80% AR15 Lower... While on the gun subject...

[kb0nly]

After reading the previous post of doctors offices asking if guns were present it got me thinking to ask this here as well...

A buddy of mine bought one of those forged aluminum 80% AR15 lowers back in January. He still hasn't milled it out yet but got a drill jig with it and everything for $100, hes a die hard DIY guy like me and always wanted to build rather than buy his next rifle.

Anyone on here tried this? Looks pretty neat, i think i might go watch him work on it for the fun of it. I have built stripped lowers before with parts kits, kinda fun actually. But never went so far as to milling a lower!

From what i read online there isn't much to it, lots of youtube videos on the subject. Guys are building AR's with a 80% lower and a drill press... LOL... One guy claimed he can do one an hour, and i see talk of places doing build days with a rented CNC machine, etc.

Anyway, don't want to ruffle any feathers just curious. This guy has a full shop and builds just about everything you can imagine, might be a fun afternoon just watching the work be done. Reading through the laws on this the ATF doesn't consider it a firearm until the lower is 100% machined, so places are selling and shipping these 80% lowers through the mail! Crazy! And then you buy a LPK and a complete upper and your done. Now that sounds like fun.

[DohcBikes]

Hmmmmm.....I have a drill press.

That's my opinion on that one:beer

[kb0nly]

LOL!!!

The least the government would worry about is a parts built AR if they wanted to take guns from all of my family. I would like to see this done in person, blows my mind that you can buy a lower now that anyone can complete in an afternoon with basic tools. There is a guy on YouTube with a video of him machining a 80% lower with a porter cable router and an end mill bit along with a jig that has a guide plate on the top. The video was about 35 mins and he only skipped a very short bit of the filming, so i would guess in well less than an hour if you have the right tools to make it work.

This is the kind of stuff i love, building your own stuff!

[Scootertrash]

Yup, buying and building on an 80% lower is totally legal in most states, at least according to the BATF, Annnnd, IIRC, you don't even need to put a serial number on it if you aren't going to sell it. Watch the anti gunners heads esplode once they figure that out!!

I haven't gone the 80% route yet, but have assembled my own ARs from parts.

[trike savior]

thanks guys I had never heard of this before and am now super intrigued. I watched this guys video on you tube. he shows how to do it with cheap hand tools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJzwyIo4Sx8

even if you do not care about the process, IF YOU LOVE YOUR FIREARMS, fast forward to 17:30 and listen to what the man has to say. I have not heard the truth of what is happening with our 2nd amendment rights explained better. explicit language warning. don't have the kiddies around.

[kb0nly]

Yep i did a little more research myself, the laws basically say you can build it yourself for your own use, but its not transferable or sellable. Selling it would mean your manufacturing, and therefore need an FFL. But you can build as many as you want for yourself!

Maybe i should grab a half dozen of them and toss them in the safe, never know someday they might be worth more... LOL

I took a look at Ares Armor. They have a nice looking jig, a little pricey compared to others i looked at but the jig definitely looks nice.

[Scootertrash]

Ares Armor you say?
Check this out. The BATF raided ARES Armor claiming that their 80% lower that the BATF had previously cleared as legal now all of a sudden isn't? Trying to force them to give up their customer lists?

http://aresarmor.com/store/Ares-Armor-dispute-with-the-ATF?utm_source=13Mar2014+ATF+Court+Order&utm_campaign=13MAR14-ATFdispute&utm_medium=email

http://aresarmor.com/store/media/cms/xmodnewsrss/TRO-ARES-ARMOR-and-ATF.pdf

But hey, the government would NEVER raid a private citizen when no crime has been committed, right? :rolleyes:

[kb0nly]

Have it shipped to an anonymous PO Box... LOL...

Yeah i read about that stuff with Ares Also.

[DohcBikes]

But hey, the government would NEVER raid a private citizen when no crime has been committed, right? :rolleyes:

I'm curious as to how you draw a comparison between someone that is manufacturing 80% lowers and a private citizen with a gun collection.... not even in the same ballpark.

But I will say this, if they wanna take our guns, the easiest way would be to outlaw and regulate the manufacturing, which they are, which I do not agree with.

[Billy Golightly]

I've been wanting to do this but just haven't made the time...

AK lowers are insanely easy to make also. The parts kits are a lot harder to come by it seems than AR stuff now though than it was a few years ago.

[Scootertrash]

I'm curious as to how you draw a comparison between someone that is manufacturing 80% lowers and a private citizen with a gun collection.... not even in the same ballpark.

First and foremost, from what I understand, this pertains to the poly lowers manufactured by EP for ARES, they are selling EP Armory's poly 80% lowers not manufacturing them.

