Old S&W revolver, new to me.

[fabiodriven]

So I just bought an old S&W .32 revolver (or Iver Johnson, one of the many question marks floating around in my head) and I need to learn a lot of things about it.

The gun will sit a lot of the time. It's just going to be used as a home security thing and ideally it will never be called into service. I have spent A LOT of time on the computer trying to research this old gun and find out what kind of rounds I need to buy for it.

The gun was made in 1896. It is a break-top revolver and it does have a hammer (not hammerless).

From the research I have been doing, a popular answer to "Can I fire modern .32 ammunition in this handgun?" is "No, you cannot." However, for every time I see people answering "No, you can't", I see other people saying "Yes, you can". Very often, the ones who say "You can" follow that up with claims of firing modern ammo through their .32 with no issues.

SO, I have made up my mind based on what I've read that I am going to use the mildest modern .32 ammo I can find. By the way, these guns were originally designed for black powder rounds which is why modern smokeless powder is not recommended.

My next question is this- What ammo can I buy for this gun? Almost everything I read claimed the 1896 S&W .32 revolver as taking "S&W long" ammunition. Then I read an article that states it takes "S&W regular" or "short" ammo. WTF? Which one is it? The internet can be a wealth of knowledge, but it can also be a baffling mess of misinformation.

The long and short of it is this- This gun will get MINIMAL usage and I'm sure a very mild modern round will be all I need. I need to buy ammunition now, so what can I buy? I've seen "S&W long" cartridges for sale as well as ".32 auto". Will the ".32 auto" ammunition work? I saw some ".32 auto" that was only like 71 or 73 grain, or something like that. All the "S&W long" I've seen has been at least 98 grain. That sounds way too high to me.

Thanks guys.

[El Camexican]

If you don't mind I'll pass your post on to a friend of mine that might be able to answer your questions.

[HuffieVA]

It could possibly be .32 rimfire, my brother has an old rifle that is that caliber, unfortunately the ammo is nearly extinct, do you have a picture of the firing pin mechanism?

.32 Auto is a rimless cartridge and will not work in a revolver without retainer clips to hold the shells in place (like the revolvers that are chambered for .45ACP)

[jays375]

I have a 32 S&W and it shoots plain old 32 S&W ammo out of it.Little tough to find sometimes.I know where there is some.Pm me your cell and I can text you some pics if you like.Of gun and ammo.

[plastikosmd]

Had one blow out the side of the cylinder when I was younger and more stupid. Not sure if it was pressure or a timing issue( more likely.) Just be careful or let DC fire the first 6 rounds!

[Scootertrash]

Fab,
Pics would be a huge help. Post a couple of pics or email me a couple and I'll post your ammo question on one of the gun forums I frequent. I should be able to find an answer for ya. If one of the pics could the gap between the cylinder and the rear of the frame by the hammer so I can see where the firing pin on the hammer is located in relation to the cylinder would be a big help. AAlso try to include any markings on the pistol.

Like Huffie said, it's very possible that your pistol may be .32 rimfire. Since it was originally designed for black powder rounds, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that anyone who actually knows what they are talking about will tell you that it's not safe to shoot modern cartridges out of that pistol. The pressures developed by modern powders are more than what that gun was designed for. Just because it's not safe doesn't mean that it can't be done and won't work, it just depends on if the shooter wants to take the risk and the responsibility for what happens. I've been around firearms since I was in diapers (obviously I didn't handle them then, but you get the idea.....) My Dad worked at Federal Cartridge for 45 years and has been reloading as long as I can remember, My guess is he is going to say don't do it.

One other option, if is a centerfire cartridge instead of rimfire. You could probably find a company or someone to reload some cartridges in black powder for you, although it may not be cheap. ;)

[El Camexican]

If you don't mind I'll pass your post on to a friend of mine that might be able to answer your questions.

Not sure if it will help, but here is what he said:

