REbuilding my '84 atc 200es

[hilltj]

Hi,

I'm commencing my rebuild project and am new to trikes. I have some questions that I would be greatful for answers or at least advice, namely;
- can I put atc200s bodywork on my atc200es. I like the look of the longer seat and don't need the rear carrier that is currently fitted. I guess I'll need to source a 200s seat too.
- Motorwise, I'd like to amp it up a bit and am thinking of a 10.25:1 piston kit, xl185S cam, DG pipe (or something similar) & replacing the carb with the 24mm unit off a 200X. What do you reckon. My intention for the beast is to have some fun, but it may end up as a runabout on my farm down the track. If I choose to go the 24mm carb route, will I need a different manifold & air filter? Will the centrifical clutch handle much in the way of a power up?
-Any other considerations, recommendations & traps for a novice?.

[barnett468]

Hello

Sounds like a nice build I've been trying to get full cam specs for the cams you mention but can't find them. If you happen to come across them perhaps you could post them.

Thanks

[hilltj]

Does anyone have experience with performance cdi's. seems that none are available for my atc 200es. Any ideas ?

[barnett468]

Hello

MSD makes one $435.00 12V only.

http://www.motorcycleworks.com/MSD-Powersports-UNIVERSAL-CDI-PROGRAMMABLE-IGNITION-detail.htm?productId=9151213

[kb0nly]

The 200ES CDI is a basic 5 wire CDI unit, if you change the factory plug you can put anything you want on it. Mine has the newer rectangular plug on it, i did a writeup on here about this a while back and its been reposted a few times now. You can then get performance CDI units that will plug right up. Its a pretty easy swap to do, the connector shell and contacts are readily available from a company called Vintage Connections.

Remember the 200ES along with most of them is an AC ignition system, NOT DC.

[hilltj]

Yeh, seems that changing the plug on the wiring harness is the smartest thing to do. I'll keep that in mind. I'll have to find the write up referred to to make sure I do it right. Any recommendations regarding exhausts?.

[barnett468]

Hello hilltj and Kbonly

"You can then get performance CDI units that will plug right up."

Where can one get one of these?

Someone else I know was asking if there was such a thing or are you just referring to using one off another model?

Can't find your thread either as of yet.

I think DG is one of the only ex mfgs left but others will know more.

[barnett468]

Hello

Is this the post?

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/156644-ATC200ES-CDI-Replacement-Sticky-Been-asked-a-lot-lately.

[kb0nly]

Barnett-- Thats the repost i did to compile it all down to the basic info.

The CDI's are easy to find, i usually just go on ebay and search for 5 wire CDI and get thousands of hits. There is units that are supposed to be high output, some have adjustable timing and dwell on them, etc etc... So many choices once you go to the standard plug that all the later models and dirt bikes and such use.

[hilltj]

Hi, I ordered the plug only to have my PayPal amount refunded!. Yet to contact vintage connections, but maybe the plug is out of stock?. What do people think of me replacing the 22mm stock carb with a 24mm carb off an atc 200x?. Will it contribute to a performance increase? Appreciate any feedback.

[barnett468]

Hello

Yes it will if you do the other things you mentioned.

[hilltj]

I ordered a DG pipe, seems that there are no other reasonable options. Dismantled the forks today, they remind me of a Z50 honda!. Chrome has worn off in some places which worries me & I've made contact with a fork reconditioner to see what can be done. Ordered wheel bearings brake shoes, seals etc in an effort to get a rolling chasis together before I touch the motor too much. One of the fork springs shows signs of corrosion, I'd like to replace both, but cannoy find them anywhere any ideas?. Another queation, how will the centrifical clutch cope with an increase in power?. Has anyone any experience?.

[my1423]

Hello,
The items you listed will give you a big boost in power.
I would recommend a 26mm xr carb for a little more power, but they are really hard to find over an x and the kits cost twice as much.
The x manifold is the same as the e so no changes. If you go to an xr carb then you would need an xr manifold as well. Not offset like and e x, center mount.
For the x carb you might need a new air cleaner tube. Much bigger throat and the old rubber will probably crack trying to fit over it.

