably priced. Also you could get it shipped to your house after faxing proof that you are 18 (driver's license).

That does seem like a possibility. I'll have to investigate that further. Thank you.

fabiodriven

10-24-2012, 08:47 AM

I've done a little digging on this Iver Johnson thing. What I seem to be seeing a lot of is old guns, but no specific date as to when they were manufactured. I want to make sure I am 100% legal here. Any suggestions as to where I can find something like this cochran?

RIDE-RED 250r

10-24-2012, 11:22 AM

www.gunbroker.com is one place you can do some looking around. It's basically ebay for firearms and accessories. But much like ebay, prices can tend to be inflated on Gunbroker.

The nice thing is, it's a very popular gun auction site so there is always ALOT of stuff on there to browse and window shop.