1982 ATC 185s Rebuild - I need your opinions and expertise!

[nlauffer]

Ok. So if you have been reading my introduction post you will notice I have started to fix up my new purchase. One of the parts to this is doing something with the motor. I have read some about putting 200s cylinder and piston on it. Does this really make a big difference in performance?

I have found a website that I can send off my cylinder and head for machine work and they send it back with all parts needed. How much can the 185s be bored? Can it be bored to a 200s? I don't remember the bore for the two right now.

I'm thinking about just running a compression test and see what I get. That will tell me a lot. What else should I check? ie valve clearance to find out about head

I hope rings and gaskets are all that is needed, but I am ok with rebuild.

What about clutch? I've never messed with one like this. I'm finding all kinds of parts to buy, but am I wasting money.

[trikerman]

The 185 has a bore width of 63 mm, the 200 has a bore width of 65mm. I THINK you could bore it out to 65mm, and buy a std 200 piston, or you could bu a 2mm oversized 185cc piston, Wiseco makes a 2mm oversize. Its not really worth it though. Your performance gain would be little, and more trouble than its worth. If you have low compression, I would take it to an engine machine shop, have them mic it, and they will tell you the bore size, and how much it needs to be bored bigger, (1 over, 2 over, etc.) then have them bore and hone it, get an oversized piston and rings matching the overbore, new gaskets and you should have a good running trike for pretty cheap.

[kb0nly]

By website i assume your referring to G&H Discount ATV as i know they are one of the biggest that do this.

Your not going to gain a whole in my opinion by punching it out to the same bore as a 200, but its possible and i have seen it done. I would just have them clean it up and bore it for an oversize piston and leave it at that.

[nlauffer]

That's the website. I don't think I will worry too much about actual size bored. I'm pretty sure just a nice freshening up will make a big difference. I haven't ran a compression test, yet. I'm still working on bearing and sprockets.

[barnett468]

Hello



Check at least valve guide clearance, cam lobe height and ramps forr grooves, rocker arms for grooves. get new valve guide seals.


PISTON/RING REPLACEMENT – You must measure the cylinder for taper and “out of round”. They can look fine but be out of spec. It should be less than .015 taper and out of round or rings will not properly seal and it will have low compression and burn oil. The cylinder should be honed and new rings installed or the will not seal properly and it will have low compression and burn oil.



Keep it clean and on topic!!Howdy

[nlauffer]

Why didn't anyone stop me?!?

[nlauffer]

The motor is on the bench. The rear axle is disassembled and waiting on parts. Should be here no later than the 18th.

I also started painting the frame and prepping all the small parts for paint. I'm thinking about buying a small parts washer but might just soak.

[nlauffer]

I got my rear bearings, front & rear shoes, front & rear sprocket, and chain. I ordered rear seals (I forgot), front bearings & seals, brake shoe springs, misc orings and dust seals, and brake cables.

I ordered a 12 tooth front sprocket by mistake. What's that gonna do?

Also, my rear brake drum is a rusty mess. It's complete rust. What is a good way to clean it up? It's bad enough I'm thinking about sandblasting it. If I can't get it clean, are replacements available? I haven't found any yet.

[kb0nly]

Eh it happens, one thing leads to another and its a snowball effect case of "you might as well".... LOL

It will be nice when your done so don't worry and press on! I know how it goes, i adopted a ATC90 and i have spent three days now just working on the rear fenders while waiting for parts to even start on the motor!

The sprocket difference will change your gear ratio some, not a huge difference though, the stocker is an 11 tooth, so you only went a smidge larger. You will gain a bit more top end speed but not like a huge difference in my opinion after having played around with the ratios on these trikes. You need to make a drastic change, making the front bigger and the rear smaller for more speed, a bigger sprocket in the front and a smaller one in the back will give you more top speed with less engine rpm, a smaller sprocket in the front and a bigger one in the back will give you less top speed but higher engine rpm.

For your rear drum if you have someone locally that can do a bead blast on it go for it. I had one that was bad on a 200, i had a local place bead blast it then i took it to a local auto shop that still has the machines to turn down brake drums and rotors, believe it or not this is a dying service as most just replace the drums and rotors with a brake job rather then turn them down like they did in the old days, they turned it down just a bit to give a good braking surface and it worked great!