To be honest I'm not sure, as I'm not overly familiar with that caliber or that revolver. Black powder makes very low pressure. But in saying that, the .32 in almost any incarnation will be a low pressure cartridge with smokeless powder. The .32 was never a high velocity round. As for the cartridge itself is there any more info on the barrel, like S&W L? A BP pistol made in 1895 should be made of fairly modern materials and therefore should be fairly strong. The big thing that I would look at is the lock up of the frame. If it's fairly solid with very little slop, I'd probably chance firing it. If it's loose, I'd hang hit on the wall. The other thing would be to carefully check out the cylinder and barrel for bulges and cracks. I would use an inside ball gauge to actually measure the inside of the cylinder. Oh yeah, check the cylinder for lock up as well. By that, I mean, close the gun up and try rotating the cylinder. Again, there should be very little play. There is a casting material called Cerrosafe that you can buy from Brownells. you could make a chamber cast of the cylinders and send them off to some gunsmith or carefully measure them yourself. As for the cartridge itself you might be able to use any one of the three. The big thing to look for is that the rim of the cartridge (it will be a rimmed cartridge) can in no way enter the cylinder or is too large or thick to not allow the cylinder to rotate easily. The diameter should fit snugly but smoothly with almost no side to side play. As for length it probably doesn't matter. Like shooting shorter .38's in a .357, 44 Special in a .44 mag. or .22 shorts or longs in a LR chamber. Just make sure the bullet doesn't extend past the end of the cylinder. A good gunsmith should be able to tell by the cerrosafe casts what the actual caliber it might be. You could also try looking up the maximum cartridge lengths and then measure the length of the cylinder. Should give you a pretty good idea of the cartridge. I would look for ammo that used lead bullets as well, as that always denotes a low pressure/velocity cartridge. The safest would be to look up the black powder load, and handload. With this course of action, do not fire indoors without a lot of ventilation. With your metal connections you could also think of sonic testing or magnafluxing the cylinder and barrel. If the cylinder, barrel, cylinder lock up and frame lock check out OK and you're still apprehensive about firing it out of your hand, get an 8 or 10 inch vice, clamp in said pistol attach some device with long extension to pull the trigger. Stand well back and BANG

[fabiodriven]

Awesome replies from all and I can't thank you guys enough. The gun will not physically be in my hands for a couple of days still, but I'll post pics and more info as soon as I can. Thank you all again!

[TimSr]

So I just bought an old S&W .32 revolver (or Iver Johnson, one of the many question marks floating around in my head) and I need to learn a lot of things about it.

The gun will sit a lot of the time. It's just going to be used as a home security thing and ideally it will never be called into service. I have spent A LOT of time on the computer trying to research this old gun and find out what kind of rounds I need to buy for it.

The gun was made in 1896. It is a break-top revolver and it does have a hammer (not hammerless).

From the research I have been doing, a popular answer to "Can I fire modern .32 ammunition in this handgun?" is "No, you cannot." However, for every time I see people answering "No, you can't", I see other people saying "Yes, you can". Very often, the ones who say "You can" follow that up with claims of firing modern ammo through their .32 with no issues.

SO, I have made up my mind based on what I've read that I am going to use the mildest modern .32 ammo I can find. By the way, these guns were originally designed for black powder rounds which is why modern smokeless powder is not recommended.

My next question is this- What ammo can I buy for this gun? Almost everything I read claimed the 1896 S&W .32 revolver as taking "S&W long" ammunition. Then I read an article that states it takes "S&W regular" or "short" ammo. WTF? Which one is it? The internet can be a wealth of knowledge, but it can also be a baffling mess of misinformation.

The long and short of it is this- This gun will get MINIMAL usage and I'm sure a very mild modern round will be all I need. I need to buy ammunition now, so what can I buy? I've seen "S&W long" cartridges for sale as well as ".32 auto". Will the ".32 auto" ammunition work? I saw some ".32 auto" that was only like 71 or 73 grain, or something like that. All the "S&W long" I've seen has been at least 98 grain. That sounds way too high to me.

Thanks guys.

The .32 S&W cartridge was developed in 1878. The S&W Long cartridge was developed in 1896 and a lot of Iver Johnson revolvers were chambered for this new cartridge. There was also a .32 Colt and Long Colt availoable at the time, same bullet, but slighter smaller diameter case, and not nearly as common. They will fit in the .32 S&W chamber and fire, but are very innaccurate, and brass cases will often split. You can't fit the .32 S&W in a .32 Colt chmaber. Somebody also mentioned a.32 rimfire, but not many of those around. To make matters even more confusing, when Colt chambered revolvers for the .32 SW, which was extremely popular as a police service weapon, they called it .32 Colt New Police because they didn't want to acknowlegde it is a SW cartridge. As with most "upgraded" cartridges, you can safely fire the short in the long verison, but its very unsafe to reverse that even though many old shorts will sometimes chamber longer cartridges. My Dad has an old .32 revolver, and ignorantly bought .32 ACP rounds, actually got them chambered, and fired some, could not figure out why he couldn't hit anything, gave the ammo away and later learned of the danger. Had it been a break open revolver, it could have been a disaster. .32 ACP has MUCH HIGHER pressure standards than the .32 revolver cartridges, and is extremely dangerous to fire in those weapons that you manage to get it in. I'm not aware of retainer clips for .32 ACP, but if you managed to get some, they should only be used in MODERN revolvers chambered for .32 S&W.

