Ohh man... Bad day for my X

[jwilz]

Alright so i started today in a great mood and went to work on my 200x. Haven't gotten all the kinks tuned into the carb quite right yet so i did a lil adjusting and hooked her up. Kicked right over. Awesome. She idled for a second then a sudden stop.. Uh oh I thought, that could be real bad. Well long story short the cam sprocket bolt got sheared off by the back of the pulse generator housing. Wtf. I knew trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro was going to smooth up to this point. After opening it up and seeing what happened i can see that the cam shaft and whole assembly can pull out a couple inches and thats why it caught. Not sure why it can pull out. And it only does it with the index mark at like 8' o'clock. This just happened so i still gotta go over it all and figure out my plan of action. I know i'm gonna have to take the valve cover off, that can be done in frame right? I'm really not trying to yank the engine again. Anyways i guess i know what i'm doing tonight. Pics below. Any help or tips are appreciated. Thanx. Shitty shitty day.

[jwilz]

Oh yea. And taking off the nuts on the head studs to take off the valve cover. I know its what i gotta do to open it up but taking the tension off the base/head gaskets kinda sux. Anyone see that being an issue?

[just ben]

well, it looks to me that the cover keeps the cam from walking but really your biggest issue is: where is the head to that bolt?I have a pretty good guess

[kb0nly]

That damn bolt head is sitting down in the left side i bet... If your lucky, and i mean damn lucky, its sitting at the bottom of the left side and didn't go further down into the case. Get the left side apart pronto and find that bolt head.

Looks to me like the bolt walked out and hit the base. Cam sprocket bolts not torqued tight enough?

The cam will have play, if you take the chain off you can pull the cam right out no need to pull the rocker cover off and the head. Just remove the other cam sprocket bolt and wiggle the sprocket forward onto the smaller shaft of the cam then get the chain off the sprocket. It helps if you take all the tension off the cam chain. I just remove the 10mm bolt from the adjuster then loosen it and push a small screwdriver down to push the tensioner all the way down and then tighten the tensioner bolt back up to keep it down. Now you can pull the camshaft out of the head to work on it.

I would remove the broken bolt, get some new bolts, clean up the back side of the CDI base and put it back together. Provided you find the head of that damn bolt!!!

[kb0nly]

Don't mess with the torque of the head studs and such... Just pull the cam. The back cam bushing/bearing is whats pinched down tight by the rocker cover, the front of the cam at the sprocket has play to rotate, i have pulled these cams no problem without touching the head and rocker cover.

[jwilz]

Well the bolt just snapped at the head, no walking or nothing. I can tell from the remainder left in the threads. And thank the trike gods it was just sitting there waiting for me in the chain cover area. And there seems to be minimal metal shards. Caught your message about the head bolts a lil late. But when i did take em off i put a clamp on the right side compressing the head down and on the left theres that locating bolt that holds it all down so all i can do is cross my fingers on that. I'm gonna pick out whatever metal shards i can, the hit it with some air, then flush oil through that part and catch it before it drains to the case. Gotta work now so I'll see how it goes later today.

[jwilz]

Yea kinda Sux that I popped the head bolts off before realizing I didn't have to. I know the head and base were air tight before so I guess I'll see how that goes. But I was taking a look again before I left for work and saw that the gasket sealer I put on the rocker cover is not there at all. Guess I used the wrong stuff? Only put a very small amount on. Didn't seem to leak at all. I was gonna use a lil bit of the copper gasket silicone crap, the orange goop I think. Wondering what u guys use.

[kb0nly]

I just use a really really fine bead of high temp silicone for the rocker cover, the red stuff. Some say black or blue is fine also, i like the extra protection of using a heat rated silicone on a air cooled motor since they can get hotter. Another guy did a really detailed rebuild of a 200 motor over on 3wheeler.org here is a picture of his rocker cover and a good example of how much RTV to use.

156345

The area you need to be the most careful of is around the back cam bushing, if it squeezes into the cam bushing it can block the oil hole or get into the inside of the cam and block the oil holes in the cam.

It's weird that it would have done that, the chain if tensioned properly wouldn't let the cam walk out that far, along with the oil seal on the CDI base is the size of the small diameter of the shaft so it can't walk forward too far. I think that bolt backed out and got hit and it sheared off, but its also possible the bolt just failed and cracked and broke off, overtorqued is easily possible with these bolts.

[shortline10]

Hondabond or yamabond is the correct sealant for the rocker cover. Silicone / rtv will clog oil passages and kill a motor.

[kb0nly]

Hondabond ain't nothing but fancy silicone...

I have done a few of these over the years, one that i did about 15 years ago is still running fine. You will NOT clog any oil passages if you do it right. As that picture shows a thin bead being careful of the cam bushing area and your ok. The main thing is don't let any squeeze into the area of the cam bushing, and also at the front of the cam don't get too much around those head stud bosses that it can squeeze into the cam journal of the head. I like to torque them down then inspect with a flashlight, if it looks good then let it cure overnight at minimum before running it. The people that kill them with silicone either apply TOO much or they use it before the silicone has cured which causes it to dissolve into the oil and migrate around the head and get into something.

