Wet or dry stator?

[hondadude6969]

I have an 85 250sx and I have oil in the stator side of the engine. I looked high and low and nobody seems to be 100% on weather it should be wet or dry. Same seems to apply to all atc, nobody is 100%. Is there a FACT based list for all atc that confirms either wet or dry undoubtedly??? I need to know for mine and lots of other confused folks need to know for their models as well because nobody wants to split the cases and find out there is no oil seal to begin with and vise versa. Thanks!

[barnett468]

if it is supposed to have oil in it you will see a small hole [oil passage] in the case at the bottom that allows oil from the gearbox into that area.

[dougspcs]

Answer..no. It should be dry..

If there is oil in there then you have a bad seal.

[wonderboy]

Hey Doug, on the 250SX are you sure?

For sure, the 350x has a dry stator. I'm looking at the cover right now and see how the cover completely seals the area containing the flywheel / stator all the way around.

However, I don't have a 250SX cover loose so I was looking through the manual at the pictures. It looks like there is a baffle of sorts, but it isn't completely sealed off from the remaining areas under the left side cover such as the gear shift linkage. It also looks like the starter one-way clutch is on the backside of the flywheel, which I'm guessing needs oil. For sure, I've never been under the left cover of my SX, so I'm just going by the pictures in the book... I apologize if this is wrong, but I thought it warranted a second thought.

[El Camexican]

I must be bored. I looked up the fiche and at a glance I don’t see a distinct hole where oil would get in there, but that said the one way starter ring gear is mounted on the flywheel and it rides on needle bearings. I don’t recall ever seeing a set of starter gears or needle bearings on a bike that didn’t get an oil bath, so I hope someone that knows these engines can clear this up for you. I vote for wet too, but don’t take my word for it.

[dougspcs]

I must be bored. I looked up the fiche and at a glance I don’t see a distinct hole where oil would get in there, but that said the one way starter ring gear is mounted on the flywheel and it rides on needle bearings. I don’t recall ever seeing a set of starter gears or needle bearings on a bike that didn’t get an oil bath, so I hope someone that knows these engines can clear this up for you. I vote for wet too, but don’t take my word for it.

You may have a point guys, it's been a while and a few engine repairs since I've gone into that side of the SX/ES motor..

My memory could be faulty, might be thinking 350x!!

[El Camexican]

You may have a point guys, it's been a while and a few engine repairs since I've gone into that side of the SX/ES motor..

My memory could be faulty, might be thinking 350x!!

Too bad no one on this site has a 250SX:lol: Anyone know how to move this to Trikeslvania?

[barnett468]

The 85 250sx has an oil bath stator 100% guaranteed.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1985-usa_model967/partslist/E++08.html#results

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1985-usa_model967/partslist/E++11.html#results

[DohcBikes]

Damnit Barnett I was just gonna post that

[barnett468]

nobody wants to split the cases and find out there is no oil seal to begin with and vise versa. Thanks!Parts fiche says no oil seal on left crank bearing and bearing has no seal.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1985-usa_model967/partslist/E++12.html#results

[barnett468]

Damnit Barnett I was just gonna post thatSorry DohcBikes, don't despair, you can still recommend what oil you think is best for him to use based on his elevation, outdoor temp, air density and astrology sign since he'll likely need some after taking the cover off of his oil bath stator.

[DohcBikes]

Sorry DohcBikes, don't despair, you can still recommend what oil you think is best for him to use based on his elevation, outdoor temp, air density and astrology sign since he'll likely need some after taking the cover off of his oil bath stator.

Hello hondadude6969,

I actually wasn't going to mention any recommendations for oil, but since my friend barnett seems to be interested in the information I have to provide on the subject, and the fact is it will likely need to be considered by you in the near future, I will give just a few recommendations to consider on this matter.

My apologies for the long sentence, but i'm running low on periods, and will soon run out if i don't use them sparingly.
Unlike barnett, i do still have plenty of commas left though, so perhaps I should loan him some of mine.:beer

I prefer using oils designed for wet clutch engines which also has high levels of ZDDP in them.

ZDDP is one of the best, if not the best anti wear agent known when it comes to protecting an engines moving parts. Levels of between approximately 1100 ppm and 1400 ppm have been determined to be optimal. Most oils that contain “high” levels of ZDDP like those mentioned below, typically say so on the bottle, and also typically state what the level is.

All Valvoline Motorcycle and ATV oils are designed for use in motorcycles with wet clutches, have high levels of ZDDP, and are typically available at many automotive parts supply stores.

From Valvoline.

• Protect Wet Clutch - Optimal frictional characteristics for maximum power transfer, smooth shifting and proper protection of the wet clutch.

• Minimize Wear - Increased anti-wear agents (zinc and phosphorous) help minimize wear from metal-to-metal contact.


The test in the link below is a test of various oils anti wear capabilities. It is not the only test that is done on oils but it is extremely telling of the vast differences in anti wear properties between some. All the oils in the test are either semi [blend] or full synthetic.

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf

Quote from test regarding MOBIL 1.

