Tri-z overheating help!!!

[oile]

What did I forget to check? Replaced radiator cap, flushed radiator, installed new water pump, set timing to specs in manual with dial indicator, changed cylinder head and head gasket, ran with no thermostat also tried running with a different thermostat and still overheating within a 10 min ride time. Pushes coolant out of overflow when overheating.

Could the cylinder jug be having issues?

P.S.
Running 30/1 oil ratio

[Just-Tri-It]

Sometimes if there is too much water it will blow out the excess. Does the red light come on also to indicate overheating or just coolant coming out overflow tube. After it over heats is there still coolant in the bottle under the seat?



What did I forget to check? Replaced radiator cap, flushed radiator, installed new water pump, set timing to specs in manual with dial indicator, changed cylinder head and head gasket, ran with no thermostat also tried running with a different thermostat and still overheating within a 10 min ride time. Pushes coolant out of overflow when overheating.

Could the cylinder jug be having issues?

P.S.
Running 30/1 oil ratio

[MTS]

Rad fins in good shape not bent and full off mud? Hoses routed correctly? i dont run an overflow bottle and rarely see it pop the cap..sumthin sounds funky.

[oile]

yes the light comes on.Also I was thinking about it, since i just bought this one, I'm going out to check the jets in the carb to see what they are. Maybe the other owner changed things on it.

[Just-Tri-It]

Does it have the oem carb? You can check it against the oem jets if so. They should not be smaller. Check the color of the end of the plug and see if its sorta dark or light colored.
That would cause it to run hot. Too lean. Also make sure the water pump is good and not slipping on the shaft which is a common problem.

yes the light comes on.Also I was thinking about it, since i just bought this one, I'm going out to check the jets in the carb to see what they are. Maybe the other owner changed things on it.

[oile]

a few of the fins are bent over but i didn't think it was enough to mess with it. also no mud that i can see.

[oile]

just put a brand new pump and seal in it.

[oile]

haven't checked the carb yet. maybe thats all the problem is.

[Just-Tri-It]

Assuming its good check the jets and you may need to run with out a thermo for a bit. I think some guys run with out one without problems. Just got to keep eliminating potential causes to you find it. Make sure all of the vent tubes are clear and don't have dirt or bugs hid inside.
just put a brand new pump and seal in it.

[oile]

Would the crank seal do this? No oil visible on the stator side when i had the cover off to set timing

[Just-Tri-It]

I don't know. I believe that would cause loss of some of the compression but not sure if it would cause it to overheat.
Would the crank seal do this? No oil visible on the stator side when i had the cover off to set timing

[oile]

i'm going to check the carb now.

[MTS]

is the spark plug white,grey,brown, or black? dose it idle fine, crisp throttle when you nail it, or doggy trying to catch up? :confused:

[oile]

ok just checked the main jet, its a 470 and i checked my other tri-z's and they all have 470 jets in them also. MTS its doggy, trying to catch up but sometimes it runs great. but then sometimes it surges on idle up and down then can take it for another spin then it will idle fine. haven't checked the plug yet.

[MTS]

Check your intake for cracks and a good seal on your boost bottle tube, make sure all your motor mounts are tight also..a moving engine wrecks havoic on the intake system of a tri z.., sounds like a air leak somewhere to me.

[oile]

just pulled the plug it's a dark rust looking on the side and the very tip is very dark brown but not black.

[oile]

ok i will try that thanks for your input.

[badass350x]

your plug is going to tell you alot,make sure you dont have any crimped fuel lines or water lines ,and dont forget your fuel pump make sure its in good shape as well!

[badass350x]

just pulled the plug it's a dark rust looking on the side and the very tip is very dark brown but not black. you pulled the plug When?? after you ran it at wide open?

[MTS]

Whatcha runnin for coolant and mix...?

[oile]

when say fuel pump it has had issue there you can go thru all the gears hard on 5th it will fall on its face then you let off the gas for a few seconds it picks back up but i never noticed any problems with it cruiising around

[oile]

on the spark plug i just pulled it out when it was in garage no shutting it down when running. and for coolant its a 50/50 mix green coolant.

[badass350x]

do you have alot of smoke coming out of the pipe? alot of leaking coming out of the cylinder to pipe?

[badass350x]

warm the bike up and do a plug chop at WOT, check the plug see what its reading..

