Do you even run??

[lgordnier]

So I picked up my '82 200E about a year and a half ago now. Last fall, i lost spark while putting around - so I decided it was time to rebuild.
Popped the head off, replaced all the gaskets, coils, bearings, gas tank and forks, and put a new DG pipe on it - since the old one was rusted out.
But this is the funny part. You have to see this cam that I yanked out. I'm not even sure how this thing was running! haha
165856
I did notice brand new rings and what appeared to be a new piston in there, when I ripped it apart. The guy I got it from said he had done just enough work to it, to get it running. It was in pretty poor shape, the front forks were held together by chain. So i'm wondering if someone just forgot to check theirwork after running for a while. I guess it may be partly my fault as well, since I ran it a few times (for an hour here and there) before checking anything.
I never did check all the tolerances of the valves and springs and all that fun stuff while i was in there, this is pretty much my first small-engine rebuild
Anyone else ever have this issue with a cam going out so badly? Maybe you've got a better idea what would have caused this? :wondering
And just for you tl;dr people, i'm NOT running with this, this is in a scrap metal pile now!

[JasonB]

is there a lobe COMPLETELY missing from the cam?! thats intense! never seen that before. how did the rest of the head look? you would think with the debris from that coming apart there would have been some pretty extensive engine damage

[fabiodriven]

It is amazing that machine would even run!

[lgordnier]

well I found quite a bit of shavings on the flywheel, no surprise there. The guy did mention changing the oil several times, but never mentioned what the oil looked like :twisted:

[kebby28]

My 200es looked just like that and it was running fine just so hot it was burning my jeans. My oil screen was clogged with pieces of gasket. I bought the lower end of a kid and put my nice head on it... The lobes were round and it ran!

[trike savior]

yeah that happens. seen that on a 110 and recently on my 200x. take a good look at the cam journal on the cylinder head. if the lobes were that bad chances are the journal is bad too. that is what actually causes you to loose spark. the journal wears and the cam, and the spark advancer and magnet move farther and farther away from the pickup coil. eventually it moves far enough away that the magnet becomes too weak to be read by the pickup coil. there is a certain amount of gap (can find measurement in service manual) that you want but too much causes you too loose spark. there are 2 sets of screws on the pickup coil mounting plate. 1 moves the whole plate which is what allows you to change ignition timing and the 2nd adjust the height of the pickup coil. if you can move the pickup coil all the way down (closer to camshaft) and still cant get the proper gap, you need a new head.

[trike savior]

also check your rockers because they are likely damaged as well. also check your oil pump and the passage ways to the head. tolerances for the oil pump are in service manual as well

[barnett468]

Hello igordnier


Cam failures are most typically caused by using oils without the proper amounts of zddp. It’s an additive that contains zinc and phosphorous, which is specifically designed for use in all non roller cam 4 stroke motors. If you have been using regular automotive full mineral based motor oil like valvoline, penzoil etc this will cause premature wear on a non roller cam. The best anti wear protection is provided by oils containing levels of zzdp in the 1800ppm range. These are found in most full mineral based automotive racing motor oils like Valvoline VR1. The problem started when the oil mfgs began reducing the levels of zddp in their oils to keep up with the increasingly stringent EPA standards after the advent of the catalytic converter. The zddp contaminates the convertor. The problem is that they never told the general public so you think you are buying the same old school valvoline you were 30 years ago but your not.


Valvoline motorcycle oil

http://www.valvoline.com/products/brands/valvoline/motorcycle-atv-oil/13


MSDS

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/4_stroke_motorcycle.pdf

[lgordnier]

there are 2 sets of screws on the pickup coil mounting plate. 1 moves the whole plate which is what allows you to change ignition timing and the 2nd adjust the height of the pickup coil. if you can move the pickup coil all the way down (closer to camshaft) and still cant get the proper gap, you need a new head.

Is this the same coil you're talking about? I didn't have much luck trying to use the second set of screws to move the head up and down - there's not any slack for the head to move around on - makes sense though.
165884
My loss of spark was from a bad stator exciter coil - down in the flywheel. It tested bad when I got it home and started ripping things apart. I ended up replacing the generator coil, pickup coil and ignition coil anyway, found some decently priced replacements on eBay - now I have a few working backups =D

Thank you for your input, all.
barnett468 - thank you for your explanation about the non-roller rockers. I knew there was something in there for that, but didn't know what! Learned something new in the first few hours of the day, awesome!

