'84 Honda 200ES, Poor Running... Ignition? [Archive]

tvpierce

04-29-2013, 06:52 AM

I picked up this bike a couple weeks ago, and joined the forum. I've been tinkering around with it, and am in the middle of diagnosing a poor running issue.
The bike starts and idles, and can be driven around at low speed, but stumbles under load. It always smells like it's running a little rich, and it fouls plugs pretty severely.

Pulled the carb, and it looked remarkably clean: just the slightest bit of sediment in the bowl, zero varnish anywhere, zero build-up in any orifice of the emulsion tubes, jets clean and unobstructed. Set the idle mixture to 2 turns out. No change.

I know the spark is weak, as I can barely see it sometimes, and when I can, it's not strong.

I have a new plug, plug wire, and ignition coil.

The Pulse Generator checks out for resistance: 28.7 ohm (Honda spec is 20-40)
The Pulse Generator gap is set .330 mm (Honda spec is .3-.4mm)

I picked up a new generic/Chinese CDI on ebay per kb0nly's excellent tutorial thread, but it seemed to make the engine run slightly worse... (?) so I switched back to the original.

The source coil checks out for resistance: 257 ohm (Honda spec is 100-400)
With the engine running the voltage output of the source coil is 28v AC, and it remains constant regardless of RPM. Is this correct? Should it be higher? Should it fluctuate with engine RPM?

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

barnett468

04-29-2013, 07:12 AM

Hello

Is ALL the gas new or did you add new gas to old gas?

If the gas is old and apple juice color that is most likely your problem.

Do you know the jet sizes?

Do you know if it ran fine with those carb settings?

tvpierce

04-29-2013, 08:35 AM

Yes, all the gas is fresh. I've burned 2-3 tanks of fuel through it like it is now -- kind of an unintended governor while my kids are learning to operate it.

The main jet is a 95, the jet needle is a 36J, and the second jet is a 38 -- which I believe are stock for non-high-altitude. Is that correct?

The guy I bought it from never had it running properly. He bought it non-operational with the intention of tinkering with it then selling it. He admitted he didn't know what he was doing, and gave up on it.

Any thoughts about what the voltage output should be for a good Source Coil?

Thanks.

kb0nly

04-29-2013, 04:58 PM

Your voltage output sounds good for the ignition coil output. Double check your spark plug gap, and check the wiring on all components of the ignition system just to rule anything out. You said it seemed to run worst with the new CDI, but how was the spark output? Did the spark look a lot stronger? You might have to adjust the pickup on the advancer to get the timing right now. Check the timing as shown in the manual, if the timing is spot on you should see the line on the advancer and the pickup coil matched, now if you want you can advance or retard the pickup coil slightly to see if it makes an improvement. Sometimes i have to advance them just a smidge to get them running smooth, new CDI or not, i think its because of wear and play in the advancer springs that offsets the timing just a bit.

If you got good spark and play with the timing and its still running rich on the plug i would say you have either a carb or valve or even an exhaust problem. Both my 200ES and a 185 i worked on in the last year had rotted mufflers that the baffling inside of them was messed up so the motor couldn't breath very well with the extra back pressure. I replaced my exhaust with a DG setup and the plug reading told the story, went from black and fouled to light tan just from the exhaust swap. A final tweaking of the mixture screw fixed it right up.

Check the valve settings, if your getting lazy opening and closing of the valves from too much slop in the rockers its going to affect it a great deal also. Also check your air filter and if nothing else run without the top on the airbox take it for a spin with a clean plug, just take off the airbox cover and toss your seat back on. This will rule out the air intake being plugged. I had one that a mouse got in and made a home up in the air intake to the airbox, never ran right until we tore it down to clean up everything and i ran a piece of wire up in there and wads of paper and insulation and everything else started falling out.

Like i said, if its got good spark but its still rich, then you got a breathing problem somewhere, a motor is basically a big air pump, you need good flow everywhere.

tvpierce

04-29-2013, 05:58 PM

Hi KB.

The plug gap is good and I've checked the ground wires for the coil, and CDI. I didn't notice that the spark was any stronger with the new CDI.

I've done a lot of messing around with the timing: Removed the advance mechanism, cleaned/blew it out, then coated the shaft and weight pivots with a light coating of oil. Now the mechanism is very smooth and free-moving. When the timing is spot on per the manual, it starts pretty well and idles fine, but I advancing the timing a little helps rev a little better (very little though).

The carb is clean and seems fine. The muffer is a little rugged... I'll look at that. If I run it with just the header (for diagnostic purposes only) would that be too free-flowing?

Valves are adjusted to spec, but the intake valve is a bear to get at. Any tips on that?

Air filter is new. I ran it for a few days without and air filter because I didn't have one. It made no difference whether the filter is there or not.

kb0nly

04-30-2013, 05:50 PM

Hmm, if your not getting any improvement in spark, then its got to be something else yet. I haven't ever had a bad ignition coil on these but its possible, did you try removing the plug wire from the coil and snipping a bit off for a fresh end? Also do that on the spark plug boot end as well. Sometimes you get a corroded connection on them that adds a high resistance to the wire and the spark ain't for crap.

Sounds like your advancer is good then no worries there from the sound of it. If adjust the carb won't lean it out any then there is still an issue somewhere, i know i fought my carb for a month and gave up and tossed on a new one from eBay, what a difference, i think though that everything was just worn out in mine, i kept it in case i ever want to rebuild it some day.

You could run it without the muffler, header pipe only, but its gonna be damn loud so just a warning, i know cause i did it before when i was going through the exhaust... LOL It will most likely start to run lean, unless your still having a carb issue, but its a good diagnostic just to check your other work.

The intake is a pain no matter what.. The way i usually do them is take off the seat and the gas tank, then you can get a long flat screwdriver down from the top to the adjuster and then get a dog leg 10mm box end wrench and put that on the nut and then insert your screwdriver and your good. I don't usually use a feeler gauge to set them, i do it by feel by grabbing the rocker and wiggling it up and down until it feels right to me, but if you havent done it a lot then a feeler gauge is recommended.

Ok on the air filter, but when you said you ran it without an air filter, was the lid on the airbox or was that off? The airbox gets it's air from a hose that attaches to one of the frame tubes, and sometimes the frame tube gets plugged up with crap from rodents or just general conditions its been used it, i had one full of leaves and dirt. An air hose with a good nozzle on it and a rag works well to form a seal up into that tube and then blow the crap out in the reverse direction.. but try running it without the airbox lid on to rule that out.

I don't know if i can suggest much more then that sounds like you really have gone through it.

jawalth6

05-01-2013, 02:20 PM

I know you said its gas is good but you might should drain the carb bowl in a clear jar and see if there's water in it somehow. Just to be sure. You could also spray starting fluid or wd40 in the intake and then try to rev it up. If it worked good then then the carb is your issue.

tvpierce

05-02-2013, 05:09 PM

I had a carb kit on order, and it arrived yesterday, so I pulled the carb apart again, and installed the new parts. The carb was still immaculate when I took it apart, so no water or other contaminants are getting in.
Well, the new carb parts made a slight improvement. Throttle was a little more crisp, and the stumble/bogging was a little bit better. But something's not right with this carb: I can close the idle air control all the way down, turn the throttle stop/idle control all the way out, and it still idles very well -- in fact, a little high. When I make those two adjustments, the engine should quit, right?

Regarding air intake: I had tried running it both with the cover on and off the airbox. I'm familiar with the intake path that leads through the frame -- I already have blown that out with compressed air. It was free of obstructions.

So I did the same thing you did KB: I went on ebay and ordered a new carb... $25 delivered! Hopefully that will arrive in the next few days. Perhaps that will solve my drivability issue. But there's still the issue of weak spark. So once I get the carb sorted out, I'll be better equipped to get to the bottom of the ignition system.

As far as checking valve clearance: I did it by breaking the end off my feeler gauge and holding that with a pair of needle nose pliers to get it under the rocker. I was considering soldering that piece of the feeler gauge to a piece of #12 Romex copper wire, then it could be bent to reach. We'll see.

In any event, I'll keep you posted on my progress when the new carb comes in.

Thanks a bunch for your help!

Flossyb20

05-02-2013, 06:19 PM

Weak spark could be water or oil in your stator cover...your stator will check out fine, but won't give you good spark when running...

kb0nly

05-03-2013, 12:50 AM

Weak spark could be water or oil in your stator cover...your stator will check out fine, but won't give you good spark when running...

The 200ES is a wet stator... Its got oil splashing around the whole time. The timing chain runs on a sprocket right behind the flywheel, the oil is pumped up to the head and returns down the timing chain galley on that side of the motor, so the flywheel and the stator is always wet with oil.

The only other thing i can suggest is try a new pickup coil for the advancer, that could be going bad and causing a weak pulse to the CDI. There isn't too many connections to go through to rule them out and sounds like you have done it all. After replacing the carb and getting the mix looking right reading the plug you might be satisfied, if not back to working on that spark!

You could always get a high output coil and performance CDI, but they really shouldn't be needed just to get the spark up to a good level.

The way you said the carb now is idling too high no matter what you do to adjust it sounds like an air leak between the carb and the cylinder head, did you replace the o-ring on the rubber intake at the head and on the front of the carb? Its included in the carb kit.

tvpierce

05-03-2013, 08:19 AM

Hi KB.

I used the old o-ring because it was in good condition (not flat on either side -- previous owner must have replaced it recently), and it fit better (was a little thicker) than the o-ring that came in the Moose Racing carb kit. Good point though about it acting like a downstream air leak. I'll try spraying the seams of the intake with WD-40 and see if that affects the idle.

I received my new stator source coil in the mail yesterday. The brand new one has the same resistance as the one that's currently in there: 257 ohms. Just checked the voltage output of the stator while running: 51 volts. That's double what it was before... not sure why or how. Should the voltage going to the ignition coil primary be the same (51 volts AC), or is it rectified to DC in the CDI box?

Can you do me a favor? Can you measure the AC voltage coming out of your stator source coil with the engine running?

kb0nly

05-03-2013, 01:21 PM

tvpierce

05-03-2013, 01:30 PM

I would definitely check the intake, those rubber intakes can crack and cause problems.

So you replaced the stator coil and now you have 51v... Thats really healthy! I can try and measure mine later today when i get some spare time to give you a comparison.

No, I didn't replace it. I have a replacement, but only tested the resistance of the new (uninstalled) coil vs the resistance of the one that's in there now. They both read about 257 ohms. The

Actually the CDI takes the output of the stator and the pulse from the advancer and steps it up to over 100v to the primary side of the ignition coil, its still AC voltage from the CD to the coil. I haven't measured one of the ignition coils in a while so i don't remember what the output voltage was to the spark plug on the secondary, i should get my high voltage probe out and check that again sometime just to document it.

I was unable to get a reading of the voltage out of the CDI to the primary on the ignition coil. I presume I can't get a reading because it's fluctuating too much and my digital meter can't keep up. (and I don't have a meter that reads peaks) Is there a way to get that reading without having a pricey meter?

tvpierce

05-04-2013, 06:00 AM

UPDATE:

The voltage out of the stator source coil is 27 volts, not 51 volts. I got 51 when measuring with my other meter that has a weak battery. While the higher voltage would be nice, at least I know that it's consistent at 27 volts.

I also realized the needle wasn't seated properly in the plunger. I'll correct that this morning and see what that does for the carb.

Checked for air leaks last night: none... it's all sealed up tight.

kb0nly

05-04-2013, 10:30 AM

Ok, i didn't get a chance to measure mine yesterday, and its raining today. But i will get to that because now you got me curious. I think i recall reading a spec that it should be 20-30v so i figured your 51v was high but still possible at higher RPM.

As for measuring the output of the CDI, thats tricky because its pulsed to the coil. You can get a peak reading voltmeter but its not cheap. You can also buy a DVA but also not cheap. What i did is built one! A piece of perf board and a project box from Radio Shack along with a few components is all you need. I found a schematic online on another forum where a guy was talking about needing to troubleshoot the ignition system on his dirt bike a few years back, i did save the picture from that forum. Here it is...

168730

If your needle isn't right that could cause all the issues your having also because it will float up and down if its not correctly held down by the spring in the slide.

tvpierce

05-05-2013, 07:19 AM

Hi KB.

Thanks for the schematic. I can probably find the parts I need for that at work. I'll give that a try on Monday.

I correctly seated the needle, but it made no difference.

Then my new ebay carb arrived in the mail. I was pretty psyched. I install it, fire the engine up, but it still runs the same! No improvement at all. (?)

Process of elimination, I guess. :-/

Let me know what you find out about the voltage from you source coil.

Thanks!

barnett468

05-05-2013, 09:15 AM

Hello

Just been watching you tread hoping kb would get it running for you, sounds like he won’t give up which is good however as a passive observer after reading all the posts it sounds like either a bad “old” and bad “new” COIL or a bad $5.00 Chinese CDI box if I was looking at the right one. This is provided your gas is good as I previously suggested to check and your descriptions and connection of the new cdi box are accurate.

Is the “new” coil new or used?

Is it Chinese?

Did you ever simply ohm the coil like it says to in the manual to check it? I didn’t see you doing that test in your thread but I could have missed it.

If not why not?

tvpierce

05-05-2013, 09:46 AM

Hi Barnett.

I went through the ignition system per the manual, and all the components checked out: (results below from a spread sheet I created to help me keep things straight. formatting got a little screwed up by the forum, but the first value is the Honda spec, the second value is the actual)

Honda Spec Tested Value
Stator/resistance 100 - 400 ohm 257 ohm
Stator/volts - - 27 volts @ idle

Pulse Generator/resistance 30 ohm (+/- 10 ohm) 28.7 ohm
Pulse Generator/air gap 0.3-0.4 mm .330 mm

Spark Plug Gap 0.6 - 0.7 mm 0.62

Ignition Coil/primary .2 - .4 ohm .3 - .4 ohm
Ignition Coil/secondary 3 - 5 ohm 13.6 ohm @ plug end

The old coil and wire/connector were within spec, but I was able to get an Ebay/Chinese coil/wire/connector for $11 delivered -- so figured it was money well spent if for no other reason than for diagnosis. The new coil also checks out when measured for resistance per the repair manual.

