E15 gas, AAA and Fox News?

[tri again]

Youtube, looks real.
The new E15 will void car warranties if made before 2012.

Pls forgive me if this is old news.

What I did like was the fact that it separates, alcohol on the bottom of station tanks so some folks may get 100% alc.
Lucky we have 2 stations in this small town that carry non alcohol gasoline with another 4 miles away.

[El Camexican]

Even on Flexfuel vehicals?

[kb0nly]

This is nothing new... We have been running E15 and other blends here in the Midwest for a while now. We have whats called blender pumps here, you can select E10, E15, E20, E85, some stations allow other selections. In these setups the gasoline and the ethanol are in separate tanks, the pump then blends them for the correct mix at the hose.

I have run E15 in my 2003 Jeep Liberty. I have been told it would not void any warranties, though i don't have any warranty at this time. I also have a 2008 Dodge Caliber here, it runs fine on E15 and even E20, the only problem at those higher concentrations is the fuel mileage drops off. Ethanol provides less power per gallon then gasoline does, just a simple fact. Yes it burns cleaner, and some argue better, but it has less energy as a fuel compared to gasoline. So you burn more for the same amount of power as you would get from gasoline.

As for straight gas, i have mentioned it here before, i haven't seen a non-ethanol fuel available here for something like 15 years? We have E10 and E85 available locally, and in nearby towns we have the blender pumps. There is no premium available anywhere here now. The stations stopped carrying it because it didnt sell. One station here had to have their supplier pump out their premium tank before it went bad, i remember that. That was back in 98 i believe. Then they refilled with E10.

I don't know why everyone fears Ethanol, but then i have been living with it so long its as normal as toilet paper.

[atctim]

Not sure if anyone else saw it, but the corn needed to produce this is screwing up the eco-system (actually the farming methods used - but it is all encouraged by the gubment). The same tree huggers that want it, don't realize what it is doing to the environment! MORONS!

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/11/12/ap-obama-admins-corn-ethanol-policies-are-pretty-terrible-for-the-environment/

[LastFoolerInVA]

the really funny thing about ethanol is that the plants that manufacture it.... they use petroleum products to produce ethanol... so.. it takes oil to produce an oil free fuel... anyone else see the irony in that??

[RIDE-RED 250r]

The whole ethanol fiasco has proven to be a net energy loss. Not only the use of petroleum products, but the whole process actually costs more energy form the field to your fuel tank than it yields. Nothing but pork for politicians...

Currently, there is just no other source of energy for transportation that is cheaper or more efficient in terms of the energy output than good old mother nature's oil. It's already made. We just have to harvest it and refine it.

This is the problem when the all-knowing, all-powerful government and unaccountable agencies like the EPA meddle in the free market and technology. You just cannot regulate/legislate technological advancement. It will happen organically as the need/demand grows. Government cannot produce anything, it only creates market distortions that end up being subsidized by the tax payers. Solindra anyone?

[El Camexican]

The whole ethanol fiasco has proven to be a net energy loss. Not only the use of petroleum products, but the whole process actually costs more energy form the field to your fuel tank than it yields. Nothing but pork for politicians...

Currently, there is just no other source of energy for transportation that is cheaper or more efficient in terms of the energy output than good old mother nature's oil. It's already made. We just have to harvest it and refine it.

This is the problem when the all-knowing, all-powerful government and unaccountable agencies like the EPA meddle in the free market and technology. You just cannot regulate/legislate technological advancement. It will happen organically as the need/demand grows. Government cannot produce anything, it only creates market distortions that end up being subsidized by the tax payers. Solindra anyone?

Well said Sir!

[King Trikester]

the really funny thing about ethanol is that the plants that manufacture it.... they use petroleum products to produce ethanol... so.. it takes oil to produce an oil free fuel... anyone else see the irony in that??