“It was outperformed by oils half the price and even by its semi-synthetic stablemate.”

I also prefer using a multi viscosity oil like 10w-30 or 10-40 when operating the vehicle in temperatures averaging around 40 degreeas or less. Using lighter oils in colder climates is also suggested in several ATV owners and/or service manuals.

NOT FOR REPRINT:D

:crazy::Bounce:crazy::Bounce:crazy::Bounce:crazy:: Bounce:crazy::Bounce:crazy:

[wonderboy]

...might be thinking 350x!!

Hey Doug, you are correct on the 350X. It is definitely dry.

[DohcBikes]

Actually, after reading the Honda service manual, I believe Doug is correct, its a dry stator.

Honda's removal procedure for a wet side engine cover will always include "drain the oil" as a step. Left side SX does does not include this step.

Furthermore, it DOES include "check the oil seal for damage" in the procedure.

According to page 9-6 of the Honda Service Manual, we were wrong, Doug was right:beer, and the mystery is finally solved......right?

[barnett468]

Actually, after reading the Honda service manual, What page and what is the date of the manual?




I believe Doug is correct, its a dry stator.Nope.

The 85 250sx has an oil bath stator 100% guaranteed.




Honda's removal procedure for a wet side engine cover will always include "drain the oil" as a stepIt "should". I did not look for this comment since it is irrelevant. I have seen many errors in orig manuals. One Yamaha manual I looked at recently had 3 errors in around just 8 short lines of text, lol.




Furthermore, it DOES include "check the oil seal for damage" in the procedure.What page?

Is this the same manual you are referring to above?




According to page 9-6 of the Honda Service Manual, we were wrong,Not according to the original service manual in the link below dated July 1986 or all the original parts fiches I posted links to.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/honda/atc250sx_85-87_servicemanual.pdf




Doug was rightNope again. See reply above.




and the mystery is finally solved......right?Yup, it was definitively solved in post #8.


The word “seal” does not appear on page 9-6 of the original manual in the link below.

If you look at page 9-8 you can see there is no seal on the crank bearing.

If you look at page 9-10 you can clearly see the shift drum bearing which has no seal.

If you look at the left case in the link I provided earlier, you can see there is not enough depth for a seal in the case.

If you look at the bearing in the link I provided earlier you can see there is no seal. Also, In my experience, ALL bearings with seals/shields have a suffix that denotes if it has a seal on one side or both and whether the seal is a metal shield or rubber seal. This applies universally to every bearing I am aware of. The original Honda part number does not have a suffix, therefore it has no shield.


ORIG JULY 1986 PARTS MANUAL FREE DOWNLOAD Might take up to 7 minutes to download.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/honda/atc250sx_85-87_servicemanual.pdf


The link below shows a few seal/shield suffixes.

http://www.astbearings.com/bearing-closures.html



PS - Hey, great oil info by the way, do you mind if I copy it for my files and share it with others that might be interested in the subject?

:beer

[DohcBikes]

85-87 Honda 250sx service manual page 9-6

"Check the oil seal on the left crankcase cover for wear or damage. Replace if necessary."

Also, again, no mention of draining the oil.

Sure you can use my oil info, I guess:lol:

[DohcBikes]

When I look at the parts diagram, I would say its oil bath. But I'm not a parts guy I'm a mechanic. So just by reading the service manual I would say its supposed to be dry, otherwise they would tell my tiny mechanic brain to drain the oil first.

On a side note, it does tell me to drain the oil when taking the right cover off.

If the seal they are referring to is the shifter seal, and the only way oil is getting in to that cover is the unsealed crank bearing, then how is it getting back out?

I've read the service manual several times and I don't see anything that suggests there should be oil in there.... but I agree that if there is no crank seal then oil would get in there.

[barnett468]

When I look at the parts diagram, I would say its oil bath. But I'm not a parts guy I'm a mechanic. So just by reading the service manual I would say its supposed to be dry, otherwise they would tell my tiny mechanic brain to drain the oil first.

I've read the service manual several times and I don't see anything that suggests there should be oil in there.... but I agree that if there is no crank seal then oil would get in there.

On a side note, it does tell me to drain the oil when taking the right cover off.During your multiple reading of the manual, you might have noticed the pretty pictures it contains which I referred to in post 15. These are the ones you had to read around because they cover approximately 50% OF THE PAGE, lol.

After careful inspection of those pretty pictures, it will hopefully become obvious to you that there IS oil under that cover irregardless of any failure by Honda to mention it.

There are additional photos of the UNSEALED shift drum bearing and shift shaft boss in section 9.

You ARE correct that there are NO instructions stating the oil must be drained before removing the left side cover. Imo, this is because it’s not a perfect world, and therefore, contrary to some people’s belief, not everything Honda does is perfect either.

From post 15.

I have seen many errors in orig manuals. One Yamaha manual I looked at recently had 3 errors in around just 8 short lines of text, lol.






and the only way oil is getting in to that cover is the unsealed crank bearing, then how is it getting back out?

