'84 Honda Big Red - Frustrated!

[RRaider95]

Hey guys, I'm really about to pull my hair out over my '84 Big Red, it's frustrating me so much.

I had problems with the fuel line and filter getting clogged when the inside of the gas tank started rusting out. I took it off, cleaned it out really well, cleaned the fuel filter, and cleared out the fuel line. The gas was flowing great. It ran for a couple of weeks, and then just quit.

I checked the fuel line, and the gas was still flowing fine. I though the carb might be clogged, so I bought a brand new one online and put it on. Still wouldn't start. I found a small crack in the intake manifold/carb mount, so I replaced that. Still no dice. Replaced the spark plug. Still dead.

When I try to start it, it sounds good, is turning over fine, and is getting good suction out of the air intake.

Any ideas on what to do next? I'm about ready to torch the thing. I'm a real fix-it kind of guy, and it annoys the heck out of me when I can't get something to work.

Thanks!

[kb0nly]

Did you check for spark while cranking it? The 84 200ES is a nightmare when it comes to ignition problems. I fought mine for a week, and i know many others on here have fought them also. The problem is usually the CDI box going bad. It uses a round connector that isn't readily available so i rewired mine to the square type connector and tossed on a cheap CDI from ebay and no problems since!

Check for spark, if you don't have spark check to see if the kill switch on the handlebars is acting up also, thats another common problem, you can run it back and forth a few times or unplug the black wire to the handlebar switch up in the headlight to rule it out. Also you can unplug the black wire from the key switch as well to rule that out.

Does your neutral light come on? A bad neutral switch will also cause this.

You also have to check the inhibitor relay on the back side of the battery box by the starter relay. I unplugged mine and made a jumper to bypass it for good cause it was always giving me issues. Its just two wires that need to be shorted there, i can tell you which two if it comes to that.

Take the CDI box off and smack it on a hard surface back side down a few times and try it again if your still not getting spark. Don't laugh thats how my CDI box was coaxed into working another day every time. Here you can find my CDI box dissection post as well as a thread on rewiring the 200ES for the cheaper CDI.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/144496-84-200ES-CDI-Box-Disection-and-Repair?highlight=cdi+dissection

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/144910-1984-200ES-CDI-Replacement-MythBusted..?highlight=mythbusted

[RRaider95]

Good idea. This may be a stupid question, but to check for a spark, do I just unscrew the spark plug and crank it?

Thanks again for the help--I have new hope!

[kb0nly]

Yes, pull the plug and ground the threads of the plug to the head then hold it there while cranking it over. I have an inline spark tester that i use, you can usually find it at a farm supply store, well stocked hardware store that sells lawnmower parts, or an auto parts store.

156289

Very handy tool to have in your disposal if you like tinkering on engines!

[RRaider95]

Thanks so much for the input. I actually feel like I'm getting somewhere now, or at least there's hope.

I went to the auto parts store today and got an inline spark tester that looks just like the one in your picture. The trike's spark plug wire won't snap onto it (since it connects to the smaller style spark plug), but I just hold it against the metal contact, which should work fine.

When I do it, I get no spark. I took off the CDI, like you suggested, and pounded it on the concrete a few times. I put it back, but still no spark. I then turned to the kill switch on the handlebars. I took it apart, and just took out the button altogether so that the kill circuit can never be completed. Still no spark.

I have no problem with the green neutral light, so I'm ruling that out.

I checked the 10a fuse next to the battery, and also found a smaller fuse nearby. Both looked okay.

On the inhibitor you speak of, is that the same thing as the voltage regulator in the manual?

Any suggestions on what I should try next? Once again, thanks so much for your help. It's very gracious of you to offer this info online for free. My kids will be very happy if I can get this working again!

[tri again]

Yeah, just don't give up.
They are fiixable and usually something simple.
Could be as simple as nipping the last tiny bit off the spark plug wire so the cap has some fresh copper to screw into.

See if you can get the search key to work.
You'll get tons of pages of info.

I had 2, and had the luxury of swapping known working parts to the non runner.

Some folks have replaced entire wire harnesses only to admit the old ones were probably ok but since thay had to go thru EVERY connection to make the swap, they mysteriously work.

GREAT machines by the way.
Worth a little frustration and you will forget the pain when you get it running.