I have seen motors that were literally rebuilt with nothing but silicone and a head gasket, didn't leak and didn't have any issues, its all in how you take care to do it. If you wanna be picky, use Permatex Ultra Gray, its what all the shops around here use on both Honda powersports and Honda automobiles that call for Hondabond. Most of the mechanics i know will swear at you when you mention Hondabond, and i will to. The crap is like concrete when it cures, its so hard you literally have to chip the crap off. When i pulled the rocker cover on my 200ES it took a lot of beating to get it to pop off, and then a lot of scraping and buffing to clean up the surfaces. A little high temp RTV and its good to go, if i have to pull it off again a scotchbrite pad will clean it right up now.

I don't put much stock in it... For the record, Hondabond is only better for areas like this because if you use a crap load of it it will get so hard, like cement, that it can't migrate, but if you use the right amount in the first place you can use any good quality silicone.

[shortline10]

uuummm OK use your silicone then and make sure you use that flashlight also :lol:
BTW its not fancy silicone .
I just didnt want the new guy to burn up his motor with slicone .......
Didnt mean to step on your tender toes .



Hondabond ain't nothing but fancy silicone...

I have done a few of these over the years, one that i did about 15 years ago is still running fine. You will NOT clog any oil passages if you do it right. As that picture shows a thin bead being careful of the cam bushing area and your ok. The main thing is don't let any squeeze into the area of the cam bushing, and also at the front of the cam don't get too much around those head stud bosses that it can squeeze into the cam journal of the head. I like to torque them down then inspect with a flashlight, if it looks good then let it cure overnight at minimum before running it. The people that kill them with silicone either apply TOO much or they use it before the silicone has cured which causes it to dissolve into the oil and migrate around the head and get into something.

I have seen motors that were literally rebuilt with nothing but silicone and a head gasket, didn't leak and didn't have any issues, its all in how you take care to do it. If you wanna be picky, use Permatex Ultra Gray, its what all the shops around here use on both Honda powersports and Honda automobiles that call for Hondabond. Most of the mechanics i know will swear at you when you mention Hondabond, and i will to. The crap is like concrete when it cures, its so hard you literally have to chip the crap off. When i pulled the rocker cover on my 200ES it took a lot of beating to get it to pop off, and then a lot of scraping and buffing to clean up the surfaces. A little high temp RTV and its good to go, if i have to pull it off again a scotchbrite pad will clean it right up now.

I don't put much stock in it... For the record, Hondabond is only better for areas like this because if you use a crap load of it it will get so hard, like cement, that it can't migrate, but if you use the right amount in the first place you can use any good quality silicone.

[JasonB]

FIGHT!

that sucks man, good luck getting everything safely back together! nothing sucks like having a new motor fail before you even get to enjoy it.

[jwilz]

I think when I torqued the bolt on the head snapped but held on n I didn't notice. Yea I used a torque wrench. I think I got the high heat rtv, and maybe permatex high tack n another permatex. I'm aware of the small amount as to not clog trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro. My uncle owned a auto shop n said the same thing to me basically some high heat silicone n don't goop it on and clog trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro. Thanx for the help n pics. Gonna get at it soon as I get done work. I'll be sure to let you know how it goes

[Mosh]

RTV is 3 bucks a tube....Honda-Yamabond is 6.95 a tube...Just sayin...I would rather spend the extra 4 bucks and use the right stuff. Whoever suggested RTV where Hondabond is the factory application, you do that on a 2 stroke and you are gonna be damn miserable when you split the cases again because of an air leak.

You can use dishsoap to wash your new truck too, but would you chance scratching your finish on your new truck to save 5 dollars?

[jwilz]

It's not the price. The closest shop where I can grab that is like an hour away. Auto parts store is 5 mins. Sorry guys should've figured a question like this would start a war. Lol. I know everyone's got their own opinions n that all I was trying to see. "What u use and what kinda results ya get"! But seriously thanx for all the help I'm really not clueless. I just always second guess myself. Lol

[Mosh]

It's not the price. The closest shop where I can grab that is like an hour away. Auto parts store is 5 mins. Sorry guys should've figured a question like this would start a war. Lol. I know everyone's got their own opinions n that all I was trying to see. "What u use and what kinda results ya get"! But seriously thanx for all the help I'm really not clueless. I just always second guess myself. Lol no war. If you go to parts store, tell them you need anaerobic sealer for aluminum. It is designed for your application. It will be a jelly like substance that is red in color.