[MTS]

Got a compression reading on that z?

[oile]

yeah my other tri's don't smoke like this one. just thought maybe the previous owner put to much oil in the fuel mix in it. i was wondering if the crank seal was bad but never had this problem with any of my other tri's

[badass350x]

Just for shits and giggles throw one of your other z's fuel pumps on this one and see what it does...

[oile]

170 on compression test

[oile]

i will change the pump tomorrow nothing to lose.

[MTS]

170 is a bit to the higher side, whatcha runnin for fuel..? suppose it could be the carb starving for fuel, i have never messed with a stock Z carb..everyone i have had in my hands had the stocker thrown out long ago. Still bit odd to overheat that quick if everything is in check, Your mag side basegasket dry or coverd in oil??

[oile]

it is moist around the base gasket. 92octane fuel. do you think it might be sucking air around the base gasket?

[oile]

I have a 38pwk i thought about putting on it but then i was thinking the other Tri-z;s don't have this issue

[TimSr]

Im having a little trouble following this thread and the recommended fixes. Are we still talking about blowing coolant, or has this been solved and we are talking about other problems?

The coolant system is very simple, and easy to troubleshoot on the TriZ. Its blows coolant for only two reasons. Either its overheating, or cylinder compression is leaking into the cooling system through the head gasket. Overheating is caused 95% of the time by no coolant flow, 5% for other reasons.

1. Check flow. This is easy with no thermostat. Open the radiator cap, and start the bike, and look in there. If you have no flow, you may have made an error in reassembly, such as losing the little pin that holds the plastic gear from spinning on the shaft. Every thermostat I've ever seen fail, fails stuck open, which will not cause you to overheat. I haven't run one in years. The only place they are helpful is in very cold whether in which you can't reach stable operating temp easily, which I've never had, even in Ohio winter riding.

2. If you have good flow, put the cap back on, and you need to determine whether its actually overheating, or blowing coolant due to compression leaking into coolant system. If its actual overheating it will take much longer to get hot enough to blow, and when it does, its more steam than coolant coming out. It will continue blowing steam, even when just idling. There are a number of things that can be addressed, and I won't begin to go into those things until a diagnosis brings it to this point, because its not very often the case.

3. If it starts spitting collant after just after just a little bit of warmup, with little steam, and seems to spit large bursts each time you rev, you are most likely leaking cylinder compression through the head gasket into the cooling ports. This is fairly common with TriZs'. The heads are softer, and tend to warp easier than Hondas, and the head torque specs are usually inadequate. I think they recommend 22lbs, and I use about 26lb, same as Honda. Also, the metal OEM type head gaskets are much more prone to leakage. The Cometic/Wiseco fiber type are far better sealing on the triZ.




Base gasket leaks are common, from warped jubs with dog eared corners. I have yet to see one noticeably affect the way it runs. I have a jug at home that has a crack 5/4 of the way around the reed housing, and found it only with visual inspection. The TriZ ran flawlessly.

Fuel pumps can be checked simply by poulling the gas line off the carb, and kicking it over. If it sqirts each time to kick, its good. They never marginally fail. thery either work, or they don't. If you have insufficient fuel delivery, is in the float and float needle setup, and is usually character ized by either gas running out the bowl overflow, or sudden cuttoff during extended acceleration. It rarely causes any issues of how it runs in between the extremes.

One other note, is if you are jetted too lean, you can melt your piston without ever "overheating" your machine. Jetting rarely has anything to do with overheating a liquid cooled machine.

[badass350x]

In fact the pump diaphragm will leak while running filling the crank case with gas from the pulse line causing all kinds of problems..

[oile]

TimSr this is what i have done to try to fix this over heating problem. I installed a new water pump and seal installed a different head and a new head gasket but it was the all metal head gasket removed the thermostat flushed the cooling system checked for flow in radiator cleaned the outside of radiator to make sure no mud was in it checked timing with dial indicator to spec in service manual and still no luck.

[fabiodriven]

Thank Christ Tim Sr. finally replied. Man, you guys are nuts grasping at straws here.


TimSr this is what i have done to try to fix this over heating problem. I installed a new water pump and seal installed a different head and a new head gasket but it was the all metal head gasket removed the thermostat flushed the cooling system checked for flow in radiator cleaned the outside of radiator to make sure no mud was in it checked timing with dial indicator to spec in service manual and still no luck.

