View Full Version : looking for help with a 1988 honda atc250 big red
joe83hd
02-24-2014, 02:12 PM
I have a 1988 honda atc 250 big red that is hard to start with the electric start. It cranks over fine and seems to be cranking at a good speed every so often it will start right up the majority of the time it will not you have to crank it alot for it to start but if you kick start it, it fires off on the first kick and run very good. I have been over the carb, have checked the spark while cranking it over, have done a top end rebuild because it was a little low on compression, completely rebuilt the head laping the valves in and checking for a good seal, when you crank it with the electric starter for a while and pull the plug out it doesn't seem to be wet from gas and as you crank it i have held my hand over the carb and it doesn't seem to be creating any suction. Does anyone have any ideas on what else i can check or have had the same problem?
dougspcs
02-24-2014, 03:41 PM
Well my 1st thought, and not to get off topic too far..
You said 1988?? Is this verified? If so it's the only one I've ever heard of on this continent!! We only had the 85-87s here.
There have been some 88s verified to exist in Australia and the UK as well I believe..but not here.
Enquiring mind want to know!!
Now onto your symptoms..I know you've already tackled it but my 1st bet is carb.
Suggest you send it to a professional rebuilder (FlyingW)..it's be the last time you'll ever have to touch that carb.
joe83hd
02-24-2014, 08:05 PM
I have check the year it is a 1986. I feel pretty good about the carb because it will kick start on the first kick and runs great. This is the second one I have seen with these simptoms the first one had broken the starter gears and when I got the new oem gears one gear had one less tooth then the original and it seemed to crank slower but Honda said it shouldn't make a difference. the guy just kicked it and was ok with that. Just a little more back ground on me I have been working on atv's and small engines for 30 years and this is racking my brain. Not sure what to check next. To me if it is a carb problem wouldn't it show up while kick starting it?
atc007
02-24-2014, 08:25 PM
Recheck your valve clearance. Set it between .003 and .004
joe83hd
02-24-2014, 08:27 PM
I will triple check them
kebby28
02-24-2014, 08:36 PM
Are you sure its cranking as fast as its supposed to? Sometimes when a starter goes bad it will crank slower. This has happened to me. Put a new starter in it and realized the engine actually cranks allot faster. And the sound of the started can make it sound like the engine is turning plenty when its actually not.... just sayin
joe83hd
02-25-2014, 06:24 AM
Does anyone now what the cranking rpm should be for the electric starter, if so I can check that, I have an old manual rpm gauge that I could put on the end of the crank shaft while I try and start it.
dougspcs
02-25-2014, 08:16 AM
I have check the year it is a 1986. I feel pretty good about the carb because it will kick start on the first kick and runs great. This is the second one I have seen with these simptoms the first one had broken the starter gears and when I got the new oem gears one gear had one less tooth then the original and it seemed to crank slower but Honda said it shouldn't make a difference. the guy just kicked it and was ok with that. Just a little more back ground on me I have been working on atv's and small engines for 30 years and this is racking my brain. Not sure what to check next. To me if it is a carb problem wouldn't it show up while kick starting it?
You don't have to impress how long you've been working on ATVs, I'm just a guy whos had an aZZload of three wheelers over the years and had the same symptoms you are describing..isn't that what you are asking for and why you showed up here?
The only reason I'm trying to impress on you that possibility of carb is because I've had this very same condition last year on my brothers 250ES(plus a couple Yamaha's in the past)..started perfect on the kick and intermittantly on crank when cold, but once warm the kicker was the only way to get it going.
Nothing about the symptom made sense as with yours, a couple guys on here said 'clean the carb'..reluctantly I did. Problem solved..
Now it's a tricky carb to get dial in just right and though it fixed his problem it still have some carb bogg..so I sent it to FlyingW for rebuild, now it's perfect.
Too bad about the 88 thing..
joe83hd
02-25-2014, 11:17 AM
How can I get in touch with FlyingW? I will also check the starter and cables out tonight and recheck the valves.
barnett468
02-25-2014, 11:44 AM
Hello joe83hd;
I would check the things above, imo the problem is that it is too lean and/or it is not generating enough voltage [spark] with the starter for various reasons.
