Atc 70 hellllllp pllllllllease !! Im going insane !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[woodyatc]

So i have a 1985 atc 70, it did run fine engine / compression transmission all fine, started 1st pull ticked over ok, pulled strongly, then it developed an intermitant starting fault, its had a carb clean out, then brand new carb, then brand new points / condensor and coil (has good spark and fuel delivery) all wiring ok, timing ok, when it do'es start it usually start within a few pulls and runs great no problems, yet other times it wo'nt start at all - like today it fired 1st time this morning yet would not even bump start 2 hours later ???? Despite timing / spark being ok and carb brand new, i just do'nt understand how it can run great one minute and not run the next ? Could the plug possibly be the problem ? (the plug is a d6hs as opposed to th cr7hs usualy fitted to the atc 70, i can only assume the plug threads got stripprd at some point and a different plug was needed ? It do'es run ok with this plug when it starts though ) im thinking maybe plug ? Or a slipping flywheel due to flywheel key / woodruff key ?? (what size woodruff key for an atc 70 ?) any help would be greatly appreciated as this little trike it cracking me up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Flossyb20]

Is the handlebar switch turned to on?? Maybe there's a short in it....

[Handy Andy]

When it won't start, take out the plug and hold it against the engine with wire attached and see if it sparks. If not, you know it is an electrical problem. Have you checked the valve adjustment? I have a honda MC, and when I checked the valves, the top one was too loose, and the bottom one was too tight. It also had difficulty starting. Think the bottom valve was leaking compression.

[barnett468]

Hello

OK Sometimes it will not start even though there is spark. Are you checking the plug itself for spark or just grounding the plug cap?

Could it be flooding. A gas soaked plug will aften sparkwhen removed and laid on the head and checked but will fail to start the motor.

A dirty ground like coil to frame or dirty wire connection will some times cause an incosistent problem. It will sometimes allow the plug to spark when laid on the head but it will not have a good enough spark to fire the fuelnunder compression. Try cleaning the connections.

You can by pass the kill switch also

Is the spark bright and strong looking or is it a pale yellow orange etc. If it's weak your coil is likely weak.

Your d6 heat range plug should not cause the problem.

Did it run fine with the old points and condensor? If so then it is the points or condensor or their installation especially if they were made in China not Japan or the US.

It is not your flywheel key. Once out of time enough not to start it will never come back.

[woodyatc]

Handlebar switch seems to be working fine, plug sparks when its switched to on and doe'snt when its switched to off, so i think its ok ?

[woodyatc]

Hi, it sparks ok with the plug out no problem, so i do,nt see it being electrical ? i just assumed as when it do'es run its sweet as a nut that the valve clearances were fine ?

[woodyatc]

Hi there, im checking the spark at the plug which is strong bright blue / white, the carb is a brand new replacement with the fuel air mixture set as per the manual (one full turn out from seated) it will run fine on the carb once it starts, the coil is brand new as are the points and condensor, the ground on the coil is good as are all the wiring conectors, it had the same problem with intermitant starting on the old set up (carb points coil condensor, although the spark was much weaker and sometimes none exsistant on the old set up) it used to run and start fine then just developed this intermitant problem ? i just do'nt see why it wo'nt start if its got a good strong spark, good fuel / air delivery, and is in timing ? like i said its got me beat !!!!!!!!!!

[barnett468]

Does it have a BATTERY? If so do a voltage test when it will start to see if it is charging just to see.

Even thought the problem existed with all the old parts are the electrical parts you replaced CHINESE?

Is the plug WET or DRY when it won't start?

If you don't check everything everyone is suggesting it will be hard to determine your problem.

Here is a new potential problem. You now say that it "runs on the carb once it starts". This suggests that you have to spray starting fluid in it when you are trying to start it. Is this the case and do you have to do this all yhe time and with the old carb too?. This is important info. It suggests a couple things, two of them are you may have an intake air leak but since it still won't start if you try to push start it this is unlikely so if the plug is dry after a push start attempt then it sounds like it is not getting fuel consistently.

When it refuses to start, check to see if the plug is wet. If it is not then try to start it by pushing it with the choke half on and the throttle wide open. If it still refuses to start then remove the the plug and if it is DRY it is not getting fuel. Since it did this with the last carb also the problem is in your fuel petcock. It is getting intermittently plugged most likely from rust in the tank.

Let us know what you find after doing this.

[fabiodriven]

My favorite answer lately- Next time it won't run, remove the gas cap. If the bike starts up, your gas cap is the problem.

[barnett468]

My favorite answer lately- Next time it won't run, remove the gas cap. If the bike starts up, your gas cap is the problem.

Gas cap sounds like another good suggestion to me however if it sits for two hours and then wont restart like the guy said and he left the petcock open when he stopped it two hours prior it would loose any potential vacuum it might have had providing it could suck air past the needle and seat. If it was running fine and he turned it off and shut the petcock off then the tank would not have much if any vacuum at that time or two hours later but your idea is fast and easy could still be problem, i'd try it too.

[woodyatc]

Hi thanks very much for the reply
Has no battery
Good and consistent spark (when plug is out)
Replacement parts are chine sets but it did start and run fine when they were fitted
Plug is getting wet when pull starting and bump starting so I do'nt think fuel delivery is a problem ?
Never had to use starting spray
Air intake is fine new gaskets and sealant
Maybe valves clearance or stuck ?
But if it was valves I did'nt think it would run even internmitantly ? When it do'es start it starts and run fine good compression pulls strong.

[woodyatc]

Thanks I'll try that, but it gets fuel through the carb and into the cylinder no problem, do you still think the cap maybe the problem ?

[woodyatc]

I'll try the gas cap and see if it makes a difference ? Fuel delivery is ok though tank has been cleaned and flushed has new fuel and fuel is getting through the carb and into the cylinder all the time, plug is wet when pull starting or push starting, and when it do'es start it runs fine and will then start ok if you switch it off and back on no problem at all, I really just cannot understand it at all ? Unless some how it's losing its spark when the plugs in the cylinder ?

[woodyatc]

ok so i removed the gas cap and it started after three pulls after being stood 24 hrs and ran fine (it has done this in the past though with the gas cap in place like i said its an intermitant starting problem) i know its getting fuel with the gas cap in place as i've checked and rechecked the plug when trying to start it in the pas and its always wet, so maybe it starting with the gas cap off was a coincidence and it was just one of those times it was gonna start anyway ? guess i'll know in time when i try to start it again (with gas cap off)the gas cap is the original Honda one with the on / off position barin place, what difference will starting it with the cap off or on make ? im showing my lack of knowledge now, but have'nt worked on these machines much at all, most of what i do is tackled with the aid of the haynes manual, and that says nothing about the fuel cap.