Re-read what Tim told you to do. There is no way it could be made any easier. He told you what to do and the cause of every defect it could be. The answers are all there.

And to the guys suggesting fuel pumps and jetting :crazy:, you guys are nuts. Like Tim said, you'll melt the piston before the bike will overheat from that.

[oile]

i really think its a over heating problem cause i used a head gasket leak detector tool its designed to check leaks between combustion chamber and cooling system in watercooled engines. so basically im trying to figure out what is making it overheat and it steaming coolant out at idle

[fabiodriven]

Please, please, please, read again what Tim said and just do it. You're asking for help, he's pointing you in the right direction.

Did you watch for water flow as suggested?

[MTS]

Thank Christ Tim Sr. finally replied. Man, you guys are nuts grasping at straws here.



Re-read what Tim told you to do. There is no way it could be made any easier. He told you what to do and the cause of every defect it could be. The answers are all there.

And to the guys suggesting fuel pumps and jetting :crazy:, you guys are nuts. Like Tim said, you'll melt the piston before the bike will overheat from that.
So when did asking questions become insulting? I have had overheating issues with My triz to the point it blew an o-ring in the head, yea sure trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro happens, was it lean? yes, did it melt a piston? no, it got a bit tight but it was caught in time. Like tim said 95% of the time overheating is caused by no-flow, 5% "other reasons". Tims advice is a good start, not aguring that. I suppose we just did not put it all in one nice neat tidy post. I would however appreciate not being called nuts and pulling straws over a few simple suggestions of things to check when trying to diagnosise a problem over the internet with a machine 3000 miles away, ya dig? :beer

[badass350x]

Yeah we are nuts, but yet we have some of the sickest z's there is to be found and they run even better!!! But yeah don't worry about us guys that are nuts because that's about what I am! Disregard what I have said an don't check into anything I mentioned because I'm NUTS.....

[Mosh]

Tim sr's Tri-Z's are sick too...Very sick...Sick from running 70+ Mx races over the last half dozen years every weekend...They don't need to be pretty to have the dogsnot run out of them week after week.

To the OP...Is there anyway the head gasket may have been installed incorrectly?

[oile]

So Mosh are you saying you could install the head gasket up side down?

[fabiodriven]

Whine all you want. I'm not the one who has a guy checking his fuel pump for a coolant overflow problem.

[TimSr]

In fact the pump diaphragm will leak while running filling the crank case with gas from the pulse line causing all kinds of problems..

Yep, seen it. Fills the crank with gas, blows smoke like a steam locamotive, runs like crap, and floods out an dies, wont start until you drain it, and dry it out. I did not see where he described any of those symptoms. Nor can I conceive any possible way the result of a leaking fuel pump diaphram causes coolant to blow out the overflow.

[TimSr]

So Mosh are you saying you could install the head gasket up side down?

Yes. On many of the metal layered ones the top metal layer has a slightly smaller center hole. If you install it upside down, the piston can hit it.


Did you ever visually verify good coolant flow? Did you replace the impeller because of this problem, or did the problem occur afterwards?

[Mosh]

So Mosh are you saying you could install the head gasket up side down? Yes. As Tim states the factory steel gasket has a piston relief cut in it. That should face the piston with the smaller diameter ridge mates against the cylinder head. If the trike was fine then you did a top end and now have overheating it is possible the headgasket is upside down. This is more possible with the 3 layer steel gasket.

[badass350x]

Whine all you want. I'm not the one who has a guy checking his fuel pump for a coolant overflow problem.

Pay attention, if you had any Idea about the z then you can speak about what you think you know!!!

[badass350x]

Yep, seen it. Fills the crank with gas, blows smoke like a steam locamotive, runs like crap, and floods out an dies, wont start until you drain it, and dry it out. I did not see where he described any of those symptoms. Nor can I conceive any possible way the result of a leaking fuel pump diaphram causes coolant to blow out the overflow.

so how is the carb running if you have a good amount if fuel going to your crank case??

[badass350x]

Oile, sorry not trying to over step on your tread, was trying to run you through a few simple things before you go tearing the the motor apart .. but we have the gang That that thinks they know everything about everything so I will let them direct you the way they think they should!! If you ever want to see some good running "looking" z's lmk.....