If you look at page 9-10 you can clearly see the shift drum bearing which has no seal.The shift drum bearing hole is the second lowest orifice in that section of the case. In addition to oil coming through the unsealed shift shaft bearing as was hopefully implied in post 15, it also comes in between the shift shaft and the unsealed shift shaft boss in the left side crank case.

There is no oil passage below the shift shaft and no drain on that case, therefore, the small area below the shift shaft boss is a “dead” area which oil will not drain from when draining the oil via the oil drain plug.





I agree that if there is no crank seal then oil would get in there.There are no seals in the left side crank case under that cover or on any of the bearings that go in there.



Here, have some nice cold beer.

:beer :Bounce

[barnett468]

POST CORRECTION


For post 15.

The word "seal"... should read, The words "crank seal"...


For post 18.

...unsealed shift shaft bearing... should read, ...unsealed shift drum bearing...


I have no edit button.

[dougspcs]

I have no edit button.

Oh yeah BTW Barnett, I saw your edit button last night while cruising the threads..

I approached slowly, crouched and tried to coax him out of his hiding place.

I was hoping to catch him for you..

Anyway as I got my finger close to him, he suddenly startled and ran away.

Man he's skittish, you must have really abused him!!!

(Bah ha ha, I kill me sometimes..seriously man..all in good fun!!)

[DohcBikes]

You ARE correct


everything Honda does is perfect

Yup.....still workin'. :lol::w00t:

Oil bath it is.:beer

[barnett468]

Hello Hondadude6969;


If you need new, discontinued, original factory parts for ATV’s or Motorcycles, the place in the link below has one of the biggest inventories of them in the world.

http://cmsnl.com/





Oh yeah BTW Barnett, I saw your edit button last night while cruising the threads..

(Bah ha ha, I kill me sometimes..seriously man..all in good fun!!)No prob, I heard some members are forming a posse to try and round it up for me so they don’t have to look at any more of my ANNOYING post corrections. :lol:

They still have a bounty out for the guy that taught me how to do multiple quotes.





Originally Posted by barnett468

You ARE correct


everything Honda does is perfect

OMG, Please excuse me while I :drool: :drool: :drool:





Yup.....still workin'. :lol::w00t:If you’re referring to your edit button, let’s see how well it works when it’s in your…





Oil bath it is.:beerI have no reply/comments about bathing in oil because I was told this is a “Family friendy site”. :wondering





Actualy it was solved in post #4, but seeing as how you don't have an edit button I thought I'd correct that little typo for you:beerActually, it was in FACT solved in post 2, however, I had no intention of saying so until I saw the comment in this quote. The point being, my comment in post 2 should apply to every motorcycle in the world as far as I know. If there is no dedicated oil passage cast into the case but the oil can flow through the bearings etc. into the stator area as it does in this particular instance, it will have a "wet" stator.

From post 2.

if it is supposed to have oil in it you will see a small hole [oil passage] in the case at the bottom that allows oil from the gearbox into that area.

Although there is NOT a dedicated oil passage cast into the left side crank case, it is OBVIOUS that the oil flows into the side containing the stator from ALL the areas I mentioned in post 15 irregardless of what word one would want to use to refer to those pathways as.




Posts 4 and 5 were ALSO correct, and I thought they were both good [as if that matters, lol] however, imo, the authors were not 100% positive/confident about their answers as evidenced by part of their comments quoted below.


Hey Doug, on the 250SX are you sure?

For sure, the 350x has a dry stator. I'm looking at the cover right now and see how the cover completely seals the area containing the flywheel / stator all the way around.

It looks like there is a baffle of sorts, but it isn't completely sealed off from the remaining areas under the left side cover such as the gear shift linkage. It also looks like the starter one-way clutch is on the backside of the flywheel, which I'm guessing needs oil.

I'm just going by the pictures in the book... I apologize if this is wrong, but I thought it warranted a second thought.


I don’t recall ever seeing a set of starter gears or needle bearings on a bike that didn’t get an oil bath, so I hope someone that knows these engines can clear this up for you. I vote for wet too, but don’t take my word for it.




My understanding of Hondadude6969's [the op] post is that he wanted a definitive answer, not speculation/"gusses" irregardless of how intelligent/educated those speculations/"guesses" might be etc.


I have an 85 250sx and I have oil in the stator side of the engine. I looked high and low and nobody seems to be 100% on weather it should be wet or dry.

Is there a FACT based list for all atc that confirms either wet or dry undoubtedly???


I merely thought that since the authors of posts 4 and 5 did not seem to be 100% positive, as evidenced by their posts, I would determine the correct answer with certainty if I could, which I did in post 8.

Out of concern for the possible welfare of a few others on the site, I decided to make a simple, short statement, in post 8 instead of elaborating in what are now one of my famous/infamous, detailed [long winded] replies. :)

Then, to the possible misfortune of some, DohcBikes, who apparently did NOT get the memo, asked a question which seemed to be directed at me, which again, to the possible misfortune of some others, I then felt obliged to answer, lol.



Here, let’s do what some of us do best…Have more beer!

:beer :Bounce