[trike savior]

even though it has on off switch on cap, it can quit working sealing the tank and not allowing gravity to do its job properly.

hard to tell from posts but is the engine always cold when this happens or is engine hot or both. somethimes electrical components can start acting funny when hot. mainly generator inside engine. also heard ignition coils can act funny like you are saying. it sounds like you know when it wont start the plug is wet, so its either flooding or loosing spark. i would say next time it wont start, push start it as you say you do. if it still wont start immediately pull plug and check for spark, if no spark then check for wet plug. if it is wet quickly dry it or use another plug and check for spark again. if it sparks, flooding is only your problem, if no spark look at generator or coil.

also check your harness for bare wires or bad connections. could be intermittently grounding or loosing connection

[barnett468]

Hello

Trike savior is apparently a pretty sharp guy and he beat me to your probable problem based on your last post. Ill just refine what he is mentioning and add a couple things you can check out.

You said it occasionally won’t restart after sitting for 2 hours. This means that since it was running fine when you stopped it and it has had 2 hours for all the electrical components to cool off it the problem is not from hot electrical components.

2. You say the plug is ALWAYS wet when you remove it, is this still correct? If so you are obviously getting fuel as you suspected. This leads to the most probable cause which is INTERMITTENT FLOODING. Now why is it intermittent is the question. The main causes are a float that occasionally sticks because it may be a CHINESE CARB, a float level that is to high, debris from the tank getting stuck in the needle, the needle intermittently not seating properly because it is a CHINESE CARB, too large of a main jet, too high of a slide needle position or too high of a “choke” on the jet needle.

You do have spark when the plug is installed don’t worry about that anymore now lets try to find out why it is flooding. There are a few ways to do this.

a. If your carb is CHINESE throw it away for the two reasons mentioned above and buy a new Mikuni or Kehin and never have trouble again. I’m quite serious.
b. Does it ever burble upon acceleration like it might be rich, especially while under load, if so it is too rich?
c. Does it burble more when it is hot, if so it is too rich?
d. If it burbles on a hill ONLY it may also be that your float level is too high.
d. Try starting it with the choke OFF and the engine is cold. If it starts easily it is jetted too rich but this may not be your only problem.
e. Does it always start every single time when it is ice cold like in the morning?
f. Does it ever restart when it is warm, if so how frequently 5 times out of 10 etc?
g. Can you EVER immediately restart it after shutting it off when it is warm?
h. Does it always fail to restart when it is warm?
i. What brand is your plug, NGK, Champion, N/D etc. If it is a Champion your plug is too COLD. Champions use a revers heat rage from everyone else, 1 being cold and 10 being hot. This should not be your problem but put a D7 NGK in it if you have a Champion and try that.
j. Lower the float level a little and try that.

Your answers to these questions should help pinpoint the cause of the flooding if in fact that is what the problem is.
You said you cleaned the tank and the petcock should have a built in filter in it still hopefully, so there should not be debris in your needle and seat.

If it was me I would throw away all the Chinese parts even if they work now you will be going through the same thing sooner than later with one of them failing.

Shame on you be an American and buy Japanese!

[Flossyb20]

Next time you have it running, start jiggling all you wire connections real good, and see if something may make it shut off...it's quite possible after years of being ridden that one of your connections is bad or corroded. Start at the handlebar switch and chase it all the way down to the stator...just a thought

[woodyatc]

Hi always difficult to start from cold, starts no problems when hot, all wires are conected ok i made sure of that, its always sparks i've pulled the plug and it sparks even when its failed to start, the plug is always wet, so im guessing it may be a problem wiyh flooding ? how do i get round that ? am i just best off push starting and usin the pull start when its warmed up ? to avoid flooding ? could a valve issue cause flooding ?

[barnett468]

Hi always difficult to start from cold, starts no problems when hot, all wires are conected ok i made sure of that, its always sparks i've pulled the plug and it sparks even when its failed to start, the plug is always wet, so im guessing it may be a problem wiyh flooding ? how do i get round that ? am i just best off push starting and usin the pull start when its warmed up ? to avoid flooding ? could a valve issue cause flooding ?

Your last post said it started right up when cold but would not restart 2 hours later but now you say the exact opposite. Can't help you much like this. I think i'm going to bail out very soon. I think if trike savior bails too you may be sol.

"ok so i removed the gas cap and it started after three pulls after being stood 24 hrs and ran fine (it has done this in the past though with the gas cap in place like i said its an intermitant starting problem" Drive it with the cap loose all day start and stop.

"Replacement parts are chine sets but it did start and run fine when they were fitted" REPLACE ALL CHINESE PARTS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THEM MAY NO LONGER WORK. The parts you removed were probably CHINESE also.

I asked you some other questions above. You need to do all those tests also and answer them exactly in detail or i can no longer help you.

CHINESE CARB YES OR NO!


It is a JAPANESE bike not a CHINESE one. There is a reason there are no CHINESE cars in the USA!

[woodyatc]

i'll check the wiring again but only just rewired it with all new wiring and conectors when i put in new points condensor and coil so i ca'nt see that being the problem ? think maybe its a flooding issue ? thanks for your help and continued imput much appreciated

[woodyatc]

Hi many thanks for your continued imput and support its very much appreciated, sorry if i've caused a bit of confussion ? the starting problem is always when its cold, it restarts no problems once its hot and been running a few mins, always resterts on one pull when its warmed up, the replacement carb is a Kehin (bought it from the US mail order, ot do'es seem to be running rich (smell heavily of gas when its runnung) burblres a bit on tick over but not so much under load ? plug is an NGK D6HS, i think its a problem with flooding now that all other problems have been illiminated, i always thought spark and timing were ok, should i try the old carb again ? as im not sure how to alter the float level ? i've set the fuel air mixture as it says in the manual (one full turn out from seated) Many thanks once again for your help, im based in England by the way and parts are scarse over here for the atc's usually only cheap chinease copies.

[barnett468]

i'll check the wiring again but only just rewired it with all new wiring and conectors when i put in new points condensor and coil so i ca'nt see that being the problem ? think maybe its a flooding issue ? thanks for your help and continued imput much appreciated


You just don't seem to be paying attention to the posts or just ignoring them because it's not what you want to hear. If you are so positive your CHINESE parts and CHINESE carb are fine then why are you here with a problem?

Both I and trike savior have already answered your flooding question. I told you how to fix it. If you want my answer you will have to read ALL my posts to find it. I don't want to answer that question anymore.

[woodyatc]

Hi again, the carb is a Kehin not a cheap copy, your post did say only go with a Kehin or Mikuni carb ? the only other part that is a cheap copy is the condensor (as i struggled to get hold of a genuine replacement) the points and coil are both oem replacements, sorry if i have offended you in some way ? im trying my best to get to the bottom of this problem, just im not realy that technicaly mineded, it appears to me that both you and trike saviour have been very helpfull and ponpointed the problem as a flooding issue, and im very gratfull for that, im just trying to get help on how to rectify this ? the carb i purchased is a Kehin brand new replacement for the Atc 70 that i bought from the US, could it possibly be jetted wrong ? how do i go about lowering the float level if that may be the problem ? once again i do appreciate your help

Regards

Gav.

[woodyatc]

Hi again (sorry to be apain) i think both you and Barnett468 have got to the bottom of the issue as a flooding one, many thanks for that, the carb i have on is a genuine Kehin brand new replacement for the Atc 70 that i bought from the US, do you think it could be jetted wrong causing the flooding issue ? Barnett468 thinks it could also be a problem with the float being set to high, any idea how i go about lowering the float ? failing that should i just go and rebuild and refit the original carb and see how that go'es ? Many thanks once again for your help and imput.

