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swampthang
12-13-2012, 01:18 AM
Well it finally looks like Illinois is going to get its concealed carry law. They Have 180 days to set the rules out. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/court-strikes-illinois-concealed-carry-law-17934651 I guess I better start shopping around for a handgun. I've never owned one, I always used shotguns and rifles for hunting and never seen the use for a handgun if you couldn't take it with you. For self defense at home I just rely on the same shotguns I take hunting. IMO theres no better weapon for self defense then a shotgun so I'm thinking for a pistol about the Tauras Judge. The only thing I don't like about it is the lack of a safety button. I know you have to pull the hammer back but still things happen and it could accidently get cocked back. Anybody have a Judge??

kb0nly
12-13-2012, 02:07 AM
Interesting development... I agree with your assessment of a shotgun for home defense. 99.999% of the time all you got to do is rack in a shell and whoever is bothering you is gone with the wind, everyone knows the sound of a shotgun getting ready.

But if the law will allow i see nothing wrong with carrying.

bkm
12-13-2012, 04:56 AM
Imo a judge is not a good ccw gun. I know a lot of people like .380 autos and personally I hate them. I have seen all different brands, some hi-dollar, jam with all different ammo. I know some will say they have never had a problem and this is just my opinion and nothing else. A lot of guys I work with carry a .380 and I would say that 3 out of 6 have had problems on the range. One was a hi-dollar sig.

Personaly I think the best ccw gun for the entry level handgun person is a .38+p or a .357 airweight hammerless revolver and here is why. The weapon is to be used to save your life or the life of another and you get nothing for cool points or pecker compensation points. Most Police Officers I have worked with freeze up on the range if they have a gun jam, what do you think the average Joe who goes to the range once a year will do when his .380 fails to feed. With a wheel gun if you pull the trigger and it goes "click" then all you have to do is pull it again and it will go "bang". They are small and will fit nicely inside a front pocket.

I carry a glock 27 .40 and it is a little big sometimes, but I love it. It has never had one failure since new and I've put thousands of rounds through it. Its a great winter gun when you wear heavy clothes, but I will be getting a .38 for the summer when I wear shorts and maybe a .45 compact Glock just because. I've carried the Glock .40 for 7 years now and its time to switch them up.

matgod
12-13-2012, 05:40 AM
Hi guys couldn't help but read this thread and compare it to the gunlaws here in Australia, here were only allowed single action rifles, i.e bolt action, and max of 5 rounds pump action shotguns. All semi automatic rifles, pistols are illegal to the general public. Fully auto are illegal as well OBV. Me being an avid hunter/sport shooter finds this very frustrating. Mainly because i think shooting weapons is alot of fun and with the right education they shouldn't have to be outlawd, without going into to much detail it takes roughly 3 months to get a high powered rifle from start to finish here, process involves various Gun safe inspection via police officer 28 day cooling off period and a test to make sure your compliant with gun saftey, and a heap of paper work. It amazes me that in some states in America your allowed to carry a concealed weapon, mainly because i think if people did that here, everybody would live in fear and never come out of there houses. For some reason everyone here thinks guns are evil and are only designed to kill people, which IMO is totally wrong. If i got my gun out of my safe in time to shoot someone who stole my trike for example, and injured/killed them i would go to jail/gaol for murder or manslaughter and the theif probably wouldnt serve a day behind bars. So in other words i envy your leanent gun laws, and give you a small insight into what the justice system in like here.

TimSr
12-13-2012, 08:43 AM
Imo a judge is not a good ccw gun. I know a lot of people like .380 autos and personally I hate them. I have seen all different brands, some hi-dollar, jam with all different ammo. I know some will say they have never had a problem and this is just my opinion and nothing else. A lot of guys I work with carry a .380 and I would say that 3 out of 6 have had problems on the range. One was a hi-dollar sig.