Grain is a unit of weight measurement, and on a box of ammo, it refers to the bullet weight. It has nothing to do with the powder charge, or the pressure the round will generate. Revolver loads typically use heavier bullets than auto versions of the same caliber. If a heavier bullets require lesser powder charges to produce the same pressures. Max pressures for each caliber are based on an industry standard.

As for your gun, before ever firing any round in it, have it checked by a real gunsmith who knows what he is doing! .32 S & W was so popular during its heyday that tons of budget revolvers were produced for it of varying quality, and many were never safe to shoot, even when they were NEW. Especially be careful of the break open type, as they were of the weakest construction. If yours is in fact an Iver johnson, it would have been of better quality than most. The gunsmith can you if its safe to shoot modern ammo.

Many black powder cartridges were changed to smokeless power, and the big plus with smokeless is that it
generates less pressure than black power for similar bullistics, and is not corrosive. The greatest danger of it is that most modern ammo is loaded for modern guns with current industry pressure standards, that can be dangerous in older guns. Often, many factory cartridges with a popular following of old firearms will be kept at lower pressures because of this danger. For example, handloading manuals will list much heavier charges for. .45 Long Colt that is specific to Ruger or Thompson Contender that is not safe to shoot in an old .45LC.

I hope this helps. Just remember, if you can't jet a carb over the internet, nobody can determine exactly what you have, what to shoot in it, and whether its safe over teh internet. Take it to a real gunsmith.

[fabiodriven]

OK gents, I finally have the gun in my possession. Sorry for the delay and thank you all for the answers you've already given me.

So I dropped the gun off at a gunsmith today and the verdict is out on whether or not this is a viable piece to fire. Three different employees of the gun shop looked at it and they were all very impressed with the condition it is in. They all agreed they wouldn't hesitate to fire it and one of them said it should fire regular smokeless rounds with no problem. None of them were the gunsmith though, and his blessing is the one I'm after.

One of the guys was guessing that the gun may be more in the teens rather than 1896, which will pork me if he's right. I need an antique and 1915 isn't going to cut it. Time will tell. For now, here she is!

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r275/fabiodriven/IMG_20130105_093446_zps4a065b23.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r275/fabiodriven/IMG_20130105_093542_zpsb025173a.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r275/fabiodriven/IMG_20130105_093511_zpsd07904f3.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r275/fabiodriven/IMG_20130105_093552_zps111f1df6.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r275/fabiodriven/IMG_20130105_093604_zpsccedec53.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r275/fabiodriven/IMG_20130105_103254_zps119e6daa.jpg

[Scootertrash]

Looks like a Harrington and Richardson Premier in .32 Smith and Wesson:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=324410773

More info here:
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=53444



H&R PREMER FIRST MODEL SMALL FRAME TOP BREAK
(BLACK POWDER)-------1895-1904
Small fame double action top break revolver with double top post barrel latch; calibers and cylinder capacity, 22 rimfire-7 rounds, 32 centerfire-5 rounds; Free wheeling cylinder (no automatic cylinder stop); standard finish Nickel with case harden hammer and barrel latch; standard barrel length 3 inches, with 4, 5 and 6 inches available as optional; features a scaled down version of the new frame and double action mechanism introduced in 1890 on the Auto-Ejecting Second Model, does not have caliber marking on left
NO CALIBER MARKINGS ON LEFT SIDE OF BARREL MANUFACTURED FOR BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE PRESSURES
First Variation, patent dates 10-4-87, 5-14-89, 2-23-92, serial number range 01*-15,000 (estimate)--------------------------1895-April 1896
Second Variation, patent dates 10-4-87, 5-14-89, 4-2-95, 4-7-96, serial number range 15,000*-20,000* (estimate)------------May 1896
Third Variation, patent dates 10-4-87, 4-2-95, 4-7-96, serial number range 20,000* to 100,000* (estimate)---------------------1897-1898
Fourth Variation, automatic cylinder stop same patent dates as 3rd variation several different serial number series that may have letter codes---1899-1903
Fifth Variation use different font in barrel markings and may have an A letter code in the serial number---------------------------------1904 -only
VALUE: 100%=$285 60%=$75 Add 10% premium for blue finish; 20% premium 4”, 5” or 6” barrel; 20% premium for 22 rimfire caliber

if this revolver has an automatic cylinder stop it is a fourth variation (1899-1903. if the cylinder is free wheeling it is a third variation (1897-1898)


Verify with your gunsmith, but it looks like you should be good to go: The federal government has declared any firearm manufactured before january 1, 1899 an antique and any firearm manufactured after december 31, 1898 a modern firearm.

[fabiodriven]

Thanks for all the info Scooter, but I may be up shite creek. My gun does have the automatic cylinder stop.

[plastikosmd]

First, cute cat.
If u are stuck, don't take a bath on it. I will give u what u gave via ffl