PDA

View Full Version : Cam/Ignition timing issue



Birddog85
03-07-2014, 06:20 PM
I've been making progress on the X. But have one last hurdle.
In order to get it to run, idle and rev properly I have to clock the cdi pickup way past where it's supposed to be in a clockwise direction.

The PO says it's a stock cam and cam timing is dead on.
Attached is a pic of where the rotor is at. Unless this is an aftermarket cam and I don't know it im kinda lost here.188552

barnett468
03-07-2014, 08:34 PM
what happens when the F mark on the flywheel lines up in the window on the stator cover when checking it with the timing lite at idle?

line the mark with the timing lite and see.

if it runs bad then, most likely your flywheel is not on the crank in the proper position or the cam timing is off, check it per the manual instructions.

free online manuals below. click blue line on left for your manual when page appears. might take 5 minutes to 1 hour to load.t

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

rg97
03-07-2014, 09:05 PM
The flywheel would not be off unless he has a sheared key

DohcBikes
03-07-2014, 09:25 PM
The flywheel would not be off unless he has a sheared key Although VERY UNLIKELY, it happens. Also, if the p.o. is certain that the cam timing is correct, he may have rebuilt the engine. More than twice I have seen engines with no evidence of a key ever being installed.

Birddog85
03-08-2014, 03:07 AM
The flywheel is on key, cam timing is dead nuts but ignition is still off.
I found this on a search.

"The bike is very hard to start and when it does start the exhaust pipe glows bright red and will not stay running, Now this indicates to me that the timing is off. Seems to be firing late. I have check the "T" timing mark at the bottom and the cam little cirlce at the top are lined up."

My exact symptoms and the next quote makes me think I need to find another cam.

"the New cam I bought as well as others have bought are drilled wrong for the pulse rotor and it puts it 2 cam teeth off. Everyone use OEM for awhile because all current Manuf. are coming out with the wrong drilled point for the pin. If you set it 2 teeth forward it will run but you will end up burning a valve."

It's late and I'm sore as hell from kicking her over so tomorrow it is.

barnett468
03-08-2014, 02:52 PM
In order to get it to run, idle and rev properly I have to clock the cdi pickup way past where it's supposed to be in a clockwise direction.

It's late and I'm sore as hell from kicking her over so tomorrow it is.Hello Birddog85;


Why are you “sore as hell from kicking her over”? If it runs, idles and revs properly it should start easy theoretically.

What size is the engine ie., 200, 250, 350?


Ok, this should be fun and fairly easy. You can do the following if you want.

1. Rotate engine until it is on the compression stroke. You can feel this by placing your finger over the spark plug hole and rotating the crank. You can also do this by rotating the engine until the timing marks on the pickup and spark advancer line up.

2. Continue to rotate it until the F on the flywheel lines up properly in the hole in the stator cover.

3. Clean the mark off with a brake cleaner on a q tip, then using liquid white out place a line on the fire mark. Rotate engine clockwise until flywheel rotates around 1/4”. Clean and put 1 small dot. Rotate clockwise another 1/4” and put 2 small dots. Rotate counterclockwise until the F is properly in the window again.

4. By hand, make sure the advancer moves freely and returns to fully under its own power and that there is slight preload [tension] on it when it is in its static position. If it doesn’t then clean, grease and bend spring tabs as necessary.

5. Once it is working properly, post a photo of ign advancer from the same viewpoint but maybe closer up.

6. If the raised line on the pickup is to the right of the line on the advancer, your timing is advanced AND it is advanced too far. If it is to the left it is retarded. It should be lined up perfectly.

7. If you have enough adjustment, rotate the pick up until it lines up with the line on the spark advancer. Don’t worry about installing the cover yet.

8. Start engine and see how it runs.

9. Check timing with timing lite at idle and at around 2500 rpm’s. It should flash on the F at idle and near the 1 or 2 dots at 2500 rpm.

10. Take a photo of the advancer and post it. If everything is happy, proceed to the next step if you dare. If everything is NOT happy, you have additional unknown problems like jetting and/or a bad CDI etc..