Regards

Gav.

[trike savior]

take it easy barnett dont you remember when you were first starting out, didn't know much and got flustered when you had a problem you couldnt fix. hes just having trouble explaining what hes finding. you cant expect everyone who works on these to be die hard mechanics like us, for some people its just a toy and a hobby and they're just trying to save the money of taking it to a shop. this site is for them too

but woody you need to read our posts more carefully because barnett did explain this.

you need to go through your entire fuel system. get yourself a five gallon bucket from home depot, lowes whatever. remove your tank and cap and dump it into bucket upside down. this will cause the fuel to rush out hopefully taking dirt and debris with it. take a look and see whats in the fuel. if there is a lot of stuff floating around you need to clean tank. while its empty inspect inside of tank for rust. what i normally do to clean it (and some of you green, tree huggers might not like this) is fill it with water till its full, slosh it around and quickly dump it out the cap hole. plugging fuel line holes will help. again you are trying to get everything to comeout with it. do this a few times. if you found your tank is rusty inside (not bright shiny metal) i suggest buying a gallon of "metal rescue" (look it up online) and using it on tank. ewither way your final step after you are confident it is clean and you are done with the water and metal rescue and the tank is empty, pour in some gasoline (not much, maybe a few oz's) put the cap on and slosh it around until fuel has hit everywhere. the idea here is to absorb any water into the fuel. then dump the water/ fuel into that five gallon bucket. if you want to save the fuel that came out of the tank before you do this that is fine but use a funnel with a fine screen to get junk out.

now your tank is clean but i would still suggest some tiny fuel filters you can find on ebay for both lines

cleaning your carb is as simple as making sure everything is clean. buy a can of brakleen that has a straw taped on it. you will also need an air compressor and a little air shooter with a tip you can use to blow out all the ports. take pics with your phone or camera of the carb so you know how it goes back together.
especially after you remove bowl. remove everything till you have a bare carb body with noothing on it. every screw, jet, carb slide (part that moves with throttle cable). put the straw on your can of brakleen and hit every hole with the brakleen and then the compressed air, this will blow any junk out of carb.

let us know when you remove bowl from carb if you find a brass float or a plastic float. if you find a brass float we have more to talk about. you need to look at the needle which is connected to the float and sits in a hole. it allows fuel in from tank. the tip should look like a perfect ^ (cone) if there are any worn spots it needs to be replaced. same goes for idle mix screw. it is the only other adjustment screw on carb that is not the one that contacts the carb slide

reassemble the carb and post what you have found on here. then we will talk about properly adjusting the carb once you have it back on

[fabiodriven]

I'm sorry, but I can't sit here and read all of these drawn out posts.

Barnett, take a pill man, please.

Woody, if you're sure that the trike is flooding and it's mostly only doing it when it's cold, let me give you some advice. I don't know the level of your experience so I'm going to simplify this as much as possible. Please do not take offense.

Every machine is going to be a little different than the next. If you're getting too much fuel on cold starts, then I suggest you try your cold starts WITHOUT using the choke. If you are not using the choke on cold starts (assuming you ARE getting too much fuel), then the next step would be to hold the throttle wide open while you pull the starter. Holding the throttle open will allow the engine more air to offset the excess in fuel you are getting, thus (hopefully) making it start. Please try this and let me know what happens.

[barnett468]

OK, woodtatc, I read your new posts and like them much better. I will not bail just yet. You can also thank trikesaviour I’m still here providing you’re happy I’m still here lol. Like fabiodriven I will also make it easy. In your case I would not disassemble the carburetor just yet especially since you say you just replaced it with a new kehin. If you eventually need to do this also, then write down all the jet sizes including the # on the brass tube that holds the main jet.

Ok, now if it were me I would do the following exactly as described before doing anything else. Others opinions may differ so just do what makes the most sense to you, don't just do that sounds the easiest otherwise you are not helping yourself.

Please feel free to post results as you get them especially those from the float bowl draining and cold starting tests even if you may not have finished all the other tests yet. These results will help the most at this point.

Are you turning your gas valve off over night? If not then your carburetor float needle may have a very tiny leak.since you say it won’t start after sitting for long periods but will restart after sitting for short periods. Is this statement still correct? If so then this would be the biggest and most likely of your starting problems but you still may have others. We'll see hopefully.

Is your gas old like 2 years or so? I assume it is not based on you tank cleaning comment.

1. Loosen gas cap AFTER bike has been sitting and listen for any suction noise when loosening. I would leave it loose during testing but you have to watch for gas spilling which would be nasty and dangerous so it’s up to you. Just don’t hit any bumps or ride it hard with it loose.

2. Trikesaviours idea is very good but for now you can simply close the gas tank fuel valve/petcock then put the carburetor float bowl overflow/drain hose into a small diameter or narrow clear glass then loosen the small screw on the bottom of the carburetor float bowl until gas flows out the tube. Let it drain until it stops then retighten screw. If you have water you will clearly see a line separating the water and the gas. Water does not mix with gas or oil. It is also heavier so it will sink to the bottom if there is any. If there is any water then stop and clean your tank before proceeding as trikesavior suggested. If there is any debris you will easily see that in the glass also. If there is a lot then clean tank. If there is a tiny amount don’t worry about right now and proceed to the next step. Reply back with results.

3. Next with the bike ice cold and gas cap loose and CHOKE OFF inspect the plug PRIOR to starting. It should be completely dry. What color is the plug, pale tan to white or medium to dark brown and is there any crust? Is there any black powder on it, if so this is a sign of a rich condition, so is a fairly dark plug. When was it last replaced? If dark or crusty replace it if not then proceed, we’ll look at it again later.

Reinstall plug, turn gas valve on and try starting several times with the CHOKE OFF as I and fabiodriven have previously mentioned but I suggest you do it with NO THROTTLE first otherwise it will defeat a purpose and it will confuse the issue. If it does not start then check plug again, it should be DRY. Note whether it is dry slighly damp or dripping with gas then dry it off, reinstall and try starting with 1/3 throttle. If it still does not start then note plug condition again, dry it off, reinstall and try starting at 2/3 to full throttle. If it still does not start then remove plug note condition and reinstall. NOW if the plug was dripping wet at 2/3-full throttle we move to plan B, which is try to get it running the way you normally do such as push start, starting fluid etc and do the other tests in my previous post. If you just can't get it started then you need to disassemble your carb see "carb disassembly" below. However if the plug is still dry after the 2/3-full throttle test your carb is NOT too rich, one mystery solved. See how that works? Pretty cool huh? At this point put your choke on 1/2 way only not full, not 2/3 then repeat the 3 starting procedures of 0 throttle, 1/3 throttle and 2/3-full throttle always checking plug after each step. If it does not start and the plug is still dry then redo the starting procedure with the choke at 2/3 not full. If it is still dry then try it all with full choke..