Is there a difference between a private citizen following laws at home and a private citizen following laws in the course of doing business? Raiding the business is the first step. Shortly after, or at the same time, they will raid his home and take everything firearm related from his home too, under the guise of being evidence. ;) You know what ATF stands for don't you? Always Think Forfeiture

Also, if they do/did manage to get his customer lists, do you really believe they wouldn't start knocking on customers doors to collect the previously BATF approved 80% lowers that the BATF suddenly decided were illegal?


But I will say this, if they wanna take our guns, the easiest way would be to outlaw and regulate the manufacturing, which they are, which I do not agree with.

They haven't really changed the rules and regulations much, if any, in the recent past as far as manufacturing, some states are just restricting citizens on what they can own. Some manufacturers in some of those states are packing and moving to different states, taking the jobs and tax dollars with them.

[DohcBikes]

When that particular business is making things that people clearly make into firearms, yes I think there is a major difference.

As far as them raiding his home after the business, well, if they have determined that he was breaking the law in his firearm parts manufacturing business, then I suppose that is a real possibility. Same goes for the sold parts if they are deemed illegal to possess. And here again, if I knew more about the laws, the company, and the product, I would very likely disagree with any restrictions that would be placed on this particular manufacturer, and I would also likely disagree with the determination that ANY part be considered illegal in the first place.

[Scootertrash]

As far as the 80% lowers go, they must be approved by the BATF before they can be offered for sale, which they were in this case.

You don't go thru all the hoops, regulations and costs to become a firearm dealer and then break the rules. The ones who have are very very few and didn't last long. But when you have limitless funds like the government, falsely accusing someone can ruin them financially both in their business and their personal life defending themselves and then the alphabet agency walks away with a "Ooops, my bad"? That's pure BS.

The BATF has a history of changing the rules in the middle of the race. They usually end up back peddling, but not after costing private citizens/business owners and the taxpayers LOTS of money.

[Scootertrash]

I've been wanting to do this but just haven't made the time...

AK lowers are insanely easy to make also. The parts kits are a lot harder to come by it seems than AR stuff now though than it was a few years ago.

It's still fairly easy to get the AK parts kits, although the government banned selling the original barrels with the kits and the prices have gone up a bit.

[kb0nly]

EP Armory and ARES Armor both got raided but ONLY for the Polymer lowers. Other places that were offering a similar Polymer product have also got raided, lots of news floating around on that. The reason is the ATF approved the Poly lower but then decided it wasn't, as most claim because its too damn easy. The Poly lowers were made by injection molding a white plastic piece that comprises the material that you need to remove when completing the lower, and then they take those cores and put it in an injection mold and mold the rest of the lower receiver around it. The problem they really had is they made them two different colors, and the ATF claimed they were a 100% lower which was then converted to an 80% lower because of the difference in material. It was a misunderstanding of the manufacturing process. If you look at other places that are still selling Poly lowers theirs is one color material, no defined difference between what you need to remove and what you need to leave. This is where EP screwed up, they made the material that needs to be removed a different color material, they did this so any guy with a dremel can widdle away at the one color till they get to the other color and bam you have a completed lower.

EP Armory is still selling their Aluminum forgings without any troubles, as well as just about any other 80% source on the net with either Forged, Cast, or Billet aluminum 80% lowers.

There is bunch of them showing up now on tons of websites, and they all seem to be coming from the same manufacturer, which i suspect is why they keep going out of stock and small numbers are available because the manufacturer is so stretched out. There is A380 cast lowers on gunbrokers for $35 now, the forgings cost around twice that, and the billet units are around $100-$150 depending on finish and etchings and whatever else.

I think any gun enthusiast should stash away some 80% lowers... If nothing else as spares in case SHTF... The complete upper assemblies from most suppliers seem to be averaging 4-6 weeks to get built and shipped. If you got the know-how and tools you could assemble your own complete upper from parts kits a lot faster. The AR market is pretty crazy right now, i know guys that sold their extra rifle or extra parts just to get that premium price they are bringing right now.

[DohcBikes]

EP Armory and ARES Armor both got raided but ONLY for the Polymer lowers.

most claim because its too damn easy.

It was a misunderstanding of the manufacturing process.

EP screwed up

they did this so any guy with a dremel can widdle away at the one color till they get to the other color and bam you have a completed lower.


........oops.