[Gator72007]

Hello igordnier


Cam failures are most typically caused by using oils without the proper amounts of zddp. It’s an additive that contains zinc and phosphorous, which is specifically designed for use in all non roller cam 4 stroke motors. If you have been using regular automotive full mineral based motor oil like valvoline, penzoil etc this will cause premature wear on a non roller cam. The best anti wear protection is provided by oils containing levels of zzdp in the 1800ppm range. These are found in most full mineral based automotive racing motor oils like Valvoline VR1. The problem started when the oil mfgs began reducing the levels of zddp in their oils to keep up with the increasingly stringent EPA standards after the advent of the catalytic converter. The zddp contaminates the convertor. The problem is that they never told the general public so you think you are buying the same old school valvoline you were 30 years ago but your not.


Valvoline motorcycle oil

http://www.valvoline.com/products/brands/valvoline/motorcycle-atv-oil/13


MSDS

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/4_stroke_motorcycle.pdf



I have wondered this about our trikes but havent seen it mentioned here like in auto forums, i ran an additive (zinc) from comp cams in a old flat tappet cammed truck i had for these cam issues, seen lots of guys loose cams that didnt run it in autos.

I have some of this zinc additive left, is it ok to run in trikes?
wont harm the clutches?

[kb0nly]

I have been running standard old automotive grade oil in my trikes and atv's for 20+ years and never had a cam or rockers burn up. So i highly doubt its just the oil at work. The zddp additive is another one of those snake oil products that i don't put much stock in. I have a snowblower with a Tecumseh engine on it, 1973 model, its run nothing but standard automotive grade oil its whole life, sure back in the day it had some additive in it by nature of the oil being sold, but for the last 20 years of its life its been off the shelf 5w-30 motor oil in it. I tore the motor down two years ago and there was no cam or tappet wear beyond normal use.

I have also torn apart many of the Honda trike motors, and i have never paid extra for motorcycle oil, no issues due to "regular" oil. I run Castrol GTX which is a synthetic blend. My 200ES shifts so much smoother since running GTX in it, it had Havoline in it from the previous owner, it always slipped slowly into gear or would clunk hard into gear, i tried adjusting it many times, then did a oil change to GTX because its what i had on the shelf for all my small engines. What a difference, smooth as silk and quick shifts now.

[C.J]

^ +2 about snake oil. I run nothing but 20w-50 in ALL my machines, ATV or lawn equipment etc, and have never had any kind of problems.

[trike savior]

I agree. I run straight 30 weight in all my small engines and never had a problem. (sae 30 not 10w30)

after thinking about it both engines I found with the cams looking like that, had been assembled with gasket maker. which I think blocked up the oil passages to the head. I don't mind gasket maker for covers and what not, but not on cylinder and head mounting surfaces. always fresh gaskets in those areas.

and before I had tools to check oil pumps myself I took them to dealer to be checked. they even said they very rarely see a bad oil pump. like 1% of the time. they are so simple on these bikes they practically last forever.

[fabiodriven]

I have been running standard old automotive grade oil in my trikes and atv's for 20+ years and never had a cam or rockers burn up.

For those of you recommending running automotive oil in trikes, you are dead wrong.

I've never seen any rocker or engine damage result from using automotive oil in a trike engine, but that's not the issue. The issue with using automotive oil in any engine with a wet clutch is, well, the clutch. Automotive oil does not have the proper additives to support a wet clutch. This is not my opinion, this is fact.

[kebby28]

I agree, but I have never found a gasket for the valve/cam cover on the 200 motors. It says in the manual to use gasket maker but warns of getting it in the oil port next to the backside of the cam. I was also confused about the little rubber plug next to the camshaft and couldn't find any info on it anywhere so I decided that was just where they had to drill to make the port and the plug has to be in. I was so confused because it almost looked like hardened gasket maker and it gave me that feeling of "oh, thats why the top end is smoked" but... that wasn't the case.

[fabiodriven]

I agree, but I have never found a gasket for the valve/cam cover on the 200 motors. It says in the manual to use gasket maker but warns of getting it in the oil port next to the backside of the cam. I was also confused about the little rubber plug next to the camshaft and couldn't find any info on it anywhere so I decided that was just where they had to drill to make the port and the plug has to be in. I was so confused because it almost looked like hardened gasket maker and it gave me that feeling of "oh, thats why the top end is smoked" but... that wasn't the case.

I may be missing your point, but what does that have to do with using automotive oil in a trike?

[Matt O.]

Hondas never die!!!

[hondawasaki]

The cams are hardened, but only on the surface. Once the hardened surface is worn off, (usually due to the oil breaking down) the rest of the cam material goes very fast. We see it all the time in the auto industry. It is amazing that the engine still runs, but not surprising.

