84 200m, new rings, smokes badly

[CodyRosa]

Hey guys, I recently put new rings in. I honed/cross pattern the cylinder walls. I never changed the valve seals due to the fact it never smoked. I gapped the rings exactly how it shows in my manual, never messed with timing so thats all correct. She runs strong, pulls hard now.. When I first start it, it doesn't smoke, its once its warmed up it'll smoke.. pppppprettty bad to lol. When i was riding it, it barely smoked then I came to a stop and a huge cloud of smoke (white/blue) went past me.

These rings are ArmorTech.. One black, one shiny, and the oil rings.. i put oils on bottom, black in middle, and shiny up top.. only thing i can think i did wrong to get THIS much smoke is rings upside down? How can i tell how to put them in without instructions OR numbers/letters on the rings showing me what side is up.

[CodyRosa]

oh and also do the rings have to seat first and maybe thats why its smoking?? I'd hate to tear into it again.. but it sure is looking that way lol

[CodyRosa]

Well i think it fixed itself, it stopped smoking after I ran it hard up and down my driveway 5 times. I have a long driveway. It must have just been oil left over in the pipe.

[CodyRosa]

Ok I lied lol its smoking again..

[kb0nly]

The rings will take some time to break in, but my guess is you got a problem if its smoking that bad. Generally when i have put new rings in and started a fresh engine i let it idle for 15-20 mins before going any faster than idle, during that first run time it will intermittently smoke a little bit. Then i shut it off let it cool, double check the torque on the studs to make sure the gaskets are seating well that first heat cycle, then i start it up again and take it for an easy spin, varying throttle and speed, but no wide open throttle or heavy loading on the engine yet. Gotta break em in right.

If your getting that much smoke you might have to pull it back apart and see whats up! If you didn't replace the valve stem seals you should, but thats probably not the cause of the smoking your getting now.

[CodyRosa]

The smoke isn't as bad is it was at first, it's still bad but not a huge cloud anymore, when sitting on the machine i can just barely see it puffing out the back

[CodyRosa]

Could they be in upside down? There are absolutely NO markings indicating which way they go in

[yaegerb]

You either have the rings in upside down, gapped improperly or not offset correctly. Time to break it back down.

[CodyRosa]

Ok well there offset correctly so its either rings upside down or gapped wrong. Now how close are they suppose to be? I put the black ring in the cylinder and my biggest feeler gauge went in it without touching... so I think the gap is way to big. When i run out to the garage i can tell you what size the feeler gauge was that I used.

[barnett468]

First potential problem is that the rings are either chinese or taiwanese.

Second problem is that your bore is most likely worn out.

[ebaccm26]

You should double check to make sure you put the rings in right side up, some of them have VERY small markings and others will have no markings but do have a taper in one direction or the other. Also I've never even heard of Armor Tech, it is a good idea to stick with the well known manufacturers for any kind of engine part, at least in my opinion.

[CodyRosa]

I honestly didn't even look what kind it was when I bought it, Didn't pay attention so my bad there. These have no markings at all. Bore being worn out I suppose is a possibility on a 29 year old motor. I guess i'll have to pull it and check the rings to see what way they go in

[barnett468]

Isn't this the same engine you put rings in on a worn out piston less than 5 months ago?

[CodyRosa]

Nope, I've never bought rings for this machine. My pistons still good.

[barnett468]

Ok thanks for the info, might have to disassemble to check it as mentioned.

Can you do a compression test?

[barnett468]

My pistons still good.

You can only determine if piston is good if you measure it or put a new one in yourself recently. Looking good means nothing.

[my1423]

Probably rings, but another thing to check.
Still means taking it apart.
Did you put in a new head gasket and orings?
There is a rubbery oring that goes around one stud. It is thick and goes around a dowel.
It is the oil galley that feeds the head.
Do not know how many I have seen that people left it out and missing the dowel and ran puking oil all over.
Most outside but a few right into the chamber.
Also people who do not fully clean that area by leaving the dowel in place and not cleaning around it can get the leak as well.

[CodyRosa]

yup brand new gaskets on top ends, new o rings, new o ring on the dowel.. but an update on the smoking... I let it idle for 10-15min and NO SMOKE.. NONE .. NONE WHAT SO EVER. So I'm wondering if it has to do with moisture in the air from the rain before. I decided to ride the thing on the worst possible day after switching in new rings lol. My machine ALWAYS smoked badly from the moisture. I smelt the exhaust and it smells like normal exhaust, no oil burning. I checked plug, not sure if it should look different from the oil but it was normal looking, brown.