An xr piston will give you big power, but make it really hard to pull start. You have electric so your ok, but if you ever need the pull, you might regret it.

For the cam here is a link to a cheap Factory one.
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-14101-437-000.html

For the ignition.
Since you have a battery and charging system already, You could build a cheap gm hei conversion and leave the factory one in place for a trail backup.
Few links to them. Only have to use one module and a single coil.
http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/index.html#home
http://xs650temp.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ID&action=print&thread=7899

[my1423]

Hello,
The items you listed will give you a big boost in power.
I would recommend a 26mm xr carb for a little more power, but they are really hard to find over an x and the kits cost twice as much.
The x manifold is the same as the e so no changes. If you go to an xr carb then you would need an xr manifold as well. Not offset like and e x, center mount.
For the x carb you might need a new air cleaner tube. Much bigger throat and the old rubber will probably crack trying to fit over it.

An xr piston will give you big power, but make it really hard to pull start. You have electric so your ok, but if you ever need the pull, you might regret it.

If your clutch is slipping it needs replaced. If not it is just fine.

Do not forget a new timing chain! Always replace it when you do a piston set!

For the cam here is a link to a cheap Factory one.
Have to search for it, I can not post links.
partzilla 14101-437-000

For the ignition.
Since you have a battery and charging system already, You could build a cheap gm hei conversion and leave the factory one in place for a trail backup.
Few links to them. Only have to use one module and a single coil.
comcast GPZweb loudgpz
xs650temp proboards print&thread=7899

[my1423]

For the cams.
Read on many places that honda uses 3 cams for this engine line. 125-200 es x xl xr cb ect
Most do not list the duration, just the lift.
Most everyone says for a factory cam the xl is the best compromise for an atc in wide power band and most hp.
Also needs no head rework so much cheaper then a Powerroll cam. Stock springs valves ect with not piston cutting.

xl cam lift Intake: 1.251 Exhaust: 1.235
Xr do not have the lifts but read they fall near the xl.
All atc cams e m s x ect Intake 1.235 Exhaust 1.220

[barnett468]

FORKS - Why not just buy some good used ones. If theu don't have dents or gouges or pits etc you can take them to a chrome plater that does hard chrome plating, might save some money. If they a re light;y pitted you can take them to a metal polishing shop, they will plate them for you and remove pits.

CLUTCH SHOES - Don't know much about the hondas there but if no high perf shoes are available you can buy nos honda ones or get yours relined with high perf material.

bikebandit.com or rocky mountain atv or cmsnl.com for nos.

might need to upgrade the stock main discs and springs too.

[hilltj]

my1423, thanks for the info, it's just the answers that I need. I Appreciate your time. I now need to find a 200x carb. Seems there are lots on ebay, but few ship to Australia!. I'll go with an XL185s cam, why not?. I'm doing a full rebuild anyway & would maybe regret not puting this cam in whilst the motor is out. I intend to get a new cam chain, new valves (with a valve grind to seat them) & hopefully, the valve guides may not be too worn to need replacing. I've not explored the head yet, but hope to get the motor out next week.

[my1423]

You are welcome!
Recommend if there is any slop to replace the guides.
They wear fast. If you do not the vales will start to peen the edges.
Last one I had done local shop cut down a set from a car. Charged me 20$ installed.
Do not remember the type, but they were only a little off.
The valves are usually serviceable. Intake take a close look at the face. Peen over, concave.
Do not buy valves on ebay! 90% of them are China knockoffs! Junk!
Buy those from Honda.
I know they are 40$ each, but if you need valves do it. Rather spend an extra 60$ then a whole new engine when they break!

For the shipping Maybe someone in the states could order all the things you want and ship them to you.
I did this a while back, with a tivo 2.
Cost the buyer a 110$ for slow frieght shipping and 2 months travel time. Blew me away how much it was and how long it took!
Make a Full shopping list! Do not want to forget anything.

