No neutral light, no spark issue

[Atc70noob]

So I have a 86 big red 250. I can turn the key on and get my starter cranking but I have no spark and no neutral light. I grounded out my neutral safety switch on the frame and I can get the reverse light to turn on but not the neutral light. I know both bulbs are good. Where do I start? When it died it sort of flickered the neutral light and slowly died off and then no spark and no light. My headlight works fine. Anyone ever have this issue?

[SPD FRK]

I have a similar issue. All I have is a possible work around.
Down near where the swingarm attaches to the frame you will find the connection for the neutral light. Disconnect it and try to start it.
You'll have to kick it since the starter motor depends on that connection for a ground.
After my '85 is started I can reconnect the wire.
I will add with mine connected the starter rolls over fine and the light works but no start. Disconnected no starter and no light but it kicks over and runs fine. Also it won't shut off with the key while disconnected sometimes.
I'll be watching this thread to see what you figure out. Could also be my issue. Good luck.

[Flyingw]

On the pigtail for the neutral and reverse lights there is a diode. A diode allows current to flow in one direction only. Sort of like a check valve. If you look at the diagram, the diode is connected to the Light Green/Red wire coming from the neutral switch which provides ground to the neutral light, starter solenoid, and CDI. The diode prevents current from back feeding back through the system. Now, with normal operation, the ground would travel up to the light turning it on, it enables the starter solenoid, and also tells the CDI the transmission is in neutral.

Let's assume the diode is bad, this would prevent the ground from getting to the light. It would also depending If the diode was open or shorted not tell the CDI it is safe to start cutting off the signal to allow the CDI to fire the ignition coil to start. Since the light does not illuminate, I will assume the diode is open just the same as cutting the wire. There is nothing else in the system that would account for the light not illuminating and no fire from the CDI. Disconnect the wires back on the tail and the motor will turn and not fire with estart.

To get to the diode, you have to remove the pigtail the lights plug in to and unwrap the harness for the neutral light. A few inches from the light socket, you will find a tiny black carbon cylinder. Most meters have a diode function. If you put the meter on that setting, you can put the leads on either side of the diode and you will have continuity. Flip the leads and no continuity. This will be the indication for a good diode. If you have continuity in both directions or no indication on the meter in either direction the diode is bad. If you have or can borrow another pigtail then you can verify the pigtail on yours is bad otherwise you can check it with a meter.

You will see attached a wiring diagram with an arrow pointing toward the diode and the symbol for the diode.

[Atc70noob]

My wiring diagram for the 250es does not show that symbol where you indicate it. Could it be that the es model didn't have it? It might be somewhere else in the harness I guess.

[Atc70noob]

Could it be the rectifier? I see the same symbol inside of a box inline with wires coming from the neutral indicator. Looked it up in the earlier pages and it's a rectifier. Continuity in direction of arrow. Could I jump the terminals with a wire and see if the neutral light turns on? That way I can pinpoint what is going on?

[Flyingw]

Yes. That would test the light.

[Flyingw]

The rectifier is actually an inverter rectifier. It's job is to regulate power from the lighting coil at about 13.6vac. It also inverts power from AC to. Dc to charge the battery.

[Atc70noob]

The rectifier is actually an inverter rectifier. It's job is to regulate power from the lighting coil at about 13.6vac. It also inverts power from AC to. Dc to charge the battery.

Do you think it could be my issue? I am at a loss because my skills are basically backtracking all wires and making sure all connections are good. I have not tested any resistances yet and am not sure how. I am pretty sure I can figure it out but I don't have such a good tester, just a cheap harbor freight one.

[Flyingw]

Even a cheap tester will tell you if you have continuity through any given wire and give you a close enough resistance reading. If you touch the leads together, the meter will display the resistance but since the leads are touched together, there will be very little resistance so the display will read 0.00 or a very small number. The smaller the number the less resistance there is and visa versa.