Maybe not a bad idea to order a couple more CDI boxes ($5 each, delivered) just to be sure I'm not chasing my tail on that end.

Thoughts?

barnett468

05-05-2013, 10:07 AM

tvpierce

05-05-2013, 12:58 PM

Hi Barnett.

What do you mean that "Kbonly bought the last good ones"? Have others had problems with the Chinese CDIs?

I tried to test the timing with a light, but had a hard time reading the marks. The flywheel doesn't seem to line up well the sight/access hole. I can just barely see them with aflashlight for static timing adjust/check. Any tips on seeing the marks better?

kb0nly

05-05-2013, 01:16 PM

I haven't heard of anyone buying a bad cheap CDI, i guess its entirely possible that you got a bad one, but i don't think its too likely.

You could try a high performance one since its the same five wire config and plug, but again not sure it would make a lot of difference. The rain finally stopped here, i should get some time later today to measure voltage to give you a comparison. If its not your CDI or ignition coil it has to be the source coil, but i will measure mine to give you a comparison!

tvpierce

05-05-2013, 02:55 PM

What's interesting about the output of my source coil is that it stays at 27 volts regardless of RPM. The engine never gets past about 2500 -3000 rpm (estimate), but it's the same 27 volts whether at idle or 2500-3000.
It should make more voltage at higher RPM, right?

kb0nly

05-05-2013, 04:05 PM

Ok i finally have some hard numbers... Sorry it took so long, on and off rain here the last couple days and i don't have a garage to get it in out of the weather right now, i didn't feel like getting tickled by the source coil output holding a wet test lead again.. LOL

At idle my source coil output on the Black/Red wire is 49-50v, it fluctuates a bit. At mid throttle its about 60v, and at full throttle its about 76v.

So if you have 27v throughout its range my guess is that your source coil is bad, but before you dig into the motor try something... Disconnect the Black/Red wire and put your voltmeter on the output from the source coil without anything connected to it and crank it over with the electric start if you can, mine spinning over no load i was able to get about 38v. The reason i am saying to do this, is if the CDI truly is defective it could be shorting the output and giving you that lower voltage so just double check.

The source coil and the recoil and left side gaskets is what you would need to repair this. If you have never taken the left side off before watch out for the electric starter gear reduction shafts and gears, and there is thrust washers and such that all need to go back in the correct order. If you can lean the trike on its right side so everything doesn't fall out, and also you don't have oil leaking everywhere that way.

I would say at this point it has to be the coil... Dangit anyway, i try everything first before i got to open a motor up!

tvpierce

05-05-2013, 05:42 PM

Thanks KB, that's extremely helpful.

I'll try the test you describe -- unhooking the CDI -- but I'd bet it will continue to point to the source coil, because I had the same 27 volt reading with the original Honda CDI and the Chinese CDI. I'll let you know what I find out.

Thanks also for the tips on removing the left side cover. I haven't done that, so wouldn't have known to look out for the starter gears/thrust washer. Does the recoil need to come off the cover, or can it stay in place and come off as one piece?

barnett468

05-06-2013, 02:44 AM

Hello

My kb cdi comment was meant as a joke. I guess since you are frustrated with your bike that nothing is funny right now so sorry about that.

CDI - I will say though that i do have a lot of experience with chinese parts and try to avoid them at all cost. You are replacing a severely over priced part that costs $200.00 with a severely under priced part that costs around $1.00 to make since the chinese must make at least 1.00 when they wholesale it and the retailer must make $2.00 when they retail it and since it cost you $5.00 including shipping it cost the seller .75 to ship it so he sold it for $4.25 for all his effort. Doesn’t this sound the least bit suspicious to anyone? I would certainly buy some spares if i were you.

SOURCE COIL -As far as the coil goes, since it ohms correctly and the same as kb’s then it is almost impossible for it to be bad they don’t work that way. Did you check it cold and hot? Hopefully his “unplugged test will yield some good results, it’s a great idea.

FLYWHEEL MAGNETISM – Another extremely remote but easy to test possibility is that your flywheel has lost some magnetism. The chances are close to 0 but why not test it? Just ohm your charge coil and voltage output with it connected and disconnected if possible and compare it to kb’s if it is the same your magnetism is good if it’s different it’s most likely your magnetism is low instead of a bad charge coil.

my1423

05-06-2013, 02:51 AM

I have seen your issue before with the same running issues.
Rev it up and runs like icky.

Timing chains get loose and people do not adjust them.
They jump time then run like cr@p.
Then the manual comes out and they adjust the cam chain.
Still runs bad but now you can not hear the chain noise.

Pull the advance unit then the cam cover.
Check your cam sprocket dot to the pointer arrow and the line marks vs the t on crank.

barnett468

05-06-2013, 02:54 AM

Hello

Forgot to mention, you tested your source coil and it tested good yet you bought another for around $25.00? You then tested your ign coil and it tested good yet you bought another Chinese one for $11.00 but you can't fully test a cdi, yet you haven't spent just $5.00 to buy another cdi to try?

my1423

05-06-2013, 03:01 AM

Sounds like it jumped time.

Take off the advancer and cover and check it.

barnett468

05-06-2013, 03:52 AM

Hello

Any tips on seeing the marks better?

Put white out on the marks they lite right up with the timing lite.

tvpierce

05-06-2013, 04:04 AM

Hi again.

I couldn't do the unplugged test of the source coil because my electric start isn't working -- and my meter can't keep up with the short burst of the pull start.

So I ran into a problem installing the coil.

Here's a pic of it:

168783

As you can see, the tab for the red/black wire is in the middle on this coil instead of at one end. I bent that tab over so it wouldn't contact the flywheel (not knowing how much clearance there is in there). Then figured if I could mount it so that tab is on the underside that would be even better. But that little tab on the right is in the way, keeping it from being able to mount flat. I figured it's metal, mounted to the base, it must be just another ground that's used in a different engine. So I grab it with a pair of pliers, and break it off. Turns out there was a tiny wire attached to it -- looks to be winding wire. I tried soldering the wire back to the base -- and some solder did stick -- but now I have no spark, I guess I need to order another one. (It gets expensive doing dumb things!)

I see one that's listed to fit these: HONDA ATC 110 81-85 / 185 80-83 / 200 81-86. That should work, right? Is there enough room for that tab to not contact the flywheel?

tvpierce

05-06-2013, 04:19 AM

Hello

Any tips on seeing the marks better?

Put white out on the marks they lite right up with the timing lite.

I've done that on cars where marks are on the harmonic balancer/pulley. Will the white out stick to the oily surface in the ATC?

barnett468

05-06-2013, 04:24 AM

I've done that on cars where marks are on the harmonic balancer/pulley. Will the white out stick to the oily surface in the ATC?

Absolutely, just spray flammable contact cleaner on them then finish cleaning/drying with a q tip. install white out on one mark let it air dry or use hair drier, once dry do the other one, it will not come off.

barnett468

05-06-2013, 04:27 AM

I can't pull up the photo can you post it to flickr and post a link or post the actual photo here?

tvpierce

05-06-2013, 04:40 AM

I can't pull up the photo can you post it to flickr and post a link or post the actual photo here?

I pulled the photo off ebay, but now can't find it.

Here's a link on Photo Bucket:

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu21/tvpierce/Source_Coil_zps2c1e9b25.jpg

my1423

05-06-2013, 04:43 AM

Hello,
I posted all this earlier but it said something about waiting for validation and never appeared.
So I did the short post.
Lets try it again.

I have seen these same symptoms before.
People never do maintenance. Timing chain stretches gets noisy and they keep riding.
Then it jumps time and runs badly.
They suddenly discover the adjustment reading the manual ect. Now its quiet but still out of time.
Usually they end up with a bent valve, but rarely it only jumps one tooth.
Sometimes they were off from a Badly stretched chain and worn guides.
When it revs up the advance kicks in and sputters for its too far advanced.
Many of the new china cdi have built in timing advance that the old ones do not have.
Put on the new unit and now you have a few extra degrees of timing and they run really bad.

To make the marks more visible the whiteout method posted works GREAT!
Use a wire brush first to really buff up the area then do all listed.

The other marks you need to get at are behind the advancer and timing cover on the head.
Round dot on the gear points at the arrow on the head.
At the same time the line by the T is in the window on the flywheel to the arrow.
If these do not line up it is out.

barnett468

05-06-2013, 04:58 AM

Hello

Yes did you ever check the cam timing as my1423 suggested?

You should check everything you can before you rebuild the entire bike for no reason, even if it has nothing to do with spark. I've seen bikes that barely had visible spark but ran fine for years.

One of the other reasons i was hoping you would check the ign advance was for the reason my1423 mentioned. Let us know the total advance.

Place a small dot 1/4" before the full advance line and two dots 1/4" after it so if it advances and you still can't see the line you will still se the dots and know whether it is advanced or retarded too much.

tvpierce

05-06-2013, 04:58 AM

barnett468

05-06-2013, 05:08 AM

Hello

Yes did you ever check the cam timing as my1423 suggested?

You should check everything you can before you rebuild the entire bike for no reason, even if it has nothing to do with spark. I've seen bikes that barely had visible spark but ran fine for years.

One of the other reasons i was hoping you would check the ign advance was for the reason my1423 mentioned. Let us know the total advance.

Place a small dot 1/4" before the full advance line and two dots 1/4" after it so if it advances and you still can't see the line you will still see the dots and know whether it is advanced or retarded too much.

my1423

05-06-2013, 05:17 AM

Almost forgot, One other thing to check.
This would only come in if your timing light shows off, but the chain is lined up.
Only saw this once.
Atc went to the shop for a new cam chain.
After the bike did the sputter on top end and would not run right.
Shop did all kinds of things to try to get it to run.
They also had a big Honda street bike in for an ignition issue.
Both had problems.
Found out a shop boy was washing parts and accidentally mixed up the advance units from the 2 bikes.
They look the same, but the pin locations are slightly off.

barnett468

05-06-2013, 05:22 AM

Hello

Looked at coil, not good need acid core solder and big solderiron to solder to lug.

You avoided my question, what overseas country did this coil come from?

What is it off of?

I forgot did you ohm it to see if it was the same?

tvpierce

05-06-2013, 06:58 AM

Hello

Looked at coil, not good need acid core solder and big solder iron to solder to lug.

I had no problem soldering the wire to the lug. I used my old Weller "gun" style for the extra power.

You avoided my question, what overseas country did this coil come from?

What is it off of?

I forgot did you ohm it to see if it was the same?

The coil is new, Emgo brand. Made in Taiwan.

Yes, tested it off the bike: it was about 257 ohm, same as the one that was on there.

barnett468

05-06-2013, 07:26 AM

I had no problem soldering the wire to the lug. I used my old Weller "gun" style for the extra power.

The coil is new, Emgo brand. Made in Taiwan.

Yes, tested it off the bike: it was about 257 ohm, same as the one that was on there.

I had no problem soldering the wire to the lug. I used my old Weller "gun" style for the extra power.

Yeah those work good they actually make at least 2 types.

xxxxx

The coil is new, Emgo brand. Made in Taiwan.

Oh, that's much better, you do realize that they are owned by China and just a few miles away?

xxxxx

Yes, tested it off the bike: it was about 257 ohm, same as the one that was on there.

Well that's good so you have 2 coils that ohm good but you broke the new one.

What is it designed to fit since it doesn't quite fit your bike?

xxxxx

Did you see my post about using dots on the flywheel?

Just curious, when do you think you will check ign timing and cam timing?

tvpierce

05-06-2013, 07:42 AM

Yeah, I know. What's that doctor's moto: "Do no harm." (or something like that) Good thing I'm not a heart surgeon. :-)

Yes, I saw your post about dots pre and post TDC.

Right now the engine has no spark, so I can't check the advance... but I can check the cam timing as mentioned My1423. Hopefully get to it in the next few minutes. Will let you know what I find.

Thanks!

tvpierce

05-06-2013, 07:47 AM

Forgot to add:

Here's a link to the ebay auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290907360216?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2648

The listing says: HONDA ATC 110 81-85 / 185 80-83 / 200 81-86

The box in the photo indicated "185/185s/200/200s.

tvpierce

05-06-2013, 11:51 AM

Update:

Valve timing is good.

Removed the new source coil and tested it off the bike -- it now has very low resistance: 10-20 ohms. It was originally 250-260 when tested off the bike, so I buggered it up!

After more precise measuring, that Emgo coil will physically fit (the tab in the middle will not interfere with the flywheel), so I guess I'll order another one.

Once I get it running again, I can test the timing advance.

I'll report back what I find.

Open to any further thoughts until then.

Thanks everyone for all your help so far.

tvpierce

05-07-2013, 07:23 AM

Update:

Was able to fix the new coil by re-soldering the winding connections back to the ground. I get 240 ohms resistance now, so should be good.

I checked the flywheel for magnetism. Appears to have a good strong magnetic field at each magnet.

Hope to get everything re-assembled, buttoned up and running this morning. Then I can check timing advance.

Will post back with results.

Thanks again!

barnett468

05-07-2013, 07:37 AM

Hello

Yes it might feel strong and probably is ok and might be a waste of 2 minutes time but the only way to tell if it has as much as original is to do the test the way i described, low ,magnetism equals low voltage which is exactly what you seem to have even though your coils ohm ok. Do you understand how it works now? It doesn't matter to me if you don't want to test it, it's not my bike with a new chinese cdi two good ign coils [one new chinese] and 2 good source coils [one new taiwanese] and still have low voltage. There is a magnetism spec just like there is a coil ohm spec etc.

tvpierce

05-07-2013, 07:51 AM

I'm glad you brought this up again.