I disagree with that, possibly some plants but It seems unlikly . i don't know where you got your info from but I work at one of the "plants" We don't use any oil to produce anything. We burn natural gas in our cat engines that provide power. (turn generators and compressors)

[El Camexican]

I have a Flex fuel 5.3 Avalanche that I drove a few thousand miles this summer across North America. I get 19mpg in Mexico all day long. When I get up into the States and start using blended fuel I drop down to 17. Then there are the E85 States; 12mpg! Seriously? This how were' going to save the world? Using farm land and crops to make this crap while driving up the price of milk & beef? In India they burn cow dung for everything, the smoke is everywhere. In China they burn low grade coal at a rate that would blow your minds, but we’re going to save the world subsidizing this stuff? Please, they out number you buy a combined 2.5 billion! The cure to this planets contamination and energy needs is depopulation. Plain and simple. I’m not talking about genocide, just common sense. A Mormon cult Dude in Utah can father 30 kids, have the unwed mothers draw welfare on them and it's ok, but you have to pay for it and burn junk in your tank because the worlds renewable resources are being depleting faster than they can replenish? Two kids per woman, max. At this point in history it is irresponsible to have more than that. Now, what was this post about?:wondering

[tri again]

Even on Flexfuel vehicals?

Let me see if I can find the link. Couldn't see a date for the broadcast.
Maybe they're trying to sell new cars to spur the economy..who knows what the 'news' is doing...
Flex vehicles are ok.
The 'warnings' were from AAA about vehicle warranties.

Brazil? is 100%?? for years now?
Thanks to KB for the 'blender' pump idea.

I've taken quite a few trike (and other old) carbs apart that ran etoh and the aluminum literally fuzzes up.
I guess it's supposed to be corrosive.
Not sure what I'd do if we couldn't have alc free gas. Some kind of additive perhaps?
Heavy logging country so maybe that's why we can get it.
Marinas and smaill airports are also another place to get it, maybe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceW9Nc1hVHU

[tri again]

SN - My 1947 JD 2 cyl will run on woodsmoke nd distillate and probably nail polish remover.
I was grade mowing by the river, staring at the 8 inch heat waves off the muffler for hours.
Ran low on pump gas, came back to the barn to refuel
and all I had was the straight gas.
At a dollar more a gallon, I hesitated but had no real choice.

Back down to the river, that ol' JD ran smoother, happier and the heat waves off the muff went from 8-10" ripples down to barely an inch without the alcohol.

I thought it may have a cooling effect but obviously runs hotter with less hp.
Hard to believe if I didn't see it myself.

[El Camexican]

Brazil? is 100%?? for years now?
I read way back that Brazil uses a different base to make their fuel (sugar cane?) It is much more efficient and cheaper than the US way.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Well, here in the Soviet Socialists Republik of New Yorke, they ended up allowing marinas to sell no-ethanol fuels because of the issues it creates with boats. It is not an urban myth, hype, or he-said/she-said. If you lose your means of propulsion on the water, you can easily find yourself in grave danger....

I have seen with my own eyes how much faster a carb can get "fuzzy" as Tri-Again put it. And it happens waaaay faster than it used to with normal fuel.

Ethanol is a bad joke. And the only people laughing are the politicians, the people who enjoy the kick-backs from them, and the environ-MENTAL-ists. While they laugh and dance, we pay the band.

[Thorpe]

This is nothing new... We have been running E15 and other blends here in the Midwest for a while now. We have whats called blender pumps here, you can select E10, E15, E20, E85, some stations allow other selections. In these setups the gasoline and the ethanol are in separate tanks, the pump then blends them for the correct mix at the hose.

I have run E15 in my 2003 Jeep Liberty. I have been told it would not void any warranties, though i don't have any warranty at this time. I also have a 2008 Dodge Caliber here, it runs fine on E15 and even E20, the only problem at those higher concentrations is the fuel mileage drops off. Ethanol provides less power per gallon then gasoline does, just a simple fact. Yes it burns cleaner, and some argue better, but it has less energy as a fuel compared to gasoline. So you burn more for the same amount of power as you would get from gasoline.

As for straight gas, i have mentioned it here before, i haven't seen a non-ethanol fuel available here for something like 15 years? We have E10 and E85 available locally, and in nearby towns we have the blender pumps. There is no premium available anywhere here now. The stations stopped carrying it because it didnt sell. One station here had to have their supplier pump out their premium tank before it went bad, i remember that. That was back in 98 i believe. Then they refilled with E10.

I don't know why everyone fears Ethanol, but then i have been living with it so long its as normal as toilet paper.

You guys can keep that crap down in Iowa/South Dak! (Tyler is dang near in both, isn't it?):lol: I haven't been seeing anything out of the norm up here in the cities, yet... (Out of the normal 10-15% crap) And have 2 fueling stations within 3 miles of my place with non-oxy gas... But I will be damned if I am gonna burn anymore ethanol in my 2012 ram then I absolutely have too! What is this world coming to?