On the 86 ES, Honda moved the diode to a block and since I've never owned one, I can't tell you where that block is but you can find it by the wire colors. This will be a small nylon terminal block with two wires going in to it. The 85 ES diagram does not show the same assembly as the 86 but we know the manuals are full of errors but since yours is an 86 then I fairly confident there is one.

Its very possible in the case of the 85, Honda may have incorporated the diode in to the CDI. In any case, I'm not saying with any certainty that the diode is the problem but its the only component that will effect whether the light turns on and is also connected to the CDI otherwise this kind of problem would be common to both the kick and electric start. If you can find the diode and check it with a meter, that will either confirm or eliminate it as the problem.

To answer your question, anything is possible but the inverter/rectifier is for the charging/lighting systems, not the starter or ignition system.

[Atc70noob]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mud43xk1nw37p1j/IMG_20140819_192529.jpg

If you notice on my schematic to the middle top is the part I am talking about. It runs inline with the neutral indicator light and the neutral switch on the engine itself. There is another bigger regulator/rectifier for the battery as well. We are talking about the smaller one right? The bigger one is for charging, the smaller one is for the neutral light?

[Flyingw]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. There is only one regulator. I put an arrow pointing to the terminal block with the diode. To the left is the fuse block and the right is the CDI.

[Atc70noob]

I re-read your previous post and you are correct, there is a block along the frame near the cdi that has two connectors and a nylon block. It looks like a very small rectangular "relay" like on a car in the distribution box. I disconnected it and observed the spade ends and wondered what it was, I am not sure why I didn't jump the connectors right there but it slipped my mind. I will try to jump the connections ASAP and we will see what happens. I doubt I will get up there anytime soon since the atc is 7 hours from me.

I am quite flustered because I keep finding big reds for sale locally no line but no one ever gets back to me. I may just have to show up and badger these people.

[Atc70noob]

Yeah, what you call the diode I keep calling the regulator. The schematic is calling it a rectifier. Not sure on the proper name but I think it is the culprit.

[Flyingw]

If you disconnect that terminal block and jump across the two wires on the harness side, the light should come on. You don't need to start it, just turn the key on. If the light does come on then we may be heading down the right road. If the light doesn't come on then there is something else going on.

[Flyingw]

This is an ES/SX Regulator/Rectifier. Its mounted on the left side of the tail

[Flyingw]

The diode terminal block is probably about 1/2" square made of white plastic with only two wires going in to it on a plug. Look at the attached pic. I have circled what I believe is the diode terminal block. Its fairly close to the CDI.

[Atc70noob]

Okay, that is what I remember with mine, definitely clearing it up for me. Appreciate it greatly, I am going to go ahead and order the diode thingamajig and have my brother try it out as he is much closer to it than I. Hopefully we will make some progress on this.

[Flyingw]

Ok cool. Keep us posted.

[Atc70noob]

Finally got around to replacing the diode block, no neutral light but it e-start cranks over. No spark. So now I am thinking to disconnect the key switch to try to isolate that, disconnect the kill switch...if the light still doesn't come on then replace the CDI...does that sound like a good plan to diagnose? Anything else I can try? Please help, this big red is my workhorse and I am forced to lamely ride my riding mower around LOL.

[Atc70noob]

Okay, I still have not been able to figure this out. I have a used CDI on the way to my house that I am going to try. I am hoping that I can get some riders to chime in on what I am hoping will help me diagnose if it is not my kill switch.

So when the trike is "key on" and the kill switch is on "run" the neutral light should come on. What happens if you turn the kill switch to "off" but leave the "key on". Does the neutral light shut off? What about the reverse light if you put it into reverse?

I cannot remember what happens during all this in my several years of riding my big red. I am hoping it will tell me that it is or is not my kill switch.

I am pretty sure my ignition switch works fine because I can get my reverse light to come on when I put it into reverse. I just cannot get the neutral light on.
My brother is convinced it is the ignition and I am convinced it is not.