If your plug looked dripping wet during the entire first starting process with the CHOKE OFF and you always had spark, then your carb is delivering too much fuel for some reason and it will have to come apart. The confusing problem with this is that the hotter the weather and/or the hotter the motor gets the richer it becomes which increases starting difficulty but you're saying it starts easy when hot but not when cold. Do you start to see the problem with this?

Always check for spark like you have been when it doesn’t start.

CARB DISASSEMBLY - Remove everything write down all the jet sizes including the number on the brass tube that holds the main jet. It will easily push out by pressing on it from the float bowl side. Also get the number off the bottom of the slide and on the needle etc

If it you find nothing obviously wrong with the carb then you can try turning the fuel on with the float bowl off while lightly pushing up on the gas shut off needle in the float bowl area to see if there is an obvious leak. This will not show a small slow or intermittent leak. Warning this will obviously make a mess so don’t smoke.


Everything is important. Things you may consider as insignificant may not be. I personally read every word of every post I try to help on and it appears trikesavior does also.


I am giving you credit for being a bit more knowledgeable than others are based on a few of your replies while some of your other replies leave my head shaking and drive me nuts. I am still confident however that you can easily do everything we ask and reply back in detail just do things one at a time trying the easy ones first.


I am giving you credit for being a bit more knowledgeable than others are based on a few of your replies while some of your other replies leave my head shaking and drive me nuts. I am still confident however that you can easily do everything we ask and reply back in detail just do things one at a time trying the easy ones first.

PS- You now say you installed a new wiring harness. PLEASE don't tell me it is CHINESE too.


NON RELATED STUFF

Trikesaviour and Fabiodriven I for one am glad you are both here to help him but Fabiodriven please read all the posts so you can be current and also see exactly what trike savior and I are referring to.

Trikesaviour, thanks for being observant in noticing my “start with no choke” comment and for mentioning it here and it’s great you had a couple different ideas to add to mine and others. I certainly either don't know everything nor can remember it all anymore anyway. lol. I have also done what you emailed me about. Thanks

Fabiodriven the problem is that he is NOT sure his bike is rich that’s what I and trike savior have been trying to determine for him so far. As trike savior mentioned I already asked him to try starting with no choke in a previous post. If you read all the posts carefully you will see what I and trikesavoiur have been dealing with, with his conflicting information. By the time we're someone would have asked him at least most of the questions I already have any way so I'd rather give him the opportunity to see them all and do them at his own speed once he knows what they will be. It may also help him understand the purpose of the questions and where we are heading with them. I would love to take a "pill" unfortunately nu dog ate them all but at least she's happy. lol. Thanks again for you supportive post on my "Kawawasaki r and d engineer" post.

[woodyatc]

Hi trikesaviour, fabiodriven and barnett468, thanks agin for your continued help and imput it very helpfull and appreciated, im gonna do my best to work through them and get back to you all, im now at work for the next 7 days so it will be a while till i get chance to work on the trike again, i've allready cleaned and flushed out the tank,it clean inside no rust or debris, fresh fuel and fuel is not contaminated with water, allready cleaned out the old carb as you described prior to posting on here (silly the i did'nt note down jet sixes though) the plug is around 6 months old and is dark and sooty in appearance ? im now pretty sure it a problems with the trike running rich as you all point out, so like i say im gonna work through all of those steps / tips and try to find out why and rectify the problem, im just trying to get the trike running consistently for my son as he loves to ride it !! like i say when it do'es run it runs very well a great little trike, amd barnett468 no wiring harness was not chinese (they make good food though) thanks for your patience mechanics are not realy my strong point as you can easialy tell, give me a person to work on and im ok with that

[barnett468]

OK woodyatc.

Everything you just mentioned is exactly what I thought and was hoping you would say. But I did notice you originally said you had a new carb for it and now you reinstalled the old kehin. Did you do this during our process here. If so it doesn't help us not to know. Is the problem exactly the same. If so then we may have a problem, we'll have to see. What is your NEW carb again not the old one you just reinstalled?

Remind us you did this so we can start from there when you come back.

Bummer you can't fix and ride it for another 7 days now. Hey look on the brite side, if you work on a trike and mess up at least it or it's family won't sue you! lol.

Look forward to hear back, be safe!


FROM WOODTATC - "its had a carb clean out, then brand new carb," You see Fabiodriven, I told you so, lol.

[woodyatc]

Hi Barnett468, its still on the new replacement carb at present (its a kehin) the old carb was a kehin also (although the two differ slightly in the way they look, (the new replacemant is a bit more modern looking) i did a thourgh clean out on the old carb and had the bike running on that one fine until the trike developed its intermitant running problem, thats when i put on the new replacement Kehin carb and new ignition parts in a bid to cure the intermitant starting problem, thats why i was thinking of putting the original Kehin carb back on and see if its still running rich on that ? (i do'nt remember it as running rich on the old carb ?) in fact it had problems with fuel delivery thats why i stripped it and cleaned it out, im still going to try all those other solutions aswell to try and get to the bottom of it ?
It definatley had problems with weak spark before thats why i put all the new ignition parts on
maybe the replacement carb is the problem ?

Regards

Gav.

[barnett468]

HELLO

I reread your posts and thought about it and I think there is an issue with your new carb like you think. This is almost impossible because Kehins are xlnt quality. Anyway once you answer the questions below we’ll know more.

Get ALL the jet info I requested from BOTH carbs.

1. Do you have venier calipers to measure the bore id of both carbs?

2. Do you know if the OLD carb is ORIGINAL, or are you just assuming it is?

3. What are any numbers on it?

4. Did it have the SAME starting problem once you cleaned the carb with the OLD electrical parts?

5. Was the plug always wet when it wouldn’t start with the CLEAN old carb and OLD electrical parts?


NEW KEHIN
1. Are you sure it is a real kehin and not a copy? Areal kehin will say kehin on it a copy should not.

2. Since it looks different it is NOT a new ORIG, is it replacement?

3. Is it the same size [cfm] as the original?

4. It could easily be jetted richer than orig.

5. Where did the new one come from?

6. What numbers are on the outside?

7. Any part numbers on the box?

[woodyatc]

Hi Barnett, as soon as i get chance i'll get back to you with all the info you requested

For now -
I do'nt have venir calipers to measure the carbs.
Im just assuming the old carb is original (as the bike is pretty much original and complete).
i di have starting problems with the old carb in place after i cleaned it (but im assuming that was down to the old worn out electrical parts ?) i never tried the old carb new electrical parts combo, i just went with new electrical / new carb setup.
plug was always wet with the old cleaned out carb when it would'nt start.
it has the Kehin marks on the new replacement carb so i assume its an original Kehin ?
I purchased the carb from ebay in the US, it did not come in a box, but the seller stated it was sutible for an Atc 70 .
yes its the same size as the original.
As for jet sizes etc i'll get back to you as soon as i can.
I just assumed (STUPIDLY) it would be a simple bolt on replacement and did not bother to check jet sizes etc againt the old one.

Many thanks once agin for your help and imput

Gav.