[hilltj]

my1423, I'm steering well clear of "no-name" parts, i don't want to rebuild my motor again in a few years. My belief is that if the bike has lasted this long with OEM parts, then it should last a similar amount of time if i rebuild it with OEM Stuff. If it's good enough in the first place......................

[hilltj]

I took the left side cover off today and dismantled the centrifical clutch. There are some relatively deep grooves around the inside of the drum. I can feel them with a fingernail, but have no way of measuring them. I had a look on Ebay & it appears that all used drums "look" about the same as mine!. Should I be concerned?.

[my1423]

No those are there on all of them. Even factory.
The pads also have opposite groves.
Believe they keep the pads aligned and prevent chatter.

[barnett468]

I took the left side cover off today and dismantled the centrifical clutch. There are some relatively deep grooves around the inside of the drum. I can feel them with a fingernail, but have no way of measuring them. I had a look on Ebay & it appears that all used drums "look" about the same as mine!. Should I be concerned?.


Hello hilltj



No those are there on all of them. Even factory.

Really?



The pads also have opposite groves.
Believe they keep the pads aligned and prevent chatter.

Really, again?


Because of your high perf engine I personally think that, yes you should be VERY concerned. The reasons are posted below however you can simply choose to be like most people and think you know better than Honda does and simply run it the way it is and then when it slips, come back here and ask why it does even though you have already been told why it does.


1. The inside diameter of the hub surface is now enlarged. The OEM shoes are “arced” EXACTLY like a drum brake shoe is on a car to fit a predetermined diameter. When this diameter is increased, the friction material on the shoes no longer FULLY contacts the drum. A reduced contact area means a reduced holding capacity which means it will slip under less load than the original hub with the proper id.

2. The hub starts out with an id surface area that is perfectly FLAT and square to the shoe friction surface again providing for full contsact of the choe surface with the drum. The hub and drum wear together and as the friction material of the shoes wears grooves in the hub the deeper the grooves the greater the radius becomes at the base of the groove in the hub causing the surface inside the grooves to become more and more “curved” [so to speak] which in turn also reduces the amount of area the shoes contact inside the hub.

3. Mismatched arc = less holding power + mismatched surfaces = even less holding power which equals significantly reduced clutch life and a clutch that will positively have significantly less holding power than one that is run on a smooth hub with the proper id etc.

4. Since you are substantially increasing the power of your bike you are further increasing the load that a clutch would otherwise see in a stock motor. It seems illogical and at the very least less than prudent to run your new shoes on that drum the way it currently is.

5. Since they are no longer available and it appears that most the used ones are grooved also I would simply take it to either a regulator automotive machine or crankshaft grinding shop [they have a special automatic welder for this] and then have it machined to spec by someone or take it to a regular machine shop and see if they can weld it [they can obviously machine it]. The surface needs a little texture NOT a mirror finish.

6. Honda centrifugal clutch hub id spec [see pg 8-1 in OEM manual I the link below], 4.570” - service limit 4.580” = only .010” allowable wear. If you can feel or see grooves in your hub it is worn to at least close to the service limit if not well beyond it.


OEM MANUAL CENTRIFUGAL CLUTCH HUB SERVICE SPEC PG 8-1

http://www.kb0nly.info/ATC/index.php?dir=ATC200ES%2F

[my1423]

Factory Honda pads have groves.
You can see them on the manual you uploaded, page 8-9.
Also page 8-8 you can BARELY see the groves in the drum that correspond to them. Bottom picture in the brighter parts.
I have replaced the drums and new factory ones have groves. They are small. Maybe .005
They prevent the shoes from side loading, chatter, ect.
The shoes are only held in place with a spring and masterlink.
There are wear limits and yes if you want to mic them go ahead.
I can not recommend that he needs the drum machined 150$+ and new new 100$ clutch because he has groves.
Run it. If it slips then worry about it.


