84 honda 200s cant get spark

[jawalth6]

I got a 200s to work on, there is no spark. I checked and fixed all wires. The stator is good. I have 2 pulse generators, both show 0 ohms. Cdi has the correct ohms that the manual showed except between ext and e1 and ext and s2 both show 10 ohms . I have two coils, one has the correct ohms. Still no spark. Are both pulse generators bad? Or is my cdi bad?

[Howdy]

You say the stator is good. What does it check ohm wise on the Black w/red striped wire?
Howdy

[jawalth6]

100 ohms. ( 100 X1, NOT 100 X1K)

[Howdy]

100 ohms. ( 100 X1, NOT 100 X1K)

When I work on one ( electrical ) I make sure it has 200-245 ohms. The lower the ohms the weaker the spark. You might find pull starting the machine with another it might run. But with that low of ohm reading I would be replacing the exciter coil ( part of the stator ).
Howdy

[tvpierce]

With the help of some members here, I'm working through some ignition issues on my 84 200es.

See the attached file someone sent me:

168978

According to it, the pulse coils should have a resistance of 20-30 ohms.

[jawalth6]

I put a different stator in. Now I get 205 ohms. Still no spark. Thanks. I got 29 ohms now from the pulse generator(put a different one on). Good thing I found lots of extra parts.

[nismortrd]

just for the heck of it did you make sure the pin is in its place behind the cdi were it locks into the cam. thats what happened to me today a buddy put it on and forgot the bolt at the end of the cam and the pin fell out lost spark.

[barnett468]

Hello


It sounds like a CDI to me so far, read the 3ww link below on where to buy a Chinese one for $5.00 and connect it to your system if you want to try a cheap way out. WARNING, buy a couple because you might get a faulty new one. I would buy a known good used one if possible.


1. You may need to have a volt/ohm meter that hopefully reads peaks [fluke digital etc] or have a friend that does.

2. Read the post below, it has a lot of info you might need including ohm and voltage readings from a properly working system.

3. Use the OEM Honda manual below to see specs and see how to test items.

4. Check all connections first.

5. Test stator source coil for voltage output by using pull cord [or starter if it has one]with spark plug removed. May need a volt/ohm meter that reads peaks to do this I’m not sure.

6. Post all results.


OEM HONDA MANUAL FROM KBONLY

http://www.kb0nly.info/ATC/index.php?dir=ATC200ES%2F


ATC 200 WEAK/NO SPARK LINK

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/157166-84-Honda-200ES-Poor-Running...-Ignition

[jawalth6]

I've never messed with anything behind the pulse generator before. I will check to make sure but I don't think thats the problem. That forum doesn't give links to where to buy 5$ Cdi boxes. the only ones i can find are 43$ new on ebay.

So does that little deference in the Cdi ohms make it bad?

[barnett468]

I've never messed with anything behind the pulse generator before. I will check to make sure but I don't think thats the problem. That forum doesn't give links to where to buy 5$ Cdi boxes. the only ones i can find are 43$ new on ebay.

So does that little deference in the Cdi ohms make it bad?



Hello


1. I can't find the $5.00 cdi link right now i'll look tomorrow if neither the keeper of the $5.00 cdi info or someone else doesn't give it to you by then.

2. What difference are you talking about exactly? Please be specific in EVERY post so we don't have to go back and try to find out what you were talking about in some previous post. If you are asking if 27 ohms is ok if the spec is 30 ohms my answer would be yes but others are better at this than i am.

[barnett468]

Oh, you were asking about the cdi. well all i have heard is that even though some test bad they still work so as far as i know and have seen they can not be successfully "bench" tested.

[jawalth6]

OK. I probably should buy a new Cdi then. Is there any reasons for both of the pulse coils to show 0 ohms? Or are they both bad?

[tvpierce]

Hello


1. I can't find the $5.00 cdi link right now i'll look tomorrow if neither the keeper of the $5.00 cdi info or someone else doesn't give it to you by then.


I just purchased two of these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321095193713?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


Check out this thread for a full explanation (including parts source for a square plug with crimp connectors to replace the round OEM round plug) from member KBonly:

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/156644-ATC200ES-CDI-Replacement-Sticky-Been-asked-a-lot-lately.?highlight=pin+cdi

[barnett468]

OK. I probably should buy a new Cdi then. Is there any reasons for both of the pulse coils to show 0 ohms? Or are they both bad?


Hello


I would at least do item #5 and #6 listed in post #8 using the manual link contained within that post to determine the factory specs. I would also test the ign coil before I did anything else then if all that checks good I would probably buy an original CDI that is either known or guaranteed to be good [if such a thing is possible], but that’s just what I would do, others would do things differently.

I see tvpierce has been kind enough to post the links necessary to locate and MODIFY your CDI harness to accept the $5.00 CDI but don’t get too excited yet, I posted the link to his original post so you can see read that first finding, then properly fixing your problem may not be as simple as you might think. His bike ran but ran poorly for reasons still undetermined. He tested lot’s of things in question here and even though they seemed to test good he replaced the ign coil with a new Chinese one, he replaced the CDI with a new Chinese one and as a last resort changed the source coil with a new Taiwanese one that he had to repair because he damaged it and after that his bike sparked once and then quit sparking. After 54 posts with someone very knowledgeable to help him his bike is worse off than when he started.

