Honda 185s... Here we go again...

[Jonny Robertz]

So I just got the Honda running again after about a week and half of carb work, throttle adjustments, and general maintenance. About half a pull and she was humming along like a sewing machine. I took her out and around the neighborhood and everything was running like new. So then I decided to hit the trails. I made it in the woods about a mile and half and puttered out and died. I jumped off and to give her a pull and the rope broke and sucked up into the reel :mad:. Any idea where I should go from here. This thing is beginning to be a real headache!!! This probably the 12th time (literally) that I have had to replace the pull rope because it keeps breaking. I have heard that you can purchase mountain climbing rope in the same diameter that is much stronger. Does anyone know where I find this? Or does anyone have any idea what would make it quit mid ride like that? The other day I did notice, while working on the carb, that when I opened the fuel petcock no fuel entered the line. I opened the fuel cap on top of the tank and it flowed right in. Isn't there a breather type mechanism in the fuel cap? Could that be bad or be my whole problem? I went to take the cap off on the trail and try starting it but that's when the rope broke again... :mad:

[DohcBikes]

Yes the cap has a vent that must work properly or fuel will not flow. As for the pull rope, if you've broken 12 new ones, you may need to adjust your technique;)

Honda pull ropes are very strong, they are engineered that way. Chances are that you are pulling the rope out too far. Considering that your engine wasn't running the best, I assume the rope has been getting a workout. Make sure to check the pulley for anything that might be damaging the rope, and next time you put a new one on, be careful not to pull it too far out. It doesn't take a huge effort to start these, even if the decomp is closed. If it takes twenty pulls to start it, then you have some more tuning to do.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a rope that is as strong and flexible in the same diameter. Climbing rope, maybe. There are small flexible cables that may work also, but will likely eventually damage things.

Regardless, the stock rope is more than sufficient, if the engine is tuned and the proper technique is applied.

[El Camexican]

Yes the cap has a vent that must work properly or fuel will not flow. As for the pull rope, if you've broken 12 new ones, you may need to adjust your technique;)

All that and maybe a longer rope? Are you pulling it to the end? (very bad). Where are you getting them? My 30 year old Yamaha is on it's third rope and I didn't have the decomp hooked up most of its life.

Don't give on on your trike!

[King Trikester]

That fuel vent has got me before except mine was just in the off position. So yes that would stop fuel flow think of trying to empty a Jerry can with out the vent open, it flows for a bit then stops until it gets more air.

The pull cord issue could just be you forgetting the decompression lever? I'm not 100% sure if the 185's have one but I know that the 200's do and if I don't use it I either rip my shoulder out of its socket or break the cable.

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence if you already knew about the decompression lever but some people don't.
If your sitting on the seat it would be on the right side of the engine (top right of cylinder head) like I said it makes a huge Difference and it is there to aid in starting the engine.

[El Camexican]

That fuel vent has got me before except mine was just in the off position. So yes that would stop fuel flow think of trying to empty a Jerry can with out the vent open, it flows for a bit then stops until it gets more air.

The pull cord issue could just be you forgetting the decompression lever? I'm not 100% sure if the 185's have one but I know that the 200's do and if I don't use it I either rip my shoulder out of its socket or break the cable.

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence if you already knew about the decompression lever but some people don't.
If your sitting on the seat it would be on the right side of the engine (top right of cylinder head) like I said it makes a huge Difference and it is there to aid in starting the engine.

Still, 12 ropes??? If he's using the right rope I'm wondering if there isn't a nylon guide or something missing from the starter housing that is allowing the rope to get cut up? A 185S was the first trike I ever road, we were just little runts and we could start it with ease, so I can't see force being the issue.

[barnett468]

I jumped off and to give her a pull and the rope broke and sucked up into the reel :mad:.

This probably the 12th time that I have had to replace the pull rope because it keeps breaking.

I have heard that you can purchase mountain climbing rope in the same diameter that is much stronger. Does anyone know where I find this?
Exactly what rope are you using?

Original new Honda starter rope available in the link below. Try partzilla also.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc185s-1983-usa_model7174/rope-recoil-start_28407958004/


If yours is cloth or has a cloth center, most, if not all 100% nylon ones of the same diameter will be stronger. You can find a selection of these at Home Depot and Lowes etc. I would try to avoid the ones that "expand" a lot in the center when you "push" the rope together.


