Couple of carb questions

[CodyRosa]

Hey everyone, I got a couple real nooby questions.. haven't touched a carb in 3 months so i kinda forgot a little bit. Please refresh my memory =)

So first question:

-Just got my wheeler fired up today for the first time sense it was all taken apart. Obviously after everything I did to it, my previous adjustments to the carb are going to be way off. So at first it blew black smoke, figured running real rich so immediately shut if off and turn the air/fuel mixture screw out 2 turns. All was good after that and I was able to ride it. Now first, 2nd gear are fine but when I "give it" in 3rd + gear it bogs down(i'm guessing to much fuel?)

-When the machines in neutral it will idle sorta.. At first it was to slow of an idle so I turned the screw in a bit and it sounded fine but then after 10 seconds it slowed back down again.. i give it some gas and she stays right where it should idle for another 10 seconds and back down again to a slow idle for maybe 30 seconds and then it'll kill.

-carb is leaking.. it appears right at the gasket but the only thing I don't understand is the carb was PERFECT when I left it.. I left it in a cold garage for 3 months until today. So i figure ok maybe the gasket cracked or something(it still looks good) so I grabbed my brand new gasket that i had laying in my room and put that on.. still leaking. Took carb off another time and tightened even more and threw a glue like substance around it just to see and nope it still leaks from that spot. Floats are not sticking and everything inside is brand new. Looks like its coming from the air/fuel mixture screw area but I could be wrong. (gas sits on that screw like water does before it drips)

-Now this last question isn't carb related but I figure I'd ask. So my Run/Off switch does nothing anymore lol.. I have headlight/taillight (don't look bright then again I checked in the daytime haha) but literately the Run and Off does nothing and its kinda scary so does anyone know where I could start to look?

Thanks everyone.

[yaegerb]

First I would ask what carb is this off of? Second I would ask have you adjusted the carb per your manual specifications? Third, do you know for a fact that the float level is set correctly and that your air screw is set to OEM specs?

Then I would ask, are the jets in the carb stock? Have you made any upgrades, like no air box lid, better air filter, better exhaust?

All necessary information.

[CodyRosa]

Ok the Carb is off a Honda 200M, Nope I have not done that yet, suppose that'd be a good thing lol. Before all gaskets on top end were blown, plus it wasn't sucking much air from airbox. All that's fixed now so its like a hole new machine to me. Yup I know for a fact the float level is correct. Everything worked perfectly after I did my carb rebuild. Nope air screw isn't OEM specs.

Jets are stock, only thing that changed is new top end gaskets(like I said they were absolutely shot before lol) AND before they rigged the airbox so it wasn't sucking air through frame.

Basically everything is stock on this machine, 200M carb, 200x frame with 200x airbox, UNI airfilter, stock 200M exhaust.

I kinda forgot this machines stock with no issues anymore so I'll try OEM specs and go from there.

Still need help on that electrical and the leaking.

[yaegerb]

what year is the 200M?

I can't help you with the electrical, but I'll see what I can do with the carb.

[CodyRosa]

The 200M carb and top end are a 1985.(top end is 200M and bottom is 185 not that it matters)

[yaegerb]

The 200M carb and top end are a 1985.(top end is 200M and bottom is 185 not that it matters)

Here you go.

http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/1985-honda-atc200m/o/m1893#sch4682

Look at part number 5 in the schematics. It appears you have an O-ring in your air/fuel mixture screw. Take yours out and verify that you do have that o-ring. If you do, I would bet its bad and you need to replace it. You can order it as a set for 16 bux from bike bandit.

Anyway, set your air/fuel screw to OEM specs, fix the o-ring if needed and let us know how it runs. Can't diagnose a carb unless its set to OEM specs ;)

[CodyRosa]

I never had an O ring, even when it was the original carb. The carb rebuild didn't even come with one. I know I put permatex in that air/fuel screw and today when I took it off it was kinda cracked. Never leaked there before :/

I guess I put some permatex in there again and if that doesn't seal it then somethings happening with the gasket.. =(

I will put everything to OEM specs tomorrow and update you =) I'm riding with a buddy tomorrow so i'll really know how it works then.

Thanks Yaegerb!