Personaly I think the best ccw gun for the entry level handgun person is a .38+p or a .357 airweight hammerless revolver and here is why. The weapon is to be used to save your life or the life of another and you get nothing for cool points or pecker compensation points. Most Police Officers I have worked with freeze up on the range if they have a gun jam, what do you think the average Joe who goes to the range once a year will do when his .380 fails to feed. With a wheel gun if you pull the trigger and it goes "click" then all you have to do is pull it again and it will go "bang". They are small and will fit nicely inside a front pocket.

I carry a glock 27 .40 and it is a little big sometimes, but I love it. It has never had one failure since new and I've put thousands of rounds through it. Its a great winter gun when you wear heavy clothes, but I will be getting a .38 for the summer when I wear shorts and maybe a .45 compact Glock just because. I've carried the Glock .40 for 7 years now and its time to switch them up.


I pretty much agree with all you said. The Judge is a great very short range house gun, but way too big for CCW. .380 aka "9mm short" carries less energy than a .32 ACP, with insufficient stopping power. .38 is bullistically nearly identical to 9mm with much better bullet selection available. When your life is on the line, and the situation is intense, the last thing you want to think about is whether the safety is on, whether there is a round chambered, and how hard you have to squeeze the trigger for the first round. Even seasoned experts can get caught up fumbling in the complicated mechanics and unnatural thumb safety action on a semi-auto in a heated situation. With a double action revolver, you simply pull the trigger. I've carried a 9mm, a .380, and a five shot .38 snubbie, and the latter was by far my final choice for carry. Very small, very simple, and sufficient energy. A longer barrel makes a better house gun, which I prefr on a .357 which also shoots .38 spl. rounds which are essentially ".357 shorts".

If you are worried by the lack of a "safety" on a revolver, you need to get one and become familiar with it, and you will quickly realize why they are not necessary, and the guns are much safer for beginner pistoleros because they are not complicated.

rjs89ia
12-13-2012, 09:33 AM
I myself carry a gen 4 glock 22 .40 cal its a full frame gun kinda big but still able to conceal only safety is the trigger gaurd and i never carry with a round chambered just for added safety. i've signed my gf and myself up for ccw classes so i've still got a few things to learn about the laws. Being in arizona we have a right to carry law so there is no need for a ccw aslong as your in the state. I'm also in the process of purchasing a ruger sp101 .357mag for my gf so she can carry as well.

bkm
12-13-2012, 09:53 AM
I myself carry a gen 4 glock 22 .40 cal its a full frame gun kinda big but still able to conceal only safety is the trigger gaurd and i never carry with a round chambered just for added safety. i've signed my gf and myself up for ccw classes so i've still got a few things to learn about the laws. Being in arizona we have a right to carry law so there is no need for a ccw aslong as your in the state. I'm also in the process of purchasing a ruger sp101 .357mag for my gf so she can carry as well.I hope you are never in a situation were your life or the life of a loved one depends on you pulling your weapon, racking the slide to chamber a round, acquiring your target, and putting a lethal round down range before the bad guy pulls his gun and fires. An unloaded gun has about as much use as a hammer in that situation. I'm not trying to harp on you but you need to get comfortable with carrying the gun ready to work or don't bother carrying one at all. If your CCW teacher suggested this you should seek services else where.

Scootertrash
12-13-2012, 10:17 AM
A website called the Box O' Truth covers just about any gun related myth there is out there, along with testing different shooting scenarios and new weapons, including using the Taurus as a self defense weapon:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

And a second test:
http://http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm

You have to remember: Any projectile you send down range you are responsible for. When some of your pellets miss your intended target where do they go? What if they hit an innocent bystander? A child? It doesn't matter if you were protecting yourself or not, if you injure or kill and innocent bystander, you are screwed. AND you've just made people who conceal carry look like lead slinging idiots, because that's what the media will plaster all over the news.

Self defense ammo is designed to do maximum damage to stop your attacker without passing thru the target, you don't just use the cheap target ammo for self defense. When you are shooting to protect yourself you shoot to kill, not wound. COM (Center of Mass/ chest) is your target, not a leg to wound them so you can call the cops, or to shoot them in the arm to drop their gun.