[barnett468]

hello woodyatc

thanks for the info, now you're not bored while you are at work because i gave you something to do, lol. I guess we'll attribute your previous problem to old electrical and the new one to the new carb for now. I'd like to do the test with the old since it did start and run fine at one point in time with it.

"Seller said it was "suitable" for an atc 70", lol. We'll see.

Did the bike ever NOT have the problem with the new carb or was the problem there from the start?

Condenser - I think since it is the ONLY chinese part we may try disconnecting it. If it still sparks without it we'll test it that way also.

Plug - A carbon black plug can sometimes spark whem laid on head but not whwn under compression from cylinder pressure so again we''ll use a new one.

thanks

[woodyatc]

Hi Barnett

Got the new and old carbs stripped down today, new carb is definatley a Ke hin (as carb is stamped up ke hin on main body and on jets etc)

SO NEW CARB
has model number stamped on body PB 88 B D 0B21
Needle is marked 89Q needle slide is marked 4UG
Main jet is a 72
smaller jet is a 38

OLD CARB
has model number PB 38 A G V I +
needle is marked J2302G, needle slide is marked 85C
Main jet is a 58
smaller jet is a 38

Im no expert (obviously) but to me its seems the new carb is jetted bigger and delivering to much fuel ?

so i cleaned and reinstalled the original carb and the bike starts easialy and runs ok (tickover is a bit lumpy)
rides realy good (good pick up / acceleration)
i installed a new plug, (which after an hour of running is a bit black and sooty)
so im guessing its still running a bit rich ? (it will run with the mixture screw turned all the way in, as well as turned out 1 to 2 full turns
The intake is leak free
So am i correct in thinking the original carb is worn badly, jets needle etc ?
Or could there be another reason its running rich ?

Regards

Gav.

[woodyatc]

Forgot to say the trike started fine on the new carb when it was 1st fitted, never ran the bike much when it was started after 1st fitting the new carb, but the next time i went to use the trike (around 3 days after fitting the new carb) thats when i started having the starting problems, sometimes would start easialy, sometimes was difficult to stsrt, other times would not start at all.

Gav.

[trike savior]

i would put the 58 jet in new carb and see what happens. black soot is good you want it running a bit rich. wet like it was before is what you do not want to see.

[woodyatc]

Thanks Trike saviour

The plug is a bit black and sooty (and it was a brand new plug fitted at the same time as i refitted the original carb) and the trike was only running for around an hour, its not getting overly wet when starting or running, i just assumed if it was fouling the plug by running rich it would cause problems ? im not sure if the 58 jet will fit in the new carb ?

Regards

Gav.

[barnett468]

Hello


Good jetting and performance info however you missed one number I mentioned which is the one on the long brass tube that holds the main jet but I may not need it now we'll see.


I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes so I can only offer you my suggestions based on my level of experience what ever that might be. Different suggestions are good to have so another one I have is to recommend you do what makes the most sense to you. Your bike starts and runs pretty good now right, ok. You have guessed most of your own problems with our help right, ok. Well my opinion is that you are very close to right again. Please reread my previous posts, I already told you how to read your plug color in one of those.

I don’t like to retype things but I will give you the short explanation again. BLACK soot is caused by EXCESS fuel. If your plug is DRY and sooty BLACK then your jetting is rich. If it is WET and sooty BLACK then it is rich AND you are burning OIL through the rings and you should see some lite blue/white smoke from the pipe HOWEVER if it is also RICH at the same time the excess fuel will cause the exhaust to look GRAY/BLACK and the GRAY/BLACK color will OBSCURE the the lite blue/gray oil smoke so you can’t see it. Your plug will NEVER be wet when you remove it from a RUNNING engine no matter how RICH it is. This is because the excess fuel will always BURN/EVAPORATE etc. It is combustible some of it isn’t going to just hanf around simply it was too lazy to burn.

It would most likely NOT start cold after you put the new carb on and ran it for a while because the continued soot build up started by the previous running condition finally built up to the point where it caused a weak spark. The reason it would start easier after it was hot is because your motor was hot enough to warm your fuel just enough that it would now ignite the gas a weak spark. Pretty cool again huh.

If you look at the plug in your new car it will be almost white and dry and so is the plug in a street bike, lawn mower and so on. A properly jetted engine of ANY kind will NEVER have a plug that looks SOOTY and BLACK. It’s simply impossible. You can verify this for yourself simply by going online and searching for “spark plug reading”. This is because they burn all the fuel and even though their plugs are white they are jetted fine. If they were too LEAN they would have a flat spot on acceleration. If we get your bike to be to lean I’ll fix it dont worry, but this probably won’t happen. We may need to burn off the excess built up carbon by riding it some more or clean it off by spraying carb cleaner in your motor when it is cold and while it is not running. Do not do this yet though. I want to keep your bike running and not take chances just yet, maybe later.

Even though your bike will probably run fine if you rejet your NEW carb I suggest you do NOT use it because I can’t find out EXACTLY what it is and It makes more sense to me to try and simply fix the one that is more original. Your old one did NOT wear out. Below is what I personally suggest you do.


Clean the new plug with a WIRE brush and carb cleaner.

Is the air clean and not soaked with air filter oil? If so clean it.

I still suggest doing my choke test I previously mentioned otherwise do the following but I can’t help you jet your carb perfectly this way but it will be close.

How much choke are you using to start when cold now, ¼ ½ etc?

How soon can you remove choke and have it idle?

What EXACTLY do you mean by LUMPY when starting, please explain the problem in DETAIL.

Did it ever do this before?

Since you do NOT have spare jets right now then do this instead. Lower the NEEDLE in the slide by RAISING the CLIP. Be EXTREMELY CAREFUL because it will want to FLY OFF and DISAPPEAR. Because of this tendency we call them JESUS clips because when they disappear we say “JESUS where did it go?” along with some other colorful phrases.

How does it start and run now, any flat spots?

Is the LUMPY thing gone?

DOES THE MIXTURE SCREW HAVE ANY EFFECT NOW, it should NOT yet because this regulates idle and just off idle.

How does the plug look, it should still look black etc?

When you can get a 56 and 54 main jet and a 35 pilot jet. Get a 60 main and 35 pilot for the new carb too if you want.

Clean the plug.

Install the 54, and any flat spot, lumpy gone etc?

Any flat spots on acceleration that you did not have before the jet change?

Does the mixture screw have any effect now?

How does the plug look now, it should look noticeably lighter.

We will probably install the pilot jet next and see how much choke it takes to start and see if the mixture screw has any effect now etc. but clean the plug and get a new one if it remains brown.

[trike savior]

you will have to excuse barnett he was an engineer for kawasaki and helped develop their race bikes. in those situations everything has to be perfect and that must be what hes used to. he is definately good and i would want him tuning my race bike but for what you are doing with a little atc 70 it is a little overkill. as long as it starts and runs consistently it should be good enough. if you start having problems with fouling plugs or it floods out again go ahead and start buying jets and getting it tuned.

sorry barnett i know you prolly spent alot of time writing that but it sounds like this is just a toy and they are not looking for a super performing race/trail bike.