[CodyRosa]

Oh the only O ring I had was for the pilot jet.. not sure where theres even one though lol

[barnett468]

Hello

If your mix screw takes an o ring and it should. If it mounts on the SCREW the screw will have a smooth machined area for it. The o ring most likely mounts in the carb body. If you look in the body where the screw goes you will see a thin machined area where the o ring goes. If you bought a carb kit and your carb DOES take an o ring, which it should, than the carb kit is not an oem kit. Here’s what happens, some aftermarket kit mfg’s aren’t smart enough to figure out there is supposed to be an o ring in there so they don’t include one.


Get a Honda or comparable kit that includes the o ring or try to find right size at o ring supply store. It must be made from fuel resistant rubber, the hardware store ones won’t work.


Who made your kit, overseas?

[barnett468]

Ok, I’m lost, plus your bogging explanation is not clear so please answer the following.

REGARDING “BOG” – This term is not specific. If it BURBLES/SPUTTERS upon acceleration it is rich. IF it does NOT burble/sputter when throttle is applied but simply hesitates it is called a flat spot by most and is LEAN. The throttle position and condition under which the problem occurs is the area of the carb that requires adjustment, ie pilot jet, mix screw, main jet, jet needle choke height, slide cutaway etc.

Your black smoke upon initial start up may also have been from residue left in exhaust pipe, ie carbon in pipe dried out and blew out when motor was started.

Start with a new plug, check plug color after 1 hour of running.

Did you change anything since the last time it ran fine, ie pipe, carb etc?

How do you choke it to start it, ie full, half, 0 etc?

Does it have a flat spot off idle ie does it BURBLE, SPUTTER, or just doesn’t go right away?

When you have your “bog” in third does it BURBLE, SPUTTER, or just doesn’t go right away?

[CodyRosa]

When I say I didn't have an O ring.. i literately mean I didn't have an O ring haha even to begin with. This carb was never tampered with and NEVER leaked.. even with I had the carb original it never came with a O ring there. It never had any O rings on the screws. This Moose carb rebuild kit only came with a O ring for the pilot screw. I ran this carb for a few hours with no leaks. Meaning why out of no where would it leak because I don't have an O ring when it never even leaked the first 5 hours of use? lol I'll try to put some permatex in it and see if that fixes it because that's what I had in it before and it never leaked anywhere.


Ok so for the bogging, first gear and 2nd gear are ok. 2nd has a little stutter when I give it but not much.. barely noticeable. 3rd is a little worse, 4th is even worse and 5 is kinda bad lol. When I mean bog.. i mean just a stutter I guess.. not sure how to explain it? It must be just rich, but I'm going to take yaegerbs advice for now and go OEM specs, if that doesn't work we'll go from there.

Thanks Barnett

Oh and to answer your choke question: I put choke on all the way and then once its running I turn choke off. Stays running with a little bit of throttle for about 30 seconds.

[barnett468]

Hello

That helps a bit but part of my questions were not answered so it doesn’t help people much. You are still saying it ran fine, you changed nothing, now it is rich and you want to change jets. Sorry it doesn’t work that way. Your jets did not get richer from sitting in your carb. I know you said you KNOW your float level correct but if it was me I would do the following. Lower the float level a little. Per member “tri again”. You can hook up a clear hose to the drain vent hold hose up next to carb, unscrew drain screw, level in clear tube should be at or slightly lower than bottom lip of carb body at float bowl.

The term stutter is good your carb is RICH.

Is the air clean with little or no air filter oil not motor oil?

It will run rich if your float level is too high!

The term stutter is good your carb is rich.


1. Lower float level

2. If problem persists, lower carb needle by raising clip position by three or to top whichever number is less.

Your “stutter should now be significantly reduced.

Is your carb OEM Keihin or Chinese replacement. Unless it was new OEM how do you know it isn’t supposed to have o ring in the body?

CHOKE/PILOT – Try to start your bike with no choke and no or little throttle. If it starts easily on cool day pilot is too large.

[barnett468]

Hello CodyRosa

If I or many other members here were there we could likely determine all your carb problems and fix them in less than 40 minutes if we had the parts. Since we are not there we need to ask lot’s of questions to best determine the most likely cause of your problem. If one does not answer them all and do any reasonable tests requested BEFORE making some particular changes, it becomes difficult, unnecessarily time consuming and possibly impossible to help.

[Jwmajic]

If the kill switch don't work you got a bad wire or connection get out the multimeter and check continuity.