Handgun shooting is a completely different animal than shooting a rifle. Some people never get the hang of shooting a pistol, and for the majority of people it takes a fair amount of practice to become a consistently good shot. A 10 inch paper plate covers your chest. It's a nice cheap target for practicing ;)
Can you put all of your rounds into a 10 inch paper plate at 21 feet (7 yards)? Can you unholster your pistol and put 3 rounds into that plate quickly AND safely?

Practice, practice, and more practice. You need to develop the muscle memory that allows you do to what you need to without barely thinking about it.

Swampthing- I have a hard time seeing the hammer get "accidentally" cocked on a pistol. I've been around all types of firearms for my whole life and have never heard of such a thing. Along with that is the fact that a large majority of holsters have a strap that goes over the hammer to help keep the pistol in the holster and would prevent the hammer from being accidentally cocked. The Judge is a DA or Double Action pistol, you do not have to cock the hammer before you pull the trigger, you just pull the trigger.


Before you spend the money on a handgun, shoot some of your friends and relatives guns to see what feels comfortable. Lots of shooting ranges will have guns you can rent to try out before you buy.

My parents were NRA pistol instructors for years, and recommend revolvers for beginners and women for the same reason BKM did. They are simple and basically fool proof. I don't think I can ever remember having a centerfire handgun, or rifle round for that matter, fail to fire but I'm sure it does happen rarely.

BKM- Sounds like some of your LEO buddies need to practice their tap and rack drills. ;)

If your buddies are having trouble with their .380's they need to diagnose why. Not all guns like all ammo. Are they just having problems with hollow point and self defense ammo or do they malfunction with FMJ ammo also? Do they have quality magazines (what most people incorrectly call "clips")? Cheap magazines cause alot of malfunction problems. When was the last time the springs were replaced? Springs do wear out. Are the guns clean?

My family, friends and myself have a large range of handguns from WWII to present and I can't remember having any type of malfunction issues with any of them. That's not to say that there haven't been any, just that there aren't enough to remember, and if there were any they were easily corrected.

bkm
12-13-2012, 11:09 AM
Good info Scoot. The .380's that they issues with were a Kel-Tec, Ruger LCP, and a Sig Sauer. None of them liked hollow points and the Ruger had issues with all ammo. The Sig was sent back and the feed ramp was polished and seemed to work OK after that. The others were sold and I have no idea what ever happened to them. My last department that I just left about 60-70% of the people working there had no business carrying a weapon. Its sad, scary, but the truth.

My new department is very efficient and professional. We will have a range day practicing missfire drills and weapon clearing, weak hand shooting, ect. It gets old tedious and methodical, but its the training you need to save your life. Standing in place and shoot at a piece of paper will only help you so much. Its like you said muscle memory is your best friend.

Escanabajosh
12-13-2012, 11:18 AM
The pizza place right down the road from my fiances work just got robbed at gun point and then yesterday her work (subway) was broken into and the safe drilled out,not only at the her store but the second one in town also. purse grabbings,B&E's,auto theft......all this stuff in a small town that never had stuff like this happen,pills are getting outta hand and thats the only way people can buy 5-8 pills a day that cost $10 per pill.

Her birthday is around the corner so she's getting the ccw class and for her wedding gift I'm getting her a S&W 642, .38 special. Well thats what I would like for her to get but we are going to check out a few and see what she likes the best.

swampthang
12-13-2012, 11:52 AM
Lots of good reading info here guys and I thank you for the help so far. :beer I know it would be hard for it to get accidently cocked and I've had quite a few single shot shotguns growing up and always was afraid of that happening hunting but it takes quite abit of force to pull it back and then you would have to accidently pull the trigger too so very slim chances of that happening.