[barnett468]

HELLO
Yes trike savior is right to at least some degree. I am anal. I did not want to mention the kawi engineer thing because I don’t want to sound like I know more than others. As you can see from my posts I value others opinions. However if you want a fire breathin 12 hp 70 cc bike I’m probably your guy, Just ride a klt 110 and you’ll see, that thing will do the ¼ mile in less than 1 minute flat, lol.

Look at it this way if I wasn’t thorough, we at the very least wouldn’t know your new carb is too rich which caused so much carbon build up in your motor it loaded the plug up and the carbon my still be in there.


Here’s a plug chart. The black oil fouled one has been in a motor a while a new oil fouled plug will just look wet.

http://forums.highperformancepontiac.com/70/9370522/the-general-discussion/spark-plug-chart-pics/


TRIKESAVIOR

It still doesn't run right and still carbons up the plug shouldn't we try to fix that at least, sounds like he's willing to try it?

so i cleaned and reinstalled the original carb and the bike starts easialy and runs ok (tickover is a bit lumpy)
rides realy good (good pick up / acceleration)
i installed a new plug, (which after an hour of running is a bit black and sooty)
so im guessing its still running a bit rich ? (it will run with the mixture screw turned all the way in, as well as turned out 1 to 2 full turns

[woodyatc]

Hi Barnett

I looked for a number on the brass tube that holds the main jet on both carbs but could not find one ?

The plug is black sooty and dry (no evidence of oily deposits) it do'es smoke a little (white grey smoke)

The air cleaner is the proper one for the trike not an after market bolt on, i'll give it a clean to make sure its ok.

The trike starts up on next to no choke at all (sometimes on no choke) it started on no choke this morning after being stood in a cold garage for 18 hrs (with the gas tap turned off) and it stared quite easily and setteled down to idle in around 30 secs)

By lumpy i mean its idles fine for around a minute the tends to drop its idle and will stall, unless you give it a little rev then it idles fine again.

How far should i lower the needle ? (its currently set on the third notch from the top of the needle) should i try it a notch at a time ?

Once i try the needle lowering i'll get back to you with the info on running plug condition etc

Mant thanks

[woodyatc]

Hi again Trike savior, i am after getting the little trike running and starting concistently, its for my boy to learn to ride on (he's never ridden gears before) as soon as he's mastered this one he'll be moving onto something a bit bigger, id like it to run without causing problems in the future though, many thanks once again for the help imput and info it much appareciated !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[barnett468]

hello woodyatc

Very good info, it will certainly help anyone that checks in.

Where is your idle mixture screw set right now, in all the way, 1 turn out 2 turns out etc.

You forgot to tell me if it starts with 0 throttle and no choke or not so i'm going to have to guess for now and that doesn't really help you but i'll try.

The plug is finally DRY great sign, the smoke is a little oil but not enough to foul the plug.

My guess is that it is rich on the pilot, if it starts with no throttle and no choke this is a guarantee but your mixture screw must be turned out for this.

Lower the needle just like i said 2 not 1.

don't use choke to start since it starts without it or you will flood the motor again.

get the 35 pilot i mentioned and other jets.

drive it as is with the needle down.

check plug periodically

toss the new jets in when you get them and try it again, any flat spots, plug color etc.

I think we're pretty much there i hope.

[woodyatc]

Hi Barnett

The idle mixture is set at one full turn out from seated at present.

It starts with about a third throttle when starting from cold at present (but once warm it starts with just a pull of the pull starter)

I'll give it a try with the needle lowered and see how thats go'es ?

And try and source the new jets (but like i say parts here in the uk are pretty scarse)
in fact these little trike are very scarse.

Thanks once again for all your help / imput and PATIENCE

Best regards

Gav.

[trike savior]

alright i admit after reading more you may need some more tuning because it should not start without choke on a cold start. ill drag my 70 out of the back of the shed and yank the carb to see what jets are in it. ive been meaning to do it anyway so why not now. it was always pretty good running and reliable so it should be a good comparison.

you never answered one of my questions. did the carb have a brass or plastic float. because if it is plastic that can be the whole problem because they get weak and cause the float to allow more fuel into bowl causing a rich condition. if its brass we can start messing with float height and maybe solve your problem. i think this may be the way to go because we are now dealing with the stock carb which should have had it running right at some point.

[fabiodriven]

These posts are way too long and I just can't sit here and read them. They're hurting my brain. This is wayyy too much info for a jetting problem.

Woody, if the plug is black and sooty, you are running too rich. If the plug is white, you are lean. Make jetting changes accordingly.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/55086-Carb-Jetting-101-Terms-Tips-and-Jetting-Theory

[trike savior]

dont pay attention to fabio there he does more $%!t talking on the forum then helping people from what ive seen. what do you expect though from someone who wants to be a male model (driven to be like fabio, the long haired muscle duche popular in the 90's, get it?). mayb thats why reading gives him a headache. the post he refrenced is from good people who try to help so you might check it out. it goes over basic terminology and carb parts and what they do. well get this nailed down soon, we are atleast making good progress now.

[fabiodriven]

dont pay attention to fabio there he does more $%!t talking on the forum then helping people from what ive seen. what do you expect though from someone who wants to be a male model (driven to be like fabio, the long haired muscle duche popular in the 90's, get it?). mayb thats why reading gives him a headache. the post he refrenced is from good people who try to help so you might check it out. it goes over basic terminology and carb parts and what they do. well get this nailed down soon, we are atleast making good progress now.

Excuse me? I just tried to help the guy. I have said nothing that is untrue and I didn't say anything about you. How is this talking sh!t? You guys are turning jetting an ATC70 into a monkey boning a football! Keep talking about me, let's see where that gets you.

Show me where I had anything negative to say in this thread please. It's all here in black and white, so quote me and let's see who's talking sh!t here.

[ezmoney1979]

dont pay attention to fabio there he does more $%!t talking on the forum then helping people from what ive seen. what do you expect though from someone who wants to be a male model (driven to be like fabio, the long haired muscle duche popular in the 90's, get it?). mayb thats why reading gives him a headache. the post he refrenced is from good people who try to help so you might check it out. it goes over basic terminology and carb parts and what they do. well get this nailed down soon, we are atleast making good progress now.
You just crossed the line there buddy.................. now apologize.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJhPLGMhRuQ

[woodyatc]

Hi Trike saviour

The carb has a plastic float in it

[trike savior]

like i said plastic float can get weak and start letting more fuel in the bowl than it should causing a rich condition. i think your new carb definately had a too big main jet giving you the ailments you had there. now you have proper jetting but an old float doing what i am saying. are the floats the same between old and new carbs, if so i would try new float in old carb and see what happens. thats if the correct jet from old carb wont transfer into new carb.

to fabio
i have been in this forum alot since i joined about a month ago and all you do is talk $%!t. you called me trike satan like the second day i was on here for being off one year on parts i was telling someone to use. the amount of $%!t youve given the guy wanting to build the 200 250r bike is ridiculous. and now youre on here wineing about how long our posts are. please, help someone if you can but keep the b.s. to yourself. the rest of us want to help and be helped and are here to make friends not enemies. your apparently a different breed though. ive seen you give people good information written like a nice decent human being but not often. and now i imagine youll start spamming this thread with your $%!t talking. well im done responding and you need some help or a life or something.

again if you have something positive to contribute please do but dont start spamming this thread as well because we are trying to help this guy.