11. Based on the photo of the advancer, we, or you, can GUESS [or sort of calculate if we are not too lazy] where to cut a new slot in your advancer for the pin. Have no fear, even if done poorly or in the wrong place it will NOT hurt your advancer.

12. Turn the advancer upside down and clean off the raised surface, then put some dykem or black felt pen mark on that surface.

13. Measure around 3/16” - 1/8” max, to the LEFT of the nearest edge of existing pin slot.

14. Take a ruler and a scribe or sewing needle etc. and mark a line.

15. Measure .118” to the left of that mark and make another line. This will be where your new pin slot goes. .118" is the thickness of the pin.

16. Take a Dremel tool and cut off blade and cut a new slot. It is better to cut it a hair small than a hair big. It can easily be widened. If it is a hair big then simply rotate the advancer clockwise until it stops on the pin and tighten the bolt. It will not slip.

17. Slam that puppy back together, line up timing marks on the pickup and advancer and you’re done.


ORIG SPARK ADV PHOTO FROM THE BACK SIDE.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc200x-1984-usa_model7182/advancer-spark_30220427164/


ORIG CAM PHOTO You can look at the photo and compare the location of the cam pin hole to the cam pin hole on your cam to see if there is an obvious difference.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc200x-1984-usa_model7182/cam-shaft_14101965000/



Here's my avatar. I named her Bacon, isn't she cute?

Hi, my name is Bacon, aren't I cute?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDheK_NT7A9cIdJnV_1Pg7lGbLDWNu5 AVQnY60FToKElt_Wip72n1nHA

barnett468
03-08-2014, 03:25 PM
The flywheel would not be off unless he has a sheared key

Although VERY UNLIKELY, it happens. Also, if the p.o. is certain that the cam timing is correct, he may have rebuilt the engine. More than twice I have seen engines with no evidence of a key ever being installed.


that doesnt mean I'm not willing to learn.
Although we appreciate your "attempt" to "educate" us, as DohcBikes has already shown, your statement is incorrect, therefore, l'll just add, if you work on things on a regular basis, the more unusual problems you are likely to see the more years you work on them. Since you are around 16 1/2, my guess is that you have a lot more things to see and learn.

In my many years of working on engines etc., I have seen SEVERAL sheared flywheel keys as well as SEVERAL flywheels with no keys even though they require one.

I try to use the motto “Never assume”.


Here's my avatar. I named her Bacon, isn't she cute?

Hi, my name is Bacon Aren't I cute?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDheK_NT7A9cIdJnV_1Pg7lGbLDWNu5 AVQnY60FToKElt_Wip72n1nHA

Birddog85
03-17-2014, 11:02 PM
I had enough toying around and pretty much went back to the beginning.
Reset cam timing, rough set ignition timing, install rebuilt carb with 40 slow and 120 high jets In place of the "mikuni" from ebay and behold!
She fires halfway through a kick cold and holds an idle.
I took a video but can't upload it via mobile.. She has a set of lungs on her. Neighbors could hear the idle and stopped by to let me know. :D

Thanks Barnett, DOHC and the board for the help.

Birddog85
03-18-2014, 12:45 AM
I think I figured out the video. My cabbage phone really doesn't do her justice though.

http://youtu.be/N0YDn1H8pzM

DohcBikes
03-18-2014, 01:43 AM
I had enough toying around and pretty much went back to the beginning.
Reset cam timing, rough set ignition timing, install rebuilt carb with 40 slow and 120 high jets In place of the "mikuni" from ebay and behold!
She fires halfway through a kick cold and holds an idle.
I took a video but can't upload it via mobile.. She has a set of lungs on her. Neighbors could hear the idle and stopped by to let me know. :D

Thanks Barnett, DOHC and the board for the help.Dude, you just made my day.

And no, thank you, for recognizing the people that are here trying to help.

Unfortunately, Barnett has been banned, so he won't be able to help all the people he has been helping here any longer.

When it gets too complicated, its best to start from the beginning.

If only some others here could understand that.....:beer