The link below contains a lot of comparison info for mountaineering chords/"ropes". They are often available at dedicated sporting goods stores like Big 5 Sporting Goods, REI, and Sports Chalet etc.

http://briangreen.net/2011/01/cord-weightstrengthcost-comparisons.html


550 parachord. This simply will not break in your application unless it gets damaged, however, you will need to inspect it to see if its diameter of 4 mm will work and if the end can be tied in small knot etc.

In addition to the link below and other online sources, this should also be available at Army and Navy Surplus stores and possibly sporting hoods stores.

http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.aspx/productId/12217/Sterling-Rope-Military-Spec-550-Parachute-Cord/?gclid=CK2_mobK-rsCFUho7Aod8FsAkQ

[barnett468]

Post addition.

Some are also available on ebay. Check mountain climbing and mountaineering.


I have no edit button.

[Larry T Moore]

last pull rope bike I had was an 85 200s...when the rope broke I replaced it with thin steel cable...sold the bike years ago and the guy who has it is still running it with the cable in it

[El Camexican]

last pull rope bike I had was an 85 200s...when the rope broke I replaced it with thin steel cable...sold the bike years ago and the guy who has it is still running it with the cable in it

I recall a couple guys that had them on sleds, but I seem to remember them being hard on the housings. How did you knot it?

[Larry T Moore]

I recall a couple guys that had them on sleds, but I seem to remember them being hard on the housings. How did you knot it?

they sell a thing that looks like a fishing sinker for them...there is also a kit made for mowers that has a steel cable too...JC whitney had them last I seen

[Jonny Robertz]

I was using the original Honda rope but my buddy who is about 6'5" jerked it right out of the reel on his 2nd pull. Then I went through a series of ropes. Yesterday when it broke, I was on the second pull, so it's not like I pulled it 20 times or even to the end. It broke about half way down the rope. There was about 6ft on the reel. When it broke there was still about 2 to 3 wrapped around the reel. I just replaced with a with a thin steel cable with a vinyl coating on it. It is is usually very easy to start when it wants to. When I started yesterday to take out for a test ride down the street it took about half a light pull and fired right up. So now I think I have the pull cord dealt with. One issue down and one to go. On to the fuel portion... I'm leaning toward the fuel cap not venting properly and creating a vacuum type situation and not allowing fuel to flow freely. I don't think it's the carb because this is a brand new part. I don't think I pulled trash into the carb either because I have small fuel filter in between the fuel petcock and the carb. I am open to suggestions on this issue... Cap? or something else completely? Is there a gasket in the cap that could be worn or brittle that needs to be replaced? I am not really sure if this bike has a decompression lever or not, I will need to consult my manual on that one... Also, I appreciate the links to the ropes because down the road I may very well end up replacing this part especially if the cable could do damage over time. Thanks everybody!

[barnett468]

Hello Jonny;




I appreciate the links to the ropes because down the road I may very well end up replacing this part especially if the cable could do damage over time.You're welcome!





I was using the original Honda rope but my buddy who is about 6'5" jerked it right out of the reel on his 2nd pull. Then I went through a series of ropes.Were these orig honda ropes in a honda package or "replacement" ropes sold by aftermarket companies etc?

Does your engine have more compression than stock?





When I started yesterday to take out for a test ride down the street it took about half a light pull and fired right up.

I took her out and around the neighborhood and everything was running like new. So then I decided to hit the trails. I made it in the woods about a mile and half and puttered out and died. I jumped off and to give her a pull and the rope broke and sucked up into the reel

On to the fuel portion... I'm leaning toward the fuel cap not venting properly and creating a vacuum type situation and not allowing fuel to flow freely.

The other day I did notice, while working on the carb, that when I opened the fuel petcock no fuel entered the line. I opened the fuel cap on top of the tank and it flowed right in. Isn't there a breather type mechanism in the fuel cap? Could that be bad or be my whole problem?

I have small fuel filter in between the fuel petcock and the carb.

Any idea where I should go from here.


A couple suggestions are:

remove petcock and clean filters if they are dirty.

look inside fuel line nipple to see it it is partially obstructed with gunk.

insure the vent to the fuel bowl on the carb is not plugged.

if fuel filter is not clear then install a clear one.

if it happens again look at fuel filter before loosening the cap to see if there is gas in.

if filter has gas it should start.

either way, loosen cap as you had planned and try to start again.