[barnett468]

IDLE/MIX SCREW O RING – I know someone here knows this for sure but until then here’s what I think it is. If the inside of the carb body absolutely positively has no GROOVE for an o ring then item #5 Yeagerb is referring to in the photo he was kind enough to take his time and post for you is a CORG sleeve. I bet if there is no o ring grove in your carb body then the first 1/8”-1/4” of the hole will be smooth with NO threads. This smooth portion of the hole will also be around 1/8” larger than the screw. This clearance is to accommodate the CORK sleeve. Without a seal of some type, air can leak past the threads on the screw causing erratic idle.

Either cork or O rings are used to seal ALL air screws on carburetors since the pre 70’s. Very few if any carb air screws use “jamb” type threads which theoretically need no seal.

Cork is never used to seal a screw in which fuel passes across it. This is why your carb float bowl drain screw has an O ring not a cork sleeve.

Did you get a CORK sleeve in your carb kit, if not there should have been?

Did you pour gas in your float bowl to see if floats may be sinking slightly?

Drain float bowl gas into glass via drain screw. See if there small bits of rust or water in it.


Still think float level may be high.

[barnett468]

Your kill switch is bad.

It is an on off switch that is hooked inline on a power wire. This means that because it does not shut the power OFF the mechanical portion of the switch is broken somehow providing it was not previously bypassed.

If you unplug either end of your kill switch while your bike is running it will die providing your wiring is correct.

Manual courtesy of kbonly. See page section 14-1
http://www.kb0nly.info/ATC/index.php?dir=ATC200M%2F

[CodyRosa]

My carbs air/fuel screw hole is threads from the top, screw is the same way with threads on the top. No with my carb specs it ran fine (plug was tan) before I tore the top end down and put new top end gasket, and changed a few things, this thing was getting a lot of air before but now the motor is normal lol. I'm sure with a shot head gasket its going to be sucking in a ton of air. So yes as my carb sits.. it would be running really rich. No need to up any jets as this motor is 100% stock. Once again i'm going with OEM specs as Yaegerb suggested. I'll even take pics of this screw so you can see no O ring.

165851165852

I will take that into suggestion and put new thread locker in there and see what happens. That's what I always had before. I checked my drain screw and there was an O ring there. Can gas travel from that drain screw all the way up to the air/fuel mixture screw? I really cant see the new gasket leaking as it worked before..

Going outside now and switching to OEM will let you guys know how it runs with the settings

[Jwmajic]

I don't know what kind of bikes your working on but mine runs just fine with out a kill switch.


Your kill switch is bad.

It is an on off switch that is hooked inline on a power wire. This means that because it does not shut the power OFF the mechanical portion of the switch is broken somehow providing it was not previously bypassed.

If you unplug either end of your kill switch while your bike is running it will die providing your wiring is correct.

Manual courtesy of kbonly. See page section 14-1
http://www.kb0nly.info/ATC/index.php?dir=ATC200M%2F

[lgordnier]

you can get rebuild kits for carbs pretty cheap. I just got one from the local yamaha shop, for my 200e - cost me $16. All new jets, o-rings, springs, needles. Only thing it didn't have were the cup screws - but I got a couple of those from the hardware store too - no leaks!

[briano]

The screw that you are holding with the spring should have a tiny washer and an oring to seal it. Do not put permatex in that hole

[muthey]

you will need a flashlight and a small pick to get in the hole for your mix screw to get the washer and what's left of the original o-ring out when you do reassemble after cleaning that are being careful to not damage the threads in there it goes o-ring washer then spring, and that is why you are leaking fuel from there the o-ring is damaged or missing.

[muthey]

also with the kill switch nine times out of ten if you take the switch assembly off and be careful when you do there will be a small metal ball and a small spring that goes under a metal slide for run and stop. If you disconnect the wires to the run stop switch the bike will always run, they ground to kill vs the newer style that grounds to run, it is an easy fix once you see what the issue is in there.

[CodyRosa]

I didn't mean permatex.. i meant thread locker and I put that on the screw today and it stopped leaking =) Now the machine bogs when in 4th when say going up a hill or anything demanding. Also runs PERFECT when cold and crappy when warm.. that's when the bogging occurs. This happened last time but I forgot how I fixed it =( I'm not on OEM specs yet as I couldn't find it in my stupid clymers. I'll look tomorrow on Kbonlys manuals.

[barnett468]

Hello

Thanks for your photos they are very good. The hole is exactly as I described it but you might not understand what I said. This hole does not have threads all the way to the top [outside]. What you think are threads are impressions made by the spring on the screw.

The photo in the manual Yeagerb supplied is muddled however according to briano he still interpreted it properly.

