Calling all heating pros lol.

[atc007]

So,long story short. I have a very big home to heat because I am an idiot. 5236 sq ft total. Home was 2400 sq ft,I put it on a full 10inch rebarred and poured basement. Propane heat. I went to coal 2 years ago. In the basement. Propane came with the home,so it's upstairs. So,I have a big ol bull dozer,Case 850. And I was contemplating putting in geothermal. I know Triagain spoke of 6? inch pipe underground. Given my undersized furnace currently,both the coal and the propane. I don't really wanna start from scratch,but I 'm thinking in the long run I will obviously be better off. So,I like to go overkill whenever I build something. What would you guys recommend for a nice efficient long term set up.? I'm guessing I'll end up with propane over Geo :)

[Thorpe]

Is Natural Gas an option?

[atc007]

Lol,,someday fairly soon. It will be. Not now : ((

[jeswinehart]

Petition your local natural gas company to do a survey on folks that would be interested in getting hooked up.
Working for a propane supplier (and having natural gas at my house) I can about guarantee a 60-70 % savings per year. My nat gas budget payment is 75 dollars a month and the only things that I could put on gas that are not on nat gas already would be my lighting, refrigerator or a generator (Amish style :) )
I get a very good discount on my propane I do buy (garage tank usage 50 to 150 gallons a year), compact cylinder gas,,, I have the formula to equate nat gas rate to propane rate and my household bill would increase right about 55-58% if I was to buy propane from the company I work for ~ yep that IS a bunch.
Geothermal is also huge in my area as well as the outside wood fired hydronic heating systems (commonly called wood boilers)

john

[atc007]

There are actually 3 wells drilled under us. But the pad is not on us. And there is no pipeline anywhere. I am literally out in the middle of nowhere.. SO,I'm not sure what success I would have in getting pipeline in here.. I Really appreciate this John, I had no idea there was THAT much of a difference in Propane VS Natural gas! Heck, ,If I go geo with Natural on top. I might actually be able to heat my home sanely and cleanly someday ! I'm liking this! Thanx so far guys !

[jeswinehart]

Yep, some times it just ain't feasible to get nat gas piped to your location. You certainly would not want to pay them to run a main just for you, it would be insanely exspensive. If there happens to be a lake or collection of house down the road a ways that would give them incentive to run it by your place that would be ideal because you could hook up as they go by.
This most likely will be way more info then you wanted or need but gonna give to you or any one else who may need.
CCF X 100 X .632 divided by 36.38 = L.P. gallon
At our company we are currently summer filling our open accounts that are on our auto fill program @ 1.65 per gallon.
Last month I used 48.912 THM (formally called CCF) and that comes out to be 84.97 L.P. gallons.
Taking our summer fill price of 1.65 per gallon X 84.97 gallons = 140.20 plus .04% sales tax here in Michigan on heating fuels (5.61) = 145.81 (we do charge a 3 dollar delivery fee - did not factor that in)
My last months bill total was 46.90 so it would have cost me basically 100 dollars more last month to have propane at our house at the rate our summer fill price is.
(yeah I tend to carry a credit because I always send in 85 bucks)

172247

[atc007]

Unreal,,I had NO idea. As always John,,I can't thank you enough.

[MyMistress86R]

Do you have access to firewood? Cut it yourself or buy it? If so, check this site out...they offer dual fuel options. This is what I am putting in my newly acquired home. http://www.yukon-eagle.com/ Call them and talk about your situation and they will recommend a killer solution. Fantastic customer support even for those just investigating options.

[tri again]

Hey there 007.
I forget how we got on the topic but some old timer on the hill
was telling me his heating bill was always under 50$ a month
when average for this area is around 2-300.

Never got the full story but either a very long run of pipe underground
or vertical, as in a well, would always be around 52 degrees, like well water.
Sure doesn't sound 'warm' but if we're trying to heat 20 degree air to 70 degrees,
it's better to heat 52 degree air to start with.

There's actual hot water wells in Klamath Falls Oregon.
They run cold water pipes down into the hot wells and exchange heat off of that.

Makes me wonder how could we could get a jump start with a 52 degree
intake air source. Also a great starting point for cooling when it's 90+ degrees out.