[kb0nly]

No hurt toes here... Not trying to start a fight either. Just saying i find it sickening that people are so stuck on this crap. Hondabond... blah blah blah. I hear that so much its like i block the word from my mind... LOL

I can't get Hondabond ANYWHERE near me. The local auto shops all use Permatex Ultra Gray when its called for because they can't get it without some extra work also. I asked an actual Honda dealer for it once, they looked at me like i smoke crack. I asked them again, the guy said why would you want that we just use this, and handed me a tube of Permatex.

I have done enough of this stuff that i know how to do it, and i don't loose any sleep worrying about the RTV killing the motor. About the only place i need sealer on these anyway is the rocker cover and you use it sparingly and clean everything. I like to wipe the mating surfaces down with prep-solv before application. When i clean the surfaces prior to assembly i use an assortment of 3m prep pads, scotchbrite pads do a good job and wont remove much if any metal if you use the right grit and pressure.

If you wanna use Hondabond by all means fellers, but i know i don't need to spend $15 on a $3 job... Last time i priced Hondabond it wasn't $7 a tube as your suggesting. I swear though, i am going to get a tube of the elusive Hondabond and do some side by side testing with Permatex and show everyone with pictures what the real deal is. Hondabond is nothing more than a high temp silicone liquid sealant, its right there in the factory MSDS for it, a quick google search turned it up. Of course you can't get the exact formulation data as its protected, but do you honestly think Honda makes it? I wouldn't doubt one of the top sealant makers does for them. The only thing i have noticed differently is that HB has less of an acid smell to it, like a acid free sensor safe RTV, and it dries harder, more of a modifier in it to cure it harder. Not a mystery glue that its made out to be... LOL

You go your way, i go mine i think is the old saying... :-)

Edit: Patent and branding searches on a few websites i use for this turned up the following.... 3Bond is the company name that makes Hondabond, its the same formulation as their TB1104 except a dye is added to make it black, TB1104 is gray. There mystery solved. Its just a flexible synthetic silicone rubber sealant.... Not much different than Permatex except for the name and the price! LOL

[shortline10]

How are them toes feeling :lol: you know I love ya 3 wheel ham buddy. But we all have are own opinion.

[kb0nly]

Dropped a can of shaving cream on them in the shower, so not too good, dang kids soap was in the way and i knocked it over... OUCH... LOL

[jwilz]

So i picked, blew, and flushed out all the metal shards to the point of darn near obsessive and over doing it last night. Pretty sure i got it all. The motor kicked off the split second the bolt broke and caught in the sprocket so luckily the metals didnt see much running time to get dispersed too much. Got it all back together. The high heat RTV worked fine, like i figured it would. I always try to be 100% sure before doing anything i'm not completely familiar with. Good pic Kbonly, thanx. I was up pretty late last night when i put the rock/cov. back on so I'll prob try n wait until tomorrow to start her back up and give the RTV enough time to cure. Figure after i run her a lil bit I'll drain the oil to inspect for metal. Still not sure how it happened, either bolt walked or head was snapped and just hanging on when i installed originally. I dunno, the remainder of the shaft of the bolt measured up with the other sprocket bolt as to look like it couldn't have walked. Just by looking at the back of the sprocket and seeing how both bolts come to sit in the end of the threads. Not that it would need to walk much the clearance there is definitely minimal. Maybe it was sabotaged.... Maybe my rm 125 got jealous of all the attention the trikes been getting.......

[kb0nly]

LOL good to hear...

I was thinking of getting two new flange head bolts, the serrated type that are like a built in lockwasher i forget what they are called, to replace the camshaft sprocket bolts. But i suppose a regular bolt and some loctite might work as well for security sake. Those bolts seem awful soft too.

[shortline10]

Only the factory bolts will work at the cam sprocket , a flanged bolt will hit the cam cover , yes the tolerances are that close .


LOL good to hear...

I was thinking of getting two new flange head bolts, the serrated type that are like a built in lockwasher i forget what they are called, to replace the camshaft sprocket bolts. But i suppose a regular bolt and some loctite might work as well for security sake. Those bolts seem awful soft too.

[jwilz]

u can file it to be more low profile. It's what i had to do with the one i replaced after it exploded.

[kb0nly]

Hmm... I can get some low profile metric flange bolts. Time to break out the digital caliper and do some investigating.

[jwilz]

Alright..... So after letting the RTV cure and putting it all back together i went to kick her over. A few kicks like it took before the other mishap and it went to turn over. I felt the kicker push back pretty hard and the motor didnt turn over. ????? I didn't do anything that would have changed the kicker. And she started up before. It now did this push back thing a couple times before i gave up. Each time it seemed like it wanted to start but didn;t i guess cus of this??? Idk I'm at a loss. I really really REALLY don;t want to find out i have to split the cases and fix the kicker. Now i did feel a lil bit of a pushback a couple times before i did the whole cam bolt thing and she was turning over then so i didn't put much mind into it. Maybe some more kicks it would have started . Maybe the lil pushback is normal for these things???? Idk. Please help