[Jonny Robertz]

Okay, so as I said yesterday, I installed the new cable pull starter. It was too late last night to fire her up so I waited until today. Half choke, half pull and she started right up. Running perfect. I let her idle about 10 minutes as I eased the choke off. Then I took it up and down the street, through all gears, and she ran like a dream... For about 10 minutes. Then she started sputtering and the ride got really jerky in all gears like I was just powering down. I limped back to the house and she shut off right at the end of my driveway. I pushed it in the garage, opened the tank to see if I could hear a vacuum break (no), and let it sit about 5 minutes. Then, once again, half a pull, no choke this time, and she started right up. Ran perfect for about 8 to 10 minutes and shut off. What the hell is going on with this thing????

[Jonny Robertz]

barnett468,

remove petcock and clean filters if they are dirty. I might be wrong but I don't think there are filters in this petcock. My 250sx has filters but I don't think this does.

look inside fuel line nipple to see it it is partially obstructed with gunk. Looked inside, looks clear.

insure the vent to the fuel bowl on the carb is not plugged. Vent looks clear.

if fuel filter is not clear then install a clear one. Fuel filter is clean as a whistle.

if it happens again look at fuel filter before loosening the cap to see if there is gas in Fuel filter and line (clear hose) have fuel in them before loosening cap.

I am running out of ideas here...

[DohcBikes]

From what I've seen Barnett is very diligent with his assistance, so I think if you keep following his advice he will likely lead you to the cause/fix, so keep trying, you'll get there.

I was thinking this might help get closer to the cause, maybe not but its just a thought,

When you start it cold, does it always take the approximately the same amount of time to die out?

If it is really random, I think this might point to a fuel blockage of some sort.

If it always takes the same amount of time to start acting up, I think it might point to things like flooding/hot cdi/fuel venting/ etc.

If it runs really good for short periods of time you are probably not too far from having it right...
Keep us informed and Good Luck!

[barnett468]

Hi;


The possibility of it being electrical as suggested by dohc, is an xlnt one, however, in my experience, if an electrical part fails from heat, it typically takes longer than 10 minutes to cool down enough on a hot bike to work again.

It will also commonly fail much sooner than it did when the bike was cold simply because it is now warmed much closer to the temp it fails at.

This being said, never say never, lol.



I would do the following.

1. Check the filter and tank/fuel for debris. Debris/fine sediment can occasionally build up around the filter while running and then fall away on its own when the engine stops.

It is supposed to have a filter on the petcock as shown in the link below. It is available through the link or partzilla.com.

Fuel filter p/n, 16952-GB2-721

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc185s-1983-usa_model7174/screen-fuel-strai_16952gb2721/

If you know for sure your petcock is missing the filter and there is no sediment in the clear filter, I do not think this is the cause of your problem.


2. If that does not fix it, then the next time it dies, simply loosen the cap and try to start it after around 10 seconds. If it starts, it will have virtually eliminated the possibility of it being electrical because the parts are still hot. This would also mean the it is most likely a venting prob which can be cured with another good cap. You can also try to clean yours.

Loosening the cap was previously suggested by another, however, allowing it to sit 10 minutes, allows things other than venting to change, therefore possibly rendering your cap vent test inconclusive.


3. If none of the above fixes it, I would then believe it is most likely electrical.

Get a new plug, lay it on the head firmly and look at the spark.

Ride the bike. If it stays running, your plug was faulty, if it dies, remove the plug, lay it on the head and compare the spark to what it was when the bike was cold.

If it is noticeably weaker once hot, you have an electrical problem which may or may not be the cause of the prob.


4. Get a 10" piece of clear plastic tubing

connect it to the fuel drain fitting on the bottom of the carb

hold the open end next to the carb and even with the top of the carb.

open the petcock and bowl drain screw.

the fuel should fill the tube from just even with the bottom of the carb body to around 3/16" below the carb body. [close screw and petcock]

if it is much different than that then correct the float level and recheck with plastic tube. [close screw and petcock]

once level is properly set, close bowl screw, drain gas from tube and tape tube to carb.

ride bike. if it dies again simply immediately open the bowl drain screw and check gas level again. if it is the same, it is likely not a fuel level prob which would suggest to me that it is electrical.