[fabiodriven]

Obviously you're new so I am going to give you the benefit of ignorance here.

I will not be changing my posting. I have been here for a long time and watched people come and go. You are in no position to tell me how to do anything and if you don't appreciate my posting, don't read it. Any "negative posting" or "sh!t talking" you see by me is the direct result of the person I am addressing. I have a very low tolerance for stupidity. I do not go around simply bashing people for fun. Once prodded, I reply. If you don't like my honest way of looking at things and my ability to "call things as they are", then do not provoke an honest reply from me.

This poor guy is merely attempting to jet an ATC70. You guys are trying to help him, yes. BUT, you are burying him beneath a pile of information, far too much information for him to try and weed through. Make it simple for him. Take him step by step. This is turning a mountain into a mole hill.

As far as me calling you "trike satan", yes I did. The question was posed whether or not an ATC 250SX rear axle would work on an 85 ATC 200X. You replied-


axles that should work for you
81-84 250 r
84-86 200 x

Which is wrong. It is bad information. I do not like when people spread incorrect info on here because those of us who actually build things get mislead and it costs us time and money. If you don't know, don't post. How do you know that guy wasn't looking at an axle on Ebay as you posted that ready to hit the "Buy it now"? So I said-


Ya disregard trike Satan up there. The 86-87 200X axle will not work for you. I'm fairly certain an 82 250R axle will work, not 100% positive about the 83-84 250R axle though.

Did that really offend you that much? If you don't like me that's fine, but I suggest you get used to me. I'm not going anywhere and you're now on my radar. Have a nice day!

To the OP- I'm sorry your thread has ended up this way. This is really not as complicated of a process as it's been presented to you. I have told you very simply what you can do to fix it. You are doing the right thing by looking at your plug and reading what is going on. All you really have to remember is black=rich and white=lean. Then just jet accordingly. As you learn to jet, you will see that you can adjust jetting at different levels of RPM. Sometimes it will be lean on the top and rich on the bottom, or vice versa.

[woodyatc]

Hi again Trike saviour, i understand what your saying about an old float

I'll have a look to see if the two floats are the same and try swapping it over

Im gona try lowering the needle and if that do'es not give some improvement ? i'll try new jets and also try the 58 jet in the new carb.

All the help and imput from every body has been very insightfull and im sure its a running rich problem and now i feel pretty confident in beiong able to at least get it somewere near right ?

Thanks to all once again.

[trike savior]

i know it sucks but it helps when doing carb adjusting to do one thing at a time. so try swapping floats and run it then adjust the needle and run it. do me a favor. when you have the carb apart with the bowl off, flip it upside down and set it on a flat table so it sits on where the carb slide goes in and the top screws on. look at how the float sits ( this will represent when bowl is full and fuel is pushing up on float. instead of bouancy your using gravity). it should be on about the same plane as the flange the bowl mounts to. if it is more than that or if the float hits the carb i think we have found our problem. let me know what you find

[briano]

If you would work on your trike as much as you look for an Internet mechanic, this project would have been done 5 days ago. If its only rich at idle, don't play with the needle position. Get a rebuild kit for the stock carb and put it back on. And make sure your points are adjusted correctly, maybe even open them up just a tiny bit more than called for, that's how I have all 4 of my 70's set and they run great.

These little trikes can be a huge pain in the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro to tune in, just play around with it. What runs good on one may not work on another.

[barnett468]

Woody

I’ll try to tread lightly here and not make anyone unhappy. All I care about is helping you fix your problem. I’m sure that’s all the others care about also in the end and some are unaware of the multiple problems you had besides just jetting, this is the reason I gave you more detailed info all along. Most anyone can get you jetted easily from this point forward. I’m sure the others with short versions of jetting were simply trying to make it easier on you and not because they didn’t know the same things I do. Many non mechanic types [as you say you are] might get overwhelmed by lengthy explanations like mine but I was guessing early on that you probably wouldn’t once you read them and saw they are actually very easy if you just do one line at a time.

I personally would not change float bowls just yet simply because if you had a leaking float it would have sank by now causing it to flood and since it still seems to start easily your float is ok. The other reason is that we still don’t what the heck your other carb is and the floats etc could be different somehow. This is why trikesavior suggested you check out the floats in the new bowl. Plus not changing it saves you a step at this point.

You should still do the abbreviated choke test with the idle mix screw at around 1 1/2 out and then lower the needle and see how it drives. Then do the jets.

[trike savior]

hey barnett
i like your lengthy posts cause they are truth. the reason i want him to check the float is because the plastic ones dont fill with gas but the tabs that control its travel get weak and mainly the one controlling the float valve bends and allows the float to go up against the carb body instead of shutting off fuel before getting to that point. which would give him a rich situation. i think he ought to be right on with jetting now but the float could be letting too much fuel in the bowl.

let me know what you think

[barnett468]

Hello woody and trikesavior

I understand trikesaviors explanation here better and sure it is good advice to simply make sure the floats travel freely to the top of the spindly little rods they are attached to on any carb with a rich problem new or not.

As far as the jetting goes it should be close but your plug says it is rich however as I mentioned this may be the caused by carbon build up in the cylinder caused by your new rich carb and it may simply burn off but I would still try it and see if we can get it to produce a clean plug with out affecting performance to start with and get it to start easily with 2/3 - full choke and partial throttle.

[woodyatc]

Hi thanks for the info, i've had quite a few probs with the little trike, namely - all new ignition, new carb that was jetted way to rich, and i had to set the points above 0.4 to get it to run at all, im pretty sure now i can get the running ok in regards to the fuel / air / jetting.

[barnett468]

hello woody

what did you set them to originally? I thought it was now running with your previous point gap. You set them at .4 mm = .016 This is within spec the gap regulates the timing. spec is .012-.016 Check the timing marks also points should open when marks align.

[woodyatc]

Hi Barnett, i set the points to 0.4mm, im gona have a go at lowering the needle / jetting over the weekend when im off work, until i bought this trike 3 months ago id never realy done any mechanical work, just ridden bikes realy, if it was'nt for helpfull people / forums like these and the manual id be LOST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again.

[barnett468]

Hello

Yes that's good however you still haven't answered my rececent questions. Might be nice to know how it's starting now choke etc. I just had an epiphany, does your son rev the motor out, if so the plug should not be black howver if he rides it around slowly in too tall of a gear then the plug will be much darker. He should not bog the motor.

[woodyatc]

Hi Barnett i have'nt made any changes to the trike yet since i last started it (on the old carb rebuilt and reinstalled) thats when it started with next to no choke, it wo'nt start if it has too much choke on, but starts easialy on no choke or next to no choke, my son doe'snt over rev the engine, he usualy just rides it easy never realy go'es above third gear.

[barnett468]

Hello woody thanks

Thanks for the info. So you are saying you have started it a few times now and it is the same each time and it is ok? This would be nice to hear.

