Am I testing these parts right? '84 ATC 200ES

[themdg]

Hi There.

I'm working on my sweet 84 200ES. About 18 months ago, it stopped running mid-ride. Turned out the carb had some apart a bit. After letting it sit for 18 months, I finally got around to rebuilding the carb. So that's done.

It started once, which seemed magical, and now it doesn't start. I don't think it's related to the carb, because it doesn't even try to start.

So I've been reading the manual about the starting system, and have been testing the following:

Stuff I'm testing that is new to me: (this is where I need help)
Coil: I pulled off the coil and used a multi-meter to test it. According to the maual, the primary coil should be in the 0.2-0.4ohms range, and it's testing in the 1.0-1.4 range. The second coil should be in the 3-5kohms range, and it's right around 3500. So based on the primary coil readings, does this part need replacing? I'm guessing that this is way too far out of range.
CDI Box: I used my cheap multi-meter to test this one, contrary to the manual telling me that it must be a specific multimeter because of the box being full transistorized, whatever that means. So, testing all of the circuits in the CDI Box chart, I'm only getting one with a reading, and it's strange. I get a number to flash, then go away immediately. No other circuits give a reading at all. So either I don't know what I'm doing and have the wrong multi-meter, or this CDI box is toast.
Below are some other notes on electrical stuff. I'm enjoying working on this dude, and would like to understand what's happening.

Other stuff I tested:
Plug/Wire: I'm getting a weak or intermittent spark. I put a new plug in, and clipped the wire. I imagine the wire is old and should be replaced, but other than being old, it looks ok.
Battery: Completely dead/dry. Filled with distilled water, but still won't hold a charge. I'll need a new one of these. Will the trike run without the battery being able to hold a charge? I know the battery is used for electric starting, but maybe it needs to be able to hold a charge to run as well, even if I pull start.

Stuff I still need to test:
Run/off switch: Maybe some gunk up in there.
Alternator: The manual makes me thing I have one of these. I'll have to find it and use the multi-meter on it.

Anyone have any feedback on the coil or CDI box?

Matt in Utah

[MNhondaguy]

My 83 200e big red doesn't need a battery to run, only for lights and starter. Not to sure of ours though, I assume its like mine.
Things to check.
1. Good compression? You can tell by pulling starter rope.
2. Make sure key and kill switch are on run, ground spark plug against head and pull over to check spark.
3. If bad spark, check the ground wire at the coil, clean and recheck spark.
4. Also check plug wire for melted or damaged areas whee it might have rubbed on the head.
5. You should be able to remove plug boot and snip/retread wire back into the boot. Also do this on coil side or wire.
6. Another thing, make sure the little "nut" on the plug itself is tight, if its NGK it likely threads on and off.
7. The boot itself could be worn, I've seen the nut on the plug gets so worn along with the boot that the boot is loosely on the plug and causes intermittent spark.

Beins you say spark is weak intermittent I'm leaning towards bad coil ground or bad boot. Possibly the coil could be shot, but check everything else first, its easy and costs nothing. I am not sure if your readings of the coil are ok or bad, hope fully someone else chimes in with more experience in testing. I've never tested any as I just swap another I have laying around to make sure.

[Flyingw]

Coil: I pulled off the coil and used a multi-meter to test it. According to the maual, the primary coil should be in the 0.2-0.4ohms range, and it's testing in the 1.0-1.4 range. (Resistance is too high on the primary).


The second coil should be in the 3-5kohms range, and it's right around 3500. So based on the primary coil readings, does this part need replacing? I'm guessing that this is way too far out of range. (Secondary resistance is good. Small k is thousands so the range is 3000-5000 ohms. This check is good but the primary is bad. Get a new ignition coil).


CDI Box: I used my cheap multi-meter to test this one, contrary to the manual telling me that it must be a specific multimeter because of the box being full transistorized, whatever that means. So, testing all of the circuits in the CDI Box chart, I'm only getting one with a reading, and it's strange. I get a number to flash, then go away immediately. No other circuits give a reading at all. So either I don't know what I'm doing and have the wrong multi-meter, or this CDI box is toast. (This is why you need special gizmos to test the CDI. The fact that you are getting a weak spark indicates the CDI is working).


A totally fried battery will sometimes take the electrical system down so replace the battery. Be sure to test the pickup coil. The run/stop switch only provides a ground to the CDI to kill the ignition so if the meter reads open (no reading) when the switch is in the run position) and 000 ohms (give or take. .2-.4 ohms) then you can call the switch good. Remember this is measured between the switch and frame ground. Be sure the point on your frame where the main wire harness bolts to the frame (green wire) has a good clean connection.

[kb0nly]

Ok lets clear this up a bit on the 200ES...

Ohms... Whatever... The best way to test these coils is voltage output period. I have ohmed out a ton of them, the readings will be all over the place for a number of reasons. Get your voltmeter, set it to AC Volts, connect the positive lead to the Black/Red wire which is your ignition source coil output, connect the negative lead to ground/frame. Crank it over, i assume you have the electric start working, but you should see the voltage with the pull start too. You should see voltage from the coil, if you have greater than 10v output on that Black/Red wire then your coil is fine.

The 200ES doesn't need a battery to run, it doesn't need a battery for lights, the battery is merely for starting and thats it. But yes it will make the lights more consistent because the lights on the ES are DC powered. The charging/lighting system, the Stator/Alternator, is completely separate from the ignition system so it doesn't make a hill of beans difference.