I'm not sure I understand how this test works.

Instructions from your earlier post:

FLYWHEEL MAGNETISM – Another extremely remote but easy to test possibility is that your flywheel has lost some magnetism. The chances are close to 0 but why not test it? Just ohm your charge coil and voltage output with it connected and disconnected if possible and compare it to kb’s if it is the same your magnetism is good if it’s different it’s most likely your magnetism is low instead of a bad charge coil.

Thanks.

barnett468

05-07-2013, 09:12 AM

Hello

FLYWHEEL MAGNETISM – Another extremely remote but easy to test possibility is that your flywheel has lost some magnetism. The chances are close to 0 but why not test it? Just ohm your charge coil and voltage output with it connected and disconnected if possible and compare it to kb’s if it is the same your magnetism is good if it’s different it’s most likely your magnetism is low instead of a bad charge coil.

PG 16-5 shows the static test for the charge coil and voltage regulator, try those then the magnet test. Others like kbonly know this system better than I do so if they see this they may help but I think you can do the following.

ACTIVE CHARGING CIRCUIT AMP OUTPUT TEST PG 16-4 IN MANUL

WIRING DIAGRAM – Pulse generator is a coil also but I don’t see a test for it, might have missed or may not be one see PG 18-5. Maybe you can ohm this and someone may ohm theirs for you also so you can compare .

1. set meter to like 25volts.

2. check voltage at battery

3. start bike check voltage at battery.

4. rev bike to around 3000 rpm and check voltage at battery.

5. let bike idle then unplug charge coil [hopefully it will stay running] and test voltage from charge coil at idle and 3000 rpm.

Post findings.

tvpierce

05-07-2013, 06:05 PM

Hi Barnett.

I'm at work right now, so will break out the manual for the full write up, then perform the test.

As always, thanks!

BTW, the resistance spec for the pulse coil is 30 ohm (+/- 10 ohm). Mine tests at 27 ohm.

kb0nly

05-07-2013, 10:47 PM

Just got back here... Wow a lot of posts went up while i was away!!

Sounds to me like it was a source coil issue then but now you need to test it again... As for the tab position, the 200ES truly is unique in that regard. All the replacements on the market are centered tab so they fit more model years, it will fit on the 200ES it just looks like it won't!

I doubt its the timing or timing chain, i mean you should check the chain tension when you get it running, but i doubt its timing. Timing wouldnt effect the voltage or the low spark, it would just be sparking at the wrong time.

Let me know what you have for voltage when you get it running with the new coil. It could be a bad flywheel magnet, but that would truly be a first for me, i haven't replaced a single flywheel due to bad magnets over the years, and i have dragged some trikes back from the brinks of storage hell, one we had to bead blast the flywheel to get all the rust off, still worked perfectly after!

tvpierce

05-08-2013, 01:00 PM

barnett468

05-08-2013, 02:04 PM

Got real busy at work yesterday, so just got the engine back together this morning. Checked that I had spark at the plug -- I did -- but it wouldn't start. Checked spark again, and no spark... so I now have intermittent spark.

I break out the meter.

I have current coming out of the Source Coil.

I have current from the Source Coil going into the CDI.

I have current from the Pulse Coil going into the CDI.

But no current coming out of the CDI to the ignition coil.

Seems to point to a bad CDI (even though it's a new Chinese unit).

Have a couple more Chinese CDIs on order. Might be here this weekend.

I'm so close I can smell it! :-)

Will keep you posted.

Hello

Just curious the source of your voltage is now coming from your battery with the key on because nyou no longer have spark?

What does your source coil ohm to now?

I think your current lack of spark may still be the source coil since you had to resolder it and it is the only thing you messed with this time.

You must know you can’t check the voltage regulator function etc. if it is not running.

I personally would reinstall the original source coil [since it still ohmed ok] for the new cdi test and if it still doesn’t run right then try the new Taiwanese source coil again.

tvpierce

05-08-2013, 05:20 PM

Hi Barnett.

There is no battery connected.

Source Coil has a resistance of 240 ohms. And while I can't get an accurate reading on Source Coil output voltage, my meter can detect the presence of voltage when I use the pull starter.

kb0nly

05-08-2013, 07:13 PM

Hello

Just curious the source of your voltage is now coming from your battery with the key on because nyou no longer have spark?

What does your source coil ohm to now?

I think your current lack of spark may still be the source coil since you had to resolder it and it is the only thing you messed with this time.

You must know you can’t check the voltage regulator function etc. if it is not running.

I personally would reinstall the original source coil [since it still ohmed ok] for the new cdi test and if it still doesn’t run right then try the new Taiwanese source coil again.

The 200ES has a separate lighting/alternator coil and ignition/source coils. I had one running for a while that didn't even have the lighting/alternator coils in the motor, took a while to find a good used one to replace the one that burnt up.

That's the nice thing about them actually, the two systems are totally separate so there is no cross checking one system when the other isn't working right.

The intermittent spark could still be the source coil, but try replacing the CDI with another one and see what happens, if you still get the same results then it must be a connection somewhere or the source coil yet. Have you tried swapping the pickup coil for the advancer? If you have a spare one i would try that to, i have had that cause intermittent spark before as well.

tvpierce

05-11-2013, 06:25 AM

Update:

So my new Chinese CDIs came in the mail yesterday. I had other plans for the evening, so just had a few minutes to put one in. Before I swapped the part, I checked spark. It was intermittent. Tried starting the engine, and it sputtered once, then nothing. Swapped the CDI, and it fired right up, first pull. It's idling very high (even though the idle screw is turned all the way out), and got pretty hot -- pretty quickly: the exhaust header was glowing red within about 5 minutes.

So there's fire in the hole, but seemingly a carburetion issue. This is with the new Chinese carb on. I may switch back to the OEM Keihin carb (which has a fresh rebuild kit in it).

The new Source Coil is putting out 33 volts at the high idle -- I didn't check to see if it fluctuated with engine RPM. Nowhere near the 50 volts at idle, and 76 at WOT that KB was getting, but hey, it's sparking and running.

Will poke around a bit more this morning and report back what I find.

barnett468

05-11-2013, 07:03 AM

Hello

Check the timing it sounds like from this description and the one you posted on the other guys post the total advance is WAY off. I would not touch the jets until you do or you might be chasing your tail all year on it. The cdi may have some advance as another previous member mentioned. If you jet it without checking the timing and it still runs bad i'll just wish you luck..

tvpierce

05-11-2013, 07:10 AM

Hi Barnett.

Excellent point re: timing. While I had the cover off replacing the Source Coil, I marked the flywheel with white-out as you suggested. I just didn't have time to check it last night. Heading out there now.

Will let you know what I find.

Thanks.

barnett468

05-11-2013, 07:32 AM

Hello

Ok cool, easy to forget things when one is excited and there is so much information! If it has too much advance it is the cdi and the last hope i have heard of for reducing cdi advance by adding resistors to each side of the source coil if it has two wires. i have an article on it. kbonly may also know. you could also lock up or reduce the centrifugal advance until it reaches the correct total advance or just buy the correct JAPANESE CDI, lol.

kb0nly

05-11-2013, 10:09 PM

If its running hot and the idle isn't coming down i would suspect air leak or mixture screw set too lean, also it could be the main needle isn't on the right clip position or a jet thats too small. The chinese carbs do work good, generally when someone asks me why it won't run right i find another problem related to them replacing the carb, bad o-ring on the intake, cracked intake, etc.

Check the timing for sure, its easier than you think, turn the flywheel with the recoil until you get it to the F mark, then with the flywheel on the F the advancer and the pickup aka pulser coil should line up, they both have a line on them. If not loosen the screws for the pickup and turn it to match the advancer. The advancer is keyed to the camshaft, and i wouldn't bother removing the CDI base to check the cam unless its like way way way off, to the point that the pickup can't be adjusted to line up the mark to the advancer.

Sounds like you mainly have a fuel/carb issue now. If you removed the intake from the head make sure the O-ring on the front of the rubber intake is intact and good, they flatten with age and won't seal anymore. If thats good check over the intake good for cracks, if no problems there then its in the carb. Compare the jets to the stock carb, check the needle setting, adjust the mixture screw by going full clockwise til lightly seated then turn back out counter clockwise 2 1/4 turns, see how its idling now, turn the mixture screw clockwise very slowly until it sputters and dies, then from that point back it out counterclockwise one turn and you should be good there.

Check the spark plug also, if its lean the plug should tell the tale also, the fact that the pipe was that hot it must have been lean running for sure.

At least you got fire now!!!! Now i know at least one of these CDI's can be bad new, i think your voltage is still a tad low from the source coil though.

barnett468

05-12-2013, 01:42 AM

Hello tvpierce

Update: So my new Chinese CDIs came in the mail yesterday. I had other plans for the evening, so just had a few minutes to put one in. Before I swapped the part, I checked spark. It was intermittent. Tried starting the engine, and it sputtered once, then nothing. Swapped the CDI, and it fired right up, first pull. It's idling very high (even though the idle screw is turned all the way out), and got pretty hot -- pretty quickly: the exhaust header was glowing red within about 5 minutes. So there's fire in the hole, but seemingly a carburetion issue. This is with the new Chinese carb on. I may switch back to the OEM Keihin carb (which has a fresh rebuild kit in it). The new Source Coil is putting out 33 volts at the high idle -- I didn't check to see if it fluctuated with engine RPM. Nowhere near the 50 volts at idle, and 76 at WOT that KB was getting, but hey, it's sparking and running. Will poke around a bit more this morning and report back what I find.

WTF did you change your CARB before trying the new CDI, did you think the new carb would make your missing spark return? Please don’t change any “bleepin” thing until someone suggests it. It makes it next to IMPOSSIBLE for at least me to help people that do that and I have a new fancy TV I could be watchin instead of undoing peoples “fubars”. See the info I posted at bottom of post.

Hello It sounds like a CDI to me so far, read the 3ww link below on where to buy a Chinese one for $5.00 and connect it to your system if you want to try a cheap way out. WARNING, buy a couple because you might get a faulty new one. I would buy a known good used one if possible.
ATC 200 WEAK/NO SPARK LINK http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/157166-84-Honda-200ES-Poor-Running...-Ignition

I have very rarely seen a CDI on a 200s go bad. Have you disconnected the kill switch and checked for spark? I have seen dozens of kill switches go bad, but on the 200s's I have only ever seen 2 go bad. 1 of those was because of a engine fire. LOL I wished you lived close to me. I would have you some spark within an hour. Howdy

Exact opposite here, i have replaced a half dozen CDI's on 185's and 200's in the last year alone. Even one on a 125M also.

I posted the quotes above simply to show whoever is interested how 1 person can have one experience and another can have one that is EXACTLY opposite. I suggest to anyone with a problem that they consider ALL suggestions given and do ALL tests and check ALL things suggested by everyone no matter how unrelated to the problem they may seem to be. Keep in mind, in the end whether your bike ever runs right again or not has no effect on our lives at ALL just yours. Please don’t be like the _____ in the link at the bottom of my post.

Kbonly, below is the post I’m not sure you saw.

My new cheap CDIs arrived in the mail today. I was just itchin' to see if I could get mine to work. I went out immediately when I got home. Tested spark with the first/already installed cheap CDI: intermittent/weak spark with the plug removed, wouldn't start with the plug in. Installed the new/cheap CDI, and it fired up immediately and ran strong. It still idles high and has a mid-throttle stumble, but I believe those are in the carb... so I'll see if I can get those sorted. We'll see. Just pointing out that it CAN be in the CDI... but still, check everything.

The reason I thought his advance might be the the most likely cause of his problem [even though it might seem unlikely] is because of the following.

a. His pipe is getting red hot but it has a mid throttle stumble.

b. The stumble suggests either a too rich or an improper advance condition.

c. The red hot pipe suggests a lean or improper advance condition.

d. The fact that his stumble is at mid throttle [maybe 2500 rpm] suggests to me that it is more likely the timing then the jetting.

e. If a lean condition was causing his red hot pipe condition it would not “stumble” at all, it would have a huge lean spot and have a lean “bog”.

If one thinks this it’s easy to help someone read the following posts, at least the ones with the “#” next to them, keep in mind these are only 13 posts out of 102. I told him around post #50 his CDI was the most likely cause of his problem. Problems helping members like the one in the link below are NOT an isolated incident.

#76, 78, 80, 83, #84, 86, #88, 93, #96, 97, #99, #100, #101

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/156196-225dx-No-Power.../page6?highlight=splangeland

tvpierce

05-12-2013, 08:29 AM

Hi Barnett.

Easy there Hoss! :-)

Points well taken about approaching diagnostics logically and methodically. While I don't expect you or anyone (except me, since it's my trike) to remember all the minutia of a 60+ post thread -- I believe we've been pretty logical and methodical here.

Just to go over how we got to where we are now: This thread started out as an off-throttle stumble/bog/weak spark issue. With the help of 3WW members -- you included -- I confirmed the resistance of the Source Coil, Pulse Coil, and Ignition Coil were within spec. Given the age of the trike, I felt it reasonable to replace the inexpensive/common failure ignition parts -- figuring even if they haven't failed, it wouldn't hurt to "freshen" the ignition system. Replaced the Ignition Coil: no change. Replaced the CDI (with Chinese unit): no improvement, in fact seemed to make the stumble/bog a bit worse.
All this time mind you, the engine would start fine, and idle fine... but run very rich (black fouled plug in short time). I had the carb apart couple of times, and it appeared clean and in good working order, but still decided it was prudent to install a carb rebuild kit (Moose Racing) to ensure everything was good. The carb rebuild did slightly improve the "crispness" of the fueling, but the stumble/bog continued. This is the point at which I ordered the Chinese carb. I still think this was I logical course of action given that the carb is 29 years old, and although I found no signs of excessive wear, it could be worn from use.
I installed the new carb, and found no improvement in the off idle performance. It did however increase the idle speed to about where it is now -- and I could not adjust it lower (idle speed set screw all the way out).