The 'home show' at the fairgrounds had a few vendors promoting
geothermal.
Very expensive if they do it but I'm picturing, if you have a tractor or trencher
and could somehow run a few hundred feet of air intake pipe underground,
you'd be starting at 52 degrees with your intake air.

Very simple and no further expense.
My setup is concrete floor, heated by woodstove to roughly 75 degrees.
Basically a massive thermal storage mass.
It was carpeted but I ripped that out, painted the floor with latex gloss WHITE
floor paint. It dries so freakin fast and is amazingly durable, washable etc.

Also, one light will light the room because of the reflection off the floor.
I started with standard garage grey but realized that most concrete is white anyway
so it wasn't too far of a stretch.
If I had it to do from scratch, I'd put redundant pex tubing in the concrete
to run hot water through.
I guess there are ways to add hot water tubing on top of concrete too.

A good friend took one of my hairbrained suggestions and ran pex tubing from the hot water
source to the shower/tub but it ran across the bathroom floor first.
so...turn on the shower, which you wait a few minutes to warm up anyway,
and the bless'ed floor would be warm for when she got out.

Another thought at the home show was to wrap bathtub drainlines with cold water
intake lines to act as a preheater, extracting heat from the drain lines.
Seems kinda silly and inefficient but I guess all the little things add up.

For me and this old house (converted barn actually)
I can do whatever I want and it doesn't really matter since it's not a 'real' house.

Again, for me, it's trying to SAVE whatever heat I generate, either by heating the
huge thermal mass of the concrete floor and the water tanks that surround my woodstove.

At 30 degrees outside, my place will stay above 70 for about 36 hrs, with lots o' airleaks and cheap old windows, after the fire goes out.

Interesting stuff for sure, but hard to believe the folks who are trying to sell these 'systems'.

Another thought is to call the power company or whomever provides your heat. (gas/oil)
Some have GREAT incentives, rebates for upgraded appliances and
suggestions on how to save $.
Grant $ is also avail.
Sounds like they'd want to make More $ from us but
they get some serious incentives from various sources.
In Calif, I got a FREE coleman presidential gas furnace to replace my old international harvester, and a FREE refridgerator because they were more efficient.

Just programs they HAD $ for an no one took advantage of.
I felt a little slutty for doing so but the $ was there and PG&E asked ME if I wanted a new fridge.

Getting ready for another fest so not sure I'll have much time to look for you but will certainly try.

[roostin atc]

Hey there 007.
I forget how we got on the topic but some old timer on the hill
was telling me his heating bill was always under 50$ a month
when average for this area is around 2-300.

Never got the full story but either a very long run of pipe underground
or vertical, as in a well, would always be around 52 degrees, like well water.
Sure doesn't sound 'warm' but if we're trying to heat 20 degree air to 70 degrees,
it's better to heat 52 degree air to start with.

There's actual hot water wells in Klamath Falls Oregon.
They run cold water pipes down into the hot wells and exchange heat off of that.

Makes me wonder how could we could get a jump start with a 52 degree
intake air source. Also a great starting point for cooling when it's 90+ degrees out.

The 'home show' at the fairgrounds had a few vendors promoting
geothermal.
Very expensive if they do it but I'm picturing, if you have a tractor or trencher
and could somehow run a few hundred feet of air intake pipe underground,
you'd be starting at 52 degrees with your intake air.

Very simple and no further expense.
My setup is concrete floor, heated by woodstove to roughly 75 degrees.
Basically a massive thermal storage mass.
It was carpeted but I ripped that out, painted the floor with latex gloss WHITE
floor paint. It dries so freakin fast and is amazingly durable, washable etc.

Also, one light will light the room because of the reflection off the floor.
I started with standard garage grey but realized that most concrete is white anyway
so it wasn't too far of a stretch.
If I had it to do from scratch, I'd put redundant pex tubing in the concrete
to run hot water through.
I guess there are ways to add hot water tubing on top of concrete too.

A good friend took one of my hairbrained suggestions and ran pex tubing from the hot water
source to the shower/tub but it ran across the bathroom floor first.
so...turn on the shower, which you wait a few minutes to warm up anyway,
and the bless'ed floor would be warm for when she got out.

