185s troubleshoot cold start please

[Coopart1]

ok...got a 185s 1983, not bad shape, worth fixin up...bought a china carb and have the bike running real good WHEN I CAN GET IT TO START!!!! here is some back ground...work on it in the evening, it starts ok but not real easy,,lots of fiddling with the choke (its really warm in the evenings now were i live) so i tinker with the carb look for air leaks...etc..etc..shut it off, restart on one pull /im happy/ go to bed wake up 40 degree temp in the morning cant get it to start/stay running for nothing! that evening starts up fairly easy again...shut it off cleaned ALL electrical contacts checked resistance..seemed kinda low on the coil (front part) started up..seemed to idle and throttle up much smoother! yea!!...not so fast buddy...this morning...same thing...cant keep it running enough to warm up..WHAT THE HELL!!!! lol...ok so could valves out of adjustment be an issue here? thats the one thing i have not attempted yet...cold effect this? i ordered a new coil this morning.....all imput very much WANTED !!!

[Worden18]

I had/have the same problem with mine. Same machine, same year. I put on a Chinese carb (machine runs really good when warmed up); until I can find the time to rebuild the old one.

My coil went out first, replaced it. Immediately after that, the stator went. Replaced that. Finally got it running again; although it STILL starts hard cold. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is, although the resistance on the stator seems a little lower than what it should be.

My solution? I put a space heater right next to the engine for a minimum of 15 min before I ride. Starts right up! :D Otherwise, it just starts hard, and I don't feel like pulling my shoulder out, so....space heater it is; even when it's 40 degrees.

Also, you may want to take out your petcock and clean it. Check for sh*t in the gas tank while you're at it...

Before I put on the chinese carb the damn thing started just as hard. We'll see how it does after a rebuild of the original.

[bumsted200s]

I to have purchased these chinese carbs once before, experianced same things you have. Yes adjusting things here or there works. My suggestion is find a 185S or 200S carb and just buy a carb rebuild kit off denniskirk.com or eBay. Simply isn't worth the headache.



my wheelers
'81 200 (5 wheeler)
'82 200 Hondapotomous
'82 250R
'82 185S
'84 200S
'85 200S
'85 200X

[Coopart1]

so from your experiences...you still think its the carb? ok...i wont rule that out...it is after all a china carb. But something tells me it has to do with weak spark or maybe metal shrinking while cold ...valves? might try checking compression when its real cold? i don't freakin know...if it was not so much fun to ride woulda put it back on craigslist!!! but it is a cool little trike...:D

[Worden18]

so from your experiences...you still think its the carb? ok...i wont rule that out...it is after all a china carb. But something tells me it has to do with weak spark or maybe metal shrinking while cold ...valves? might try checking compression when its real cold? i don't freakin know...if it was not so much fun to ride woulda put it back on craigslist!!! but it is a cool little trike...:D

Did you check the primary and secondary specs on the new coil you put on? I bought a new one that was bad. Had to send it back and get a replacement. Just sayin'. Did you check the ohms readout on the stator? Should be 240 or really close. What color is your spark; have you looked at it?

Yeah, I agree that these replacement carbs have issues. I need to get a kit for the original. Weird thing is, mine runs excellent when it's finally warm.

[yaegerb]

Here's a trick I use sometimes. Don't know if you have tried this yet. On first pull, choke is on and hold the throttle wide open. On second pull, choke still on and no throttle. It should act likes its trying to start or will start. Once, or if you smell fuel, choke off and it should fire right up. Also, I agree that those chinese carbs are junk. Need to get an OEM and rebuild it.

[Coopart1]

ok..i do have original carb, i will get a good kit for it, coil was just ordered today, but it sounds like from you fellas its still a carb issue or maybe stator ....don't ya just hate being in this place !! we all been there i guess. but i hate to loose about as much as i like this trike so off to the shop again i go...this evening..check those specs on the generator ....

[Worden18]

ok..i do have original carb, i will get a good kit for it, coil was just ordered today, but it sounds like from you fellas its still a carb issue or maybe stator ....don't ya just hate being in this place !! we all been there i guess. but i hate to loose about as much as i like this trike so off to the shop again i go...this evening..check those specs on the generator ....

Things beyond regular maintenance are going to happen to these machines...they're old. Just take it one step at a time and you'll get it. Don't let it beat you :D

[ncorry]

Well hell. I've got a 1984 200ES that I recently picked up. It has the original carb I think, but was so gummed up when I got it that I broke a piece off the float when removing the float valve. Had to pry the throttle out. Now I have a brand new shiny Chinese carb just delivered today. After reading this, I'm thinking about just using the parts out of the new one to rebuild the old one, but on the old one, the main jet post is kind of beat up and the plastic round thing that goes around it rides pretty rough against the surface of the main jet post.