As I mentioned, without a seal air can leak past the screw causing irregular idle. I personally would fix it properly however I think for the moment you can use the sealer if you are determined to just make sure you remove it completely if you ever get the O ring.

I think Muthey explained your kill switch very well. It should be easy to fix with his instructions. The post I made regarding your switch problem came from information supplied in the wiring diagram illustration in the official Honda repair manual I gave the link to in my post. As he apparently experienced they’re different on later years. Sorry for any confusion.


Carb settings

1983 only 200x carb #pd62a main 110 float 5.5 pilot screw 1 3/4

1984-1985 200x carb #Pd62b main 108 float 5.5 pilot screw 2 1/4

1984-1985 200m carb #pd55a and pd5b main 95 float 5.5 pilot screw 2 1/8


BOGGING - Runs good cold, runs bad hot, means it is rich as mentioned above however there is still no explanation as to why it ran fine after you did the carb then shortly after it ran rich. Your jetting didn't change.


Hope this info helps.

[CodyRosa]

Thanks Barnett! I'll switch to those settings when I go outside. I'll let you know whenever i'm done riding =)

[Honda guy]

Ok I think so got some gasket maker trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro in the fuel screw hole so the screw isn't doing its job properly
I have ran carbs without the o ring in the hole and it still performs good. I really think its a bad idea to put gasket/ thread
locker in the fuel screw hole it might clog it. That's just me though lol

Maybe take the carb off clean it up really good with compressed air if you can.
if its stock I would go with middle clip on the needle and 1 3/4
Turns out on the fuel screw it will take some adjusting since you don't have the o ring in there you might have to turn it out more the 1 3/4 turns
Hope this helps good luck.

[CodyRosa]

So i took my carb off today so I could do factory specs.. and my carb looks like this 165890 It was silver before and the time I took it off before it looked kinda tan/brown like this.
I had my carb set to factory and it bogs on idle when i give it gas, not so much 1st but the rest are quite boggy. I turned it out to like 6 almost 7 turns and its a little better. I'll put the fuel/air mixture screw in back to 5.5 and then move that needle in the slide.

[barnett468]

hello codyrosa from my phone please excuse typos pleas do not ride bike i think gas is bad you have old gas or put new gas in tank wiith dried up tar reside from previous gas evaorating may net new gas and tank clean out bogs because gas noo longer burns well pleasse ppour soe in clear glass take photo. if itt is not clear it is bad does it look like apple juice color this ill damage motor back in aa while.... glasswonn t

[CodyRosa]

=( 165906 I'm guessing not good.. So I have to really clean that tank until the gas is clear?

[barnett468]

=( 165906 I'm guessing not good.. So I have to really clean that tank until the gas is clear?


Hello Codyrosa


Most important thing first. If that is not your own personal wine glass and it instead belongs to a woman in the house I strongly suggest you hide it or clean the evidence from it cause if they find out what you used it for you better duck, believe me I know, lol.

Xlnt job with the photo I requested, thanks.


Is this old gas like a few years and maybe you added some new gas to it?

Is this new gas poured into a dry tank?


If this is new gas poured into a dry tank then you may need to do a chemical cleaning or have it boiled out, however boiling or harsh chemicals ie lacquer thinner, acetone etc may damage paint.


Possible suggestions for cleaning below, others should have helpful ideas also.

Buy a 1/2 gallon of hardware store paint thinner [it will not damage paint], buy box of bb’s, pour thinner and bb’s into tank, install gas cap, let sit 30 minutes or more then shake. Let sit another 30 minutes, shake again and it should remove all old dried up “tar”. The “tar will always be on the bottom of tank if there is any never on upper sides etc.

Please remember as I mentioned previously ALL questions are important to people trying to help you whether you realize it or not.

Your jetting didn’t change itself your gas Is bad.


Found this novel method online.

“The way I did the gas tank on a DS-80 Suzuki I bought.. It had some rust inside.. I took the rotisserie from the grill. Mounted the little gas tank onto it. Next poured in a box of BB's. (you can buy them at Walmart in quart size boxes) Let it spin for two days.. Rinsed it out with soap and water.. It looked like new money on the inside.. Next I poured in some epoxy tank sealer.. Better then new.. Maybe someone can think of something big enough for a vair tank.”

[CodyRosa]

hahaha Barnett, Nope that glass doesn't belong to anybody thankfully, only reason I used it. This is new gas poured into this tank. I'll just have to clean it out and burn this gas for a fire i guess.