While checking/confirming voltage/current through the entire ignition system (using a meter to confirm output/input values at the Source Coil, Pulse Coil, CDI Ignition Coil, and Spark Plug) the "weak spark" condition developed into an "very intermittent" spark condition -- to the point that the engine would no longer start or run. Testing pointed to he CDI (input voltage was present from the Source Coil and the Pulse Coil, but no output voltage to the Ignition Coil). New CDI and new Source Coil were ordered. Source Coil was replaced: didn't correct the problem (didn't expect it to correct the no-spark issue, but hoped it would strengthen spark once spark was restored). Installed new CDI: spark restored! And appears to be at full strength.

This gets us to where we are now: Good spark, easy starting, strong idle -- although very high and apparently lean.

I really appreciate the help I've received from you and other members. Hope that helps clarify where we are, and how we got here.

Thanks.

(More info re: status of ignition advance in my next post.)

tvpierce

05-12-2013, 09:42 AM

barnett468

05-12-2013, 10:08 AM

Hello tvpierce

Just curious, did you read the posts noted in the string at the bottom of the page? If not you might just for entertainment value. I understand you being impatient but your interpretation of being logical vs that of people that have years of experience doing this, some at the highest levels may vary just a bit. Of course it’s your bike but everyone except I and one other member abandoned the guy in the link at the bottom of the post for obvious reasons that are obvious when reads just the few posts I mentioned. I know KB has spent a lot of time on this and I can’t speak for him but again as for me it doesn’t help me to help you if change stuff without first checking the timing. I personally don’t consider removing ORIGINAL Japanese made parts from your Japanese motorcycle that test perfectly good according to the manual and then replacing them with AFTERMARKET parts for no GOOD reason at all with ones made in China and TAIWAN. If I remember correctly I was the one that suggested your NEW $5.00 [shipping included] CHINESE CDI was likely bad and KB said he hasn’t seen a bad one yet. Like I said in the beginning of my previous post, different people have different experiences and sometimes know different things. Of course we don’t know if your NEW $5.00 [shipping included] CHINESE CDI was defective or if it’s damage was caused by your breaking and installation of you new TAIWAINESE source coil but it’s failure coincided EXACTLY with that event according to your post, Hmmmm. Like I said I could just be watching my new fancy tv if you prefer. I know you will EVENTUALLY get it running properly someday with or without me and I have no intentions or desire to try and take over his “job” here and it looks to me like KB will hang in there with you anyway. So I’m happy to continue to contribute what little I may be able to as long as I don’t get frustrated, lol. There’s several other members here that could use whatever knowledge and experience I may have to help them mess their bikes up, lol.

It’ sounds close now probably ign timing/advance possibly from the new CHINESE CDI as I suggested or other non Japanese electrical parts and/or jetting. Now watch it will be a defective spark plug, lol.

Regarding your “minutia” [very good, I had to look that up in Websters, lol but it did infer that in a case where there is more than just 1 minutia being referred to that one should use the plural form], yes there has been a lot of info and a lot of posts and it looks like your problem is getting narrowed down now so hopefully for all it doesn’t end up beating the record below of 100 before it is finally fixed.

RICH CONDITION – Yes I came in late and didn’t read ALL the posts because it was a bit more than I wanted to really do at the time but I can say that I would have had you check ign timing, cam timing, carb jet size and install orig sizes if bike is stock, check float level with a clear plastic tube to insure it was not too high even if floats themselves were was set correctly,check amount of play between carb slide and body [this and the jet needle and needle jet are the only things that wear out in a carb] engine compression, valve settings and air leaks with flammable brake fluid. Once ALL these things were good I then would have addressed the weak spark issue if it still ran bad. My theory is if it ain’t broke don’t replace it with CHINESE and TAIWANESE parts, lol. I hope you did ALL these before you simply started changing electrical parts.

1. If it’s electrical and one even looks at it, it will go bad.

2. The purpose of an electrical partis to develop an intermittent problem so it’s near impossible to test for a problem

3. It’s a JAPANESE bike so if was mine I personally am not going to put CHINESE and/or TAIWANESE parts on it.

barnett468

05-12-2013, 10:55 AM

Update:

With the engine running, the timing is advanced at high idle. I can correct the advance for idle by retarding the Pulse Coil to its limit, but then it still over-advances when trying to accelerate. I tried wiring the mechanical advance closed, and that did help reduce advance at idle, but then the timing won't advance at all as RPMs go up... which indicates to me that if there is in fact advance built into the CDI, that it's static, not a dynamic advance curve that is affected by RPM. Does that seem correct?

Hello

I am a bit confused by your post, please answer the following questions if you want my help.
With your pulse coil fully retarded does the advance on your flywheel show that it is correct for idle? Yes or No.

It this IMPOSSIBLE for the timing to be stock at idle based on your description unless the max advance limiter on your mechanical advance is worn beyond the service limit allowing it to advance beyond factory spec.

If it is still advanced more than stock at idle with mechanical advance PROPERLY locked in the “0” position than you MUST either REPLACE YOUR $5.00 CHINES CDI with a CDI that does NOT have a built in ignition advance [one CDI that I know of that meets this criteria is an ORIGINAL JAPANESE HONDA one] or try to reduce it using matched resistors [value to be determined through testing] as I mentioned in post #59 [good luck with that].

What carb is currently on it?

Did you check the items on your NON CHINESE carb that I said I would have suggested you check and correct in post #62?

I personally would leave whatever carb is currently on it and NOT change another single thing UNTIL your advance is PROPERLY fixed but go ahead and do whatever you want, I still have my new TV to watch.

barnett468

05-12-2013, 11:22 AM

Hello tvpierce

If I remember correctly you also said you had only about 1/2 the voltage from BOTH your source coils that KB had so if that is the case it’s remotely possible that after you get your advance issue corrected you may still have an engine stumble and what APPEARS to be a rich condition due to insufficient voltage from your source coil. This stuff isn’t complicated at all is it?

Does this now mean that KB’s CHINESE CDI also has advance built into it and if so is his bike running well because he retarded his electrical advance via the pulse coil and his mechanical advance just happens to stick where it only allows for partial advance?

If his does not have advance built into it and yours apparently does then why is that?

Does KB have the exact same CDI as you do?

I now starting to think you might get a bit closer to 100 posts [like the other guy I mentioned] than I previously thought you would before this is over.

barnett468

05-12-2013, 12:00 PM

Hello tv pierce

If you check your advance with a timing lite and with your mechanical advance locked securely in the 0 advance position then it means that whatever advance your CHINESE CDI does possess is fully advanced at idle.

Since this makes no sense it makes to design a CDI this way it starts to make me wonder if your CDI might not have any advance at all but instead simply has a certain minimum voltage at which it will fire and the adjustment range of the pulse coil is designed to work within that range.

Irregardless, if your timing is still advanced slightly at idle then if there is room to slot your pulse coil mounting plate enough to get the timing where it needs to be and you don’t see any ignition advance at high throttle then you can simply run your mechanical advance as it was designed to be [not wired] and your timing problem will be taken care of. You could also open the CDI and simply change the value of whatever part is in there that controls this until it fires within the adjust range of the pulse coil.

I suggest that if your timing at idle is advanced more than stock spec and there is NO additional advance at high throttle that you try to make the pulse coil more adjustable so you can get it timed correctly at idle then unwire your mechanical advance and check with timing lite again.

If full advance is still more than stock then your mechanical advance is worn out and needs repair or replacement.

kb0nly

05-12-2013, 11:21 PM

tvpierce - as far as i have been able to ascertain the CDI units don't have any advance built into them, there is some models that have an adjustment but these are a very basic model with no timing alteration. You might actually have a bad advancer, the springs are weak allowing it to advance when it shouldn't be. I replaced mine last year because it was worn out and wobbling badly, a lot of guys have found them with broken parts and weak springs so i would check it to see if the springs properly return it when you turn it clockwise by hand it should spring back.

barnett468 - if i jumped over your posts it was because they were too damn long... I don't know what the whole rant was about there but i don't have time to read five posts that are like a half page long.

barnett468

05-13-2013, 12:43 AM

Hello tvpierce

I’ll answer your static vs dynamic timing question to the best of my ability shortly.

KBONLY

tvpierce - as far as i have been able to ascertain the CDI units don't have any advance built into them, there is some models that have an adjustment but these are a very basic model with no timing alteration. You might actually have a bad advancer, the springs are weak allowing it to advance when it shouldn't be. I replaced mine last year because it was worn out and wobbling badly, a lot of guys have found them with broken parts and weak springs so i would check it to see if the springs properly return it when you turn it clockwise by hand it should spring back.

barnett468 - if i jumped over your posts it was because they were too damn long... I don't know what the whole rant was about there but i don't have time to read five posts that are like a half page long.

No problem thanks for mentioning it. The rant was minor and only 3 lines and was nothing meant against him in general as he is obviously trying very hard and is at least able and willing to buy new parts whether he needs them or not, lol. Most the rest was info.

He appears to have too much advance at IDLE with the mechanical advance locked in 0 [using wire] as I suggested he do and the pulse coil retarded to it’s limit. So according to his description something in his CDI must be causing the spark to be fired at the wrong time. After reading his description I personally thought there was no advance in his CDI also but instead something that caused it to fire at a time that is different than the original CDI.

It seems like either this is the problem [built in CDI firing time] or his description is inaccurate, but his description seemed pretty good to me just lacking in a few details.

Again I readily admit am not the king of electrical nor do I want to be but I do know a lot [but not everything] about ign advances and rev limiters etc. Not only is it hard for me to believe a $5.00 [including shipping] CHINESE CDI would have an ign advance it’s hard for me to believe it has anything in it at all besides just AIR! Lol.

I just hope he is able to get it going soon now after all this and doesn’t do things in the process that haven’t been suggested that may make it difficult for some others to diagnose his problem, that’s all.

barnett468

05-13-2013, 12:51 AM

Hello KBONLY

I am at least aware that the pulse coil regulates the time a charge is sent to the CDI telling it to fire so since it now appears by his description to fire out of the adjustment range of the pulse coil [too soon] it seems to me that there must be another feature in the CDI that also regulates that, maybe a resistor or capacitor etc?

tvpierce

05-13-2013, 06:40 AM

With your pulse coil fully retarded does the advance on your flywheel show that it is correct for idle? Yes or No.

Yes

It this IMPOSSIBLE for the timing to be stock at idle based on your description unless the max advance limiter on your mechanical advance is worn beyond the service limit allowing it to advance beyond factory spec.

That can't be ruled out. I see below that both you and KB suggest that it's certainly something to investigate further.

What carb is currently on it?

The Chinese carb.

tvpierce

05-13-2013, 06:56 AM

He appears to have too much advance at IDLE with the mechanical advance locked in 0 [using wire] as I suggested he do and the pulse coil retarded to it’s limit.

Hi Barnett.

That's incorrect. With the mechanical advance wired shut, the timing at idle is good. (but of course it doesn't advance with RPMs, so stumbles severely)

That does seem to point hard to the mechanical advance, doesn't it?

barnett468

05-13-2013, 08:07 AM

Hi Barnett. With the mechanical advance wired shut, the timing at idle is good. (but of course it doesn't advance with RPMs, so stumbles severely) That does seem to point hard to the mechanical advance, doesn't it?

Hello tvpierce

Thanks for the replies.

My opinion is that it totally eliminates the possibility of the CDI having any advance [or at least any additional after whatever your idle rpm is] unless the CDI advance is coming in AFTER the rpm at which the engine stumbles and you simply can’t see it with the timing lite because the stumble is so sever it is preventing the engine from ever reaching that rpm, however again it seems highly unlikely for a $5.00 CHINESE CDI [shipping included] to have an advance. I now they can build things cheap but this is beyond ludicrous and actually hope it does work out.

ENGINE PERFORMANCE – Please forgive my forgetfulness regarding this, as you said it is hard to remember the minutia’s [plural as recommended by Websters, lol.] in all the posts but…

With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] does your pipe get red and if so under what condition and how long does it take?

With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] does your bike run well or have a flat spot [like lean] or a burble] like rich? ¼, ½ or full throttle acceleration.

If it burbles/stumbles, is it worse or less than with the mechanical advance wired closed at 0 advance?

With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] approximately how far beyond the factory timing mark does it fire ie. 1/4” 1/2”? I can’t possibly imagine it has more than ¼” more because even that would be an enormous amount for the mechanical advance to wear. Now you can tell me you have an adjustable timing lite and it over advances “X” degrees, lol.

barnett468

05-13-2013, 08:10 AM

Does it run better with or without the advance and if so what are the performance issues?

barnett468

05-13-2013, 08:26 AM

Hello tvpierce

Does it look like there is some way to LIMIT the amount of total advance the mechanical advance has buy installing a nut and bolt in the advance slot or something? If so try that then check total advance with your lite.

If you can do that then check to see about when your total advance comes in if you want. Or just see if your advance springs feel loose. If it has full advance too soon it will cause detonation and other problems too.

If you can get the timing close then I would suggest trying to fix/jet whatever carb you want to run in the end if need be.

barnett468

05-13-2013, 08:58 AM

Hello tvpierce

Ok, I just looked at an advancer in the link below. It looks like the weights stop on the upright tabs. You can compare yours to this to see if it appears worn [the one in the photo does not] irregardless here’s an easy way to limit it’s amount of total advance. I have done the following before on many advances.

Get a piece of thin wall, non reinforced rubber tubing from either the hardware store or auto parts store that is around 1/4” id [gas line is WAY too thick] and 6” long. Cut two pieces that are the same size length as distance from the base of the weight stop to just under the top where it has the little nub on each end [the trapped height] then put a small amount of grease on them and install them. Put a little grease on the back side if the spring touches it but it should just barely graze it if at all if the tubing thickness is correct.

Do your stops look worn on the sides, any photos?