I just thought the Judge would be a good choice because of the shotgun pattern. I figure if I was to NEED a handgun for protection it would prolly be used in somekind of close range carjacking type senerio or robbery senerio. IDK what would be the best for that kind of situation? As for the high stress and fumbling with the gun I can see simplicity helping out but the safety button doesnt really bother me I always put my shotguns and rifles back on safety right after I shoot so its almost like second nature to flip it before fireing. opinions?

bkm
12-13-2012, 12:02 PM
Swamp, trust me when I say this. Everything you have experienced and think will come as second nature while hunting will have no bearing when someone is trying to kill you or a family member. That deer isn't shooting back at you and while the rush of adrenaline going through your veins while looking through the scope at Bambi might feel like nothing else you can compare it to. This is nothing compared to knowing that your life could possibly end at any second.

You need to start with the K.I.S.S method at first (keep it simple stupid). Tactics don't come into play while in the deer stand, but they do on the street. Keep the two separate and prepare accordingly.

swampthang
12-13-2012, 12:14 PM
2 nights ago I was laying in bed about 11:30 I hear a loud and crappy vehicle start up and take of imediatly. I live out in the sticks and the only place close to me is my neighbors farm which has gotten robbed before but had camerars and alarms now. I didnt hear alarms go off so I started to thing Maybe they tryed to steal something from me. I know Christmas time is close and people are stealing like crazy. I might be 6' 3" 220lb but I'm the only person living around here for miles So I got up to check the situation out. First I had to put my pants on because you dont want to get in a shoot out in your undies then had to grab my mag lite which was beside the bed then grab the Mossberg which was in the gun cabinet beside my bed then go have a look around. If someone would have broke into the door of my house I would have had a hard time defending myself if I had to do all that crap. I need to streemline the process. I need a light attatchment on my shoty and be willing to fight in my undies:lol: By the way I didnt see anything of mine stolen I don't know what the hell was going on.

MRSOUND
12-13-2012, 12:34 PM
I'm not trying to harp on you but you need to get comfortable with carrying the gun ready to work or don't bother carrying one at all.
I agree 100% with this bkm which is why even though I have my CCP I have only carried it once. I have yet to get that warm and fuzzy when handling my pistols. As scootertrash said practice practice practice is what I haven't done yet. Rifle/shotgun another story. I bought (2) pistols after I got my permit, a Kel-Tec 9mm and a Highpoint 40acp. ANyone who knows guns know these are the low end if not the bottom of price range fro pistols. The Kel-Tec will fit in my back pocket with only a small portion of the butt showing. That being said I have trouble controlling it due to the shortness of the butt. no room to wrap my little finger around and just feels awkward. You can get a clip extension but defeats the "pocket" purpose then. It is double action and I seem to always shoot low with it. Im thinking due to the long draw on the trigger I'm pulling everything back and dropping? The 40 I got to throw under the seat of the truck when I was still dj-ing. Went into some shady establishments to set up thru unlight back alley entrances. Figured I didn't need anything pretty for that. That thing is heavy!
As far as home protection? I've always heard revolver from the people who know their guns. And a laser grip is icing on the cake

tri again
12-13-2012, 12:48 PM
Lots of good reading info here guys and I thank you for the help so far. :beer I know it would be hard for it to get accidently cocked and I've had quite a few single shot shotguns growing up and always was afraid of that happening hunting but it takes quite abit of force to pull it back and then you would have to accidently pull the trigger too so very slim chances of that happening.

I just thought the Judge would be a good choice because of the shotgun pattern. I figure if I was to NEED a handgun for protection it would prolly be used in somekind of close range carjacking type senerio or robbery senerio. IDK what would be the best for that kind of situation? As for the high stress and fumbling with the gun I can see simplicity helping out but the safety button doesnt really bother me I always put my shotguns and rifles back on safety right after I shoot so its almost like second nature to flip it before fireing. opinions?

Shotshell pattern?

This is probably wrong but I like my 5 shot ladysmith .38.
I put a 38 shotshell in the first position, followed by 3 factory loads, and the 'hammer' is always on an empty cylinder.
NEVER use reloads. They are considered 'premeditated' even if grandpa loaded them 30 years ago.