How much choke is required to start?
How much throttle?
What is the air temp when first starting it?
Does it start with the starter when it is warmed up?
Here’s just some options.
OLD GAS – dump it if it is 6 months old or looks yellow.
CORN GAS – Dump it if it is 3 months old.
Lay the plug on the head and look at it when using the starter then the kick starter. Let us know if there is a visible difference in the intensity of the spark and what the spark color is.
Get a volt meter that records [memorizes] peak voltages. Unplug the black wire with the red stripe or red band coming from the stator and check the voltage while running the starter, then while kicking it over.
Post the results. It should have a minimum of around 35 volts which is weak, 45 would be good.
Check the same wire for ohms. It should be between 100 and 400.
If the ohms are low the coil is likely weak. I would replace it.
If the ohms are high but the voltage is low then it is possible your ign flywheel has lost some magnetism.
Check the coil per manual but this doesn’t always tell much. Some people say theirs tested bad but worked fine, lol.
Wiring diagram. See 15-1 for electrical specs.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/content.php/201-ATC250ES-Big-Red
orig manual for 200es but it should help. might take 7 minutes to download.
http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/honda/1984_200es_bigred.pdf
CARB GAS LEVEL CHECK
I would check the actual gas level first by doing the following:
1. get a small 10” long piece of clear plastic tube.
2. connect it to the float bowl drain fitting.
3. hold it close to the carb with the open end even with the top of the carb.
4. open the gas valve on the tank and drain screw on the carb bowl.
5. the gas in the tube should be from even with the bottom of the main carb body to 3/16” below it. If it is outside this range, I would correct it.
hublake
02-25-2014, 11:56 AM
I have an 85 BR that I have the same problem with when it is cold. The starter doesn't seem to turn the motor over fast enough. I will remove the right side cover and give it a kick start a couple of time and it takes right off. I know 85s had a cold weather starting problem, but I found kick starting solved the problems and was cheap. Also try a new plug.
DohcBikes
02-25-2014, 12:37 PM
Recheck your valve clearance. Set it between .003 and .004^^^^ Don't skip this part.
joe83hd
02-25-2014, 04:39 PM
Once i go through and check all of your sugestions i'll get back to you with the resaults it may take me a couple of afternoons to check it all. Thanks for the sugestions.
dougspcs
02-25-2014, 06:34 PM
How can I get in touch with FlyingW? I will also check the starter and cables out tonight and recheck the valves.
Stand in the center of the room, click your heals together three times and repeat.."there's no carbs like Jim's, there's no carbs like Jim's, there's no carbs like Jim's"..this will most certainly summon him!!
But if that doesn't work you can do it the old fashion way..at the top of this page click 'Notifications', then 'Inbox' to open your mail. Click on 'Send New Message' and in the 'Recipient Users' box type 'FlyingW'..then type him a message and send..
tri again
02-25-2014, 10:24 PM
I have check the year it is a 1986. I feel pretty good about the carb because it will kick start on the first kick and runs great. This is the second one I have seen with these simptoms the first one had broken the starter gears and when I got the new oem gears one gear had one less tooth then the original and it seemed to crank slower but Honda said it shouldn't make a difference. the guy just kicked it and was ok with that. Just a little more back ground on me I have been working on atv's and small engines for 30 years and this is racking my brain. Not sure what to check next. To me if it is a carb problem wouldn't it show up while kick starting it?
I have THE exact problem.
Makes NO sense to me. If it was an old car, the starter can drag voltage, NOT speed, and pull juice from the ignition.
This is NOT the case as Honda has separate circuits for light and ignition.
aaaarrrrgh, just lost the rest of the story...
will start with 1/2 kick on compression stroke but not with 5 second FAST e spin.
New batt, new starter.
I'm with you my friend..makes no sense.
I recall that it WOULD e start when I let OFF the e starter if it was still spinning a little.
at the right time. say if I let the starter OFF on it's way to compression stroke.
now as I remember, I did NOthing and now it starts 1 second estart.