[kb0nly]

Ok on the inline spark tester, mine will plug in, guess i never looked closely at it mine must be a bit different, but still holding it in you should have spark if its making a connection. They just posted a good point, and one of the first things i do without even thinking of it anymore. You can remove the spark plug wire from the coil and the plug cap and cut of a 1/4" of wire and put it back together, this insures a good connection.

Near the voltage regulator there is the starter relay with the heavy battery cables and a smaller relay that's the inhibitor relay. Is the electric starter working? If its turning over with the electric start then your inhibitor relay is ok, the inhibitor just prevents you from using the electric start unless its in neutral. It doesn't affect spark, i only mentioned it in my last post because i wasn't sure if you meant the starter was working.

Ok so no spark... If its cranking over then you have to troubleshoot the ignition system one piece at a time. The part to realize here is that the battery, fuses, etc, have NOTHING to do with the ignition system. The lighting/starting/charging system is totally seperate from the ignition system. You can have a bad rectifier/regulator, no battery, blown fuses, etc... It will STILL have spark. The charging system only operates the lights and charges the battery for starting with the electric start. I have pull started these with a basket case electrical system as long as the ignition system is intact.

Do you have an old school test light? Just a plain old test light that looks like a screwdriver/awl with a long clip lead coming out of it, make sure its an incandescent bulb type light and not a LED type, the LED type aren't as sensitive and generally only work on DC, we are dealing with a basic AC output here. This is a great old tool to have and it works like a charm for troubleshooting these basic ignition systems.

Start at the Stator output, there is three wires, two yellows which are the alternator output for the lighting/charging system and a Black/Red wire which is your ignition coil output. Take your test light and connect the ground lead to the negative battery terminal which is grounded to the top motor mount, this just gives you a convenient ground for it. Now unplug that Black/Red wire, its in the rubber boot that all the wiring goes into on the left side above the HI/LO/Reverse lever on the frame tube. Put the tip of the test light onto the wire coming from the engine, the male plug. Crank the engine over, you should see the test light flicker with the engine turning over, if so your stator coil is good, if not you found your problem.

If its good reconnect that wire. Unplug the connector from the CDI box, put your probe into the plug, usually i can probe them from the back, crank it again do you still have voltage at the Black/Red wire? If so good, if not then you have a problem in the wiring harness between those two points. If its good move on.. Plug the CDI box back in and back probe the plug on the Blue/Yellow wire, thats to the pulse generator behind the cover on the side of the head that says CDI on it, do you see the light pulsing on and off? If not its either a bad connection, a bad CDI unit, or a bad pickup in the pulse generator. Find the wiring that comes out of that cover and there is a blue and green wire, unplug them, clean them up a bit and reconnect, still no pulse on the light? You probably have a bad CDI unit thats not working right, but if you have a Volt/Ohm meter you can go one step further, you can set the meter to the continuity tester position so it beeps when the leads touch and disconnect the blue and green wires to the pulse generator and put the leads from the meter on those wires, now crank the engine, you should hear your meter go beep beep beep with every rotation of the pulse generator.

If you have a pulsing light on the Blue/Yellow wire then check the Black/Yellow wire, thats the output to the ignition coil, if you have a pulsing light at the CDI on that wire then check at the wire on the coil, unplug and plug it back on a few times to work the connection in case its corrosion. If you verify every connection and you see the ignition pulse at all these points i would try replacing the coil if you still don't have spark. If you lose the ignition pulse at any of these points i would replace the CDI, because as long as you have voltage from the ignition output in the stator its almost always a bad CDI unit!!! I generally just replace them before anything else and that fixes it.

If you have a volt meter but no test light, you can also check the stator output with that, set your meter for AC voltage, connect the positive/red lead of the meter to the Black/Red wire and the negative/black lead to the negative battery cable. You should see 10-30v on the stator output depending on engine speed, probably around 10v at the most when cranking with the electric start. If you have voltage output from there then again it can only be the following...

Bad pickup in the pulse generator
Bad CDI Unit
Bad Ignition Coil

There is only four parts of the ignition system. I also suggest that you open the headlight up, and find the wires from the keyswitch and the handlebar kill switch. Unplug the Black wire to BOTH. This removes both of the kill switches from the circuit just to eliminate them. If you have a volt/ohm meter you can test them to, set to continuity and find the Black and Green wires from the ignition switch, unplug them from the harness in the headlight, put one probe on the Black wire from the switch and the other on the Green wire from the switch, doesn't matter which. With the ignition switch in the off position they should be shorted and have continuity, with the switch in the on position they should be open, no continuity. Do the same with the handlebar switch, should be open in the run position, and shorted in the off/kill position.