[barnett468]

I have wondered this about our trikes but havent seen it mentioned here like in auto forums, i ran an additive (zinc) from comp cams in a old flat tappet cammed truck i had for these cam issues, seen lots of guys loose cams that didnt run it in autos.

I have some of this zinc additive left, is it ok to run in trikes?
wont harm the clutches?



Hello Gator 72007


Below are the answers to your questions plus some more detailed information I thought you might find interesting.

xxxxx

“I have wondered this about our trikes but havent seen it mentioned here like in auto forums,”

Even after the automotive flat cam crisis of around 10 years ago which I was inadvertently involved in with Comp cam’s, it is still only known outside the professional automotive and oil mfg industry primarily by just SOME knowledgeable automotive hobbyists and 4 stroke motor cycle racers etc.

xxxxx

“i ran an additive (zinc) from comp cams in a old flat tappet cammed truck i had for these cam issues, seen lots of guys loose cams that didnt run it in autos.”

Yes I explained the cause of this in my previous post as you have read.

xxxxx

“I have some of this zinc additive left, is it ok to run in trikes?”

Not a simple question. It depends upon the additional additives in your particular brand of ZDDP and EXACTLY what the chemical components are of the oil you are mixing it with. I has been determined by Mobil 1 if I remember correctly that all grands of ZDDP do not mix with all types of oil well contrary to what many first believed. In general though it is pretty safe primarily in non synthetic motor oils for sure.

xxxxx

“won’t harm the clutches?”

As you can see by the specs below, both Valvoline VR1 Automotive and VR1 Motorcycle oil’s have ZDDP in them, so according to them, no it won’t harm your clutch. You can call their hotline to have them explain anything you want about oil, it’s pretty cool. You will notice the zinc/phosphorous levels in the motorcycle oil are slightly lower than the levels in the automotive version, I do not know why. The levels shown below in the automotive version are purported to be from 2011. Valvoline claims this blend is obsolete and their new blend of it actually contains slightly less levels of zinc @ .13% and phosphorous @ .12%. I do not know why they did this either. Their VR1 Automotive “not street legal” oil is synthetic and currently has. 14% zinc and 13% phosphorous.

xxxxx

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION


DOES MOTOR OIL BREAK DOWN? – The accurate question is yes but this is answer does not fully explain what really happens. Valvoline’s explanation as to why automotive engine oil breaks down is accurate but again incomplete. There are some articles by others that go further in explaining this break down process by saying that natural oil from the ground that is used in automotive oil actually never really breaks down unless it reaches a temperature that causes it to do so. They say this temperature is actually typically never reached in most automotive applications. It is the additives they add to the oil like the ZDDP and detergents etc that break down or wear out if you will and not the actual oil itself. This is EXACTLY the reason they can reclaim used automotive oil and resell it for automotive use. They basically clean it then re-infuse hydrogen back into it to make it suitable for use as a base for the production of automotive oil, pretty cool again.

Valvoline can answer any questions you have regarding this topic also.


Below is an excerpt from an article by Scientific American from an interview done with engineers Joseph Franceschi and James Condela of Universal Lubricants, which just completed a 45.4 million liter refinery in Wichita, Kans., to convert used oil into usable motor oil.

“We clean that used oil by using pretty conventional refinery technologies. One of them is vacuum distillation, which dewaters the oil. Used motor oil comes with somewhere between 5 and 7 percent water in it. The first thing you have to do is get the water out of it.

Then we do wiped-film evaporation. This essentially separates out all the contaminants and additives that are put into passenger car motor oils. Then after that, we go through a hydrotreating process that gets up to 700 degrees Fahrenheit and 1,100 [pounds per square inch]. That infuses hydrogen back into the hydrocarbon molecules and makes it a very high quality re-refined oil.

If you're thinking of it in a very simple way, we're filtering the used oil with very sophisticated technologies and processes.”

xxxxx

CAN YOU RUN AUTOMOTIVE ENGINE OIL WITH LOW OR NON EXISTENT LEVELS OF ZDDP IN A WET CLUTCH MOTORCYCLE ENGINE WITHOUT CAUSING CLUTCH DAMAGE?


EXCERPTS FROM AMSOIL WET CLUTCH TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN PASTED BELOW SEE FULL BULLETIN FOR FURTHER INFORMATION

“Improper driver operation: Motorcycle and manual ATV
clutch operation requires human control which can impact
performance and life of the clutch. Excess slippage as a result
of continually riding the clutch or improper engagement
can lead to excessive wear and reduced frictional plate life.
It can also promote plate glazing resulting in even more slippage.
11. Use of an incorrect fluid: As mentioned previously, not all
lubricants are suitable for use in wet-clutch applications.
Those containing materials such as friction modifiers or
extreme-pressure additives can promote clutch slippage,
eventually shortening the life of the clutch. Lubricants formulated
specifically for wet-clutch applications provide varied
performance. Using an oil that is more viscous (thicker)
than recommended, for example, can result in higher operating
temperatures and sluggish [sticking] plate release.”