Your choke position while starting tells me that if your idle screw is out around 1 1/2 turns you need the next size smaller pilot jet a 35 as previously mentioned.

Lowering the needle and reducing the main will reduce loading up caused by him lugging the motor like he is. They don't like that.

Let's reduce the main only one size instead and drop the needle 2 positions until you install the smaller main.

AFTER INSTALLING THE SMALLER MAIN RAISE THE NEEDLE BACK UP 1 POSITION. should be perfect for him then. He will gradually rev it more in each gear as he learns which will lean it out just a bit. How about that!

Your online trike dr's are here to serve [sometimes] lol

[woodyatc]

Hi

Yeah its started a few times now (always roughly the same very little to no choke, a little revs)
idle screw is around one and a half turns out
Im gonna get on with the needle and jetting as soon as i can
Im just glad its starting and running ok again (fingers crossed it stays that way)
I'll be happier once its running less rich though, thanks again for all your help

[barnett468]

Great thanks always nice to hear back when one succeeds. If we had failed no need to bother, lol. That was a tricky one.

Drop the needle now at least or it will keep loading up the plug!

[woodyatc]

Hi

Im gonna get on with lowering the needle on the weekend, also gonna clean and reoil the air filter (would it be worth adding an addative to the fuel to help clear out the carbon build up ?) i'll get onto the jets also when they arrive, my sons gonna be out riding the little trike over the weekend so i'll report back on how its running.

Regards

Gav.

[barnett468]

Hi

Im gonna get on with lowering the needle on the weekend, also gonna clean and reoil the air filter (would it be worth adding an addative to the fuel to help clear out the carbon build up ?) i'll get onto the jets also when they arrive, my sons gonna be out riding the little trike over the weekend so i'll report back on how its running.

Regards

Gav.

Hopefully you know to use foam air filter oil not motor oil. Too much and it can't breath and will load up again. I'm afraid to add anything to it just yet but you could use just half of what the gumout bottle says etc.

[trike savior]

just gonna chime in here again and ask you to please look at the float first woody. ive had your exact same problem with one of my bikes and it was because that plastic float was wore out and hitting the carbeurator body. it will still shut off fuel so the carb wont overflow and leak but it will cause it to run rich because there is too much fuel in the bowl. i really think your jetting problem is solved by finding new carb had a 70 something jet and old a 50 something. i think the 50 jet is where you need to be. i should be playing with my bikes today ill pull the carb on the 70 and get you some info like i said i would

[woodyatc]

Hi

Im gonna pull the carb and air cleaner tomorow and have a look at both the float and the needle i'll let you know what i find.

thanks

[woodyatc]

Hi Trike saviour / Barnett

I pulled the carb ? air cleaner today

Cleaned and reinstalled the air cleaner

I checked the float as you described (and it was past the horizontal, not hitting the carb body though) so i installed the float and needle out of the new carb into the old carb, and it now sits horizontal

I also lowered the needle as described and fitted a 35 pilot jet (have'nt managed to get hold of a main jet yet

cleaned the plug and put it all back together, it start 1st pull (again on no choke) setteled to idle almost straight away, ran great.

Ran it for around 30mins then stopped and checked the plug, plug still a little on the black side but no were as near as it was, not sooty at all

so i guess its still a little bit rich ? but now starts easialy and runs great

I'll keep on the look out for a smaller main jet and see how it go'es with that

Many thanks once again for all your help and imput GREATLY APPRECIATED.

[trike savior]

sounds good glad to hear its better. one question about the no choke starting though, where do you store bike outside in cold or in your garage, cause if its in a garage chances are its warm enough and you wont need to choke it. try leaving outside overnight and then try starting it.

if its kept outside u might continue jetting

[woodyatc]

Hi trike saviour

Bike is stored in a garage.

[barnett468]

Hello Woodyatc

Trike savior asks a very good question that should be considered so I will tell you how the Mfg’s eliminate the indoor vs outdoor storage question using a painfully simple approach. Glad you got your float level set as he suggested also. I knew it wasn't "out of spec" by any great amount if any simply by your latest starting, driving and plug check tests so I didn't feel a need to bother wit it but it's good to know exactly where everything is for sure.

Here’s a very brief and incomplete explanation of how most mfg set up the choke and pilot jet settings but it should be enough info for you to understand as well as you need to.
The Mfg’s set everything to work best at approx 65 degrees [or 18.3333333 farenheit] for you guys. At 65 degrees they want ½ choke to be required for best starting. Some of the old manuals said this in the starting procedure” section. I’m sure you can figure out your pilot jetting on your own using this basic rule of thumb.

I was fortunate enough to visit Europe including London and therefore I have the advantage of knowing what your temp is this time of year [plus I looked it up on the internet to be sure. I knew there would be some difference between your garage temp and outdoor temp but also know that either way it is not 75 degrees there unfortunately for you therefore some amount of choke should be required to start it if your pilot jet was the correct size for your conditions etc.


Mr. computer says you had a high of [46 degree Fahrenheit ] 7.7777778 degree Celsius today, is this close? If so I personally would say that is a bit more on the “nippy” side than the “balmy” one. Either way your current temps are way to cold for you to be able to start your bike with no choke at all and have it instantly idle. Pretty easy deal isn’t it?

Going from a stock 58 main to a 50 is approximately a 14 percent drop in size and since your jetting now sounds extremely close I personally would just drop the one size and try it. As I mentioned yoir son will get used to revving it a little more which will cure any other rich condition caused by his current riding technique.

I also had another epiphany which is I think you should get a front [countershaft] sprocket that is just one tooth smaller. This will force the bike to turn just a few more revs and will prevent him from bogging the motor with too much throttle at too low of a speed. Sound good?

Thanks

[woodyatc]

Hi Barnett

Yeah your about spot on with the temp (had a few nite time frost recently and cold when i've been starting the trike)

Im gonna get hold of a couple of jets (one and two sizes down and try both)

I get what your saying about the sprocket size, might give that a try also

I also understand that the bike should'nt start so easialy on noke choke when cold, but is this realy a problem ?

Regards

Gav

[barnett468]

hELLO WOODYATC

If you want to jet it PROPERLY so it performs at a more OPTIMUM level and help reduce future PLUG FOULING then YES IT IS IMPORTANT and I would drop the pilot one more size and go no lower ever. Why in the world would you come this far and stop now.

It WILL be WARM there in the SUMMER and your jetting will be too RICH for the WARM weather. Ok?

The sprocket is also a great idea also.

You only have one kid riding it, don't you want to make it work as good as you possibly can for him? guilt, guilt, lol

[woodyatc]

Hi Barnett

Yeah of course i want to get it running as good as i can, and im not gonna stop until i do, i was asking if its a problem it startin on no choke and running it the way it is now ? (ie.. is it gonna cause problems if i run it as it is now until i can get a smaller main jet ?)

Ran it for around 2hrs today and it ran great no problems at all, started time after time, idled and ran spot on (still a bit rich though but i'll get on top of that)

Thanks again

[barnett468]

hello

ok i understand now. yes it is ok to ride now you will do no damage however running too rich for long will ruin the piston rings.