As I mentioned I don't know as much as some about the electrical systems on these but as far as your pulse coil question goes I personally don't know any other reason for them both to have 0 ohms unless they are bad but that just seems unlikely to me.

[Howdy]

I have very rarely seen a CDI on a 200s go bad. Have you disconnected the kill switch and checked for spark? I have seen dozens of kill switches go bad, but on the 200s's I have only ever seen 2 go bad. 1 of those was because of a engine fire. LOL
I wished you lived close to me. I would have you some spark within an hour.
Howdy

[jawalth6]

Yes I agree I am thinking I'd be better off spending a little more money then spending so much time.

yes, I disconnected the kill switch fist thing.

This is like to the 20,000th 'no spark three wheeler' I have fixed. Non had been close to this hard. I just don't understand. Most have been a bad wire, switch, or spark plug.

[kb0nly]

I have very rarely seen a CDI on a 200s go bad. Have you disconnected the kill switch and checked for spark? I have seen dozens of kill switches go bad, but on the 200s's I have only ever seen 2 go bad. 1 of those was because of a engine fire. LOL
I wished you lived close to me. I would have you some spark within an hour.
Howdy

Exact opposite here, i have replaced a half dozen CDI's on 185's and 200's in the last year alone. Even one on a 125M also.

[jawalth6]

Are pulse generators known to go bad?

[tvpierce]

Exact opposite here, i have replaced a half dozen CDI's on 185's and 200's in the last year alone. Even one on a 125M also.

My new cheap CDIs arrived in the mail today. I was just itchin' to see if I could get mine to work.

I went out immediately when I got home. Tested spark with the first/already installed cheap CDI: intermittent/weak spark with the plug removed, wouldn't start with the plug in. Installed the new/cheap CDI, and it fired up immediately and ran strong. It still idles high and has a mid-throttle stumble, but I believe those are in the carb... so I'll see if I can get those sorted. We'll see. Just pointing out that it CAN be in the CDI... but still, check everything.

[jawalth6]

Would this make it not have spark? The pics explain what I'm talking about. Is this the "pin" nismortrd was talking about?

[my1423]

Yes that will do it.
That triggers the spark.
With that pin gone the advancer can stick at the pulse coil position and stop turning.
No more spark.
Looks like you will need a new unit and pin.

[jawalth6]

What's that thing called?

[my1423]

I would get them used.
Camshaft pin part 16
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1984/ATC200S+A/CAMSHAFT+%2B+VALVE/parts.html

Advancer assembly. Discontinued part 3
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1984/ATC200S+A/CAMSHAFT+%2B+VALVE/parts.html

[jawalth6]

Thank you. I think I know a guy that has one. Once I get it I will give it a try and post the results.

[my1423]

I just blew up your picture.
Looks like your cam is also damaged.
I would replace it.
Might get by without but its a chance.
Any 185-200 cam will work.
xr or xl cam would be a nice upgrade.

I have only seen damage like this once.
Laid the bike down and a rock stopped the unit while it was running.

[jawalth6]

OK. I will see, but that's a lot of work. What all could it then if it came undone? Probably just the same thing. I will see when I put it on how lose it is and what I want to do.

[my1423]

Few options if the pin is loose.
Weld Tig the warped area and redrill the hole.
Weld the pin in and grind down the excess.
Epoxy the pin in place, After drying put rtv in the pin gap on the advancer to help keep the epoxy in place.

That damage did not happen from being loose.
A lot of torque had to be applied to break parts like that.

You might also want to check the cam chain.
Might be severely stretched!

[jawalth6]

Thank you. You are right. I will do something like that. I probably won't do the first option though because I don't think it would be easy to get a drill in there.

[jawalth6]

I got the new advancer put on. It still doesn't have spark. The advancer had been jamed but the magnet still spun. I think I have narrowed down to the cdi box. I think I'm going to buy a new one. Does anyone know if the small amount off that the ohms are on the Cdi box would make it ruined?

[my1423]

Probably cdi. Very common.
Lets check some other stuff to make sure.
You already ohmed the stator and pulse coil. Ok
Did you ohm the coil? Both primary and secondary?
Can take a 9volt battery and test to coil. Ground to frame. Positive to primary input.
When power is removed you should get a spark on the secondary or plug lead.

Lets see if the cdi has output. Unplug the coil.
Take your meter set to ac, better with an analog meter, and attach it to the primary input for the coil from the cdi. bl/y
Ground to frame, black meter lead, red positive, to bl/y.
Pull it. Any voltage? Should go up down for firing sequence.
No voltage, Lets check wiring harness to the cdi.