Opinions?

[jermtoad]

I had an 82 that was the same way i called it s. o. a. b " son of a b#%&/" try giveing it the honda shake. just kinda shake around a bit before you pull the cord it works good for me.

[CodyRosa]

Yup.. my chinese one didn't work for crap either.. never ran good, never idled even when warm.. You know how I fixed it? lol sent that hunk of JUNK back and bought a moose carb rebuilt kit for my OEM one. Now to start my machine I just put choke all the way on, throttle open all the way and pull, mine fires up right away then I shut choke off and it idles. Before I took my machine apart and put new gaskets on top and whatever else i did I had to start with choke(3rd pull always) then hold throttle down just enough to sound like it was idling on its own, just for about 30 seconds.

EDIT: Ncorry , Send that chinese one back and buy this : http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOOSE-CARB-REBUILD-KIT-HONDA-ATC200ES-BIG-RED-1984-MD03027-/390457515566?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ae914de2e&vxp=mtr

[barnett468]

Hello


Sounds like your carb is extremely lean on the pilot jet.

Once running set the fuel mixture screw until you have max idle rpm. Turn it in and out to find it. If it is already close you pilot jet is too small and needs to go up 2 sizes. Your main jet may also be 1 size small. Your float level may also be slightly low.

Once warm does it have any flat spots under acceleration from any speed?

1. Get new plug if yours is not white or light tan.

2. Lay plug on head, if spark is strong and pale blue good, if it is weak and pale yellow bad.

3. Check float level

4. Install 2 size larger pilot

5. Adjust fuel mix screw for highest idle.

6. Readjust idle set screw on side of carb.

7. Ride for 1 hour tell us what color plug is. White is too lean needs bigger main, light to med tan is ideal, dark tan or DRY black is too rich. If plug is wet at all after riding it is oil.


Hope this info helps.

[ncorry]

Yup.. my chinese one didn't work for crap either.. never ran good, never idled even when warm.. You know how I fixed it? lol sent that hunk of JUNK back and bought a moose carb rebuilt kit for my OEM one. Now to start my machine I just put choke all the way on, throttle open all the way and pull, mine fires up right away then I shut choke off and it idles. Before I took my machine apart and put new gaskets on top and whatever else i did I had to start with choke(3rd pull always) then hold throttle down just enough to sound like it was idling on its own, just for about 30 seconds.

EDIT: Ncorry , Send that chinese one back and buy this : http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOOSE-CARB-REBUILD-KIT-HONDA-ATC200ES-BIG-RED-1984-MD03027-/390457515566?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ae914de2e&vxp=mtr

Hey Cody- Thanks for the link, but I also need a float. The plastic one in my (I think) original carb snapped a little piece off, and the float in the Chinese carb is completely different than the original one so I can't just swap them out. The carb that I think is original has made in Japan and a serial number (maybe part number) on the side of it. Is that normal?

[Coopart1]

ok..posting again on this thread to fallow up..first its hard for all of us to diagnosis each others issues from afar..but all good advice and all reasonable!! so to settle this ONE here is what i did last night..i adjusted the valves ...exhaust was a little to loose and intake was WAY to tight! never expected to find that...one of the reasons i delayed that adjustment was i did not hear any tapping...so took a late night ride after ward and ran freakin awesome!! i must have looked like wolvarine when he stole that other guys bike in xmen....well anyway i DO now need a minor adjustment on the carb still but STARTED WITH JUST A COUPLE PULLS THIS MORNING!!!! YEA!! AS for the china carbs...my report is this..mine came with needle on third notch..i moved it up one...bottom pilot screw was three turn out when i got it...turned it in to two...I went back and set it back to third notch and tuned the pilot by ear....(turn in till idle changes...then turn out till idle changes...set it in the middle) and honestly i think the china carb for now is just fine..so NCCORY hope this info helps you too with your big red...CHEERS!!

[kb0nly]

The chinese carbs are perfectly fine, usually you will find something else that is causing the problem. Sounds like your 185 is getting there now. A hint on these carbs, pull the bowl off and compare the jet sizes with your original. I have used about a dozen of the chin carbs now, no problem whatsoever, but on a few of them the jet size wasn't right so i took the jets from the stock carb and put them in and no more issues. Also when you replace a carb you have to make sure you get a good seal to the head, gasket or o-rings should be replaced and the rubber intake should be gone over carefully to check for cracking, get an air leak and it will drive you nuts, been there done that.

ncorry - That carb will do fine on your 200ES, i have one on mine as well. Just compare the jet sizes, and make sure the needle clip is in the right position and then adjust the mixture screw and read your spark plug to see if its too lean or too rich and get it set good! Mine purrs like a content kitten.