Another thought at the home show was to wrap bathtub drainlines with cold water
intake lines to act as a preheater, extracting heat from the drain lines.
Seems kinda silly and inefficient but I guess all the little things add up.

For me and this old house (converted barn actually)
I can do whatever I want and it doesn't really matter since it's not a 'real' house.

Again, for me, it's trying to SAVE whatever heat I generate, either by heating the
huge thermal mass of the concrete floor and the water tanks that surround my woodstove.

At 30 degrees outside, my place will stay above 70 for about 36 hrs, with lots o' airleaks and cheap old windows, after the fire goes out.

Interesting stuff for sure, but hard to believe the folks who are trying to sell these 'systems'.

Another thought is to call the power company or whomever provides your heat. (gas/oil)
Some have GREAT incentives, rebates for upgraded appliances and
suggestions on how to save $.
Grant $ is also avail.
Sounds like they'd want to make More $ from us but
they get some serious incentives from various sources.
In Calif, I got a FREE coleman presidential gas furnace to replace my old international harvester, and a FREE refridgerator because they were more efficient.

Just programs they HAD $ for an no one took advantage of.
I felt a little slutty for doing so but the $ was there and PG&E asked ME if I wanted a new fridge.

Getting ready for another fest so not sure I'll have much time to look for you but will certainly try.

All that is overkill. You have a huge house. Close part of it off in the winter. Depending on where your water pipes are you can keep half the house at 55 the other at 70. I'm a oilman by trade. But i burn wood, gas and oil is the most expensive in my area.

[tri again]

Yeah,
Save or store whatever heat with passive thermal mass
seems to work for me.

With all due thoughts to 'roostin'.
I also shut off the studio in the barn and reduce my
living space to waaay under 50% in the winter.

Sure is nice to have cubic tonnage of 'warm' concrete
under the whole house.

Very comforting.

I may not be on for a couple weeks
so youse guys take care, have fun, be careful
and call collect in any weak moment.

I'll post pix when it's over.

Kinda like Sturgis.
50,000 people inundate a town of 2500 for a week or so.
www.oregoncountryfair.com
if anyone has any morbid curiosity as to what freaks do in the pacific northwest.

Free admission for trikers and Saab owners.

[atc007]

You enjoy the fest my friend !

[Dirtcrasher]

Nice system I installed was a zoned VIESSMAN boiler (GERMAN - They know their chit!!) with coils in the air handlers. And PEX under the floors. All zoned off. That boiler was super efficient and quiet as a mouse; Uses PVC for the fresh air and exhaust. The doctor with empty pockets loved it.....

Ac is never a problem if the supplies and returns are placed properly. Screw .75 per sq. ft., I am a fan of 1cfm per 1 sq. ft. Be aware of "Eddie Spaghetti".!!

[fabiodriven]

I heat with wood. Labor intensive, yes. But it's also free. The chainsaw and splitter weren't, but I haven't even run my boiler in 2 years and I keep my uninsulated house at 75.

[atc007]

I hear ya man. Lol,, AND, I just timbered off 70 acres. More damn wood that I know what to do with.. But I just don;t want bothered with feeding it and the dust etc.. Lazy I know. I Love the cutting ,splitting,,by hand, and piling. HATE the feeding and dust. Actually,,it appears I'm gonna sell enough tops to heat for a cpl years. At any rate. I am now REALLY looking into solar. I have a great setup here for it. Just a,matter of configuring what I need.

[tri again]

I'm fascinated by those outdoor woodstoves plumbed inTO the house
from outside.
Not sure what they're called but they are , say, bigger than a refrigerator.
and a separate entity that sits outside the house.
Maybe hot air exchanger and / or hot water that then gets shuffled into the house
somehow.

Keeps all the dust and mold outside.
especially if you have tons of wood.

I think the fireboxes can handle all kinds of sizes
and knotty chunks that will last forever and not fun
for an inside stove.

I just built a woodfired sauna with the stove doors facing outside.
Keeps it clean inside and nice to sit in front of outside.
The light flickers on the trees hundreds of yards away too.

The perfect solution will come to you