“Lubrication-related wet-clutch issues stem more from
additive chemistry than the base oil used in the lubricant. Therefore,
general statements suggesting synthetic oils somehow offer
less compatibility are generalizations based on a flawed hypothesis.
Keys to selecting the correct oil for use in wet-clutch applications
include:

1. Ensuring the oil meets the JASO and ISO frictional
requirements set forth by the equipment manufacturer.

2. Making sure the oil can provide high-temperature and oxidation
stability.

3. Checking that the oil offers shear stability and controls
foaming.

4. Using the oil with the correct viscosity (grade) recommended
by the equipment manufacturer.

Use of the proper oil will ensure maximum clutch life and
improved operation and performance.”


AMSOIL WET CLUTCH TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN

http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/smallengine/tsb%20se-2008-01-01%20wet-clutch%20operation%20and%20lubrication%20requireme nts.pdf

xxxxx

IS ZDDP “SNAKE OIL” – Again I will not offer an opinion here but will simply relay a little info on the subject. It has been scientifically proven by hundreds of wear tests that not only the oil companies do but also independent unbiased agencies like the Automotive Society of Engineers and several other independent scientific testing labs that ZDDP does in the proper amounts does in fact significantly reduce wear on mechanical parts. I’ll try to find a couple articles regarding this and post them in a day or so. It’s actually easy to do on one’s own by simply entering “zddp camshaft” or “zddp test” into your computers search engine.

This being said too much of a good thing is not such a good thing either as it has also been determined that levels of ZDDP above .14% can over the long term cause engine damage due mainly to the phosphorous however I don’t remember exactly what this long term is but the funny thing is that I think it was significantly longer than the test part lasted in the test using oil without zddp, lol. The fact that zddp does increase is is consistent a remember this. O

GM BULLETIN – For those of you that have read the GM bulletin titled “debunking oil myths” I have also read it and for those in the know it is clearly riddled with incomplete statements [only partial selective information] regarding primarily ZDDP and Synthetic oil. There are many scientific test results that more completely explain the proven benefits and/or of these particular items. Once thoroughly informed it is clear that for some reason GM had some sort of agenda that as of yet is unknown to me.

The fact that it conspicuously omits several documented facts such as the one I referred to in the “SNAKE OIL” section above seems to have disqualified it from being an article that would be considered “truly scientific” which are “supposed’ to be [complete” and unbiased], in many scientists eyes. Furthermore these glaring omissions automatically disqualify it from being eligible for publication in any “peer reviewed” scientific magazines.

xxxxx

CURRENT VALVOLINE CONVENTIONAL MOTOR OIL – As you can see by the spec sheet below Valvoline currently does have ZDDP in it however it is obviously in what is considered a significantly reduced amount when compared to their VR1 racing oil which actually has the same amount ZDDP they used to have in their standard non specialty oil prior to around 74. They recommend this oil for use in Roller Cam Catalytic Convertor motors only due to it’s reduced anti wear properties compared to their racing oils.

If I remember correctly the level of ZDDP in this newest blend of oil is actually higher than it previously was. Unfortunately I no longer have access to those older spec sheets to evaluate the previous level for comparison. They can tell you for sure if you want to call.

xxxxx

CAN I USE STANDARD AUTOMOTIVE OIL IN MY NON ROLLER CAM MOTOR – Absolutely, many people have without what they might realize are the adverse effects of doing so such as premature engine wear etc.

The problem for me is that I personally think that, that is not the best question to ask but instead think the question [which most people I personally know], ask anyway is, “Which oil will is the best to use in my particular engine and why?”

Just because one has run a standard automotive oil with either low or non existent levels of ZDDP with “no” problems is in no way scientific proof that it is the best oil to use in a non roller wet clutch motorcycle. It’s simply proof that one has done this without “obvious” problems and nothing more.

Simply to assume that because one has not experienced any problems doing this over the long haul in no way proves that if in fact one had used an oil with the oil companies recommended levels of ZDDP for non roller motors that their motor would not have less internal wear due to those levels of ZDDP that have been scientifically proven to reduce engine wear, subsequently significantly increasing an engines life.

xxxxx

Sorry the following didn't cooy properly but one can still see the zinc and phosphorous levels in each.