Remove the cdi and press the leads into the cdi harness plug, gently, do not damage them. Make sure you do make contact.
Set meter to ohms and check for open circut on green ground to black white bl/w. If its open then its not kill switch or wiring to it.
Next check ground from green wire to frame. Should be little or no resistance. Closed If high resistance, bad ground.

Lets check for output from the stator and pulse coil getting to the cdi. Green ground for all set meter to ac.
This will see if voltage is reaching the cdi.
Positive to blue yellow bl/y pulse lead pull it.
Next positive to black red bl/r stator pull it.
You can also ohm all those as well, just do not pull the rope for you may fry your meter when set to ohms.
If you resistances are way high or voltages way low, then you have bad wiring or connections between the plug and terminations.
If everything checks out and no output from cdi then the cdi is bad. You can also have output and still have a bad cdi if its weak.

[jawalth6]

I have cheaked like everything you said. The black/y wire going to the coil had 50vt when on the x50 setting. All the ohms on everything are good. I already ordered a new cdi. Hopefully it fixes it. I will post with results.

[jawalth6]

Got the new cdi box. Has good spark now! Got it running and drove it around. So I have concluded that the CDI being 10 ohms off can mean its broke. Thankyou to all of you who helped me.

[kb0nly]

I rarely test a CDI anymore, if i check the rest of the ignition system and still no spark i just swap the CDI and get it over with... LOL

Good to hear you got it running. Did the pin work out in your cam ok? Looked like in the picture the cam pin hole was a little stretched. If that ever gives you trouble again just know you can swap the cam without tearing the whole motor apart. Its not that hard, just remove tension from the timing chain, that info is in the service manual but basically loosed the tensioner nut after removing the bolt in the top of it and push a skinny screwdriver down through to back off the tensioner then tighten it to keep it set to loose, take the valve adjustment covers off and back off the rockers so they are loose, then unbolt the cam sprocket and slide the sprocket forward onto the skinny area of the cam, use a piece of string or wire to hold up the end of the chain, slide the sprocket out, and then just pull out the cam. Installation is the reverse, just have to adjust the valves and re-tension the timing chain. I have done a few this way to replace a bad cam sprocket if the chain was still good, just the sprocket was worn down. If you set the timing marks you can take it apart and put back together without even taking the left crankcase cover off. Replacing the chain however does require that.

That advancer took a hell of a hit!!! I just looked at the pic again, did you find the pieces that were broke off in there with the advancer? First time i have seen one shattered like that!

[jawalth6]

Yes the pin worked. It seamed to be tight. I know how to replace a cam I just was not thinking clearly. And yes, there was lots of little chunks of metal below the advancer.

[kb0nly]

Ahh good deal! Lucky those chunks didn't cause any damage inside especially the rubber oil seal. I haven't seen an advancer self destruct like that.. But anything is possible! LOL

[jawalth6]

It destroyed the seal, I got a new one. And yes I hadn't either till now.

[jaystersj]

Hey Guys,, I have a 84 200s,, Can't figure out how to post my own forum, but mine also has no spark,, Ive change the ignition coil, and the stator ( the black one) , My question is , Since it has to coils behind the pull start, which stator coil does what? Theres a black one, lower, and a sorta white one with more plates in it( Upper ),, Which stator does what? Well pull starting it, the head light comes on, I know one is for the Lights, but which one runs what? Thanks for your help, I'm a newbie here!!!! Cheers

[petedriver]

I have very rarely seen a CDI on a 200s go bad. Have you disconnected the kill switch and checked for spark? I have seen dozens of kill switches go bad, but on the 200s's I have only ever seen 2 go bad. 1 of those was because of a engine fire. LOL
I wished you lived close to me. I would have you some spark within an hour.
Howdy
I always start with the easiest thing first. Sometimes it saves a lot of money

[Howdy]

I always start with the easiest thing first. Sometimes it saves a lot of money
I use good meters and have lots of spare parts, my only cost to find the problem is my time.
Howdy

[kb0nly]

Hey Guys,, I have a 84 200s,, Can't figure out how to post my own forum, but mine also has no spark,, Ive change the ignition coil, and the stator ( the black one) , My question is , Since it has to coils behind the pull start, which stator coil does what? Theres a black one, lower, and a sorta white one with more plates in it( Upper ),, Which stator does what? Well pull starting it, the head light comes on, I know one is for the Lights, but which one runs what? Thanks for your help, I'm a newbie here!!!! Cheers

Not to hijack the thread... But i will answer this quickly...

The white one is the lighting/alternator and the black one which is smaller less plates should be the ignition. Look at the wiring, the black smaller one should have a Black/Red wire to it, thats the ignition source coil. The manual is available on my server, check link below in my signature.. To start your own thread just go back to the forums, then Trikesylvania and then click on Post New Thread in the large gray button at the top of the forum page.

[jawalth6]

Or if you are new and can't post there then go to - new member discussion and post it in that.

[kb0nly]

Or if you are new and can't post there then go to - new member discussion and post it in that.

Good catch... I didn't notice he was new by his post count!

[cody benz]

I have a 1984 honda 200s with no spark after I just got a new coil for the spark plug I dont know why it dosent have spark