Now back to the no spark issues and the CDI. The CDI can NOT just be tested. I don't care what the service manual says, special meter or not your not going to test it with a meter. PERIOD. I will also say this, the most common problem on the 200ES that has gone past the boards over and over and over is the CDI going bad. There has been a few writeups on replacing it as well. Your going to have to buy an aftermarket CDI and a new connector and replace it. The 200ES uses a round connector CDI and its kind of a one year piece, finding a replacement is next to impossible and chances are any replacement you find isn't going to be in much better condition due to age. There is components, capacitors mainly, inside that age and die.

I went through this on my 200ES to. One day it just decided it didn't want to start anymore. Take the CDI and smack it as hard as you can a few times backside down on something hard, i did a few times on the sidewalk then plugged it back in and lo and behold it started back up. I did a writeup on here as well where i cut open the CDI and went through it, cleaning up the soldering and redoing it on the circuit board to get it working again. In the end i replaced the special round plug with the usual square plug and installed an aftermarket CDI. That info is on here as well, me and another member did a writeup on it, including pictures showing the replacement etc.

Check your kill switches, you can unplug them up in the headlight following the wiring diagram to rule them out. The switch in the handlebar controls sometimes gets rusty and starts shorting out when it shouldnt.

If you rule out the handlebar switch and the ignition switch as the problem for no spark then you only have three parts left. Source coil, pulse generator, and CDI. It's pretty rare for the spark coil to go bad, like really rare. I have only replaced one in like 20+ years of working on these things. On the other hand i have replaced at least a dozen CDI's now.

If you have a test light its easy to test the pulse gen to make sure your getting the pulses to the CDI from it as well. It could be a bad pulse gen or advancer, but again those parts are rarely bad or replaced.

[themdg]

Thanks, I'll check all of these items tonight and see what I can see.

[themdg]

@kb0nly, thanks. I'll get a new battery so I can more easily test the other parts while turning the engine over. I'll try cracking my CDI on the ground for kicks, but maybe I'll look at ordering a new one (and new harness) anyway.

[kb0nly]

The CDI is a safe bet, the nice thing is for about $20 you can get a new CDI and a new connector to replace the round one and your off and running again. It sucks the 84 is a special one year only CDI but thats how it goes!

[Chopsaw]

kbOnly has you going in the right direction . So just for info , mine did this , and it was a rusted kill switch . The ball bearing had rusted and would not keep it in position . I also found a blown inline fuse under the seat on the left side . Not sure what that fuse does , anyway , goodluck .

[kb0nly]

kbOnly has you going in the right direction . So just for info , mine did this , and it was a rusted kill switch . The ball bearing had rusted and would not keep it in position . I also found a blown inline fuse under the seat on the left side . Not sure what that fuse does , anyway , goodluck .

The fuse is only for the battery charging/lighting system. Has nothing to do with the ignition system.

And i agree on the kill switch, they do cause issues, but at least you can disconnect one wire to test that quick!

[metalsaj]

It may seem kinda silly and it may only be my machine, but my '84 will not start with the pull start if the transmission is in neutral and the sub-tranny is in reverse?

[kb0nly]

None of the ES's i have ridden or owned will start in reverse... They did this is a safety i guess?? Anyway, when i replaced the CDI on mine that eliminate the Gray wire from the reverse switch because the aftermarket CDI's don't have that input. The Gray wire to the CDI is grounded by the reverse switch, that wire also turns the reverse indicator light on. If you disconnect the gray wire at the CDI that will eliminate the reverse safety. I'm not 100% sure how the circuitry works in the CDI pertaining to the reverse switch input, i know its a switched ground obviously, but whats odd is if its already running and you put it in reverse it doesn't kill the ignition obviously, but if its not running and in reverse then it won't let you start it! LOL

[themdg]

It may seem kinda silly and it may only be my machine, but my '84 will not start with the pull start if the transmission is in neutral and the sub-tranny is in reverse?

Def. worth a look. Once my little Chinese scooter stopped running. I tore...it...a...part looking for a problem to no avail. Someone said "It's silly, but check the kill switch." Sure enough, it was just set to off. Forest/Trees thing for sure.

I couldn't get at it last night...sons algebra took priority. I did check the little fuse under the seat. Wiped off a spider nest, but otherwise, it looks fine (and doesn't matter for starting). Tonight I'll check the kill switch, and try whacking my CDI (which I'll also order today).

[themdg]

PS, where are you guys buying parts? The 3WW Store doesn't seem to have what I need, and ebay is all used OEM stuff, as far as I can see. Then again, I'm searching for my trike. Is there a more generic version of the CDI box I can look for?

[themdg]

Never mind. Parts ordered from dratv + ebay.

I'll follow the sticky post by kb0nly about replacing the CDI. http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/156644-ATC200ES-CDI-Replacement-Sticky-Been-asked-a-lot-lately

[kb0nly]

I was just going to post that... LOL

DR ATV and Ebay are the best sources out there. The 3WW store has a lot of nice one off reproduction parts and some odds and ends people sell, don't get me wrong very useful and i have bought from there as well, but you have to look around to find everything.

[themdg]

Ugh, just typed a long reply, but hit the wrong button and it's gone! I guess that's what these newbie threads about for huh?

So... Success!

I put on the new coil, spark plug wire, CDI box, and battery and she fired right up. Huzzah! First time I've had it running since I put on a new air filter, carb and front endl. My old front end featured no front brakes, a stripped header bolt, and a long threaded rod with about 40 washers instead of an axle. I bought a whole new front fork from a guy and it's much nicer now. I'm suspecting that the coil, wire and battery were not strictly necessary, but it feels better to have them on there.

I left some mysterious tracks on my parents front lawn (in the snow) half a mile from my house as a test...no problems aside from needing to adjust the idle on the new carb.

Thanks to all for help and patience on my initiation thread. I can probably read the threads at the adult table now. :)