Probably just riding and jiggling cleared electrical connection?
I actually forgot it was a problem till your post.
wish I knew to be able to tell you.
If you do have carb suspicions, flying w is THE guru.
joe83hd
02-26-2014, 08:26 AM
Things that i checked last night, Garge temp 65, has new gas in it, Kick start no choke no throttle second kick starts and idles, electric start, no choke no throttle no start, half choke no throttle no start,full choke no throttle no start, and then tried the choke in all three postions with throttle at 1/4, 1/2, and full no start. checked valves they are .003 and .004, removed starter it looks to be new, disassembled cleaned and reinstalled no change in starting. I have replaced the spark plug a couple of times with no change, checked the spark at the plug with necked eye and it looks the same electric start and kicking it, i have also taken a short piece of clear hose that just fits over the plug wire removed the plug cap slide the hose over the wire then take a short piece of a plug wire striped it back a 1/4 inch and slide it in the other end of the clear hose leaving a 3/16 gap between the wires put the plug cap on and put it back on the plug so i can watch the spark under compression and while it runs. the spark looks a little weak to me but it does have a good blue color. I then checked the stator on the black/red wire it ohms out at 141 ohms, the voltage with the electric start was 33 volts and while kicking it the voltage was 36 volts, i plan on getting another meter just to confirm this. with this being said it's looking like it may be the flywheel, but if i take it apart to replace that i would do the stator at the same time. It doesn't look like these parts are avalible from honda and the stators can be found after market any suggestions about the flywheel? Thanks for the help.
barnett468
02-26-2014, 10:11 AM
HOLY CR_P DUDE, YOU KICKED A_S, XLNT JOB AND INFO, WOW!
STATOR OHMS – 141 is ok and in spec as you know. If you happen buy a new Chinese stator coil it might be more or might be less ohms but I heard they work.
VOLTAGE – I would like to see a little more but apparently these things start with that. I find it difficult to believe that a difference of only 3 volts can prevent it from starting with the electric starter unless it is only turning it over at around 50 rpm, lol. It does prove that it is turning over more slowly with the starter though. That obviously isn't helping.
SPARK - You have blue spark ALL the time but it is a weak blue. Seems to me it should still be enough.
CARB – It seems slightly rich imo which suggests to me that even if the engine turns over slightly slower when using the electric starter it should still suck enough fuel from the carb to start. This is why I asked you to do this.
NEW STARTER – Any Chinese markings on it?
Does it sound like it is turning it over fast enough?
I wonder if you can get it wound as a high torque starter which might spin a hair faster.
TESTS IF YOU WANT TO TRY
1. STARTING FLUID - Maybe spray some WD40 in the carb or plug hole and try the electric starter. If it does NOT start then clean the plug and try flammable brake cleaner or starting fluid. If it does NOT start the prob is likely NOT fuel related.
2. CHOKE - Put it on full choke, kick with throttle closed then open then look at plug to see if it is wet or bone dry.
3. PLUG GAP - Check the plug gap, if it is larger than .025” set it to that.
4. PLUG - Buy a “thin wire electrode” plug and gap it at .025”. Be very careful checking the gap. The electrode breaks easily.
5. STARTING RPM - Check what the rpm is while kicking and using the starter with a digital gauge if you have one.
6. COMPRESSION TEST - Do a compression test using the kicker and the starter with ignition off and throttle wide open.
7. BATTERY
a. Make sure it's fully charged.
b. Check it with a hydrometer.
c. Connect a high amp charger to it and try the electric starter. This has NO affect on the voltage to the coil but might spin the starter a bit more quickly. If it starts, I would buy the highest amp Japanese battery I can find and that might also cure your prob.