Spark advancer photo

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Honda-ATC200S-Spark-Advancer-84-ATC-200-S-/111068241855

tvpierce

05-13-2013, 10:12 AM

With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] does your pipe get red and if so under what condition and how long does it take?

Yes, it gets red hot with the advance able to function, and while sitting at idle. I haven't specifically measured the length of time it takes to get red hot, but I can say with some certainty that it's between 2 & 5 minutes, because it is not red hot when I've shut it down after just a couple of minutes, but it is red hot when I've shut it down after about 5 minutes. I know, not scientific... but at least a ballpark figure.

Hello tvpierce
With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] does your bike run well or have a flat spot [like lean] or a burble] like rich? ¼, ½ or full throttle acceleration.

It starts and idles well, but it idles very high: I'm guessing 1500 - 2000 RPM (I don't know the exact RPM because my automotive meter with tach doesn't seem to work on this motor -- don't know why.) To be honest, I don't feel qualified to judge whether it's a lean or rich stumble. The stumble comes on at about 1/4 throttle -- just a little bit off idle. If I continue to give it more throttle (1/2, 3/4, even full) it will never stall, it just continues to bog.

If it burbles/stumbles, is it worse or less than with the mechanical advance wired closed at 0 advance?

The severity is about the same, but the symptom feels different. I presume because the timing is severely retarded.

With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] approximately how far beyond the factory timing mark does it fire ie. 1/4” 1/2”? I can’t possibly imagine it has more than ¼” more because even that would be an enormous amount for the mechanical advance to wear. Now you can tell me you have an adjustable timing lite and it over advances “X” degrees, lol.
No, no fancy adjustable timing light. :-)
I'm not sure how far advanced it goes. I'll have to recheck making a note of that. I can check tonight after work.

tvpierce

05-13-2013, 10:15 AM

Hello tvpierce

Ok, I just looked at an advancer in the link below. It looks like the weights stop on the upright tabs. You can compare yours to this to see if it appears worn [the one in the photo does not] irregardless here’s an easy way to limit it’s amount of total advance. I have done the following before on many advances.

Get a piece of thin wall, non reinforced rubber tubing from either the hardware store or auto parts store that is around 1/4” id [gas line is WAY too thick] and 6” long. Cut two pieces that are the same size length as distance from the base of the weight stop to just under the top where it has the little nub on each end [the trapped height] then put a small amount of grease on them and install them. Put a little grease on the back side if the spring touches it but it should just barely graze it if at all if the tubing thickness is correct.

Do your stops look worn on the sides, any photos?

I don't have a photo - will get one this evening. I know mine have the rubber pads on the stops -- they look to be OEM.

barnett468

05-13-2013, 12:30 PM

Hello tvpierce

Thanks for a full and detailed reply however I’m sorry but by based upon all your previous comments and the ones pasted below I’ve determined unequivocally that your bike is doing things that are near IMPOSSIBLE therefore I have conclusively determined it is possessed to a point where not even the minister from the exorcist movie can help you, please LOSE my number!

I don't have a photo - will get one this evening. I know mine have the rubber pads on the stops -- they look to be OEM.

Ok, great, however that’s a bad sign, your parts are not cooperating, lol. The rubber stops will probably be smashed in enough to allow maybe around 8 degrees more advance over stock [that’s just a guess] which isn’t enough to cause as big of a problem that you are experiencing. If you are lucky they are smashed a lot and/or they are thin and some new home made ones will be thicker.

If your timing lite flashes around 3/8” or more past the full advance timing mark [around 20 degrees] with your advancer as it currently is [just unwired] then the greatest contributor to your excessive full advance is your NEW $5.00 CHINESE CDI [shipping included] simply because it would be near [but not completely] impossible for a stock unmodified advancer to wear out that much especially since the OEM rubber stops are still on it.

xxxxx

Yes, it gets red hot with the advance able to function, and while sitting at idle.

Is the ignition timing correct at idle with the mechanical advance working, if not then your advance springs are extremely weak and need to be replaced?

If it is not advanced at idle then it sounds like an air leak to me, did you previously check for those?

Did it idle too high with your previous carb?

Xxxxx

I haven't specifically measured the length of time it takes to get red hot, but I can say with some certainty that it's between 2 & 5 minutes, because it is not red hot when I've shut it down after just a couple of minutes, but it is red hot when I've shut it down after about 5 minutes. I know, not scientific... but at least a ballpark figure.

Great description, WAY scientific for me for this particular problem. Same answer and questions as above.

xxxxx

It starts and idles well, but it idles very high: I'm guessing 1500 - 2000 RPM (I don't know the exact RPM because my automotive meter with tach doesn't seem to work on this motor – don't know why.)

Again, close enough for me for now. Same answer and questions as above.

xxxxx

To be honest, I don't feel qualified to judge whether it's a lean or rich stumble.

Honesty is ALWAYS best in my opinion. Your lack of qualification in this area are totally irrelevant to me. If need be you will be an expert before we’re done. The basics are really very simple, a lean condition never stumbles it simply just doesn’t increase the engine rpm as quickly if at all when the throttle is opened. Both rich and lean conditions are typically most noticeably while riding the bike. There you are now more qualified than many, lol.

Xxxxx

The stumble comes on at about 1/4 throttle -- just a little bit off idle. If I continue to give it more throttle (1/2, 3/4, even full) it will never stall, it just continues to bog.

I interpret the word “bog” to be a lean condition others don’t. Do you mean it is going from rich to lean?

Does the RPM continue to increase, in other words will it always reach full rpm approximately?

xxxxx

The severity is about the same, but the symptom feels different. I presume because the timing is severely retarded.

Have to think about that, could easily be carb but I would still fix timing first because you can not properly jet with bad timing.

xxxxx

No, no fancy adjustable timing light. :-)

No problem

xxxxx

I'm not sure how far advanced it goes. I'll have to recheck making a note of that. I can check tonight after work

Great

xxxxx

IMPORTANT

Did it idle high with the previous carb?

Is your pipe OEM or maybe a thin single wall aftermarket one?

How much choke does it take to start?

How cold is air typically when you are starting it?

Does it start easily, I think you said it did?

Have you tried to adjust your fuel mixture screw, not the carb slide idle screw?

What is it set at now, 1 , 2, 3 turns out from full in?

barnett468

05-13-2013, 01:01 PM

Hello tvpierce

Did you remove your old black plug and install a new one?

If you did then please remove it and take a photo if possible and also describe the color, white, lite tan, dark tan, dry black or moist gooey black. A new one will not have been in there long enough to get black more than likely though.

tvpierce

05-13-2013, 08:53 PM

Is the ignition timing correct at idle with the mechanical advance working, if not then your advance springs are extremely weak and need to be replaced?

Can springs be replaced by themselves, or are they only available with the whole advance mechanism?

If it is not advanced at idle then it sounds like an air leak to me, did you previously check for those?

Yes, checked for air leaks by spraying WD-40 over all the seams of the intake tract. Do not appear to have any leaks.

Did it idle too high with your previous carb?

No, that's why I suggested that I would change back to the OEM carb.

a lean condition never stumbles it simply just doesn’t increase the engine rpm as quickly if at all when the throttle is opened.

Given that description, I'd call it lean. It never acts as though it wants to stall, it acts almost as if there's a "governor" keeping it from advancing any further.

"The stumble comes on at about 1/4 throttle -- just a little bit off idle. If I continue to give it more throttle (1/2, 3/4, even full) it will never stall, it just continues to bog."
I interpret the word “bog” to be a lean condition others don’t. Do you mean it is going from rich to lean?

Does the RPM continue to increase, in other words will it always reach full rpm approximately?

No, it never reaches full RPM. It's limited to mid-range: I'm guessing 3K-3.5K RPM max.

How much choke does it take to start?

Full choke on cold start, but never after.

How cold is air typically when you are starting it?

60 degrees-ish

Does it start easily, I think you said it did?

With the new (Chinese & Taiwanese) ignition parts, it starts very easily on the first pull every time... it must be the quality of the parts! :-)

Have you tried to adjust your fuel mixture screw, not the carb slide idle screw?
c

Yes, with the pilot screw adjusted all the way in or all the way out, it makes no difference.

tvpierce

05-13-2013, 08:56 PM

BTW, it's in the 30s tonight, so I I'm not going out to fiddle with the wheeler tonight. Hope to have pics and/or video tomorrow.

Thanks!

BTW, this is post #84. 100, here we come! :-)

barnett468

05-14-2013, 03:17 AM

Hello tvpierce

xxxxx

Can springs be replaced by themselves, or are they only available with the whole advance mechanism?

Not available separately but I have gotten some close enough from an industrial hardware supply store. With your advancer at 0 your springs should have slight tension. If there is play in the spring [no tension] we’ll have to deal with that asap. If there is slight tension and advancer opens and closes smoothly you are ok. We’ll hope your stops are thin and thick ones will help reduce your over advance problem.

xxxxx

Yes, checked for air leaks by spraying WD-40 over all the seams of the intake tract. Do not appear to have any leaks.

I personally NEVER use WD 40 for this because it is not volatile enough in my opinion and therefore can sometimes miss small leaks. I use brake cleaner that says FLAMMABLE on the can and spray using the long narrow nozzle to focus the spray. Water base brake cleaner is most common now due to the EPA and won’t burn, lol.

xxxxx

No, that's why I suggested that I would change back to the OEM carb.

Ok good, at this point I will make at least a couple people happy including you and suggest that you do the following.

Check the gas level in the Chinese carb by installing a 14” long piece of CLEAR plastic hose to the drain nipple on the bottom of your carb float bowl, hold it next to the carb so the top is even with the top of the carb, open drain screw. The gas level should be around 1/8” below the bottom edge of the carb body where the bowl meets the carb. Adjust float as needed.

If float was low try carb as is. If it is still lean [red pipe only 3500 rpm etc] raiser the needle ALL the way by lowering the clip.

If it then runs good leave it, if it still runs bad install the old carb or just install the old carb now and try it if you want.

I have seen around 15 people here install Chinese carbs, most ran well out of the box, a few needed MINOR jetting, one guy gave up. I have never heard of a lean problem to the magnitude of the one you are describing from any of them.

xxxxx

Given that description, I'd call it lean. It never acts as though it wants to stall, it acts almost as if there's a "governor" keeping it from advancing any further. No, it never reaches full RPM. It's limited to mid-range: I'm guessing 3K-3.5K RPM max.

That’s a good description. I would wire those open on my mini bikes and wooden go carts, lol. Another way I would describe a rich condition to you. Ride at 1/4-1/2 throttle at a low engine rpm then open throttle al the way, if it is way to rich it will run like it has an electrical miss or like someone is spraying water in to your carb. The motor will stutter or burble etc which will decrease as your engine gains rpm.

I have never had a rich condition prevent an engine from building rpm’s.

Xxxxx

Full choke on cold start, but never after. 60 degrees-ish

Does not sound like it is EXTREMELY lean on pilot jet maybe 1 to 2 sizes too small. I think a higher float level 2 size bigger pilot and raised needle will get it close and maybe 2-3 up on the main.

Xxxxx

With the new (Chinese & Taiwanese) ignition parts, it starts very easily on the first pull every time... it must be the quality of the parts! :-)

Yeah, yeah, tell it to the hand! Perhaps if your NEW CHINESE $5.00 [shipping included] CDI box costs at LEAST $6.00 or more I might be more likely to believe that, lol. Aren't you the same guy that said your bike won't rev all the way and still had weak spark and you wanted to REMOVE your NEW CHINESE $29.95 [shipping NOT included] carb.? Did I remember enough minutia's for you, lol.

I thought you said your spark was still weak [pale yellow] not strong [lite blue], is this correct?

It may run fine this way we’ll see with the timing and carb repair however a weak spark now STRONGLY suggests a weak flywheel magnet. I would buy another.

Read the recent post below from jwalth6 on his 84 200S. I think the following was done with the pull starter from jwalth6 on his 84 200S. I think it was tested using the pull starter. Even he had 50volts from his source coil which further strongly suggests to me that either your volt meter is bad or your flywheel magnet is weak. If your spark is still weak it is most likely your magnet.

From jwalth6’s string.

“I have cheaked like everything you said. The black/y wire going to the coil had 50vt when on the x50 setting. All the ohms on everything are good. I already ordered a new cdi. Hopefully it fixes it. I will post with results.”

xxxxx

Yes, with the pilot screw adjusted all the way in or all the way out, it makes no difference.

It’s probably idling above the rpm range where that screw will have an effect.

Xxxxx

BTW, this is post #84. 100, here we come! :-)

Never happen, I predict you’ll be fixed by #99, lol.

barnett468

05-14-2013, 03:24 AM

Hello

Gas level test drawing pg 4-4.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/Yamaha/ytm200_yamaha_servicemanual.pdf

my1423

05-14-2013, 05:16 AM

Quick extra test.
On the advance mechanism find the magnet end. Black stripe and its magnetic.
Draw a white line on it lining up with the magnet on the bolt side. Outside. Making another timing mark.
Hook up your timing light and see if it is firing with the white line straight at the pulse coil.
Check it on pull starting not running.
Then running Rev it up and down.
If the line stays in one place pointed directly at the pulser coil on all rpms and starting the cdi has no advance.
Mechanical has no bearing on this. Just comparing where the trigger is vs the trip mag.
Because it is firing when the trigger coil is in place.
If it moves not pointing right at the coil then you have electronic advance.
You can also mark on the case idle loaction and high rev spot and measure the degree of change.

Now if your advance is jammed into no advance and your timing marks are 20 off and the pulse is aligned then your timing chain is not properly aligned or the something is funky with the flywheel or key.

One thing most do not know about these china cdi units is the rpm range. They are used on crank driven sensors and the atc is cam driven.
This drops the rpm advance range curve into the totally wrong curve for the rpms are halved.
Cdi wants to raise the curve all the way to apx 6000 rpm then lower after the advance after.
Since 3000 is 6000 well you get the point I hope.
This also magnifies the the degree curve. Crank vs computed time on cam.
So if the unit is set for 8 degree advance on a crank you will get 16 on the crank due to the 2-1 on cam!