[Scootertrash]

EP Armory and ARES Armor both got raided but ONLY for the Polymer lowers. I covered that in post #11

The reason is the ATF approved the Poly lower but then decided it wasn't, as most claim because its too damn easy. The Poly lowers were made by injection molding a white plastic piece that comprises the material that you need to remove when completing the lower, and then they take those cores and put it in an injection mold and mold the rest of the lower receiver around it. The problem they really had is they made them two different colors, and the ATF claimed they were a 100% lower which was then converted to an 80% lower because of the difference in material. It was a misunderstanding of the manufacturing process. If you look at other places that are still selling Poly lowers theirs is one color material, no defined difference between what you need to remove and what you need to leave. This is where EP screwed up, they made the material that needs to be removed a different color material, they did this so any guy with a dremel can widdle away at the one color till they get to the other color and bam you have a completed lower.


It was a misunderstanding of the manufacturing process.
By who?
The white FCG (Fire Control Group) block is made, and then the lower is molded around it, so there is never a functional receiver in existence.
EP didn't screw anything up, an 80% lower is an 80% lower. An 80% lower is not defined by the color of the materials, or the ease of making it functional, it's defined by the amount of machining required to make it into a functioning firearm. Removing the different colored plastic from the receiver is just one part of turning it into a functioning firearm. There is other machining that needs to be done before it can be assembled into a firearm.

A guy with a dremel can still whittle away without the different colored plastic and bam you have a completed lower. Sorta. You just have to pay a little more attention to what you are doing, and there are still holes that have to be drilled in the proper locations, so it's not really a dremel and bam you're done thing. Unless you are a machinist or have some general knowledge of layout and maching, jigs and templates are required to make sure holes and such a put in the proper places and align correctly. You can't just whip out a dremel and a hand drill and have at it. Well, I suppose you could, but http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-gen069.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

A US District Court judge has ruled that the ATF needs to go to a judge and articulate probable cause that a law has been broken. They cannot simply try an administrative subpoena or just show up and demand to see the books. Basically the judge to the ATF to go get warrant.

[Scootertrash]

........oops.
Not trying to be a Richard Cranium, but....
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you have little to no knowledge of what constitutes an 80% lower and what it takes to complete one, and with the somewhat generic info that kb posted (no offense kb ;)) you are assuming that EP and ARES are guilty because the ATF says so?

[kb0nly]

From reading through all the documentation it appears the basic problem they had with the EP lowers was the material differences. From what i understand reading over on Calguns.net they submitted the lower for approval for sale as an 80% without specifying that there would be two different colors of materials. Now while i agree this is BS you have to look at it from the point of view of someone thats trying to regulate this stuff, if you look at the pic and see two different color materials it makes you suspicious, the pictures on there site makes it look like you could grab that tab on the top of the white material and slide it out, of course we know thats not true, but i suspect if they had made them of 100% black or whatever color material without any difference in the material that you have to machine out then there wouldn't be an issue. There is indeed the ability to complete poly lowers in an afternoon with a Dremel using various bits and hand tools, i have seen the results and while not perfect it doesn't matter as long as the internals fit and function. Is it a great quality lower, no, and most that build them that way spend three times as much on parts because they put a drop in trigger instead of using the traditional lower parts kit trigger group. That way they can fudge on the lowers dimensions a bit.

I see today that poly80.com got taken out as well, all they are selling now is the lower parts kits and stocks, no lowers anymore. They also took down the hilarious picture that used to be on the front page, but i archived it for those that might get a laugh out of it.

189121

Poly80 had a bunch of Youtube videos of a guy milling these out with it in a vise and a dremel tool with what looked like a zip bit, like the kind you use to make electrical box holes in drywall. They didn't turn out great but every one of them worked, supposedly... LOL

[Scootertrash]

That pic is hilarious!

Personally, I'd stick with a aluminum for a lower, even though all the pressures from firing a shot take place in the chamber of the barrel in the upper. If/when they come back I may build one just for shts and giggles, but I can't say that I'd trust it as a home defense or SHTF weapon. I'd do it just so I could say I did.

I do agree with your previous post that a gun owner should have an 80% lower or 4 stashed tho, along with any jigs and templates needed. ;)

[Scootertrash]

Looks like the ATF raided ARES yesterday, ignoring the restraining order and the fact that the Judge ruled they needed to prove laws were broken and to get a warrant.

Remember guys, this is the same ATF that illegally ran illegally purchased guns to Mexico, resulting in the deaths of 2 Border Patrol Agents. "Fast and Furious" guns have also been found at crime scenes were over 150 civilians have been killed or injured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

[kb0nly]

I have no doubt that ARES and EP Armory are going to take a lot of flak over this whole Poly lower BS, it will go through court and get dragged out forever i am sure. EP has the paperwork to prove the ATF approved what they were manufacturing and selling, and then when the ATF back pedaled and said no its not now they did stop as requested. So i don't see where they will be in big trouble as some say, they will just have to go through the usual court BS and get it sorted out.

We should all buy Aluminum 80% lowers from EP to give them a little support money... LOL!