If it is electrical, good luck. there are different approaches and things to try. Below are a couple.

1. Check voltage of coils in stator both cold and hot

2. Spray computer duster/cleaner on the cdi immediately after it dies to cool it, then see if it restarts. If duster is not coming out very cold, simply turn the can upside down. Be careful not to create a frost. I found a bad cdi on a yamaha doing something similar recently.

It's actually very difficult to get a CDI cold enough to damage it.

3. Buy a cheap chinese coil and try it.

4. Hope that KBONLY or another electrical whiz shows up. You might send him a pm.

[czac]

when I bought my Yamaha it would fire right up with the pull start (electronic starter was dead) it would idle great, it would rev great when you throttled it... but... when I would try and ride it, it would stall out. the thing was, after it stalled or even if I shut it down, it would not start up until the next day or at least a few hrs. I thought it was electrical... know what it was? The brand new carb the previous owner put on it! the jets were wrong. On a whim, I took the jets out of my old carb (thank god he gave it to me with the trike) and put them into the new carb (both Mikuni's) and it fired up and runs great now! So, the lesson learned? never rule out even the strangest possibility!

[Jonny Robertz]

Yes it always starts easily and runs perfectly for about 10 minutes at a time. So I do think I'm moving in the right direction and getting closer.

[wisconsinite]

Have you checked the float level? You could check tank venting by disconecting the fuel line from the carb and running it to a pail. Watch the fuel flow, it should run steady. If it starts to slow or "chug", your cap is not venting.

[danbur55]

certainly don't claim to know 3wheelers as i'm just getting into some of this stuff, but a couple thoughts, every petcock I've dealt with have screens more than filters and can cause havoc if stuff floats around and sucks in. 2nd can you rule out an issue of heat causing vapor lock, electrical issues? just passing along ideas outside the box. good luck

[MNhondaguy]

Czac might be on the right track. You said you had gotten a new carb? Was it a keihin or mik, not ure what's oem... Or was it a Chinese aftermarket one? I have read and have experience that the china ones have funky jets sometimes. To be sure, simply buy keihin or mik jets that are correct and install them.

Just a thought.

[barnett468]

What color is your plug?

white.

lite tan.

dark tan.

almost black


how old is it?

[dougspcs]

CDI module breaking down as it heats up..not uncommon.

Perform the test on it listed in the manual the moment it stops..or buy a replacement/borrow the CDI from a buddies trikes to test.

[Jonny Robertz]

Okay, so I had her running this afternoon. Just let her idle for while because I had so minor repairs to make. She fired right up on about a half a pull, ran a little sputtery until warmed up and then was fine. I then shut her off and let her sit for few hours while I was working on another project. Went to start again and nothing... I don't want to rip the pull start out, but it was extremely difficult to pull and didn't even sound close to wanting to start. Also, each time I pulled the rope I heard a sound like air escaping. It was a short psshhht sound and sounded like it was coming from the where the exhaust connects. Any ideas? I have consulted the manual and internet. I cannot tell if there is a decompression lever on this model or not. Where should I look?
184632184633

[webbch]

See that lever up by the spark plug...It appears to be at the 5 o'clock position...the one that's not connected to anything...that's your decompression lever. It's not being used. I'm guessing there's a rectangular cutout on the pull starter - that's where the decompression cable (looks like a brake cable) exits the pull starter. Your carburetor's drain hose is currently routed using the decompression cable's routing hook in the pic of the left side.

Inside the head, the decompression lever activates the exhaust valve when you turn the lever - just like the cam does. So it's not a separate valve that you need to worry about leaking. Pull it back the next time you try to start it - if that makes it much easier to pull the rope, then cylinder pressure is the reason why it's difficult to pull (which would be good to measure BTW). If not, I'd be a little more concerned as to why it's difficult to turn over.

[Jonny Robertz]

webbch

So, I should put it in the upright position so the lever end is pointed up toward the gas tank in the 12 o'clock postion and try starting it?

Thanks for the input!

[cap]

When you go to pull the rope always take the slack out until it catches, then start your pull. Your rope will last much longer without that initial shock on it. (Old Ski-Doo trick).
It sounds like your running out of fuel, maybe the float as previously mentioned.