[TimSr]

so how is the carb running if you have a good amount if fuel going to your crank case??
I don't understand what you are asking. The operation of the carb and what it does is not affected by fuel in the crank. The negative effects of fuel in the crank are felt in the combustion chamber.


I'm not trying to antagonize you or your advice, but you're going to have to do a better job of explaining how you get from the fuel pump and carburetor to the overpressuring the cooling system. I generally stay out of these threads because of the bickering it incites, but I hate to see people sending some poor guy out chasing far fetched long shots until he has checked through and eliminated all the basics, and I think basic diagnostics and troubleshooting of the most likely and frequent causes is far more cost effective than swapping out everything that might cause it. Quite frankly, if you've had TriZs for any length of time, I would be shocked you have never run into overheating or compression leakage issues, and even more shocked that you ever corrected one by rebuilding a fuel pump.

[fabiodriven]

Pay attention, if you had any Idea about the z then you can speak about what you think you know!!!

I don't "think I know" anything about Z's. I've never even touched one. The whole reason I was reading this thread was to learn something. There have only been 2 Z's in our riding group up here and they both had issues with overheating. Neither of them were ever fixed or brought back out on our rides after their issues, so I always wondered why the Z's seemed so prone to overheating. I had seen a lot of overheating references on these boards about Tri-Z's and I was trying to learn what the issue is. As I read through this thread from the beginning, I started questioning a lot of the suggestions you guys were making. I told myself some of the things you guys were suggesting were kind of silly, but I read on and reminded myself that I don't know a whole lot about Z's so let's see where these guys are going. Once I read Tim's post it confirmed what I was thinking. You guys were just making odd suggestions about what to look at as a cause for this guy's problem.

This is the new guys' section so this is exactly where this kind of stuff usually happens, but it's usually newer guys making these odd suggestions amongst themselves, not seasoned members sending them checking things that have nothing to do with their problem. That's why I felt the need to speak up. You guys shouldn't feel compelled to answer just for the sake of answering. If you don't have the answer to the guy's problem, why not just watch and listen? Why do you feel compelled to answer with something that isn't going to help? I didn't have any answers for the guy, so I didn't post. I just wanted to learn something.

The guy attacking Tim and Mosh is just ridiculous. Tim's been racing Z's for a long time and knows them inside and out, and so does Mosh. They're making suggestions that make sense.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to working on my truck. I have a bad ball joint so I changed the fluid in the rear diff last night. For some reason, the ball joint was still clunking this morning on my way into work.


so how is the carb running if you have a good amount if fuel going to your crank case??

And what the heck does that even mean?

[oile]

so this morning i checked coolant flow. it is flowing good. next i pulled the head to look at the head gasket and the gasket is the same on both sides so i went and looked at the new head gasket i have and to see what mosh and tim are talking about on the gasket i see what there talking about so now i still have no idea what is causing this issue. i guess ill pull all the hoses and radiator and give them a very good cleaning. i also looked for signs of a bad head gasket i didn't see anything that looked bad

[badass350x]

There was two different things going on here 1. Overheating issue 2. Running rich, so there was maybe a mix up, but when there's people that love drama we are going to have issues...

[oile]

mosh i bought this tri about a month ago the guy said all it needed was new clutches so i drove it for a few minutes and he was right so it sat until i got the clutches and i noticed it had water in the oil so i bought a new water pump and seal. so i got all this installed and now this is happening so i thought i would try a new head gasket and different head still the same thing

[Mosh]

Ok that makes a little more sense then. Since you have the system drained, I would like you to remove the small water pump cover and see if the plastic fins spin by hand freely. If so, then the the retainer pin is not in the grove or missing for the drive gear. Also, when you pulled the clutch cover there is a small washer, actually 2 near the pump. One is very small and goes in the right case at the end of the pump shaft, the other is larger and goes behind the plastic gear and pin. If those are missing, it can let the pump float back and forth and sometimes the plastic drive gear can melt or get chewed up or the pin can fall out for the pump..maybe the circlip for the water pump fell off. If your down this far, you may as well recheck. you should be able to reuse the side cover gaskets if your careful.

[MTS]

Well this was the more roundabout way of getting the whole
story, boy did I open a can of worms. If the pin and washer are in there as mosh suggested and the gasket was in proper check your cyl head studs for being tight and not pulling up when you tighten them causing a improper torque,leak, thought I red its steaming at an idle as in blowin smoke out the overflow? cold?