I don't believe anyone is making a replacement for them, at least not that i can find either.

[Amazon3d]

For rust in the tank I used Cider Vinegar, ate the rust out very well, just be sure to rinse with baking soda water then gas.
I did have to do some patch work on the tank but it was already in rough shape.

If you can't find a place to bead blast and turn the brake you might want to try this.

Simply soak it 4-8hrs shake it around, wire brush lightly and soak overnight, when you are ready to remove make sure you have a high temp paint ready, dry it and clean off rust residue, then paint.
This process worked great for me on several parts (though I didn't need high temp for the parts I was doing).

[barnett468]

Hello nlauffer




I ordered a 12 tooth front sprocket by mistake. What's that gonna do?


It depends what size your front one was. If the 12 is smaller, it will do the following items listed below, if the 12 is larger it will do the opposite of the items listed below.


Reduce max speed and

“Shorten” the gears. In other words, you will be shifting at lower speeds in each gear then you were before.

Pull things easier

Climb hills easier.

Have more engine breaking

Slow more quickly when closing the throttle completely while moving.

Accelerate to max speed more quickly.

[barnett468]

Post correction


The word “breaking” should be “braking”

I have no edit button, lol.



Keep it clean and on topic!!
Howdy

[nlauffer]

Amazon3d - I used white vinegar on my tank and some small parts and it worked awesome. My tank was already clean for the most part, but the little piece just outside the rear sprocket was nasty. It took it down to almost bare metal. I was thinking about soaking the drum in vinegar first just to see if it will work. At less than $1 for vinegar its worth a shot. Is the baking soda water just to neutralize the vinegar?

kb0nly - You think it won't make a noticeable difference?!? I'll just use it then. I used to work at a Napa and was the only one that would turn drums and rotors. I'm not sure if this little drum would fit on the machine I used to use, though. A buddy of mine and one of my firefighters has a shop and he uses an "on the vehicle" type machine. If vinegar doesn't do it, I'll try him.

barnett468 - Stock sprocket was an 11 tooth and I have a 12 tooth. All the things you mentioned about going smaller are what I would want on this wheeler. I think. I haven't had a chance to ride it, except around the yard in first and finally second, once I got a shifter. Most of my riding will putting around my in- laws farm. If one tooth won't be noticeable I'll just keep it. I have been looking at some pull behind equipment, though. This is my first 3 wheeler or ATV of any for that matter, so I don't know if it is capable of being much of a workhorse.

[Amazon3d]

Amazon3d - I used white vinegar on my tank and some small parts and it worked awesome. My tank was already clean for the most part, but the little piece just outside the rear sprocket was nasty. It took it down to almost bare metal. I was thinking about soaking the drum in vinegar first just to see if it will work. At less than $1 for vinegar its worth a shot. Is the baking soda water just to neutralize the vinegar?

Cider Vinegar works much better, I tried both. The baking soda is to neutralize the Vinegar yes, gas is to clean both out.

[nlauffer]

I wasn't able to upload these from my phone, so here goes another try from my computer.

One is the other parts I bought and the other shows the frame starting to be painted. I still haven't decided if I want to take the front forks off. I don't think I will. I'll just tape everything to keep overspray off.

Is there another option for steering stem bearings. I saw some regular roller type bearings listed online somewhere, but am not sure where now. I figure, if they were available, someone would have done it already. Just seems like a huge pain to take apart and put back together having to worry about 40 some little ball bearings.

[kb0nly]

I don't think most people would notice the slight difference of a one tooth larger front sprocket. The 200's are good workhorses, you would be surprised how much it could do.

For the steering stem bearings there is an All Balls roller bearing kit for them. Its a good replacement, but does take some work. It requires removing the old bearing cup races from the downtube and the steering stem on the forks. Then new races in the kit go into the downtube and it comes with a new seal and roller bearing you put down onto the stem and then drop in the top bearing and tighten it all down. Its not exactly easy, but not impossible. The hardest part is removing the darn lower bearing cup thats pressed down onto the steering stem. Most cut it carefully with a cutoff wheel or grinder, being careful not to nick the stem and then crack it with a chisel and pop it off in pieces.

