New carb, spark but still wouldn't fire......HELP

[ericmreimer]

'84 200ES with new carb, new plug. Pulled the plug and its getting plenty of spark. What next? Maybe I need to prime the carb? Might try a shot of starting fluid?

Oh, it hasn't run in years either. It was given to me a couple weeks ago.

[yammerhammer88]

check for fuel and a quick way would be to pull the spark plug and prime the engine if it fires over definitely a fuel issue

[yammerhammer88]

i would also check for intake restrictions such as clogged intake manifold, carb-to-airbox intake boot, airbox with rats nest or other restrictions, especially if its been sitting and the air filter itself could be clogged, hopefully its not a mechanical hard failure such as broken intake rocker arm tip which would not let the fuel/air mixture in or other things, but i highly doubt it if the trike is in good/fair shape. i hope this kind of helps, im new to the forums but not new to motors

[yammerhammer88]

oh and btw, sometimes new parts such as carbs, etc. have a cosmoline type gel crap used to prevent corrosion rust and prevent/ wick away moisture for storing and shipping, that might cause the fuel float to stick in a closed position ive made that mistake several times easy to do with the excitement when putting on new parts to hear something run

[ericmreimer]

Thanks guys, I had the air box off and when the card was off I could see the intake valve, i dont think its a intake restriction. also opened the rocker arm caps and cranked it just to make sure it was opening and closing fine and all seems ok.

Going to get some starter fluid tomorrow and go from there.

Thanks, will report back!

[kb0nly]

Dont use that starting fluid crap!!! Good way to ruin a 4 stroke engine.

Get a small $1.00 or less spray bottle from the cleaning supplies isle in any store, fill it with fresh gas, and there you have your primer. You can set it to stream to squirt right in the plug hole or mist and fog into the carb. Safer than starting fluid which in my opinion has its use, but only on a diesel!! LOL

If you crank it over for a while does the spark plug even get wet? Also, pull off the airbox cover and filter and leave it off for now to troubleshoot, sometimes the frame tube gets full of crap from a squirrel or mouse. I had one the tube was full of acorns! Which meant no air to the airbox.

[ericmreimer]

I'll give it another shot when I get home tonight and report back!

[ericmreimer]

So I got it running last night and was hoping it would just fire up tonight but it did not start. I made a disheartening observation though. I was looking for the timing marks and noticed that while turning over the motor with the starter there was air coming out of the timing inspection port. In my head I'm thinking ring blow by but on the other hand yesterday when it was running, it didn't smoke at all.

The other thing....stupid I know....but how do you turn it over by hand? Pull string is broke and I am waiting on back tires. I never got it turned over to check the timing marks.

Also can someone give me a quick and dirty on how to check compression? I'll go do a google search too but is there any special considerations with a ATC?

[CodyRosa]

How do you turn it over by hand? Are you trying to start it by turning it over or turning it just to see the timing marks? To start it (without tires) try wrapping rope around it and pulling. Not sure what your machine has but mine has a basket type thing behind the recoil so I just stick a long screw driver in there and slowly turn it.

Well do you have a compression tester? I'm sure somewhere like NAPA or O Reillies would carry one. Not sure if you can rent these?

Also are you 100% positive you are getting good spark? I thought I was getting good spark to once.. ended up NOT being good spark. Bought a new plug and it fired first pull. Also make sure the spark doesn't cut out every once in awhile.. check grounds, loose wires etc.

[ericmreimer]

Just trying to line up the timing marks.

I don't have a gauge but will go get one today. Don't you just pull the plug, install the tester and crank it a few times. There's a check valve and it just keeps the pressure on the gauge. Is that right? Never used one before. You'd think I would have an idea considering I've built motors but just never had a need.

I'm going to pick up a couple extra plugs when I get the tester tonight.

Thanks

[tvpierce]

Yes, that's the proper procedure, with one addition: the throttle has to be wide open.

EDIT: BTW, air blowing out the inspection port is perfectly normal. Mine does it, and my compression is perfect (155 psi)

[kb0nly]

Air out the inspection port is normal, and if it was running and you removed it you would get a nice spray of oil... The 200ES has a wet flywheel and stator, there is oil in that side of the motor all the time as its the return from the head down the timing chain galley.

If you remove the pull starter, just bolts to the side of the motor, there is a metal basket type piece that the recoil engages to rotate the engine, you can use a screwdriver across the slots to slowly turn it over, or a strap wrench around it, i have done that before to line up timing marks.