Thanks again Barnett!

[barnett468]

Hello Codyrosa


Yeah, don't use a woman's favorite cooking pan for draining oil either, lol

You gas is re-emulsifying the Jurassic goo in the bottom. This means it is still soft and should remove easily as described.

This EXACT goo contaminated gas you have now can EASILY stick rings and valve guides. It happened to me. The goo in the gas hardens when it comes into contact with heat and "welds" parts together. I had to use a 3 lb hammer to remove my goo stuck valve years ago.


PLEASE, do the following. Go to the parts store or Chevron dealer and buy some TECHRON/TECHROLINE and use it in your new gas at double the recommended amount for your first tank, use as instructions say for subsequent tanks. I would run maybe 3 tank full's minimum with this. Do not use it if you use Chevron or Texaco gas, it is already in there in small amounts.

Hope this info helps.

[CodyRosa]

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=TECHRON/TECHROLINE&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44158598,d.b2I&biw=1906&bih=926&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=ScFOUdj1Geia2AWmsYGYCA#imgrc=yzxio_r6isTYoM%3A% 3B51W1aiA3Dxh8EM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi.walmartima ges.com%252Fi%252Fp%252F00%252F02%252F39%252F68%25 2F38%252F0002396838726_500X500.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252 F%252Fwww.walmart.com%252Fip%252FChevron-Techron-Concentrate-Plus-10-oz%252F16647989%3B500%3B500

Buy that and put it in NEW gas after CLEANING the tank right? Use DOUBLE what it says per gallon or however they do it. Will this hurt anything if I use it after the machine is clean? Say it's clean after one use and I use it 3 times, it wont do any bad right? I've never used anything like sea foam or this before.

Thank you! Once I get some extra money i'll buy that and clean my tank.

[barnett468]

Hello CodyRosa


Buy that and put it in NEW gas after CLEANING the tank right?

YES, the EXACT one you want is linked at the bottom of the screen. All Techron is the same just different size containers.


Use DOUBLE what it says per gallon or however they do it.

YES but for one tank only!


Will this hurt anything if I use it after the machine is clean?

NO, You can use it till kingdom come if you like, but again not if you use chevron or texaco gas you can probably cut down to 1/2 recomended amount after three tanks in your particular case it or simply discontinue it's use altogether.


Say it's clean after one use and I use it 3 times, it wont do any bad right?

NO


I've never used anything like sea foam or this before.

I STRONGLY discourage the use of sea foam in any instance where the same gas will be used after a period of 30-45 days ONLY if that gas has ETHANOL in it which most winter gas blends do. It will say on the gas pump as to whether it has ethanol and how much.


Thank you! Once I get some extra money i'll buy that and clean my tank.

It should be around $10.00 maybe.


TECHRON LINK

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N3232/large/7080568_chv_65740_pri_larg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_techron-concentrate-fuel-system-cleaner-(20-oz-)-chevron_7080568-p&usg=__4L31ucTgbihDEN6WGZ9rNQ0bwqo=&h=450&w=450&sz=31&hl=en&start=8&zoom=1&tbnid=zZta7ZHmeWJ-8M:&tbnh=127&tbnw=127&ei=tM5OUdazILTeyAHO4oGIDw&um=1&itbs=1&sa=X&ved=0CDoQrQMwBw

DON'T, DON'T, DON'T, RIDE IT TILL GAS IS CLEAN OK?


This was one of my questions from way back in post 13, do you remember it now?

Drain float bowl gas into glass via drain screw. See if there small bits of rust or water in it.


I'm lad it was a simple problem with an inexpensive fix albeit a very long road to find it.

[barnett468]

Hello CodyRosa


The purpose of the Techron in your case is to remove any ”Jurassic goo’ that may have started forming on your rings and valve’s etc before it hardens and becomes a potential problem.

[just ben]

Very interesting read. I believe The answer to the "bogging" lies in an area other than the carb. Think back to what you did to the machine. You say all you did was change some gaskets and route the air intake to go through the frame. The answer seems very obvious to me.... Maybe there was a reason the intake wasn't connected to the frame? most likely a nest of some sort in the frame,probably from mice or bees. disconnect the intake from the frame or take the airbox lid off and see how it runs, if it runs as it did before the repairs clear out the frame.

[CodyRosa]

Just Ben, the reason they rerouted it was because they lost the carb to airbox boot, the 1 foot long one. I had to get another one. I did try running without the lid and airfilter and it didn't run very good.