If it has advance, You need a different cdi

If you run it with 20 degree advance we can all count on another 99 post thread on replacing a melted piston or burned valve starting with now I have no compression. JK LOL

tvpierce

05-14-2013, 06:40 AM

Hello

Gas level test drawing pg 4-4.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/Yamaha/ytm200_yamaha_servicemanual.pdf

I'm very familiar with the fuel level check from my in-line 4 motorcycles -- 4x the fun! I'm on to fuel injection on the bike now, but still have a Honda V twin that's carbureted.

my1423

05-14-2013, 06:45 AM

One other item to check.
With the crank on f make sure the advance unit mag is pointed straight up at the pulse coil.
If it is not you could have the wrong advance unit. Just because they look the same does not mean they are.
Backside pin has different locations for different bikes.
This will also be wrong if the cam chain is off, or a keyway, flywheel, ect.

barnett468

05-14-2013, 06:55 AM

Hello tvpierce

I'm very familiar with the fuel level check from my in-line 4 motorcycles -- 4x the fun!

Ok good, since I have no idea what anyone does and doesn’t know it seems logical to mention it instead of assuming you knew about it. Since you have experience with it it will be easy for you to do on a single cylinder when it's 30 degrees outside, lol.

xxxxx

I'm on to fuel injection on the bike now, but still have a Honda V twin that's carbureted.

Did you know that Honda supposedly built their original twin so they could beat the Harleys in flat track, 1/2 and 1 mile races etc. which they finally did after spending around a bazzilion dollars.

tvpierce

05-14-2013, 02:43 PM

I checked my mechanical advance, and I was incorrect: it does not have black pads to limit advance. I was able to make some pads using vinyl tubing. I had two thicknesses: one had a very thin wall, the other a bit thicker. I tried both, and in both cases, adding the pads inhibited the engine's ability to rev. Meaning it revved more freely (reached higher RPM) without the pads.

Using the timing light on the flywheel markings, I can see that it only advances about 1/4 inch past the "F" mark, so that seems right.

I can't get an accurate reading of timing at idle because I can't get the idle to settle down. I have a hunch about why the carb is causing a high idle, but let me get home and get it off the bike to look at it before I go making some wild allegations.

More later.

barnett468

05-14-2013, 06:36 PM

Hello tv oierce

Am I off my meds or am I correct in thinking that when I asked you specifically if the timing at isle was factory per manual that you said yes?

F lined up in the window is 10 degrees btdc and factory spec for full advance is 30 degrees btdc. If you tell me how big arounf the flywheel i will calculate exactly how far 20 degrees will be in inches past the F mark on your flywheel later today.

10 deg at F + 20 deg past F = 30 degrees total.

We'll get it but the timing you measure must be EXACT or at least very close to it in your case.

barnett468

05-15-2013, 02:21 AM

Hello

I just did a quick calculation to determine the approximate distance your full advance mark should be from the F. I based it upon the F mark being 2” from the center of the flywheel which is close enough but again if you had the actual diameter of the flywheel it would change slightly but not enough to make much difference.

30 degrees total advance [which is factory spec] will be 3/4” before the center of the F.

tvpierce

05-15-2013, 06:07 AM

Hello tv oierce

Am I off my meds or am I correct in thinking that when I asked you specifically if the timing at isle was factory per manual that you said yes?

I did say that, but it's since occurred to me that if the idle is high, then the ignition should be further advanced to match the higher RPM... correct?

tvpierce

05-15-2013, 06:31 AM

Quick update on the carb:

My suspicion was correct. When I originally installed the Chinese carb, the rubber boot between the carb and airbox went on much more difficult than it did on the Keihin carb --the throat on the Chinese carb is larger. I figured it was probably just thicker sidewall material -- perhaps because the aluminum is lower quality. Turns out it's more than that.
Chinese carb on the left, OEM Keihin carb on the right!

169515

The whole carb is MUCH bigger. I forgot to measure the throat of the Keihin carb while I had it off, but you can see it's significantly smaller. Furthermore, the slide chamber that the piston slides in is taller, so the throttle cable never allowed the piston to lower completely... which means the throttle was never allowed to close. (I confirmed this once I had the carb off the trike: the piston was 2-3 mm from being closed.

OEM Keihin carb is back on. The engine now starts perfectly and idles perfectly! Still has the original stumble/bog that I started with (although it's not quite as bad because the engine now has stronger/consistent spark), but at least now that's the only issue it's having.

Ran out of daylight last night, so didn't have a chance to investigate timing. Will do that later today.

barnett468

05-15-2013, 06:43 AM

I did say that, but it's since occurred to me that if the idle is high, then the ignition should be further advanced to match the higher RPM... correct?

Hello tvpierce

Not until the engine reaches between 1800 and 2100 RPM

Honda says the F mark SHOULD be in the center of window until the engine reaches between 1800 and 2100 RPM after which point it should begin moving clockwise.

The center of the F mark should move out of the window in a clockwise rotation until 3200-3500 RPM after which point it should stop moving.

The total distance the F should move from the center of the window is approximately 5/8”- 3/4”.

tvpierce

05-15-2013, 09:53 AM

OK, I finally figured out what I was doing wrong with my automotive multi-meter, so now I can get an accurate reading using the tach function.

With the engine turning about 1600 rpm, I can't get a reading on the timing marks with the light because oil is violently spewing out the sight hole! The engine doesn't smoke at all, so I don't think it can be blow-by from the rings. Any thoughts on that?

barnett468

05-15-2013, 10:06 AM

Hello

Yeah it figures, they only want you to test the timing at idle.

Make sure your oil level isn't too high.

Try removing oil fill cap to help relieve any possible pressure build up and try is again.

Tape a piece of clear kitchen saran wrap etc over the hole.

Will it now idle at 600 rpm?

Is the F in the window at 600 RPM?

barnett468

05-15-2013, 10:12 AM

Did you ever do a compression test?

As long as it's above 120 or so it's good enough for now.

dougspcs

05-15-2013, 10:15 AM

My manual says to set the ignition timing at 10' +-2' BTDC at an idle of 1400RPM +-100 (600???)

and compression should be 156+-14PSI.. (120???)

What are you using for reference as you are advising people?

tvpierce

05-15-2013, 10:47 AM

I didn't measure the RPM down that low, but yes, it idles flawlessly way down to a lumbering idle -- leisurely chugging along.

The lower I set the idle, the worse the oil spewing gets. At mid throttle, it doesn't spew at all.

I never did do a compression check, because I don't have a 12mm adapter for my gauge.

barnett468

05-15-2013, 11:10 AM

Hello tvpierce
\
Great, 1 more big problem solved now, what the heck is the timing at idle and when does it start and stop advancing? Are you finally going to tell us or are you trying to beat the other guys record post so you can win a seat of free steak knives.

barnett468

05-15-2013, 11:13 AM

The lower I set the idle, the worse the oil spewing gets.

Good, this is how it often is.

tvpierce

05-15-2013, 03:53 PM

OK, will try to check timing tonight.

kb0nly

05-15-2013, 09:04 PM

The flywheel sits in a oil bath so splattering oil out of that hole is perfectly normal, more at lower speed is also normal because the flywheel isn't flinging the oil off before the hole. As doug posted idle should be about 1400 rpm, i know i have mine just a bit slower than that but plus or minus say 100 rpm doesn't make a big difference.

Thats definitely not the right carb, i have another spare chinese carb and an original on the shelf here, they are exactly the same for bore and slide height. Me thinks the seller you got yours from sold you the wrong replacement.

tvpierce

05-16-2013, 08:45 AM

Thats definitely not the right carb, i have another spare chinese carb and an original on the shelf here, they are exactly the same for bore and slide height. Me thinks the seller you got yours from sold you the wrong replacement.

Yeah, I've responded to the seller... waiting to hear back. I know it's not for a 250ES -- that's a completely different style of carb. Wonder if it's for a 200X? Those used the same style of carb. (Not that it matters what it's for... just curious.)

tvpierce

05-16-2013, 12:09 PM

Tried again to check timing with the light on the flywheel -- there's no way I can do that. Even with the oil dipstick removed to relieve pressure, as soon as I remove the sight plug, oil is shooting out, completely covering the light with oil. I have to wear glasses to keep from getting oil in my eyes.

I did what my1423 suggested...

Quick extra test.
On the advance mechanism find the magnet end. Black stripe and its magnetic.
Draw a white line on it lining up with the magnet on the bolt side. Outside. Making another timing mark.
Hook up your timing light and see if it is firing with the white line straight at the pulse coil.
Check it on pull starting not running.
Then running Rev it up and down.
If the line stays in one place pointed directly at the pulser coil on all rpms and starting the cdi has no advance.
Mechanical has no bearing on this. Just comparing where the trigger is vs the trip mag.
Because it is firing when the trigger coil is in place.
If it moves not pointing right at the coil then you have electronic advance.
You can also mark on the case idle loaction and high rev spot and measure the degree of change.

Now if your advance is jammed into no advance and your timing marks are 20 off and the pulse is aligned then your timing chain is not properly aligned or the something is funky with the flywheel or key.

That actually worked really slick! I can see that the pulse coil and the magnetic trigger stay in perfect alignment, and I can tell that it's advancing as RPMs rise off idle. I can also see the mechanical advance mechanism moving behind the pulse coil.

barnett468

05-16-2013, 12:35 PM

Tried again to check timing with the light on the flywheel -- there's no way I can do that. Even with the oil dipstick removed to relieve pressure, as soon as I remove the sight plug, oil is shooting out, completely covering the light with oil. I have to wear glasses to keep from getting oil in my eyes.

I did what my1423 suggested...

That actually worked really slick! I can see that the pulse coil and the magnetic trigger stay in perfect alignment, and I can tell that it's advancing as RPMs rise off idle. I can also see the mechanical advance mechanism moving behind the pulse coil.

Hello

That’s very nice now please tell us if the lite fires on the F in the window because this has nothing to do with that unless you first properly line up the F in the window and then mark a line ANYWHERE on the rotating assembly and corresponding location on the block!

Now since the mechanical advance does NOT affect the timing marks this way please tell us how you now plan to check the actual total amount of advance created by the mechanical advance and the RPM at which it begins and finishes. Also since this is not accurate to determine actual timing at idle unless you line up the F in the window first and then mark the advancer and engine.

What do you plan to do now that you have not determined anything we haven’t already determined?

I suggested you could put plastic wrap over the window to contain oil splash and see if that helped so what happened to that suggestion.

Since it doesn’t splash at mid throttle then why don’t you simply put the F in the window mark advancer and engine/pickup accordingly then check to make sure lines on advancer line up at idle when lite flashes on them, then go to the window and check full advance at half throttle where you said the oil did NOT splash?

my1423

05-16-2013, 03:37 PM

Place a cinder block under the left wheel.
Do the timing check.
If you still have bad oil spray add some lumber till it has leaned far enough over to not spray you.
Idea is to get the majority of the oil into the right case. Not all! just the majority.
May need to add one to the front tire as well.

Not going 90 just enough to move the oil.

Your idle may go up as it runs in this position and the gas in the carb gets used.
You will have to put it level to get the fuel level up then shut it off, jack it up, start and check.
If it dies in this position, an easy way to see if your float level is way too low.
If gas starts poring out of the carb then you have too high a level or a bad float on the right.
Can also jack up the right side to check the left float.

tvpierce

05-16-2013, 05:35 PM

Hello

That’s very nice now please tell us if the lite fires on the F in the window because this has nothing to do with that unless you first properly line up the F in the window and then mark a line ANYWHERE on the rotating assembly and corresponding location on the block!

Now since the mechanical advance does NOT affect the timing marks this way please tell us how you now plan to check the actual total amount of advance created by the mechanical advance and the RPM at which it begins and finishes. Also since this is not accurate to determine actual timing at idle unless you line up the F in the window first and then mark the advancer and engine.

What do you plan to do now that you have not determined anything we haven’t already determined?

I suggested you could put plastic wrap over the window to contain oil splash and see if that helped so what happened to that suggestion.

Since it doesn’t splash at mid throttle then why don’t you simply put the F in the window mark advancer and engine/pickup accordingly then check to make sure lines on advancer line up at idle when lite flashes on them, then go to the window and check full advance at half throttle where you said the oil did NOT splash?

Barnett,

http://media.washtimes.com/media/community/image/2012/10/16/lighten-up-frances_t268.jpg?7f6c82c4e3ebc52dbf2e980dcc8631719 b6d5f11

While I fully appreciate the time, effort and knowledge you've committed to helping me get this sorted out, I don't appreciate the tone of many of your posts!

If you can't respond in a civil, respectful manner... please refrain from responding at all.

Thank you.

With 3 points of reference -- one on the Pulse Coil, one on the Magnetic Rotor, and one on the bolt holding the pulse/advance mechanism in place -- I learned the following:

1) There is no advance added by the Chinese CDI. (We suspected there wasn't, but now we know for sure)

2) At idle, the mechanical advance mechanism IS NOT advancing.

3) Coming off idle, the mechanical advance mechanism begins advancing.

4) The mechanical advance mechanism does reach full advance.

This is by no means a definitive test, but it's helpful.

tvpierce

05-16-2013, 05:42 PM

kb0nly

05-17-2013, 01:10 AM

Ok so you confirmed no advance on the CDI, which i also suspected because i haven't had any issue with them, and you also confirmed your mechanical advance is working... Awesome, so it sounds like no timing or spark issues now its just the carb problems correct?

Did you ever hear from the guy you bought that replacement carb from? I am still not sure what motor that carb should be on, i know for sure its not for a 200ES... LOL

tvpierce

05-17-2013, 08:57 AM

dougspcs

05-17-2013, 09:10 AM

Barnett,

http://media.washtimes.com/media/community/image/2012/10/16/lighten-up-frances_t268.jpg?7f6c82c4e3ebc52dbf2e980dcc8631719 b6d5f11

While I fully appreciate the time, effort and knowledge you've committed to helping me get this sorted out, I don't appreciate the tone of many of your posts!