Definitely check compression, no telling why it was originally parked, i have had a few that were parked because they had engine problems but by the time i discovered them nobody knew that reason anymore. When you had it running did it smoke at all????

[ericmreimer]

First i want to apologize for multiple threads


Thanks for all the help so far, we're getting there slowly but surely.....

It did not smoke at all! There is some black soot on the tail pipe however and a lot of rust chunks blew out onto the garage floor. The original owner doesn't know why it was parked unfortunately because her husband passed several years ago and its just been in the barn since about '96 or so.

[kb0nly]

Does the exhaust still have the spark arrestor in the end of the pipe? If it does see if you can get it out, clean it up, and with it out get it running rev it a few times and blow some more crap out, or keep revving it until nothing comes out.

Blowing out rust chunks and crap like it is you could have a partially plugged exhaust which could be a big part of your problem. My 200ES did the same thing when i got it, was running rough and rich and even after replacing the carb it still ran like crap. I found out the exhaust was bad and replaced it, night and day difference.

[tvpierce]

Does the exhaust still have the spark arrestor in the end of the pipe? If it does see if you can get it out, clean it up, and with it out get it running rev it a few times and blow some more crap out, or keep revving it until nothing comes out.

Blowing out rust chunks and crap like it is you could have a partially plugged exhaust which could be a big part of your problem. My 200ES did the same thing when i got it, was running rough and rich and even after replacing the carb it still ran like crap. I found out the exhaust was bad and replaced it, night and day difference.

+1

I chased problems on mine for months (got a lot of guidance from KB and others) but it still ran like crap. I finally swapped the exhaust, and bingo... it runs like a top.

BTW, you could trouble shoot it easily/cheaply just by taking the muffler off (leave the header pipe on). It'll be really loud, but if the exhaust is the problem, it will run much better -- just a bit lean.

[ericmreimer]

i'm scared that if i do pull it, i'll never get it back together but i might just do that so I know! Plus that would be justification to get a new set up anyway.

[ericmreimer]

Ok I have 150psi compression bought a harbor $20 set on my way home. That's a GOOD SIGN. Put in a new plug too but didn't help. Still didn't fire. I'll pull the muffler tonight.

I also have a video of it running. I'll get it up loaded on YouTube. It actaually seems to be starting pretty good now but about 5-10 seconds after it starts it starts running like crap, stumbling and its like.....well I'm not sure really. After dinner ill post a video

EDIT**** hooked up jumper cables to it and it started after a few cranks. Once it charged up a bit, it'll fire right up. But run badly. See the next post

[ericmreimer]

http://youtu.be/RPDvsZWnf2I

http://youtu.be/Y0hzYK1WA1Q

http://youtu.be/qyYIkpdHxi0

Here is the link to the videos.

It's like something strange happens at a couple seconds after it starts. I have no clue!

[kb0nly]

150 psi is good, your symptoms sure sound like an engine that isn't breathing well. You didn't mention if it still has the spark arrestor, if it doesnt you might have had a mouse crawl in and make the muffler his home. Will watch for the video!

You can unbolt the muffler and then unbolt the clamp that holds it to the header pipe and get it off, run it straight pipe a bit, as he said it will be louder than all hell, but if it runs better you know the reason. A complete exhaust setup from DG is around $150 so its not the end of the world if it needs replacing and its quick bolt up to replace it. However... Let me give this advice. If you get to the point of pulling the muffler off and it runs better then start soaking the nuts on the exhaust studs at the head with some PB Blaster and do it daily until you get your new exhaust... LOL... Chances are they will be rusted on good by now.

[ericmreimer]

Lol got the vids up, let me know how that sounds.....look above. It does have the arrestor still on it. I'm going out to pull the muffler right now

[natedogg1980]

Id recommend a fuel filter make sure there isnt any dabree in the tank . My 200s was in the same state barn kept I thought I cleaned the tank looked in the filter there was more crap keep your new carb clean

[kb0nly]

Thats a good point too... Good catch. Watching videos... I don't think its fuel starved though, for one you said the plug is fouling, and two if it was doing a slow fill of the bowl and the engine was using up the fuel before it could refill it would take far longer than a few seconds. I know that for a fact.. How you ask? Because i have taken off and forgot to open the petcock, it will run a pretty long time on a bowl of fuel! About a block and a half at mid throttle to be exact... LOL

I just watched the videos a few times....

Hard to tell much other then it definitely runs decent for a few seconds then gets noisy and sounds like its missing or sputtering anyway. It almost sounds like there is some top end noise but thats normal on these 200's, i would check the timing chain tension though just to be safe also.