I was showing a neighbor why it's important to have an empty chamber and just popped the hammer back 1/4 inch to imitate catching on a tree branch and the s.o.b. fired...but I knew it would.
I (we've) all fixed stupid little things so I have trouble trusting a 'safety'.
Newer Revolvers are not supposed to let the hammer through the frame without the trigger back but that is also not fool proof.

Also, for me, the first shot lights the room, hence the first round is a 38/357 shotshell. Don't need to fumble for a flashlight.

Don't really want a roof leak for no reason but it's under the pillow, if it drops on the floor, it's on an empty chamber and if my daughter comes home from college to surprise me, we may have a peppered ceiling but no roof leak.

It boils down to what is safest and what works for you.

As far as muscle memory, it's like learning a little song on a piano.

Difficult and awkward at frst but do it 50 times and you can do it with your eyes closed.

If someone wanted to steal stuff?
I'd tell them to take the TV too.
I have insurance.

If I heard my daughter screaming and some tatooface was dragging her out the bedroom window?
Different story.
Remember, only life threats, not things or $ in my book.

rjs89ia
12-13-2012, 01:02 PM
I understand about the draw time and not having a round chambered but I carry my gun in a full view no hassle quick release holster. I practice day in and day out removing and actioning . If someone feels the need to get violent I'll give them a run for there money and trust me I feel no sympathy or remorse so hesitation isn't a problem. I havent taken the ccw class yet so the teacher has nothing to do with how I carry my weapon. Plus I dont go out often so if somebody wants to battle in walmart while I'm grocery shopping then they're just stupid lol.

Scootertrash
12-13-2012, 01:08 PM
Here is a target to use for practice. It will help you to diagnose some of the mistakes people make when shooting a handgun. These targets can't solve all of the issues people have when shooting handguns, but they help. Having someone who has more experience than you in handgunning watch you can also help diagnose problem. Always remember to start out slow. Speed will come naturally as you practice:

Right hand shooters:
http://www.hsoi.com/resources/correction_chart.gif

Left hand shooters:
http://www.hsoi.com/resources/correction_chart-lefthanded.gif

Here is a vid from Todd Jarret on how to properly hold a pistol. One warning: DO NOT hold a revolver with any part of your hand near the gap between the front of the cylinder and frame!!

Pay particular attention to trigger finger placement and sight picture ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

Scootertrash
12-13-2012, 01:37 PM
I understand about the draw time and not having a round chambered but I carry my gun in a full view no hassle quick release holster. I practice day in and day out removing and actioning . If someone feels the need to get violent I'll give them a run for there money and trust me I feel no sympathy or remorse so hesitation isn't a problem. I havent taken the ccw class yet so the teacher has nothing to do with how I carry my weapon. Plus I dont go out often so if somebody wants to battle in walmart while I'm grocery shopping then they're just stupid lol.

And if the bad guy already has his gun out? And you only have a second to pull your pistol and defend yourself if he gets distracted? I guarantee you will not have time to rack the slide to chamber a round before he is aware of what you are doing.

Why are you afraid to carry with a round chambered? If you don't trust your weapon and it's safety, you shouldn't be using it, let alone carrying in public. Do police carry their weapons without a round in the chamber? Do soldiers?

Why should you be any different? The only time you should need to pull your weapon is to defend yourself. That said, whatever safety mechanism you have on your pistol should be sufficiently safe, particularly while your pistol is holstered. Not to mention the various mechanical safeties on firearms have been in use for 100 plus years very successfully. If someone tells you that "It just went off. The safety was on." They are full of crap.

What's the number one rule of firearm safety? KEEP YOUR BOOGER HOOK OFF OF THE BANG SWITCH!!! Or keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to shoot. That means your finger is the most important firearm safety available to you. Guns don't just go off by themselves, someone has to pull the trigger.