If you want to just replace it with all new parts,
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1984/ATC200ES+A/ONE-WAY+CLUTCH/parts.html

[hilltj]

guys, I hear what you're saying & respect both views. But, I've decided to buy a new drum from partzilla. Thay way I can be confident that all parts mate together as Mr Honda planned. I don't relish the thought of going back inside the case to fix the issue later. As it's going to be pumping out more power than original, I think it's best to have everything in my favour. I haven't dismantled the manual clutch yet, another story........

[barnett468]

Hello hilltj




Factory Honda pads have groves. You can see them on the manual you uploaded, page 8-9.

Yes, there are three of them which are clearly seen in the photo of an NOS one below.

http://www.cmsnl.com/atc200es-big-red-usa_model963/shoe-clutch_22461ke4771/

xxxxx


Also page 8-8 you can BARELY see the groves in the drum that correspond to them. Bottom picture in the brighter parts.

There are 3 photos on pg 8-8 the top one is useless the larger middle one is the most clear and does NOT show any ridges [not grooves], the smaller bottom one shows what possibly looks like 2 small ridges but it’s not clear enough to see. I f you are referring to those ridges here’s the problem

Even if those were ridges they CLEARLY do not line up with an OEM clutch shoe. They shoe has 3 grooves, one is in the center. The hub photo only looks like it has 2 ridges with one on each side of center so if in fact those are factory ridges there is not enough of them plus they don’t line up to the grooves in the OEM clutch so the photo proves nothing.

xxxxx


I have replaced the drums and new factory ones have groves.

Unless you personally purchased them yourself directly from the dealer or reputable NOS parts source I don’t believe it. It is easy to have an original package stuff a used “grooved” hub in it heat seal it and sell it on ebay.

Xxxxx


They are small. Maybe .005

That is too small to make have any significant effect from on any aspect of the clutches performance from an engineering standpoint, plus why would the ridges in the hub be only .005” when the grooves in the shoes are significantly deeper.

xxxxx


They prevent the shoes from side loading, chatter, ect.

Statement has no documentation to support it plus even if there were ridges .005” is too small to have any significant effect.

Xxxxx


The shoes are only held in place with a spring and masterlink.

It appears as though the shoes are centered in the hub by items #1, # 7, #9, and #10 as CLEARLY shown in the original Honda parts fiche whose link is pasted below.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc200es-big-red-usa_model963/partslist/E++07.html#results

xxxxx


There are wear limits and yes if you want to mic them go ahead.

This is correct, I posted them in post #22 item #6.

xxxxx

I can not recommend that he needs the drum machined 150$+ and new new 100$ clutch because he has groves. masterlink.

$150.00 seems a bit high but irregardless of the price, if you want to play you have to pay [either now or later].

Neither I nor anyone else here has asked you to. He asked a question, you offered your suggestions and opinions and inaccurate claims, I offered my opinions, suggestions and facts supported by irrefutable proof. Now he can decide for himself what he wants to do with the information he receives from everyone.

xxxxx


There Run it. If it slips then worry about it.

Sure that’s one option for him to decide on his own then when his worn clutch hub damages his new shoes he can weld and machine the hub and buy another new set of shoes.

xxxxx


If you want to just replace it with all new parts,
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1984/ATC200ES+A/ONE-WAY+CLUTCH/parts.html[/QUOTE]

Hilltj, If your hub is worn I strongly suggest you buy the new hub posted in the parts fiche above they won’t be there forever. Then if these ridges do in fact exist your new hub will have them.

[hilltj]

Guys, settle down, I bought a new one. Cheers

[barnett468]

Cool, intelligent move let us know what cam you end up using and how it runs when you get it going.

[hilltj]

Partzilla emailed me and advised that they no longer stock the clutch drum subject of much debate on this forum!. Anyone know where I can get one?. I'm still debating camshafts & a'm thinking of going stock on account of better low end power. But I'm not sure. It would be really easy to drop in anyother cam at this point in the build. What to you guys reckon?

[barnett468]

Partzilla emailed me and advised that they no longer stock the clutch drum subject of much debate on this forum!. Anyone know where I can get one?. I'm still debating camshafts & a'm thinking of going stock on account of better low end power. But I'm not sure. It would be really easy to drop in anyother cam at this point in the build. What to you guys reckon?


