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auroraglass
08-20-2013, 01:12 PM
is the big red ac or dc ? thanks

kb0nly
08-20-2013, 08:14 PM
AC... Actually i believe all the Honda trikes are AC.

Which year and model you working on? Service manuals available at my website below.

wonderboy
08-20-2013, 10:41 PM
I thought that the machines with electric start and a battery ran DC. The alternator provides AC, but it runs through the rectifier / regulator to put out DC voltage to recharge the battery. I do know that the machines without a battery are AC.

Flyingw
08-21-2013, 01:04 AM
Wonderboy has the correct answer. The stator is actually an AC alternator. The entire electrical system with the exception of the power coming directly from the battery to the starter runs on AC. The AC power is fed through a full wave rectifier/inverter and a single DC tap comes out of the rectifier and runs back to the battery to charge it. The rectifier/inverter caps the variable AC output from the stator at 13.6 volts as well as providing DC power to the battery. The trikes without batteries run strictly on AC power. The 250R,350X, and late model 200Xs have a shunt sometimes referred to as a regulator that simply cap the voltage from the alternator at 13.6. Other models like the 83-85 200X, 185(S), 200S etc use the main harness wiring and the natural restistance and the resistance in the light bulb filament to regulate the AC power. That's your electrical lesson for the day.

tvpierce
08-21-2013, 06:13 AM
Just to add clarity since the OP referenced the CDI: even though the Big Red does have a DC system on board with a battery and regulator/rectifier. The IGNITION system power is generated through a separate coil which does not run through the reg/rect.. The ignition system is 100% AC.

At least that's the case on the 200E & ES. I don't know about the '85+ 250ES -- that's a completely different engine.

kb0nly
08-21-2013, 12:32 PM
Wonderboy has the correct answer. The stator is actually an AC alternator. The entire electrical system with the exception of the power coming directly from the battery to the starter runs on AC. The AC power is fed through a full wave rectifier/inverter and a single DC tap comes out of the rectifier and runs back to the battery to charge it. The rectifier/inverter caps the variable AC output from the stator at 13.6 volts as well as providing DC power to the battery. The trikes without batteries run strictly on AC power. The 250R,350X, and late model 200Xs have a shunt sometimes referred to as a regulator that simply cap the voltage from the alternator at 13.6. Other models like the 83-85 200X, 185(S), 200S etc use the main harness wiring and the natural restistance and the resistance in the light bulb filament to regulate the AC power. That's your electrical lesson for the day.

Correct but incorrect at the same time my friend!

He was asking about the CDI... All the trikes have an AC ignition system, period. The ignition source coil provides AC to the pulse gen and then to the CDI on all these. Yes they do have DC on some models but thats merely for lighting and battery charging, along with the electric start. But even on the models with a battery the ignition system is still running on AC.

Flyingw
08-21-2013, 03:36 PM
I must not have been clear on my post but yes, that's what I was implying. AC for ignition, AC for lighting. The only DC goes to charge the battery and turn the starter and I recall the ES had a DC accessory plug yes/no?. The SX has a tap behind the headlight for a small accesssory but its AC as well.

kb0nly
08-21-2013, 09:12 PM
Some of the DC models also have DC lighting. The ES has DC to the lights. Quick way to test, can the lights work without the engine running and a battery installed? If the answer is yes then the lights are DC powered.

The ES does have an accessory power outlet by the headlight, it was for the hondaline spotlight accessory. I have used that for everything from charging my phone to powering power tool chargers that plug into a cigarette lighter outlet. I made a pigtail that has the factory power plug on it and a cigarette lighter outlet on the other end. Works great.

Flyingw
08-21-2013, 11:19 PM
That is true KB. The primary source of power for the lights on the ES and SX does come from the battery. Typically on a lighting system such as on the trikes with batteries and in your car/truck etc, the lighting runs off the battery. When the battery power level drops to a certain level, the rectifier charges the battery back up then shuts off the charging circuit when the battery is fully charged. That's why these types of batteries don't like to be heavily discharged whereas a deep cycle battery is designed to be discharged completely then recharged without damaging the battery. With that said though, say you remove the battery from the trike, you you turn the key on and you have no lights prior to engine start right? BUT when you kick start the engine, now you have lights right? Now, with no battery, the source of power is now the AC alternator. This is due to a wire providing power from the battery to the inverter/rectifier but in the absence of battery, a transistor in the inverter/rectifier now redirects power from the alternator to the lighting circuit so one could say that the lighting on these types of machines is actually AC and DC. The light bulb in the SX for example is an H4 bulb and the same bulb used on the 250R with no battery at all.

Flyingw
08-21-2013, 11:33 PM
Without seeing the circuit diagram of the inverter rectifier, one could argue that the lighting on the ES/SX etc is still AC. Its possible that with the engine off, power for the lights comes from the battery but once the engine is started power is redirected from the battery to the alternator via a transistor in the rectifier. The stator plates do have a lighting coil so which answer is right? There is a red wire running between the battery to the ignition and it has one leg that branches off to the rectifier. The coils that makeup the stator all run to the rectifier/inverter so having a power distribution circuit in the rectifier/inverter is a simple thing to do. like I said, I would need to see the circuit diagrams of the rectifier/inverter to determine which answer is right.

kb0nly
08-22-2013, 04:45 PM
Actually the lights on them are always DC, even without the battery. The ignition switch and lighting power comes off the DC output of the rectifier/regulator, without a battery they will dim at idle because the battery isn't there to smooth out the DC power when the input AC drops to the rectifier/regulator. The battery acts like the filter capacitor in a DC power supply on these trikes, smooths out the rectified DC.

Also there is no switching to charge the battery, it doesn't "shut off" when fully charged. A battery will draw the current necessary to charge itself, once it becomes fully charged the amount of current draw from the battery drops off all on its own. The rectifier/regulator does nothing else but rectify the AC from the alternator to DC and then cap it at a set voltage, usually around 14-15v depending on the manufacturer. They should stay under 15v at the battery terminals though to prevent boiling the battery out. Generally the limit of these is around 14.2-14.6v for the top end.

Power isn't redirected or anything, its not magical.. LOL.. Its simply available on the output of the rectifier/regulator with the engine running, battery or not. The red wire coming off the rectifier/regulator feeds the ignition switch, the output of the switch goes to the light switch. There is also a tap off the red wire at the battery with a fuse that charges the battery. If you want on these you can pull the fuse at the battery and run the lights off the rectifier/regulator output only but of course you won't be charging the battery either. I mention this because its a good way to troubleshoot a battery vs rectifier/regulator problem. Pull the fuse check the battery voltage at the battery terminals, pop the fuse back in and you should see the voltage slowly go up as the battery starts to charge.