[zeeker1]

Here's a pic for the routing for the de-compression cable. Because you don't have one and the lever on the top is not being held in the proper position, You may be holding the exhaust valve open all the time (that puff of air). Also, I don't think you have the proper pull start. A lot of them will fit, BUT a lot of them were not made to use the decomp cable. It should have a hole and grommet in the top and a few extra parts inside to make it work.

184645

[barnett468]

it always starts easily and runs perfectly for about 10 minutes at a time.


Okay, so I had her running this afternoon. She fired right up on about a half a pull, ran a little sputtery until warmed up and then was fine. Just let her idle for while…

I then shut her off and let her sit for few hours… Went to start again and nothing...

it was extremely difficult to pull and didn't even sound close to wanting to start. Also, each time I pulled the rope I heard a sound like air escaping. It was a short psshhht sound and sounded like it was coming from the where the exhaust connects. Any ideas? I have consulted the manual and internet. I cannot tell if there is a decompression lever on this model or not.


PSSHHHT SOUND

Did it make this noise before, or is it a new sound?

As was suggested, it might be your compression release open slightly, however this should make it easier to start providing there is no other problem.

Make sure your spark plug did not loosen up.

You can take a 2' long piece of 3/16" - 1/4" rubber hose and put one end in your ear and use the other as a stethoscope to listen for the noise while someone pulls the starter.



HARD STARTING AFTER SITTING BRIEFLY

Could be water in the gas, especially if you use corn gas.

Could be vapor lock especially if you use corn gas.

Could be flooding due to high of a float level or leaking needle and seat.

Could be the timing advance unit stuck open. Check if for proper function.

Did you leave the gas on?

Do you leave the gas on when you let it sit overnight?

You can do the following if you want:

Open drain screw on carb and drain gas from bowl into a narrow clear glass. If it has water it will be visible as a clear bubble on the bottom beneath the gas.

Visually check the intensity of the plug spark. If the spark os weak I would check the items mentioned in post 16.


From post 16.

4. Get a 10" piece of clear plastic tubing

connect it to the fuel drain fitting on the bottom of the carb

hold the open end next to the carb and even with the top of the carb.

open the petcock and bowl drain screw.

the fuel should fill the tube from just even with the bottom of the carb body to around 3/16" below the carb body. [close screw and petcock]

if it is much different than that then correct the float level and recheck with plastic tube. [close screw and petcock]

once level is properly set, close bowl screw, drain gas from tube and tape tube to carb.

ride bike. if it dies again simply immediately open the bowl drain screw and check gas level again. if it is the same, it is likely not a fuel level prob which would suggest to me that it is electrical.

[barnett468]

Okay, so I had her running this afternoon. She fired right up on about a half a pull, ran a little sputtery until warmed up and then was fine.What do you mean exactly?

how cold was it where you started it?

how much choke did you use?

how much throttle did you use?

how long was it on choke before you removed the choke?

did it sputter with choke on or off?

[Jonny Robertz]

how cold was it where you started it? It had been sitting for about 4 or 5 days

how much choke did you use? half choke

how much throttle did you use? bumped the throttle a few times to get the gas flowing

how long was it on choke before you removed the choke? Maybe 1 to 2 minutes

did it sputter with choke on or off? Once the choke was off it idled normally

BUT, then I came back a few hours later, she was very hard to pull, made the psshht sound, and did not sound like it wanted to start AT ALL.

[Jonny Robertz]

This pshhht sound is new... Yes I always leave the gas on. I will definitely try the above test with tube and carb! Thank you!

[Jonny Robertz]

zeeker1,

Thank you so much for posting the pix of how the decompression valve set up should look! I really appreciate it!

[El Camexican]

Some day when they invent 3D gloves and virtual garages so that we can work on each other’s trikes from thousands of miles away this stuff is going to be a lot easier to help people with.

It drives me nuts when something like what you are going through could likely be diagnosed and repaired by many of us in just a few minutes. Oh well, stick with it and you’ll get it fixed and be the wiser for the experience.

By the way (and someone else may have already suggested this) have you connected a fuel line to your petcock and just let it flow back into a fuel jug for 15 minutes to see if the flow stops or diminishes at any point?

[Jonny Robertz]

I did actually. I drained the entire tank true a strainer, just to see if the flow was normal and to see if any debris was coming out of the tank and possibly plugging the carb. It came out very clean with a good even flow.