[Jwmajic]

I stopped using the ethanol gas completely because of the high humidity here. if you store it more than a month or 2 it adsorbs so much water it phase separates.


http://www.enertechlabs.com/fuel_phase_separation_in_ethanol.htm

[3>4]

The E15 blend is ok for vehicles 2002 and newer I believe. The only problem I have is that our 87 octane gas now has ethanol in it, so I have to use the more expensive stuff for my 3 wheelers. I use ethanol in my 2002 F150, but I rarely drive it. I usually drive my 2001 VW Beetle tdi. Diesel is the way to go.

[Scootertrash]

I disagree with that, possibly some plants but It seems unlikly . i don't know where you got your info from but I work at one of the "plants" We don't use any oil to produce anything. We burn natural gas in our cat engines that provide power. (turn generators and compressors)

How do you transport the corn to the plant and then the ethanol after it's produced? The corn has to be shipped by truck or train to the plant, then sent by truck and/or train to the storage facility and/or the gas station. That uses diesel or gasoline, mainly diesel, which is a petroleum product. So while technically they may not be using petroleum products to produce ethanol, Petroleum products are still used to transport it.


Ethanol in the U.S. is transported mostly by truck, train, and barge, unlike oil, which is generally transported through pipelines. Unlike oil, ethanol mixes with water. Because water accumulation in pipelines is a normal occurrence, unless the pipeline is cleaned out and made watertight, transporting ethanol in a pipeline risks making it unusable as a fuel.

http://www.energyfuturecoalition.org/biofuels/fact_ethanol.htm#9

It's not as efficient as gasoline, and we are turning food into fuel. More irony: The same lefties who complain about the fossil fuels destroying the environment also complain that there is a world food shortage. :wondering :crazy:


ETA: What does all this have to do with AAA or Fox News?

[Outlaw #24]

I don't claim to know much about the Ethanol production or usage for that matter. I agree with you in the fact that we are using our food supply for renewable energy instead of feeding either us or livestock that feed us. Although because of this new Technology , it has been found that we can now use the cellulous fibers, (cornstalks, tree leaves, grass clippings ext.), to produce the ethanol. Yes you are also correct by your statement that the production and transporting of the products is mainly conducted with the use of fossil fuels. But we do the same to refine it from it's raw state also. Ethanol is reproducible , more environmental friendly, more
economical to purchase and produce. It as well as other renewable sources of energy are the wave of the future. Methanol is the basic same structure and it is way more costly to produce. All internal combustion engines can be produced to run on 100% ethanol also. I drive a Hybrid myself. Waiting for hydrogen power which is better yet!

[El Camexican]

Waiting for hydrogen power which is better yet! That would be great. I hear it's the bomb!

[kb0nly]

All these comments really surprise me...

Fuzzy carbs?? I guess if i put some shag carpet in the bowls.. (lol) I have NEVER seen a fuzzy carb or corroded aluminum just because of ethanol blended fuels. I haven't had any water issues either, but then i don't let them sit for months at a time. Even straight non blended gas goes bad and varnishes things up. You just can't let fuel sit no matter what type it is!

I use the 10% blend, i add Stabil to the fuel if its for the snowblower or generator, since i know that will sit for a month or more between uses. Otherwise i drain the tanks and refill them with fresh a few times a year and it hasn't caused issues yet. Usually when i drain the generator tank into my 5 gal jug i pour that into the lawnmower, trikes, even mix with 2-cycle oil and fill up the weed eater, etc. I have even just emptied that five gallons into my vehicle as well.

Can't say as i have ever had a fuel related problem with my own equipment. Its all about maintenance and doing it.

[tri again]

x2
gas cans are not much different than gas tanks.
Keep 'em full and rotate stock.
I have that old 1947 jd that will burn darn near anything.
Funny how a year can go by before I get arounbd to cycling all the fuels.

Since you mentioned it KB, I think a dry float bowl can be worse than one with
stabilized fuel in it.
I had one, prob sat for years empty and it looked like it was hit with a saltshaker.

Yupp, run 'em and rotate.

[3>4]

Ethanol byproducts are used to feed livestock. So technically we are still using it as food, there is just another step in between.