[barnett468]

Hello


If you decide to stay with the ball bearing set up you have you can hold them in place with medium bodied grease, like bel ray or black wheel bearing grease. The old school dark brown super thick wheel bearing grease will work also but it’s a little more difficult to use imo because it is slightly too thick.

The most important thing is to make sure you have the right number of bearings in each race. It’s easy and common for 1 to be left out.

[Amazon3d]

I took mine apart and have a question, how many balls should there be in each?

[nlauffer]

There are 21 for the top and 21 for the bottom. Assuming it is a 185s

[nlauffer]

while this thing is torn apart and before I put it back together, I was wondering about front suspension. The 83 185s had suspension, but not my 82. What is the best way to upgrade to shock suspension on a 1982 ATC 185s? Maybe there are two questions here.

What is the BEST way to upgrade to shock suspension on a 1982 ATC 185s?

What is the reasonable way to upgrade to shock suspension on a 1982 ATC 185s?

I was thinking that just finding an 83 front fork and triple was probably the way to go, but can this setup be improved upon? Aftermarket rebuild for stock 83? Or is it better to find a front end off something else? I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the other Honda 3 wheelers out there. And by that I mean, what other models did Honda make.

[nlauffer]

My brake cables came in today. I got the rear axle housing torn apart last night, and started cleaning it. I damaged one of the bearing seats on the housing when I punched the bearing out. I am still working at it with 200 grit to knock down the rough spot.

I'm tempted to buy an 11 tooth front sprocket or even a 10 tooth and not use my 12 tooth. I just can't decide.

I had to buy a new set of calipers and I'll probably start engine tear down this week. Fire season is here, so I'll try to stay on top of this as best as I can.

[nlauffer]

Ok, so it has been awhile since I put anything on here. I don't have pictures to put up yet. I have all the parts painted and have started reassembly of the chassis. I have also torn down the motor. Good thing is that the piston is exactly in stock specs and so is the cylinder. All I need to do is replace the piston pin ring I bent while removing it. I will probably put a new set of rings on it while I'm there. I am amazed at how clean and unused this thing seems to be. Everything that I have measured is turning out to be within factory specs. The piston even says Honda on the bottom of it.

Should I run my cylinder stones inside it to give it some cross hatch?

I ordered a full gasket set and ordered some oil pump orings and gasket just in case. It is awesome that so much is available that is still Honda parts. The cylinder head has some black crust on the valves. I will just clean it up a little and maybe lap the valves.

Is it worth it to lap the valves on one of these motors?
When I reassemble the motor is there some tips on setting gaskets? Like using silicone in some places or using copper spray gasket on cylinder gaskets?

On the right side, I have not taken apart the clutch or centrifugal clutch yet. I want to get down to the oil pump and make sure every thing is fine. Although, as it has been the motor is perfect. It looks like it came off the factory floor just this year.

Should I do anything to the clutch springs or plates? Should I do anything to the centrifugal clutch friction pads? With these I was just thinking about solving any common problems while I have it apart, like slipping or weak springs. Any ideas?

Now away from the motor. I am looking for some parts for the chain adjustment. The chain adjuster on mine was broken. I have ordered a new one. The book lists a chain guide near the motor inside the chain case. It is not offered from Honda on the sight I have been ordering from. Can I get one anywhere?

Also, the rear brake drum lever has a spring on it. I can't find that one anywhere. I would like it to be a little stiffer for better return. What can I do about that one?

Oh yeah, what does the spacer inside the rear carrier do? It just looks like a piece of pipe. Just curious.
I will get some pictures tonight and post them in the next couple days.

[nlauffer]

So I found some of the chain guides on Ebay. they don't look like much. Are they needed?

[jb2wheels]

Why didn't anyone stop me?!?

Tell me about at. About a month ago, I had 2 piles of parts in my garage that used to be 3-wheelers. The Tecate is back on 3 but the 350X is still in parts and I tore it down first.