[ericmreimer]

i did change the filter and all the line with the new carb. there is a small......and i mean small amount of stuff in the tank but the filter will pick that up....or should. its a plastic tank too btw so rust is minimal.

[kb0nly]

Oh yeah thats right you have a plastic tank, watched the videos and wasn't paying attention to that, i was just listening hard... LOL So yeah no worries there other than the usual dirt and condensation buildup.

I still think its having issues breathing, its like it runs fine for a few seconds then starts starving for airflow. Will be interesting to see what happens if you get the muffler pulled off, or at least get the arrestor out.

[barnett468]

ok read all the posts if it runs the same with the muffler off and you can blow through it easily AND you try it with the air boot removed as i tjink kbonly is eluding to i would pull the plug to see if it's wet as another asked you to do. if it is not 100%bone dry then it is rich likely due to either and ignition misfire or carb setting.

is your gas new?

was tank free old brown dried up gas.

look at gas, if it is the color of apple juice or darker it is bad and will cause this exact same problem. tank might still have old dried up gas in it.

GAS LEVEL CHECK - Attach a clear 14" long piece of plastic tubing to the bottom of carb, hold open end even with too of carb, open tank valve and float bowl drain screw. gas in tube should be from even to 1/8" below the bottom of the carb body where it meets the bowl. if it is not at this level adjust float.

if it is high and your plug is wet correcting the level may help

if its still wet with the proper or slightly lower gas level it may still need a smaller main jet.

both these are based upon a good electrical system and proper cam timing but try jetting since it is easy. i might try a number that is around 12 smaller than the current one.

i did not see that you check cam timing either. can you do that? this will eliminate another possible cause.

[barnett468]

forgot, if it is not running rich and the other tests don't fix it then try hooking up a timing lite and start it in a dark place, if the misses, than you have an ignition problem.

[ericmreimer]

Well the muffler is not coming off in one piece ;( the heat shield screws are stripped on and I have to get it off because there is a bolt behind it.

I checked the timing by removing the pull starter and turning over the engine by hand. I lined up the T and line on the ignition under the CDI cover. Here is a picture
175641
175642

Now pulling the exhaust is an entirely different story. Not gonna be easy because the heat shield is not coming off so I can't get to the other bolt. I didn't want to cut the shield but that might be my only way.

Im going to dig out a timing light and see where it goes from there and try to get the exhaust off.

[ericmreimer]

Alright.....the previous owner dropped the rear rims/tires off today. So all 3 are dry rotted but I now have the hubs and rims.


Ok.....running issue. I wasn't able to get the exhaust off but I did unbolt it from the block and luckily enough it just came right off. I put my air hose in there, suffer a rag in to fill the gap and opened the valve with 120psi behind it and blew a bunch of crap out of the exhaust. Rust and other stuff blew out. Put it all back together.

I also noticed the the ignition was off a tiny bit. I loosened it slightly moved it a bit and made sure it lined up perfectly. Put it back together. I fired it up, put air in the tires and slip them on it and carefully drive it around the driveway. It actually reved great.......I think a combo of the ignition timing and exhaust were making it run like crap. I'm actually out of gas right now so I'm going to go and fill up and fire it back up. I think we may be almost there! I want to see how it starts cold and runs from there!!!

Here's a current picture

175648

[GunsShooting]

I like those rear tires.

Russ

[ericmreimer]

Alright guys, I think we have it running about as good as its going to get. Been riding it around the yard for couple hours. Have to be really careful, tires leak down after about 10-15 minutes and I don't have any axel nuts for the rears.

I just want to say THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP!

Mission accomplished!

[kb0nly]

Awesome! I saw your other thread, weekly progress, and i had to come back to this thread and see whats up! LOL

Oh one note... The timing should be set using the F mark not the T mark. The F mark is just to the left of the T mark on the flywheel. Set it to F and then adjust the pickup coil at the advancer. Otherwise the spark will be retarded a bit.

[honda200xguy]

check the cdi box? that's my guess if you're not getting spark..
Or the coil..make sure all the connections are good and there's no gunk on them

[barnett468]

Alright guys, I think we have it running about as good as its going to get. Been riding it around the yard for couple hours. Have to be really careful, tires leak down after about 10-15 minutes and I don't have any axel nuts for the rears.

I just want to say THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP!

Mission accomplished!Congratulations! happy motoring.

You might do a plug reading for jetting now.