If you rule out the switches, wiring, and the stator output, i still bet on the CDI unit being bad. Sorry for the extremely long post, but after doing this many many times on these trikes i figured it would give you some insight.

[tri again]

Beautiful job, kb.

Not sure why but after fooling with my no sparker for weeks,
I took the battery out of it to put in something else and
**aggravated, I kicked a tire, hurt my toe and pulled the rope
and the s.o.b. threw spark.

It would spark with the pull rope but not with a healthy electric spin.

Never did figure it out.

[RRaider95]

Okay, I'm taking a little bit at a time.

I started by snipping off a small bit of the end of the spark plug wire. I thought that might have done it, because there was no copper visible before. Still no spark though.

I don't have a test light, but I do have a multimeter. I connected the black lead to the negative terminal on the battery, and the red lead to the wire coming out of the stator (I think). As I cranked the starter, there was a change in voltage. So I'm thinking the stator is okay.

Will try more this weekend and will keep you up to date.

Thanks again!

[RRaider95]

Interesting thing, when I unplugged the black/red wire from the stator out of the bundle of wires, the neutral light went out. Is that normal?

[kb0nly]

Did you maybe bump the Light Green/Red wire there also? Thats the neutral switch wire. Unplugging the Black/Red wire for the ignition wouldn't affect the neutral light at all, at least it shouldn't. The neutral light is powered by the battery and the ground to the bulb is switched by the neutral switch. My guess is there is a bad connection there causing problems.

[kb0nly]

""It would spark with the pull rope but not with a healthy electric spin.""

I had one that did that also, never did totally figure out the reason, i went through every connection on the trike and the problems when away.

[RRaider95]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. The switches checked out fine. There was voltage being generated by the stator. That voltage is making its way to the CDI. However, there is no pulse on the blue/yellow wire. Furthermore, there is not any continuity whatsoever on the two leads from the pulse generator when cranking the motor.

So, I took the cover off the pulse generator, and I think I may have found the source of the problem. There was a small spring in about 8 pieces scattered throughout the housing, along with two small clips. I cleaned it out, but have no idea where it was supposed to go. Looking at the pulse generator when I try to start it, it does not turn. Only the axle in the middle of it spins freely.

We're getting closer! Any more ideas?

[tri again]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. The switches checked out fine. There was voltage being generated by the stator. That voltage is making its way to the CDI. However, there is no pulse on the blue/yellow wire. Furthermore, there is not any continuity whatsoever on the two leads from the pulse generator when cranking the motor.

So, I took the cover off the pulse generator, and I think I may have found the source of the problem. There was a small spring in about 8 pieces scattered throughout the housing, along with two small clips. I cleaned it out, but have no idea where it was supposed to go. Looking at the pulse generator when I try to start it, it does not turn. Only the axle in the middle of it spins freely.

We're getting closer! Any more ideas?

BEAUtiful!
Paydirt.
See if you can click on:

service manual

I haven't worked on one of those for a few years so better info
will be from someone other than me.

Probably wrong but the springs hold the advance plate that turns
a few degrees when you rev the engine and the springs help it return.

The pickup has ohmage of 19 or 20 as I recall and a clearance of a piece of paper.

Yeah, I better stop right there. See if you can get the search key to work or
service manual.

[RRaider95]

OK, I took the pulse generator apart and got to what I think is the spark advancer. The weights had broken off, and pieces of the weights and the springs were everywhere. I cleared those out. Just for grins, I put the pulse generator back together (minus the weights/springs), and hit the ignition. I now get spark!!

So the big question now is: what are those weights in there for, and how do I go about replacing them. I see something in the manuals about getting involved with timing, which scares the heck out of me.

[kb0nly]

The spark advancer, the piece that is held onto the camshaft with the bolt, has weights and springs that keep it at normal or advanced depending on how fast the camshaft is spinning. As the camshaft spins faster the centrifugal weights cause the advancer to turn to change the timing, as the engine speed slows down the springs pull it back to the normal position.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/POINTS-PLATE-ADVANCER-XL185S-XL200R-XR200R-ATC200X-ATC185S-79-84-CAM-80-81-82-83-/140869097824?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20cc73d960&vxp=mtr

There is an example of what i am talking about, you can see the springs and weights... Your going to need a new advancer if they broke off. I had to replace mine also. As a matter of fact i think i just picked up another spare here a week or so ago, i would have to dig through my parts boxes.