Well, actually it's not number one. The rules of gun safety follow from this mindset. There are many variations, and one of them is the Four Rules introduced by Colonel Jeff Cooper, which are:

All guns are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

—Jeff Cooper

If you follow these 4 rules you should never have a problem with the safety on a firearm.

briano
12-13-2012, 08:22 PM
I never owned a pistol until I took my CPL class almost 2 years ago, now I have three. I have a North American Arms .22, a Taurus .38 poly protector and a Taurus .380. I never leave the house without that little .22 in my pocket, at first I just wanted my CPL so it's much easier to buy a pistol and I can take it with me fishing. Now I take one of the pistols all the time, there are getting to be more and more drug related problems around my small town. There are nutt jobs everywhere, and I want to be able to protect my family.

If anyone is looking for a small carry gun the North American Arms .22's are the smallest revolvers available. They have it in magnum also.

rjs89ia
12-14-2012, 02:18 AM
idk where this being afraid talk came from but thats definately not the case. maybe it'd be safer if we all carried our guns in our hands with our fingers on the trigger. then the bad guy wouldnt have a chance right. just so you guys can stop worrying about me i racked a round in the chamber so you can have peace of mind the odds of me ever having to use that round are slim to none but maybe someday i might just get use it on some idiot. now back to that illinois ccw think we've carried on to long about my life, its a good thing they're actually gonna get something going over there so people have some right to bare arms. not sure how thats all gonna work out for chicago they've got all sorts of trouble up that way, a lot of that bs was making its way down in to iowa while i was still there sure it still is. a lot shooting violence involving chicago natives was happening in a city just north of my hometown.

Slingblade
12-14-2012, 02:20 AM
I have a S&W 5906 9mm. It's a full stainless gun and with the double stacked clip it's really heavy compared to the 8 shot alloys, but I love the way it feels and shoots, and having 16 rounds is nice.
I seldom carry it on me, but it's always in the console or under the seat.

I bought my wife a .38 special Taurus in stainless. As mentioned, simplicity is the key for someone unfamiliar with handguns. Double action revolver= Point and Shoot.

It has always been a rule in my house, My pistols are loaded and chambered, at all times. Always.

The thing you must do is know your weapon, I've tried to teach my wife to feel the difference in shooting in double action vs single so she would be comfortable in a point and shoot life saving situation.

Secondly, Ammunition. Don't load a gun with the purpose of defending yourself with cheap target loads. I picked a bullet up out of a cardboard box that we were target shooting with the .38. Penetration through one side of a box won't do the job. When my guns are on standby, they've got hollow point, hydrashock rounds. If I'm ever in that situation, I don't want bullets bouncing off, I want them sucking organs through the exit hole.

Thorpe
12-16-2012, 01:25 AM
I carry a Ruger LC9 for the times when my full size Smith .40 is too bulky... And god forbid you come in my house uninvited, I have a Remington 870 Super Magnum 12 gauge shorty you wouldn't want to meet.... Have had my ccw for 7 years now, and agree with Scoot 110%, practice lots.

CI250SX
12-25-2012, 04:30 PM
Alot of excellent points here but...........If you are involved in a what you think is a "justified" shooting in public defending someone other than yourself, do you have the resources and funds to defend yourself in court? I too live in Illinois and I do carry a gun for a living so I am all for the CCW Law to take effect. Illinois has alot of loose cannons who think that they will be above the law when the Conceal Carry Laws come into effect. It takes that one person to screw it up for everyone else who wants to legally get their permit to carry. The extensive background checks, the long courses that they WILL have to go through, the time at the range to qualify with the weapon that you want to carry. Let alone paying a fee to protect yourself with your gun cause you have a CCW Permit. We even have FOID (Firearms Owner IDentification Cards) that have to be carried to purchase ammo and even guns. Going back to the "justified" shooting in public. You could be handcuffed, taken to jail and booked on charges. Even though it was a good act on your part. They (Illinois Lawmakers) have a long road ahead of them and they will screw it up like everything else they do every day. We will see it but the 180 days will pass before it happens.

These are just points the were not stressed in any of the other posts here.

Practice...practice...practice and remember when you pull the gun out of it's holster you better be ready to pull the trigger and face the consequences with it, cause it may not hit it's mark that you intended it ti hit!