The best/right way to do a top end is have a shop do a full valve job, new valves, guides & seals. Also have a shop measure the bore and determine if it needs an overbore or just a hone and go from there.

I tend to do it the cheap way: dingleball hone, new rings, lap valves, new valve seals on the engines that have them.

Or even really cheap: scotchbrite "hone" (nikasil cylinders especially), new rings.

I love an 82 185s - I bought one new in 82. It ended up with full suspension using a weld on rear suspension kit and a forks/triple kit up front. Seems like you could buy the kits on every street corner in SoCal 30 years ago.

These days, I say the best way to suspend a 185s is buy a 200X.

The next best way is find a Nicholson frame and add a front suspension kit from somewhere.

I guess you could bolt on a later 185s or 200s front end.

Sounds like a great project.

[nlauffer]

I found an 81 ATC 200 for $100 will the recoil housing fit my 185. If it does I could sell the rest and make my money back.

[nlauffer]

Ok here are a couple more pictures. I now have all the wheels back on. Just waiting to adjust the cables and get my gaskets in the mail172397

[nlauffer]

Ok this doesn't work too well on my phone. I can only upload 1 photo at a time before it tells me error. I finish on the computer.

[jb2wheels]

I found an 81 ATC 200 for $100 will the recoil housing fit my 185. If it does I could sell the rest and make my money back.

Yes but you lose the automatic compression release function. The 82&later engines had a cable running from the pull start to the compression release. PRe-82 was a manual lever on the compression release.

As far as getting your $$ back? Probably - it all depends on condition. I threw out a lot of 81 (I think) 200 parts because shipping kills a lot of deals and local buyers are sometimes hard to come by. I did sell the seat, forks, front fender, plastic tank and pull start so I came out ahead. The rest went for scrap including frame, tires, wheels, engine. Plastics were crap.

[nlauffer]

Quick question. Can I see some pictures of mufflers or something you built as a muffler? If you look back to some of my pics you will see what I have. I just think I don't want to spend $140 on a complete system. My header pipe and shield is fine. I just need something to quiet the trike down, even if I have to build it.

[barnett468]

Hello nlauffer




Quick question. Can I see some pictures of mufflers or something you built as a muffler? If you look back to some of my pics you will see what I have. I just think I don't want to spend $140 on a complete system. My header pipe and shield is fine. I just need something to quiet the trike down, even if I have to build it.

If you just need any muffler to quiet it down and you are half way handy just do an internet search for one. See link below. If you ride on BLM land where a green sticker is required you must have an approved spark arrestor. The fine is huge1


http://www.google.com/search?q=atv+mufflers+silencers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[kb0nly]

I would definitely run a ball hone through the cylinder and toss in a new set of rings while you have it torn down, and lapping the valves is a quick and cheap process if you have everything to do it, again well worth the time and effort to do it now while you have it all torn down.

Can't put in new rings without giving it a hone for them to break in, so get er done!

As for exhaust, you can do just about anything. I have seen plenty of guys chop the muffler off leaving as much of the pipe as possible and then clamping/welding on a dirt bike muffler or whatever they could find, i have seen a bunch of them with a small tractor muffler on them, they sound pretty good actually!

[nlauffer]

OK still no pictures, but I have the motor mostly back together and in the trike.

As I was installing the camshaft and (what I call) valve cover, I ended up putting the camshaft in first and then bolting down the cover, and then slipping cam gear and chain on. Not quite what the manual calls for. I have put silicone on the valve cover and let it dry tacky. My problem is that I think it gets too tight when I get it all put together. What I mean is, the engine is a lot harder to turn over now and the compression release does not do anything. I think I am missing something. I have coated everything up top in white grease (can't remember the name right now, white tube with blue cap).

Also when I line up the "T" mark on crankshaft it wants to rotate a little past. IS that normal? I mean just about 1/4" past the notch

[nlauffer]

I forgot. I did not hone cylinder, just put it back together. Everything is measuring up to factory spec, according to the manual. I did however, lap the valves. I used all the same parts that were taken off. I took the head to a shop in town to borrow there spring compressor and the owner took them off for me. Just found out he used a hammer and socket. The valve stems seemed to go back in and move fine, though. I used a compressor to put it back together.