8. REMAGNETIZE FLYWHEEL - If you want to get your flywheel remagnetized, try the links below. Shouldn't cost much and shouldn't hurt.
http://www.scooterwest.com/item_details/Flywheel-Re-Magnetizing/4045
http://www.google.com/search?q=magnetizing+a+flywheel&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Ok I’m runnin real low on straws now. Oh, wait...I got it...just use the kick starter all the time.
joe83hd
02-26-2014, 10:39 AM
The starter has made in twian on it. It sounds like it is turning over good. I have put a small amount of gas in the plug hole then put the plug back in and tried the electric start with no luck. I have also givin it a small shot of starting fluid while i crank it with the electric starter with no luck. i have taken my hand and held it over the back of the carb checking for suction while cranking with the starter and it has suction and i get a hand full of gas. I have a old mechanical tach that i plan on check the cranking rpm with. The battery is new, and i have buy passed the battery with a 950 amp jump box straight to the starter with no change still cranks the same and won't start. I'll check the compression but i'm sure it will come out good the gentalmen that owns this ask me to do a top end rebuild because of this starting probelm and the compression was low, so i have bored it first over sized, laped the valves in check all clearances and still have the starting problem. I wish i could leave it as kick only but i don't thank the older gentalmen that owns it can kick it.
barnett468
02-26-2014, 11:18 AM
Ok, you are on top of it.
I meant a digital tach, will your mechanical tach read by kicking it over?
Does this have the different size starter gear you spoke of. If so what were the gear sizes and what are they now?
The slower the engine turns, the lower the compression will be up to a point, this is why I was curious.
A Taiwan starter is obviously not a great sign but I’m sure some of them start these bikes just fine. Since the stator puts out 3 volts less with the starter it obviously isn't turning it over quite fast enough.
If the starter would turn it over as fast as the kicker it will start. If you connect 24v to the starter it should turn over more quickly and start but the Taiwan starter might melt. If you could get the starter to be an 8 or 10 v one it would start it, lol.
An orig starter might be better or possibly get this one rewound as a last option. I have had many automotive starters turn over some engines too slowly no matter how many amps I gave them so I had them rewound as high torque starters and they turned the engine over faster.
I would still do the plug test and others even though your spark test showed spark under compression. The plug test is fast, easy, and FREE!
tri again
02-26-2014, 04:29 PM
The starter has made in twian on it. It sounds like it is turning over good. I have put a small amount of gas in the plug hole then put the plug back in and tried the electric start with no luck. I have also givin it a small shot of starting fluid while i crank it with the electric starter with no luck. i have taken my hand and held it over the back of the carb checking for suction while cranking with the starter and it has suction and i get a hand full of gas. I have a old mechanical tach that i plan on check the cranking rpm with. The battery is new, and i have buy passed the battery with a 950 amp jump box straight to the starter with no change still cranks the same and won't start. I'll check the compression but i'm sure it will come out good the gentalmen that owns this ask me to do a top end rebuild because of this starting probelm and the compression was low, so i have bored it first over sized, laped the valves in check all clearances and still have the starting problem. I wish i could leave it as kick only but i don't thank the older gentalmen that owns it can kick it.
Youse guys are my hero.
My 87 250es as posted before, did the same thing and I still have no idea why and / or why it decided to start working.
Kick start no prob, e start no go but sometimes would start when I let OFF the start button.
It was like that for, say, 40-50 times and then started working perfectly to the point I forgot all about it.
I'd guess it may have sat for a couple months before acting up, under cover outside.
Nipping the last tiny bit off the spark plug wire can give the plug cap fresh copper to bite into. Seen THAT fix psycho intermittent run issues. Fast and free to do.
Looking fwd to the real fix for sure.
joe83hd
02-27-2014, 10:44 AM
Unfortunally i had to work late last night and was unable to do any test. Hopefully i will get time tonight. I also plan on calling the owner and try and get more details on when this started to happening.
joe83hd
02-28-2014, 06:36 AM
Ok got some more test run last night, compression is 155psi with electric start and with the kicker, I used a small digital tach to check the cranking rpm's electric starter is cranking the motor at an average of 400 rpms and kick starter is an average of 100rpms. after that I put the tank back on and tried starting it again no luck with the electric starter but fired on first kick with kicker I let it run for a while and warm up. then shut it down and tried the electric start with no luck. after that I fired it back up with the kicker and checked out the charging system, and that doesn't seem to be right, the voltage is jumping all over the place while you run it. it will be 13.4 then 14.6 and 15.2 back to 14.6 it never stayed leveled out so with that happening i'm starting to think the stator is on the hairy edge. I have in the past seen the charging system affect the ignition system on some atv's.
barnett468
02-28-2014, 07:36 AM
Wow, ok, not good.