If you can't respond in a civil, respectful manner... please refrain from responding at all.

Thank you.

.

Well put..welcome to the Barnett Show!

The reason why many senior members won't answer 'new member threads', he mows them down with this megaposts and corrects them!!

He himself is only and 4 month member..

dougspcs

05-17-2013, 09:27 AM

After a little more research, I bet it's an early 200x carb.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/141887-Carb-200-vs-200x
Makes sense: same basic engine, same displacement, but more punch & tuned for top end, so you'd need the larger throat.
(Looks like he was having the same basic problem as me in terms of throttle cable & idle.)

My engine was exhibiting the same bog/stumble with both carbs.

Could a stretched chain cause the problem I'm experiencing?

The reason I ask is that when I was checking the valve timing, the mark on the cam sprocket didn't line up exactly. It was less than a half-tooth behind, so if I had advanced it one tooth, it would have been "more off" in the other direction. This is the position with the flywheel in the "T" position:
169645

Is that normal -- or within spec?

While it isn't in spec, the timing chain should be ok for now. You can make up some valve timing with ignition timing adjustment..

There are units out there with much worse chains..just make sure the adjuster is taking it up enough that it doesn't rattle or worse..jump.

There is a YouTube video to describe how to do it 'old school' when the adjuster is old and sticks..

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GpoHh9EMhaU

my1423

05-17-2013, 09:48 AM

You could have a stretched chain, but the pic has it not so far off.
Easy test. Move the crank back and forth and see if there is slack in the chain.
If there is do an adjustment. If still slack, new chain.
Also if any links wiggle up down on the top of the sprocket as you turn it over, new chain.

More likely the bog is from the carb.
With this info should be able to tune it in.
What is the id number on the side of the carb? pd up high then ??? ??? on the side of the carb by the bowl. Last 3 do not matter.
Measure the width of the slide in mm.
Measure the manifold opening on the carb.

What are the numbers on the jets?
Any numbers on the needle?
Do the jets have the star k emblem on them? Generics do not and many suck!
What is your elevation?
Floats are they yellowish plastic or black hard foam?

tvpierce

05-17-2013, 11:14 AM

While it isn't in spec, the timing chain should be ok for now. You can make up some valve timing with ignition timing adjustment..

There are units out there with much worse chains..just make sure the adjuster is taking it up enough that it doesn't rattle or worse..jump.

There is a YouTube video to describe how to do it 'old school' when the adjuster is old and sticks..

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GpoHh9EMhaU

I've seen that video, and several others by that user, "D-Ray". His videos are fantastic. He's very knowledgeable, explains well, and shoots/edits nicely to boot.

Thanks.

tvpierce

05-17-2013, 12:32 PM

What is the id number on the side of the carb?

55A [B]VJ ("b" has a square around it.)

Measure the width of the slide in mm.

20mm

Measure the manifold opening on the carb.

Don't have the carb off now, but can measure it tomorrow.

What are the numbers on the jets?

It's a Moose Racing rebuild kit -- so no star k on them. I checked the jets in the kit against to jets I took out -- they were the same.
Main jet: 95
2nd jet: 38
Needle jet: 36J
I don't believe the needle had a number on it.
(I can confirm these when I take the carb off)

What is your elevation?

About 200' ASL (I'm right near the coast in Maine)

Floats are yellowish plastic.

kb0nly

05-17-2013, 02:07 PM

That in my opinion is chain stretch and has nothing to do with the tensioner, let me explain... The crank and cam are going counterclockwise so the left side is under tension from the crank, the slack or return side is the right side which is taken up by the tensioner... So looking at your pic the timing mark is just slightly to the right, meaning more length then normal on the left side of the chain, the tensioner won't fix that as its a set distance between the cam and crank sprockets, so the only reason for that additional length is chain stretch! Adding more tension to the slack side of the chain than is necessary will only wear the sprockets and tensioner, you might already have a good amount of wear but normally you can still get by with a new chain and tensioner without replacing the sprockets unless they are badly worn, i have a few examples of bad ones in the junk pile here, they can get really bad fast with a loose chain.

Its not that bad though in my opinion, i have seen far worse, if the tensioner is taking up the slack and it doesn't rattle or sound excessively loose its ok for now, but you will have to do a chain and tensioner soon!

my1423

05-17-2013, 07:43 PM

That china carb looks like a 30mm they use on the 220-250cc scooters. Plain too big!
You manifold will not line up proper on that carb. Big issues. Probable intake leak with it.
Stock carb or a 200x carb are the best for your machine unless you do a bunch of mods.

According to the official 84 200es honda manual that is the stock factory carb.
Stock main jet size and floats

I do not care for some aftermarket carb kits.
I have not used a moose kit.
On others they always seem to jack the pilot / slow jet.
The fuel hole will be the proper size, but the top 8 aeration holes will be too small or misplaced! Keyster Bad on this!
This can cause a low end throttle bog.
If you still have the stock keihin slow jet compare it to the moose.
If you have it clean it and use it. Standard Wire brush a single strand should go through the small center hole with a lot of turning to get out the junk.

Make sure that the collar that sits on the main jet is there.
Part 16 Can cause a top end bog.
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1984/ATC200ES+A/CARBURETOR/parts.html

Check that the float has no cracks or gas in it.

Stock settings for that carb are
#3 needle clip
1 7/8 turn out on pilot air screw
14mm float level nearly impossible to set on the old plastic float. If you need a new one get the xr adjustable floats.
Part number 16013-405-004
The china carb one should work but setting it to the level will require a gauge.

Simple test to check for air leaks on carb and manifold.
With the airbox on and hooked up.
Start the bike.
Take carb cleaner or starting fluid and spray a little on the manifold.
If the rpms go up you have a leak.

Cam chains can be had for 20$ on ebay. You will need a puller to get the flywheel off.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-XR-200-XL-CB-125-ATC-SX-185-S-Big-Red-Flywheel-Puller-14mm-x-1-5mm-USA-/370814775589?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5656487125&vxp=mtr

barnett468

05-18-2013, 05:58 AM

Hello tvpierce

Ok so you confirmed no advance on the CDI, and you also confirmed your mechanical advance is working... Awesome, so it sounds like no timing or spark issues

Did you ever determine what your initial and full advance timing actually is?

XXXXX

Place a cinder block under the left wheel.
Do the timing check.
If you still have bad oil spray add some lumber till it has leaned far enough over to not spray you.

May need to add one to the front tire as well.

Your idle may go up as it runs in this position and the gas in the carb gets used.
You will have to put it level to get the fuel level up then shut it off, jack it up, start and check.
If gas starts poring out of the carb then you have too high a level or a bad float on the right.

QUOTE=tvpierce;1225737]That should help. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Did you use my1423’s cinder block/lumber suggestion to check it? I didn’t suggest this method because I didn’t consider it safe to recommend.

FROM POST 99

I didn't measure the RPM down that low, but yes, it idles flawlessly way down to a lumbering idle -- leisurely chugging along.

In my experience your description suggests to me that you do not have an air leak and it unequivocally eliminates your cam timing as being the cause of your restricted rpm or any burble/stuttering etc. A retarded cam will rev more than an advanced one until such time that it is advanced or retarded enough to noticeably affect performance which in your case it is not otherwise it would not idle down as low as it sounds like it does. However I would put a new chain and replace guides on it as necessary if it was mine.

Simple test to check for air leaks on carb and manifold.
With the airbox on and hooked up.
Start the bike.
Take carb cleaner or starting fluid and spray a little on the manifold.
If the rpms go up you have a leak.

If I remember correctly this has already been suggested in one of the 115 previous posts however if you haven’t already done this or choose to do this again I suggest you use FLAMMABLE brake or carb cleaner. Most the brake/carb cleaners I see where I live are now water based due to EPA regulations. Since I personally have not ever gotten a water based brake or carb cleaner to burn I avoid using them for tests where a flammable liquid is required. I have also seen many people that are unaware that the brake or carb cleaner they are using to check for air leaks is water based and therefore they did not find a leak that they actually had until much later.

I also use the small long narrow nozzle it comes with. The nozzle focuses the spray which helps to more specifically locate where a possible leak may be coming from. When used by depressing the nozzle just part way It also reduces the amount of flammable liquid that might splatter around thereby reducing any dangers that might be encountered by using it such as possible splattering of fluid back into the eyes or on hot engine parts and reducing the amount of possible carcinogenic fumes you might inhale.

tvpierce

05-20-2013, 08:13 AM

Hi all.

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this -- been busy giving the lawnmower, tractor, boat & weedwacker their spring service. (Geez, I need another internal combustion engine like I need a hole in the head!)

Thanks for the info re: the timing chain and stretch. It's just something I recalled from when I had it apart... good to know that it's not problematic as it is.

I haven't checked the initial timing yet with one wheel propped up. I've run into a problem that I'm reluctant to post here because I don't want to get us off the topic of the the stumble/bog issue. Here's the new problem though: the transmission will not downshift past 3rd gear -- so I can't run it in neutral. The kids have been riding it around in the field in 4th gear/low range, and that's worked OK. I'll start the new thread about the transmission problem.

Running around in the field did produce some interesting results though: I can "tune out" some of the stumble by working the choke with my left hand while riding. The choke won't completely correct the problem by any means, but it will improve it some. That certainly does seem to point toward a lean condition: either and too much air (leak) or not enough fuel.

Fuel level in the carb bowl is 1/4" below the bowl/carb seam. Honda doesn't give a spec for measuring with this method (or at least I didn't see one), but Barnett, you indicated it should be 1/8". That's a significant difference -- the spec Kawasaki gives for a street bike I used to own is "at the seam, plus or minus one mm". So being off by a full 1/8" is huge, right? There is no metal tine on the float -- it's 100% plastic. I don't think I could safely bend 30 year old plastic. Thoughts?
The original float needle allowed for a higher float level (the static measurement was noticeably different between the original and the new one in the rebuild kit). Maybe I should try the old float needle?

barnett468

05-20-2013, 08:56 AM

Hello tvpierce

Yes a low float level can easily caUse a lean or rich condition and float levels should be correct before any jetting is done otherwise if you can even jet it then correct your float level you may have to jet again. Others don't do it this way.

I'll reply in more detail in an hour or so but for now, yes put the OLD needle in turn carb upside doen if you wantto and blow air thru fuel line to see if it is leaking, install on bike ride it first make some notes then check gas level and let us know if it is better or worse.

Yes you can bend the plastic float tang but it's complicated. I think someone makes an adjustable height needle and seat for yours someone else here just bought a kit with one. I'll check it out if no one tells you more about it.

If it is determined your level is too low with the new needle and too high [unlikely but possible] with the old one you can simply install an additional [fiber] washer under the seat to adjust it if it uses one.

barnett468

05-20-2013, 08:59 AM

I meant to say an inaccurate float level can cause either a rich or lean condition. Low float level = leaner, high float level = richer.

I don't have an edit button.

barnett468

05-20-2013, 10:39 AM

Hello tvpierce

You keep using the word “stumble” I think I tried to explain the terminology that I at least understand in an earlier post but either way here goes.

I equate the word stumble to burble, sputter and intermittent miss etc. In other words, when accelerating, the engine might run like someone suddenly sprayed water in it, or too much gas suddenly got in it. It sputters, burbles, stumbles or misses etc until it hopefully finally clears out and continues to build rpm. This is typically caused by rich jetting, electrical miss, water in gas and occasionally a weak plug wire breaking down under load [more of an automotive problem]etc.

Is this what yours does? If so then you have a very mysterious problem if applying the choke reduces the problem and makes it run better.

One of the ways I explain a “lean” condition is that under acceleration the bike does NOT sputter, burble, stumble or feel like it has a miss, it simply does not “go” or accelerate. I also refer to this condition as a “bog” or “bogging”.

Is this what it does?

Thanks

kb0nly

05-20-2013, 11:10 AM

tvpierce

05-20-2013, 11:34 AM

Barnett,

You're correct: as you helped me determine earlier, it's a bog or miss.

tvpierce

05-20-2013, 11:39 AM

I would figure out why you can't downshift to neutral before i worry about the carb anymore, that could be far more serious. If your lucky its a problem with the shift stopper or the return spring, but i wouldn't ride it around stuck in fourth gear until you fix it, you could end up hurting something else, and using low gear puts a lot of strain on the sub trans, its fine for average use, but i wouldnt ride around on it all day in low gear.. LOL

I guess I'll have to dig into it and see what's going on in the tranny then. The kids are just running around a little in the grassy field next door, so no heavy use... but it's good for me psychologically to see the kids enjoying it. :-)

barnett468

05-20-2013, 01:28 PM

Barnett,

You're correct: as helped me determine earlier, it's a bog or miss.

Hello tcpierce

Please re-read my post #123 again carefully, it will be helpful. To me a "bog" does NOT have a miss, stutter, stumble, burble etc, it simply has absolutely NO symptom other than the rpm fail to increase and the engine might sound like a big vacuum cleaner when it's under load with the throttle wide open. I personally do not use those 2 words in the same sentence when describing any performance related issue, others do, so it can become a little complicated at times.

Just please be aware that not only can riding it stuck in gear potentially do further damage to the trans as Kbonly mentioned but it can be hard on the clutches and other parts as well etc.

Kbonly

Sorry that I did not suggest for him NOT to ride it. I got involved and forgot he had a trans problem which I can't help him with much if it's a sub trans anyway.

tvpierce

05-20-2013, 01:54 PM

Hello tcpierce
Please re-read my post #123 again carefully, it will be helpful. To me a "bog" does NOT have a miss, stutter, stumble, burble etc, it simply has absolutely NO symptom other than the rpm fail to increase and the engine might sound like a big vacuum cleaner when it's under load with the throttle wide open. I personally do not use those 2 words in the same sentence when describing any performance related issue, others do, so it can become a little complicated at times.