The only place i disagree with rebuilding the original carbs is your only replacing a few parts and not the root of the problem. The biggest issue i see with these slide carbs is the slide bore gets worn to the point that the slide is loose and you get extra air past it, which means you have to crank up the fuel to get the mixture right. I had one that i had to rejet, move the needle, adjust the mixture screw, and it still ran like crap. As the carb warmed up the carb would go all over the place mixture wise, as it got cold it would go back, so i would get it good and warmed up and adjust it again, but then it wouldn't start for crap because it was set too lean when cold and the slide was loose.

Finally put a cheap chin carb on it, five minutes to adjust and it ran perfect ever since.

[Coopart1]

i'll take that advise...on the jets. i never opened the bowl on the china carb but would be a good idea to see if different jets are installed..from the OEM. THANKS! and yes...its gettin there!

[barnett468]

Hello Coopart1

If it accelerates from any speed without hesitations [lean] or without "burbling/sputtering" then your jetting is very close. You need to check plug color at that point to fine tune jetting if you desire. If it runs fine and plug color is good as I previously described you do not need to rejet it to oem specs, this may cause.problems. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Glad my previous suggestions helped.


Hope this new info helps.

[barnett468]

"burbling/sputtering" = rich

Based upon your new cold start description and idle screw setting your pilot jet is ideal for your conditions.


sorry i have no edit button

[Coopart1]

not to keep a dead thread alive, just an update....yes i agree with your advise, i might just leave it alone (the jet) got home late (because i went and bought another 3 wheeler!) set the pilot another 1/4 turn rich, went for a ride after a normal startup, a few pulls, very little choking, took off while it was still a little cold but no choke on...ran a little blurpy on the lower end of the throttle till it warmed up then ran pretty good, went for about a twenty min ride...let it cool down then pulled the plug. now mind you up till this point that new plug was mostly sooty and somewhat wet, but i was glad to see it getting lighter at the spark points and looking normal...im pretty happy with the sound too..no backfire on throttle down..pretty smooth throtttle up...etc..its going to be a nice little trike! thanks for your help..!! two or twenty heads are always better than one!!
p.s....will start a new thread about this 84 200es i picked up last night for some barter service and a 100 bucks! wiring issues!!!! yuk!

[barnett468]

Hello

Good news and congratulations on the new bike. Just curious did you turn the screw out or in? Either way the pilot jet sounds close but the main sounds big because you say it runs better the warmer it gets. It might spit and cough for about 2 minutes while riding it with the choke off until it warms up but this is normal under some conditions. I personally would lower the needle by raising the clip by 2-3 positions and try it again and also start with a new plug and check it again. I would also try a 1 size smaller main jet once I got around to it and set needle accordingly

[Coopart1]

Hello Barnett, you know, i see your point..because much of the carb fiddle faddle i did before was when i had multiple issues with it running right..maybe now that valve issue is resolved and other things have been fine tuned like rotor air gap, cleaner connections etc...might be good to revisit the carb setting all together...hey thanks man for helping me see many other options i DO appreciate!! i will take a look see on that jet tomorrow and will have time to try some dif settings, run it out on some multi terrain trails for the real test.

[barnett468]

Hello Barnett, you know, i see your point..because much of the carb fiddle faddle i did before was when i had multiple issues with it running right..maybe now that valve issue is resolved and other things have been fine tuned like rotor air gap, cleaner connections etc...might be good to revisit the carb setting all together...hey thanks man for helping me see many other options i DO appreciate!! i will take a look see on that jet tomorrow and will have time to try some dif settings, run it out on some multi terrain trails for the real test.


Hello

Thanks for the reply and info. Happy to help, it's strange but frequently I see people with potential jetting problems and some just tell the person to just run it till it dies then worry about it. Being too rich will cause premature ring wear, being too lean can cause other problems.

Might I suggest that you concentrate on how it carburetes from a stop and from cruising speed etc. Also if there is a "hesitation" upon acceleration then please concentrate on whether it is "burbling/sputtering" [too rich] or if it just has a "flat" spot with no burbling or stuttering etc. This is lean. These terms are easily understood by all people that know how to properly jet a carb and it makes it easier for one to offer the proper suggestions for jetting if needed.


Hope this info helps.