VOLTAGE ERRATIC – Imo this is NOT the stator because it is strictly a mechanical device, meaning there are no resistors or transistors etc. that can vary. You can check the stator output directly also, just like you did with the ign coil in the stator. I think you will find that the output is likely steady and that the erratic numbers you are seeing are after the regulator so the regulator or something else might be bad.
That fact that the voltage is always above the battery voltage suggests to me that nothing is grionding which is obviously a good thing.
I would insure the battery is good with a hydrometer and fully charged and check it again. I have seen erratic voltage several times in cars due to a bad regulator or battery.
It’s hard for me to believe it only does 100 rpm with the kicker.
If in fact it does turn over faster with the starter then the starter is eating 3 volts from the ignition coil in the stator and this loss is enough to prevent the bike from starting even though you have blue spark under compression while using the starter.
Since it kick starts after using the starter it is NOT flooding.
Since it does not start using the starter with starting fluid even though it spins than the with the kicker, it dies suggest it is electrical related.
When you jumped the starter with the jump box, was it after the solenoid?
If not, I might disconnect the battery and kick start it. If it kick starts, this suggests the ign system is not connected in any way to the charging system.
If this is the case, I would leave it disconnected, disconnect the starter positive wire from the solenoid and jump the starter it has to start, there is no option according to your test results.
If it does than I would connect the starter wire to the solenoid and disconnect the power wire and start wires to the solenoid, if it does not start, the solenoid is the prob, if it does then the prob is further up the line.
Reconnect the solenoid, disconnect the stator charging wires and try it again. If it does start but the stator output from the test above is NOT erratic the prob is NOT the stator and is between the stator and the starter solenoid.
danbur55
02-28-2014, 07:47 AM
what would happen if you unplug rect/reg? then try to e start
joe83hd
02-28-2014, 08:45 AM
I did try unplugging the regulator and starting it and it would not electric start. i have seen ones in the past that would not have spark at the plug while you where cranking it and when you let off of the starter button it would fire and the regulator was bad. When i used the jump box i went straight to the starter. i will try it with the battery disconnected. I also plan on checking the rpm with the mechanical tach. The other thing i plan on doing is running another ground wire just for the heck of it.
barnett468
02-28-2014, 09:10 AM
I did try unplugging the regulator and starting it and it would not electric start.Of course it won’t, that’s because you unplugged that part of the electrical system when you did that, lol.
i have seen ones in the past that would not have spark at the plug while you where cranking it and when you let off of the starter button it would fire and the regulator was bad.Yes but you said you DO have spark at the plug when using the electric start.
When i used the jump box i went straight to the starter. i will try it with the battery disconnected.if you do it the way I suggest it should start as I mentioned. If it does not then use your clear plastic tube spark checker to see if it is getting spark.
joe83hd
02-28-2014, 11:13 AM
They will run with the voltage regulator unpluged and they electric start will start them, i have done this in the past during trouble shooting. With the jump box test i had the clear tube in the plug wire and it had spark at the plug. Nothing is making any sense it should run. The other comment was just put out there becuase i have seen where some people are having that problem and that it makes me think the regulator maybe functioning correct, sorry for the confusion.
barnett468
02-28-2014, 11:59 AM
well after the other tests it should hpofully locate the prob. i think your prob is one of the most mysterious i have seen.
one person mounted his cdi next to his tailpie and when the pipe heated the box it would run bad. he did not tell us that until post 100 after i told him several times his cdi must be getting hot, lol.
another guys bike idled ok but ran bad, after 100 posts he found his muffler was plugged after being told earlier to check it.