[tri again]

I should take a picture of the aluminum riverts on my stainless steel
cooking pot.
Great for acidic spaghetti sauce if you aspire to the connection between aluminum and oldtimers disease.
I just use it to heat water and throw moisture into the air from the woodstove so, what's that? heat cycles and clean, fresh water.

Maybe that's it.
My carbs are simply forgetting where they are and what they were doing.

[kb0nly]

x2
gas cans are not much different than gas tanks.
Keep 'em full and rotate stock.
I have that old 1947 jd that will burn darn near anything.
Funny how a year can go by before I get arounbd to cycling all the fuels.

Since you mentioned it KB, I think a dry float bowl can be worse than one with
stabilized fuel in it.
I had one, prob sat for years empty and it looked like it was hit with a saltshaker.

Yupp, run 'em and rotate.

Agreed on leaving a carb dry... I remember my neighbor and his snowblower, he said he always followed what the manual said and drained the bowl. It was an old Tecumseh 7hp with the drain on the bowl. He said he always had to pull the bowl off in the fall and clean it out. I was thinking then why drain it if you just have to clean it anyway??

[trizilla]

this is a great thread. glad i came to read it. i deal with ethanol related fuel issues on a daily basis. i'm shop manager for a big local lawn and garden dealer. over the past 5 yrs or so i have went from being able to clean and repair carbs to having to replace them. we have e10 here now, no e15,20,or 85 yet. we were also late getting the e10, but in the midwest where most of the corn is its very popular in different grades. flex fuel vehicles will be fine as they are set to run up to e85, its small engine's i.e. snowblowers,lawn tractors, push mowers, chain saws, and so on that are going to be hurt.

i try to keep up on this because it related to my job, basically the epa keeps changing federal regulations on what percentage can be run, and that is the problem with the small engine industry. kohler, briggs, stihl, husqvarna, and anyone else can built an engine to run on ethanol bases fuel, just not different grades. e10 is fine nowadays when you buy anything, but none of it is built to run on e15.

beyond that a big part of the problem with it is that ethanol attracts water. airborn moisture. ethanol based fuels will carry roughly .5% ( 1/2 of 1 %) water, when the water content increases, airborn moisture, it causes phase seperation. phase seperation is basically all that water, .5%, seperating from the fuel and adding to whatever it has soaked up. we all know what happens to the water, drops to the bottom because its heavier than fuel. now that big water blob falls through your fuel lines and into your carb.

i have no idea how it is anywhere else but here, you can only buy fuel cans that are self sealing. i'm sure someone has seen them too. wonder why? ethanol based fuel. what really chaps me is that this was supposed to make our fuel costs go down and it hasnt. these days we are using more than 20% ethanol in america's fuel supply but are still paying $3+ per gallon.

i should add that ethanol based fuel is also very corrosive, kinda like methanol or nitro methane. it will dry out anything it touches, leaving it in anything for a long period of time is not a good idea. you can treat your fuel but not all fuel treatment works. i try hard to warn my customers of this and advise them to read about what they are gonna buy. i personally dont use any fuel additives in my own equipment, i have 9 trikes, 1 harley, 1 sled, a riding mower, and a pile of handhelds. i do try to run most of it every once in a while and keep rotating fuel. i also keep very little here, i buy as needed because to many times i've had to go to someone's house and point out the lady bugs or big blob of water in the bottom of their can.

[kb0nly]

I have run E15 at the proper oil mix in my Stihl saws with no ill effects! Actually it has a bit better throttle response with the higher ethanol blends. My Ryobi trimmer seems ok at E10 but i think the carb will need a tweak for E15, it stumbles a bit. But then it hasn't had a new plug in two seasons... LOL... Keep forgetting to grab one at the store but it runs every time i need it, you know how it goes.

I know one thing for sure, the higher ethanol blends sure do keep the valves and the spark plug cleaner. Cleaned with corn! LOL

[Outlaw #24]

I run the gasohol in just about all of my small engines but do not store them with it in there. We run Ethanol in all of the sprint car engines and I take the fuel pump and bypasses out and treat them with any kind of lubricant we got because that stuff will turn any aluminum part to a pile of junk in a matter of a month. SEEN IT! Lawn mowers and anything with a diaphragm carb/pump needs to be either used weekly or treated with a No alcohol fuel or it dries out and looses it's elasticity!