[jakep53]

any time the ignition is "on" the neutral light should be on

[Flyingw]

You need to put a meter on the neutral switch down on the clutch cover and see if you are getting a ground when the tranny is in neutral. Of you don't, then there is a problem with the switch probably a worn tip. If you do get a ground, then trace the wiring from the switch connector all the way up to the light. Remember, positive battery power is always sitting at the light. Its the ground from the switch that completes the circuit and turns the light on.

In post 19 you said the estart works but no light? The same ground from the neutral switch also goes to the starter solenoid so is the estart works but the light doesn't tells me the neutral switch is working. Perhaps the bulb on the dash is bad or the wiring between the switch and light is bad.

Its also possible you have a bad pulse coil or the exciter coil may be bad. Have you put a meter on those to see what the resistance is? The key switch only energizes the main harness with battery power but in the off position, it also kills the CDI in the same way the run/stop switch does by providing a ground to the CDI to keep it from charging.

[Atc70noob]

Yeah I think the neutral switch works fine cause I can ground the wire itself on the frame and get nothing for neutral a light for reverse. I will check the pulse or exciter coil. Does the neutral light stay on when the switch is on off? Not the key but the off or run switch on the left side of the bars?

[Flyingw]

Yes, the light stays on. The key switch is what switches power on to the main harness so as long as the key switch is on, the light should work and the light should work no matter what position the run/stop switch is in..

[Atc70noob]

Yes, the light stays on. The key switch is what switches power on to the main harness so as long as the key switch is on, the light should work and the light should work no matter what position the run/stop switch is in..

Okay that narrows it down somewhat. I have an extra coil from a parts lot, I'll check the resistance of that and see what I get. I do not have the bike at my house right now so I've gotta diagnose as much as I can before I get back to it at my cabin. It's really stumping me. I am convinced it's the cdi because it acted so weird before it died. Almost like losing power and the neutral light flickered on and off. Then bam no spark and no neutral light. I checked every wire and fuse. Once I get my cdi in, I'll get back up there and mess with it some more.
Thanks so much for the input, I'm usually pretty good at fixing these things as long as it's got spark and is a carb issue. I once chased around a spark issue on a atc70 and I ended up just buying a whole new cdi and stator to avoid the points.

[Atc70noob]

Okay update time:

No neutral light, no spark. Starter spins fine but something is not quite right there, is not turning the engine.

Pulled starter, and voila stripped gear. Dug into starter reduction gears and more stripped gears.

Where have the broken teeth gone? Pulled the flywheel case and of course the flywheel and stator is trashed. Replaced the flywheel and the stator with ebay units. The weird part was the replacement stator had two wires at the pulse generator while mine had two. Still had the same plugs at the end to hook up to the wiring harness so I installed it.

Replaced the reduction gears and put the cover back on the case. I had to get creative with a ratchet strap around the flywheel and I hooked it up to the front motor mount hole to hold it in place while I torqued it down.

Checked for electric start and all I get is a buzz at the solenoid. Of course the battery is low.

Kicked it over and I now have spark!!!
Still no neutral light....weird.
Took about 15 kicks for it to start, started much easier after those 15 kicks. It had sat for half a year not working so 15 kicks is not bad in winter at 32 degrees.

We decided to track down the neutral light issue and it came down to a loose wire at the back of the bulb socket rubber. It was not visible until we tugged at the wires and a wire popped right out.

The light and the no spark issue were unrelated and finally the issue is resolved. It has been running really well and I am so glad to have it running!

One issue that we ran into was after I rechecked the schematic for the flywheel cover, I had realized I did not remember a washer going on the shaft before the bearing for the flywheel gear. Do you think it would cause major issues if it were not there? I do not think it fell out when I replaced the flywheel but I cannot say I remember seeing it either. I did notice there was a little in and out play at the gear when I pushed it in and out away from the flywheel. I already have it all back together and I am thinking about pulling it back apart if I need to.