You are most likely getting spark now but with the timing off because the advancer isn't working correctly. Replace that and you should be good to go! Make sure you don't lose the little pin that sits in the camshaft that the advancer keys to, it will be a pain to find!

[RRaider95]

Once again, thanks for everything. I couldn't have done this without help.

Holy crap--$100 to $150 for a new advancer?? Do you recommend any place online for parts?

[tri again]

Once again, thanks for everything. I couldn't have done this without help.

Holy crap--$100 to $150 for a new advancer?? Do you recommend any place online for parts?

You may find a whole basket case trike for 100$.
That's what usually happens to me.
Last time I needed a gas tank, paid over 150 for the tank and 2 days later I got a whole trike with a perfect tank for 100.

Someone on here probably has one cheaper.
I'll even go look in a couple days when I get back to the farm.

84 200es advancer plate?

I wonder if they're the same as a 185?

[RRaider95]

Just found a used one on eBay for 20 bucks. Will give it a try.

[kb0nly]

Make sure you clean and lubricate all the moving parts of the advancer before installing it. I had to replace the one on my 84 200ES because the previous owner never did a thing to it maintenance wise, it was well worn and sloppy to the point that it sounded like the engine had a knock.

[RRaider95]

I hate to keep bugging you, but what would you recommend using as a lubricant?

I definitely owe you a beer next time in MN. My sister-in-law lives near Cannon Falls.

[kb0nly]

A little spray lube, the white lithium spray grease seems to work pretty good on them, i have worked one a few that were really gooped up and needed to be cleaned with brake cleaner to spray it all out, so go sparingly and lightly lube it.

I found one in my spares that i think is from a 200, so if the one you bought doesn't work out let me know. They show up on eBay all the time as well. I didn't even know they were that spendy new until you mentioned it, went over to www.dratv.com and looked, $114.95 ouch!!

Beer always welcome here.. LOL

[sammiefish]

where is this advancer located....:pics: :)

[kb0nly]

Under the cover that says CDI on it on the left side of the head.

[Howdy]

If anyone needs advancers let me know. I have sold a few to people on the forums here. And I normally beat egay's prices.
Howdy

[dnoftz]

Wow this seems to be a nightmare

[RRaider95]

She's alive!

I got the new advancer put on this past weekend, but after I did, I got no spark when using the electric starter.

I don't know what it is, but I have to pull her now to get her to start. But she purrs like a kitten.

Tomorrow, I'll get everything put back together and take her for a test spin.

Thanks everyone for all of the helpful advice. Kb0nly is a boss!

Any ideas as to why the electric start won't work?

[kb0nly]

Chances are its the same old problem these suffer from, its your CDI box, eventually it will stop sparking too. Seems like mine did the same thing, and two others on here had the same problem as me. It will randomly loose spark when using the electric start, then eventually it will randomly loose spark all together. If you have gone through all the connections, which i am pretty sure you have now troubleshooting it, the only thing left is to replace that damn CDI box.

You can get one pretty cheap, $10 or less, but you have to replace the wiring plug on the harness for the different style connector. The 84 used a round connector, every aftermarket box made are a square connector. I can give you all the details on it if needed to make the swap, there is also a thread on here that i posted with all the info for swapping the 200ES CDI box to a newer style CDI.

At least its running! If it ever looses spark suspect the CDI before anything else...

[RRaider95]

As always, kb0nly was right. Shortly after I got everything working, the spark became hit or miss again. Fortunately, I had ordered a cheap $19 CDI off of DR ATV just in case. I put the square six-pin plug on there last night, hooked it up, and it has run beautifully for the past 24 hours--even with the kids driving it around the neighborhood.

I guess I had a broken spark advancer AND a faulty CDI all along. Thanks again for the help!

[kb0nly]

Dang CDI boxes, they will drive ya nutso!! Good to hear you got it fixed up.

Number one thing i always come across on these old ATC's is weak or intermittent spark, and its almost always the dang CDI box. For some reason though i have come across a lot of advancer problems now. Mine was wallowed out and worn so bad it rattled like heck, a replacement from Howdy fixed that, but i have come across a few with broken springs and weights to. One time while out riding, thank god i had a pen in my pocket, robbed the spring from it to jerry rig the guys advancer and at least get it home.