Hello


I pasted one of my comments from my post 22 below for you in case you don't find a new or good used one.


5. Since they are no longer available and it appears that most the used ones are grooved also I would simply take it to either a regular automotive machine or crankshaft grinding shop [they have a special automatic welder for this] and then have it machined to spec by someone or take it to a regular machine shop and see if they can weld it [they can obviously machine it]. The surface needs a little texture NOT a mirror finish. ]

xxxxx


I can not recommend that he needs the drum machined 150$+ and new new 100$ clutch because he has groves.

Run it. If it slips then worry about it.

If you want to just replace it with all new parts,

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1984/ATC200ES+A/ONE-WAY+CLUTCH/parts.html



Hilltj, If your hub is worn I strongly suggest you buy the new hub posted in the parts fiche above they won’t be there forever.

xxxxx


I bought a new one. Cheers

[barnett468]

Hello hilltj


Sorry, I accidentally pasted more of the text from my microsoft word page than I intended. The first quote is the only one I intended to post for you.


Sorry that I don't know where any new ones are for you.

[hilltj]

Hi, an update. Got a NOS clutch drum from a company called "Remar-cables" they are quoting me $144.00 + freight. Also received the plug from the Vintage Connection mob mentioned earlier in the thread, so I can substitute a "hot" CDI. Am getting the barrel rebored @present, valve guides appear serviceable but valves will need replacing & seats recut. Now............ I've reviewed the threads, how can I remove the pinion? without special tools?. The "diff" looks good, but I'd really like to put seals & bearings through it.

[my1423]

I have never taken an 84 rear end apart.
On others pull all the bits off you can. Brakes, axle, ect.
May need a propane torch to heat the brake drum to get it off.
You can also ice the axle to help.
On some you have to make either a puller or press shims to get the axle out.
Once you get the carrier off the bike put the whole assembly in the freezer for a few hours.
Get it as cold as possible.
Then take a torch and heat the aluminum casing.
On most the pinion and bearing will fall right out.
Same applies for any bearings stuck to the pinion.
Get it cold, heat the bit up you want off, give it a tap with a mallet.


For the retainer nuts, autoparts stores rent and sell hub tools.
Many work on other bikes, should work for this one.

[barnett468]

Hello


"valves will need replacing"

Here's a link to some japanese valves 1/3 price of oem.

http://shindypro.com/

[hilltj]

Bought a pinion holding tool, now to find a way of removing the retaining nut (the one with the castellations on the top). Any ideas, looks like it's cast iron to me!

[my1423]

Factory tool, no idea. Ebay, or call honda. Expensive from honda.

4x4 hub tools auto store. Take the unit to the store see what works.
Measure the nut maximum and minimum to fit in there.
Not all tools will fit. Brand dependent.
Worked on the ones I have done.

[hilltj]

Bought the tool from a company called Boretech $69.00 not too bad. They also sell a tool to remove the castellated pinion nut too. I guess I'll have to buy that also. I'll let you all know how the strip progresses.

[hilltj]

anyone have any experience retrofitting a manual cam chain tensioner?. Is there any advantage?

[hilltj]

Front Suspension - My 200es forks stanchions are unable to be rechromed so I'll be looking for an alternative front end set-up. I'm thinking that a full 200M front end would be the go. If I buy a front end will my 200es hub/wheel fit or do I need to change this also?. I'd appreciate advice from anyone who's done the swap.

[hilltj]

I'm in receipt of a new OEM Centrifical clutch basket. It has no grooves in it!

[my1423]

Cool!
Where did you get the basket?
What was the part number?
The last 3 digits. They determine version.
The ones i saw with grooves were very early. Want to say 001 or 002.
Partzilla listed last as 010.

[hilltj]

my1423, I'll have a look. Came from the company I mentioned earlier called ReMar-Cables in Australia www.remarcables.com.au , they sell a lot of OEM stuff. Very handy.

[hilltj]

part # for clutch drum is 22500-958-010.

Cheers