but he s the most
joe83hd
03-01-2014, 05:08 PM
I have found a 1986 trx250 fourtrak that a friend has comparing the electrical componets on oem Honda parts they are the same so my plan know is to get it from him and do some parts swaping to see if I get any results. I talked with the owner of this 3wheeler and the original starter got burnt up while trying to start it. and he has told me that when he brought the bike the stator went bad on the charging circuit and they could not find one at the time and it was sent away and rewound, that was several years ago.
joe83hd
03-08-2014, 06:33 PM
So the weather has finally gotten better and I was able to go get the 86 trx 250 fourtrax and start doing some parts swapping. First I changed the starters out and compared the starter gears, the gears where the same and the starter made no difference. So next I tried the CDI box with no difference and then I swapped out the stators and the three wheeler starts perfect with the electric start and the 4wheeler wont start with the electric start. I double check the readings on the stator and had a second person check it also the readings are with in spec and the only difference is that kicking it you 3 more volts output then when you electric start it. I hope this will help some others that maybe having similar problems. Thanks to everyone that helped out here.
barnett468
03-08-2014, 07:05 PM
Wow, great that it starts using the electric starter, and you did an exemplary job of testing, however, before a more definitive conclusion can be drawn, we would need the following current readings from the trx stator and starter:
1. voltage using kick starter
2. voltage using electric starter.
3. ohms of ign portion of stator.
4. rpm of engine using electric starter.
You had 36 using the kicker before and 33 using the starter which it would not start with, therefore, If you have 33 volts or less with the trx stator using either the kicker or the electric starter, and it starts, then obviously the mystery has not been solved.
joe83hd
03-14-2014, 11:12 AM
sorry just getting back in. I have already taken them back apart but i could slip the trx stator back on and take some readings, kick start reading maybe hard to get i have the bike jacked up on the side so i didn't loose oil. I will check the others out and get back to you. I do have a question about the stators i see that they are no longer avaliable from Honda and that they have two different ones listed, and ricks make a replacement but the outside is 103mm and mine is smaller so which one do i have and how would i tell if i'm getting the right one? also could i change the flywheel and use the bigger one from ricks? What else would need to be changed?
joe83hd
03-14-2014, 01:23 PM
ok so i have looked parts up on honda site and everything has the same part numbers other then the 2 different types of stator one is a denso the other is a mitsuba how do i tell which one i have? i'm thinking about getting the flywheel that will match the stator that is avaliable from ricks hoping that this maybe an upgrade but i have a little more research to do on the wiring. If anyone has done this please let me know.
joe83hd
03-14-2014, 06:38 PM
Ok I just put the trx stator back on and this is what I got black/red wire 326ohms, peak voltage with electric starter and kicker average 70 volts and rpm with electric start was 400. I was very surprised at the voltage reading.
joe83hd
03-17-2014, 12:25 PM
After all the test i have done I decided that the stator is weak and i'm going to replace it. problem one is that this model stator is no longer avaliable it has the Mitsuba system on the bike right now and i don't really want to take the chance and buy a used one. Rick's motor sports has a stator for these atc but it is 103mm in diameter which is the other system that honda used during these years and it is the Nippon Denso brand, so i have ordered that stator and i have found a Denso flywheel and plan on changing the system over. All other parts should inter change looking at oem part numbers. Once i have this done i will leave feed back on how it all went.
joe83hd
03-22-2014, 07:16 PM
Here is the lastest update, I got the stator from rick's and yesterday I received the used flywheel. Installed them today and the three wheeler is alive with the electric start. So there is no problem converting over to the stator that is available and then finding the right flywheel to match the stator you just need to ask the seller the name that is on the flywheel it should have ND stamped on it and you will have the right one.
tri again
03-22-2014, 10:46 PM
VERY nicely done. Sure hope you get to hang around the world of trikes.
Here is the lastest update, I got the stator from rick's and yesterday I received the used flywheel. Installed them today and the three wheeler is alive with the electric start. So there is no problem converting over to the stator that is available and then finding the right flywheel to match the stator you just need to ask the seller the name that is on the flywheel it should have ND stamped on it and you will have the right one.
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