Sorry, I misread your description. I would call it a bog: no stumble, just a failure of RPM to increase. If it's not raining tonight when I get home, I'll see if I can make of video of it and post on Photobucket or Youtube.

Thanks.

barnett468

05-20-2013, 02:20 PM

Sorry, I misread your description. I would call it a bog: no stumble, just a failure of RPM to increase. If it's not raining tonight when I get home, I'll see if I can make of video of it and post on Photobucket or Youtube.

Thanks.

Hello tvpierce

Ok, cool no problem, as you see, lots of minutia’s, lol. and this can be haaaaaaaard stuff to do from both sides. Kbonly by himself has spent hours on this. As long as you have money to buy new parts with we'll get it, lol.

Look forward to the video they are occasionally EXTREMELY helpful.

Please don’t forget the vacuum leak test. It is not always definitive though unfortunately but it typically finds a leak in my experience.

barnett468

05-20-2013, 02:24 PM

I know nothing about photobucket. All I know is youtube and like that because it blows up to a full screen but obviously just do what's best for you. I personally don't need to "see" the sound, lol.

kb0nly

05-20-2013, 02:37 PM

Oh i agree its nice seeing them use it!! :-)

Try this, with it running, standing next to it, try rocking it backwards and forwards while jerking up on the shifter, see if that combination of movement will let you click it up into lower gears, if so then its shift stopper/spring issue.

Its possible to have a bent shift fork or something worst in the motor but lets hope its external, basically that you can fix it on the right side rather than having to split the cases, cause that really really really sucks!!! LOL

Oh and if you end up pulling the right cover off clean the centrifugal oil filter as well, its all in the manual. You will need a couple gaskets to get in and out of that side but its not too terrible. Also check your clutch adjustment too before taking it apart, a poorly adjusted clutch will hold it in gear on these auto's because it never fully disengages when the engine RPM drops. I have seen that personally on a few of them that someone mis-adjusted.

tvpierce

05-20-2013, 05:05 PM

Try this, with it running, standing next to it, try rocking it backwards and forwards while jerking up on the shifter, see if that combination of movement will let you click it up into lower gears, if so then its shift stopper/spring issue.

No go on that. I've had to rock it since I got -- like all Hondas, it's was always a clunky shifter... but this one was a little worse.

Oh and if you end up pulling the right cover off clean the centrifugal oil filter as well, its all in the manual. You will need a couple gaskets to get in and out of that side but its not too terrible.

Will do.

Also check your clutch adjustment too before taking it apart, a poorly adjusted clutch will hold it in gear on these auto's because it never fully disengages when the engine RPM drops. I have seen that personally on a few of them that someone mis-adjusted.
Adjusting the clutch helped when I first got the trike, but since the downshift issue arrose, it hasn't made a difference. Will double check though to be certain.

Thanks.

kb0nly

05-20-2013, 06:29 PM

Ok, what are you running for oil? 10w-40 is the recommended, most will say run ATV oil, i have run that or just a good grade of automotive 10w-40, but the viscosity is the important bit. If you got ATV oil at the local store dump and refill with that, it does help older clutches a bit.

The fact that the clutch adjustment doesn't help though makes me think you either have a shift stop problem or its the clutches themselves. Either way, your going to have to tear into the right side.

Another thing to try.. With it running and in gear, be it stuck in fourth or whatever gear it is... Can you easily push it around as if its still in neutral or is it really hard to push or feel like its dragging? If thats the case then the clutch isn't disengaging. How fast is your idle? If its idling too high it could be slipping the clutch, its totally centrifugal like a snowmobile, more throttle more grab.

tvpierce

05-20-2013, 08:40 PM

OK, shot a video tonight, and I'm uploading it now to YouTube. It's going to take 90 minutes to upload -- sorry, shot it with my DSLR on HD setting, and it's almost 1 gig! When it's uploaded, it will be here: http://youtu.be/rtiVl7VrF-Y

Oil: running Shell Rotella T 15w-40 non-synthetic. It's spec-ed for diesel engines, but it's widely considered a fantastic motorcycle oil because of its high zinc content and lack of friction modifiers -- which makes it great for wet-clutch applications.

With the engine running and in gear, I can push it around almost as easy as if it were in neutral -- very slight resistance though.

With the engine off and in gear, I can push it backwards easily, but forwards it's completely locked.

With the engine off, I can disengage the clutch by lifting on the shift lever... then I can push it in and out of the garage.

With the engine off, if I rock and wiggle it enough, I can get it to act like it's in neutral so I can push it in and out of the garage, but I'm pretty sure it's just stuck between gears.

I have the idle set extremely low -- you'll see in the video. I could set it higher, but wanted to see how low it will go -- the engine runs very well at idle.

Checked again for vacuum leaks. Barnett, I know you suggested flammable carb cleaner, but I don't have any. So I first probed with propane, that usually works well as a flammable leak detector. Then tried again with WD-40, which in my experience works not because it burns well, but because it (or any fluid) will temporarily obstruct the leak for a few seconds, so will lower the idle then rise again as it returns to the lean condition.
It's also been my experience that vacuum leaks are more pronounced at idle -- causing a high idle condition, then become almost unnoticeable at higher throttle openings? Which further makes me think it's not a vac leak. Have you guys had the same experience or not?

Hopefully the video will be up soon. I'm eager to hear all your thoughts.

As always, thanks all of you for hanging with me on this -- your help is very much appreciated.

kb0nly

05-20-2013, 10:44 PM

Ok, from your excellent description its your shift stopper i would almost bet on it. Lifting it to get it into a false neutral so you can roll it, and being able to roll only backwards when off is the key there, its either in or between gears and not disengaging correctly.

There is a little spring loaded arm with a roller on the end of it, look at page 84 of the PDF manual on my server, its the small arm with the bolt and spring next to the star shaped wheel at the top of that parts layout. Page 104 shows the stopper plate and stopper arm. Best i can suggest is to drain the oil, lay it over on its left side and then pull that right cover off, watching out for the clutch adjuster and associated parts as they are the only stuff that will move around on that side. Must be a broken or damaged shift stopper.

barnett468

05-21-2013, 03:46 AM

Hello tvpierce

Barnett, I know you suggested flammable carb cleaner, but I don't have any.

How do you expect to set anything on fire that way, lol. I personally don’t think that even if you had an air leak it would not cause the problems you have.

Just wanted to quickly say I looked at the video, good job. I’ll listen again a few times. If I forget about all the previous posts I would say it sounds like the cam timing is retarded and it may have an electrical miss. I know the choke affects it a little and might appear to be lean to some but I don’t think that’s your biggest problem. I know you have already checked some of the following but I would do it again if it was me. It sounds like it may have a major ex leak which can cause problems and it sounds like it rattles a bit intermittently maybe timing chain slap but it’s hard for me to hear due to the audio. Also sounds like it may be popping slightly out ex valve, hard to tell.

It obviously has an initial “bog” off idle until rpms reach mid then it has a definite miss that sounds electrical to me. Out of the hundreds of bikes and cars I have worked on I have never had a lean condition cause a severe “miss” like that, but there’s always a first time.

Listen for ex leak at head pipe, you can use a 2’ long piece of vacuum line as a stethoscope if need be. Stick one end CLOSE to your ear NOT in it and stick the other end between the ex flange and head. Move hose slowly, if it has a big leak it will be VERY loud in your ear. You can use this around intake boot to find air leaks sometimes too.

Hook up a timing lite in the dark and rev it up and see if the lite “misses” or “falters” when it gets to mid throttle. If it does you at least have an electrical problem for sure. Might be able to see better if the lite “misses” if you point it at the white marks you put on your advance. If it misses I don’t think the miss is caused by carburetion so I might find the cause of that before jetting, hard to say.

Install the 3rd new CDI you have.

Maybe as a last resort get another flywheel. I agree it sounds nuts but if I remember correctly both you and KB and another member ALL have source coils that ohm nearly identical. You yourself have your orig and a new $19.95 [shipping not included] TAIWANESE one and both yours read the same ohms and voltage which is 40% less volts then kb's and the other guys. Unless KB or another electrical expert tell's me differently, any coils, big small etc., that have an equal amount of a resistance [ohms] will produce basically the exact amount of voltage when the same flywheel is spun around them at the same RPM. You say your spark is still weak so who knows, maybe the magnetism gremlins came and stole some of yours.

I would check cam timing again. Can you post a photo of cam gear when T is in window on flywheel?

Check valve clearance again

Make sure plug has no carbon [black].

Try old needle/seat to raise float level as we talked about.

See if it will idle lower than that and see if idle mix screw has any effect. That is not a low idle to me.

I personally would determine the timing at idle at the very least by using the F in the window and marking advancer/housing method I suggested but advance at full rpm won’t hurt but. I know I keep asking about this and even I don’t think it’s a problem but at this point I think it’s time to check everything.

If you want to you can also possibly put a white mark on the cam gear and watch it with the lit to see if it moves at high rpm. If it does then your chain is loose due to adjuster probably but this should not cause much of a problem so I think it’s low on the list of priorities.

If it still runs bad I would remove carb and ex, put T in window with piston at tdc then spray carb cleaner [not brake cleaner] or your handy WD40 into ports until there is a little “pool”. If it disappears quickly you have a big valve leak.

FYI – You do NOT get a second set of free steak knives if you reach 200 posts, only one set per contest winner, lol.

my1423

05-21-2013, 04:36 AM

Just watched your vid.
Yuck!!!!
Got enough timing chain slack in there! Noisy cha chink sound is slack!
I think you need to put a new chain in it and while at that pull the cam and make sure there are lobes on it!
Bet you got a flat lobe.
When you do the chain you have to pull the stator cover and flywheel.
Inspect the bits in there and post pics.

You can pull the cam fairly easy.
Pull the advancer like you did for the pics of the gear.
Remove the 2 cam gear bolts.
Wiggle the sprocket off.
Put the chain behind the sprocket and put wire though the chain.
Pull the cam and gear.

Look in and check the rockers.

kb0nly

05-21-2013, 10:42 AM

Just watched the video here myself, definitely needs a new timing chain by the rattle. Do it now before it jumps the chain and you get a nice case of piston meets valve... LOL

I haven't heard a quiet 200 valvetrain yet, they all clickety clack to some extent, but that one definitely needs some work. At a minimum it needs a chain and tensioner, then check the cam and valve adjustment again.

tvpierce

05-21-2013, 09:52 PM

Man, compared to my Honda CX500 and my former Kawasaki Concours, this engine is whisper-quiet. I thought the valve chain and valves were perfectly fine.

Thanks for the info.

I'll get the parts on order.

kb0nly

05-21-2013, 11:48 PM

Its normal for them to have some noise, but when you rev it you can hear the chain slap. The only worry is it jumping teeth, and then your out of time, if its spinning fast when the chain jumps it will have enough momentum even if it dies to come around and smack the valves, seen it...

I think once you do the timing chain you will set, it will also clean up the slight timing issue you pictured as well and get the cam back into spec. Oh, don't buy the spendy flywheel puller for the 200 motors, all it is, and all you need, is a large metric bolt to pop the flywheel off. I forget the size i will have to grab mine tomorrow or search on here. I have a couple of them in the tool bin.

tvpierce

05-22-2013, 01:23 PM

Does the head have to come off to replace the guides?

kb0nly

05-22-2013, 02:03 PM

Yep... The front guide is keyed into a recess on the top of the cylinder and its pinched in place with the head. Look at the diagram in the manual you will see what i mean, it has a molded in pin that sits in a groove. You have to pull the head to replace the tensioner guide anyway, i have had people tell me they were able to twist and turn and wiggle it down into place but it isn't easy. Your better off just pulling the head, replacing the chain, tensioner and guide set, new head gasket, and slap it back together. The rocker cover doesn't have a gasket, needs sealant. I use high temp RTV but sparingly applied, when you get to that point i can post a picture to illustrate that. Haven't had a problem yet doing them this way, some say only use hondabond sealant, if you can source it locally then its good, but its not much different than a quality high temp silicone. I usually use the gold but the orange rtv is fine at these temps also.

Don't forget the exhaust gasket, its a copper donut that goes into the head, the old one will be squished in there and you will have to pick it out. Also make sure you replace that o-ring on the front of the intake.

Now here is the worst news... You will HAVE to pull the motor from the frame to do this. There is not enough room to pull the head it will hit the down tube of the frame, been there done that, like four times now on the ES. The best i can say, its a PITA... LOL

The worst part is getting it back in, the driveshaft lineup and getting it back into place is the worst because the motor won't drop down into place. The best way i found when reinstalling the motor is to get it in, line up the driveshaft and once its started roll the whole thing front to back while pushing back on the motor, eventually it will pop into place. You have to fight against the spring on the driveshaft, its a tough spring and it takes a lot of force to push it back.

As for pulling it, i can pull one in like twenty mins top. Disconnect the fuel line from the carb, remove the tank and seat, disconnect the positive cable from the battery for safety, unbolt the intake at the head, you leave the intake and carb hanging from the airbox, unbolt the exhaust, if you have stock exhaust you have to also loosen the clamp that holds the muffler onto the header pipe and then remove the header pipe and leave the muffler, disconnect the wiring to the pickup coming out where the advancer is, disconnect all the wiring by the subtrans lever, it all just unplugs, disconnect the cable from the starter, remove the band clamps from the driveshaft boot, i just loosen them and slide them back onto the driveshaft tube then push back the boot as far as it will go, now you unbolt. I generally start with the hanger bolt up on the head, then the front mount bolts and plates, then the two bolts in the back top and bottom. After its all loose you just tip it to the left and slide it out to the left, it will come right out. Be ready, that sucker is heavy!! LOL

I have pulled them, replaced the top end, and put them back in within 3-4 hours, the 200ES by far is the worst though for reinstalling the motor because of the driveshaft. The chain drive 200's i could do in like a couple hours.. LOL