VALVOLNE VR1 NON SYNTHETIC
MOTORCYCLE OIL 20-40 20-50
Vis @ 100°C (cSt) 15.2 20.0
Vis @ 40°C (cSt) 104.1 169.4
Viscosity Index 155 124
Spec Gravity @ 60°F 0.8732 0.8848
Density (lbs/gal) 7.28 7.38
Total Base No. 8 8
Flash COC (°C) 216 230
Pour Point (°C) max -30 -24
CCS cP (°C) 6200(-250C) 8400(-150C)
MRV TP-1 cP (°C) 38000(-300C) 28000(-200C)
Noack % off @ 250°C 15.0 7.3
Sulfated Ash, wt.% 0.80 0.80
Zinc/Phosphorus, wt.% 0.112/0.103 0.112/0.103
Calcium/Sodium, wt.% 0.182/0.052 0.182/0.52



VALVOLINE VR1 NON SYNTHETIC AUTOMOTIVE OIL
Test 10W-30 20W-50
Vis @ 100°C (cSt) 11.5 20.5
Vis @ 40°C (cSt) 77.0 181.8
Viscosity Index 143 132
Spec Gravity @ 60°F 0.8722 0.888
Density (lbs/gal) 7.27 7.39
Total Base No. 8.5 8.5
Flash COC (°C) 212 248
Pour Point (°C) -33 -24
CCS cP (°C) 6200(-25C) 8000(-15C)
MRV TP-1 cP (°C) 20,000(-30C) 27,000(-20C)
Noack % off @ 250C <15 <15
Sulfated Ash 1 1
Zinc/Phosphorus 0.14/0.13 0.14/0.13
Calcium 0.210 0.210
Sodium 0.049 0.049




CURRENT VALVOLINE CONVENTIAL MOTOR OIL FOR NEW CARS

Approvals/Performance Levels Viscosity Grade/Other
API SN/SM SAE 5W-20 SAE 5W-30 SAE 10W-30
ILSAC GF-5 & GF-4 SAE 5W-20 SAE 5W-30 SAE 10W-30
Resource Conserving SAE 5W-20 SAE 5W-30 SAE 10W-30
FORD WSS-M2C946-A - - - - - - - - SAE 5W-30 - - - - - - - -
FORD WSS-M2C945-A SAE 5W-20 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
GM 6094M ** - - - - - - - - SAE 5W-30 SAE 10W-30
Chrysler MS-6395 SAE 5W-20 SAE 5W-30 SAE 10W-30
Honda Feb. 2001 Spec. SAE 5W-20 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Test SAE 5W-20 SAE 5W-30 SAE 10W-30
Vis @ 100°C (cSt) 8.5 11.0 10.5
Vis @ 40°C (cSt) 50.0 63.0 69.7
Viscosity Index 146 168 137
Spec Gravity @ 60°F 0.861 0.861 0.871
Density (lbs/gal) 7.18 7.18 7.26
Total Base No. 7.3 7.3 7.3
Flash COC (°C) 220 220 216
Pour Point (°C) max -42 -42 -36
CCS cP (°C) 6100(-30°C) 6100(-30°C) 5900(-25°C)
MRV TP-1 cP (°C) 20,000(-35°C) 25,000(-35°C) 20,000(-30°C)
Noack % off @ 250°C <14.5 <14.5 <14.5
Sulfated Ash 0.80 0.80 0.80
Zinc/Phosphorus 0.083/0.076 0.083/0.076 0.083/0.076
Calcium/Sodium 0.167/0.049 0.167/0.049 0.167/0.049


Gator72007 hope this info helps.

[barnett468]

Sorry post correction. The second Valvoline oil listed is actually their Synthetic VR1 "not for street use" oil, not "non synthetic" as posted. I have no edit button on my screen for the site.

[barnett468]

Hello Gator72007


My previous post has a couple typos I hadn’t noticed when I posted it however I have no ability to edit my posts so I can’t correct it. Sorry.

I also noticed I missed a category so I will include it below.


CAN OLD OIL CAUSE ENGINE DAMAGE – Yes, in general it certainly can since as mentioned previously the additives in the oil break down/wear out etc reducing it’s friction reducing properties and also by allowing moisture to accumulate in it etc. It also gets contaminated from material worn off of internal parts and from contaminates created by the combustion process etc.


HOW OFTEN SHOULD I CHANGE MY OIL – In the case of an ATV, the safest thing to do is simply change it every year no matter how much you ride it. This gets rid of any moisture that might have accumulated in it especially in wet, humid or cold climates etc. This includes things like riding it through streams mud bogs etc.