[CodyRosa]

So It does NOT smoke on idle, very very very faint, it smells like exhaust not oil to. I put it into 1st gear and drove up and down my driveway and it smoked, I could smell it to. Then I put into neutral and it'll stop smoking... =/

[kb0nly]

Smoking under load but not at idle is still rings/bore issues. I highly doubt you can get by with a hone and new rings on a 29 year old motor. Lets face it they last but not forever. Your best bet is to get this saga over and have it bored and honed and get an oversize piston and ring set. The Shindy brand is what i have in mine and a few others, good price and reliable, made in Japan not China.

No amount of honing and new rings will fix it with a egg shaped bore, which i bet yours is out of spec by now.

[yaegerb]

I guess I missed the part where you stated you only honed it. Well, that's a problem. Like KB said, your cylinder is out of round or more like an egg shape than a circle. I ALWAYS bore my cylinders, unless I know that it hasn't been over a couple years since my last ring change.

[CodyRosa]

yea i told my dad how you said i should bore.. and he just suggested getting it bored then high comp piston. Roughly how much is a bore?

[yaegerb]

at my local shop its 50 bucks. The easiest method to do this is to buy your piston and rings and take those in with you and have the shop bore the cylinder to the new piston and ring setup. That way you know the cylinder/piston/rings all match.

by the way, if you go 12:1 high compression piston you will be married to race gas. I wouldn't go any higher than 10.25:1

Here is one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Piston-Kit-65-50-mm-10-25-1-Honda-ATC200M-1984-1985-/330843908737?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d07d56a81&vxp=mtr#ht_1697wt_1006

[CodyRosa]

haha yup i thought about 12:1 until i saw it was for racing and heard you needed race gas. Thanks for that link! Now i have to try and sell my piston and rings on ebay lol .. wasted 45 bucks to find out it needs to be bored. At least now I know, im alway boring haha

[barnett468]

i have to try and sell my piston and rings on ebay lol.

You said your piston was not new and now your rings are used so I wouldn't expect more than $10.00 or so for them if that but who knows. Some people will buy anything. I wouldn't tell anyone the piston is good unless you measure it to determine if it is or not.




. wasted 45 bucks to find out it needs to be bored. At least now I know, im alway boring haha[/QUOTE]

[ebaccm26]

At least now I know, im alway boring haha

You don't seem that boring :lol:

Make sure you get it done sooner rather than later, you don't want to be risking further damage if your bore is that out of whack.

[barnett468]

Roughly how much is a bore?

Don't forget the cost of a good us made piston and ring set if you don't want to take chances of it smoking again. Maybe $125.00?

[CodyRosa]

Yup i'll be going with Wiseco or KB said Shindy. EBA haha wow i didn't even notice that's how i wrote that. I know i'll always be boring my cylinders =D

[kb0nly]

Watch out or one of the mods will change you from Just Too Addicted and make it Just Needs Boring... LOL

[joefixit0]

I'm assuming your oil ring is the 3 piece style, make sure that the expander ends are NOT overlapping, if this happens and you install them like this, the oil ring will never seal.

[CodyRosa]

hahahaah just needs boring, I like that, i'd be unique then. Yea I honestly might pull the top end just to see.. i guess ya never know. I still am going to get it bored but I guess i was in such a rush I might have messed up. The motors yanked and sitting on my table so I might as well check it out.

[kb0nly]

If your lucky you got the rings indexed wrong, but sorry to say i doubt it! I haven't seen one yet that was ok with just a hone and rings, usually once they get to the point of needing rings anyway its time for a bore! LOL

Is this that one motor you got in that deal with a couple trikes and a bunch of parts you posted on here a while back? Forgive me old age catching up.... LOL

[CodyRosa]

I hope so.. i guess i'll see when i pull the top off tomorrow! I honestly doubt it to.. after thinking about it.. 29 years old on the same bore lol, im sure its time. The bottom end is actually from that deal BUT the top end is from the 200M I got from my grandpa. Those cylinders that were in that deal.. were beyond terrible. Needed to be bored badly. haha your not that old KB =D

I'll post updates tomorrow!