1981 Big Red Problem Question

[Hunter79]

Hi all. I am a newbie here. I've had my grandpa's Honda Big Red 3 Wheeler at my house for a while now trying to figure out what's wrong with it. I've even taken it into a shop but won't be taking it there anymore because he hasn't fixed it yet and it's been there three times. Anyway, the problem is, it was running fine and then one day decided it wouldn't run anymore. To make it clear, I took it to this mechanic. He adjusted the carb and said it was good to go. I get it home, run it for about 6 hours total, and it goes back to turning over and firing, but not starting. I take it back to him, he adjusts the carb and said it was good to go. I get it home, run it for about 6 hours total, and it goes back to turning over and firing, but not starting, again. You guessed it, I took it back and told him that it wasn't the adjustment in the carb. He insisted it was and adjusted it again. You guessed it, around 6 hours and now it's doing the turning over and firing, but not starting. What in the world could be wrong? I have no idea but would really like to get this running. Also, the mechanic said that the second time I took it there the carb had completely changed where he had it adjusted to. SO, what do you think? And thanks in advance!!

[Keepah Rolln]

It could be alot of things..How long do you ride it before it shuts down? 6 hours of riding without shutting it down for a break? Maybe its over heating...

[e5earley]

When it quits, open the fuel bowl drain and see if fuel comes out. If not, your float may be sticking starving it for fuel. Just a thought.

[Hunter79]

When I say 6 hours, I mean it runs for 6 hours altogether. I've only run it for MAYBE 45 minutes straight once. But, it will run like a CHAMP for that 6 hours give or take. Then, it won't start. I know that whatever is wrong with it has to be an easy fix, I just don't know what easy fix that might be. The guy I've taken it to is an atv mechanic, but not a HONDA mechanic. :wondering

[tvpierce]

Sounds to me like he's fixing the problem, then the problem comes back.
Is he "adjusting" the carb or is he removing/cleaning it?
Is there an inline filter between the tank and carb?

[Hunter79]

He is taking the carb off and checking it to see if there's any gunk in it. He has informed me EVERY time that there's nothing at all in it. He then adjusts it to run either richer or less rich, I can't remember which, and calls me saying it's fixed. I know for a fact the carb is adjusted to the exact place he had it adjusted to last time because I put a dot on the screw and surrounding metal to ensure it hasn't come out of adjustment as he once said. I'm not sure if there's an inline filter but I will check it out asap. I should be able to work on it some over the next few days. I'll check for a filter and rust in the tank, although I don't think there's either. I just really want this thing to run and if I can't figure it out, I'm going to sell it and buy a four wheeler. :confused:

[Devilsclaw]

I had the same problem that drove me nuts for months, but I finally figured it out. Not saying that's what's wrong with yours but I can relay my experience.

Ethanol fuel was sloughing off superfine particles from the fuel system which were passing through the filter and reformulating in the carb and plugging the primary jet. Long story short, what fixed mine: cleaned out carb for the fifth time, added a second fuel filter, a 30 micron. Rolled up a tiny little cigar made of 0000 bronze wool and stuffed in the primary jet as a last ditch filter. I now use ONLY pure gasoline without ethanol, and drain carb bowl after every outing.

Also, there should be no "adjusting" of the carb. It should be set to 100% factory spec, and only adjust the idle speed as required. Of course this requires the mechanic to actually look up what the factory jetting, float height, and fuel level should be. Most grease monkeys don't want to have to do all that extra readin and stuff! (Assuming no engine or intake mods)

This is just my experience, but sounds a lot like what you are going through.

Best of luck!

[Hunter79]

I had the same problem that drove me nuts for months, but I finally figured it out. Not saying that's what's wrong with yours but I can relay my experience.

Ethanol fuel was sloughing off superfine particles from the fuel system which were passing through the filter and reformulating in the carb and plugging the primary jet. Long story short, what fixed mine: cleaned out carb for the fifth time, added a second fuel filter, a 30 micron. Rolled up a tiny little cigar made of 0000 bronze wool and stuffed in the primary jet as a last ditch filter. I now use ONLY pure gasoline without ethanol, and drain carb bowl after every outing.

Also, there should be no "adjusting" of the carb. It should be set to 100% factory spec, and only adjust the idle speed as required. Of course this requires the mechanic to actually look up what the factory jetting, float height, and fuel level should be. Most grease monkeys don't want to have to do all that extra readin and stuff! (Assuming no engine or intake mods)

This is just my experience, but sounds a lot like what you are going through.

Best of luck!

I am going to work on it tomorrow. I've been told some of the same thing you're saying. I am going to check the tank to make sure there's no rust. I'm also going to clean the carb again and put on an inline filter. I sure hope this works. It's FRUSTRATING!! Of course, I have no idea how to put in an inline filter but I guess I'll just have to learn!

[Devilsclaw]

It's easy just cut the fuel line, and plug it in. Make sure it's the right size for your fuel line. Also, once you have it installed, disconnect the line at the carb, and allow it to flush out for a while. This helps to purge any debris that you may have dislodged by manipulating the fuel line. Actually, replacing the entire fuel line isn't a terrible idea.

I can see why the "mechanic" thought the setting had been changed. Mine was the same way. What was actually happening though was the setting had not changed but the fuel amount being delivered HAD. These machines are so old that even when they are "clean" there still is years of accumulation of microscopic junk in there that gets dislodged.

It can make you crazy but it can be fixed.

PS: the fuel filter is directional, look for an arrow that points to the direction of flow.

[Jmoozy27]

What kind of tank is it? Plastic or metal. You may have a vent problem causing the tank to vapor lock after running for six hours or so and not allowing fuel to get to the carb. Just a thought.

[Hunter79]

What kind of tank is it? Plastic or metal. You may have a vent problem causing the tank to vapor lock after running for six hours or so and not allowing fuel to get to the carb. Just a thought.

It's a metal tank. The vent on the cap is working because I ran it in the off position until it died. I then turned it back to the on position and it fired right up and ran, until the 6 hour time limit that is. Maybe that's not what you're talking about though?

[Jmoozy27]

That's what I was talking. It was worth a shot. Go ahead and go through your combustion triangle. Air, Fuel, Spark... One of them has to be the issue. Sounds electrical.

[Hunter79]

Well, I just got back in from looking at what I feel I'm halfway qualified to look at. I took the tank off and completely emptied out the gas. I ran my finger inside of it to see if there was any rust residue, there wasn't. I then looked at the gas line. I didn't realize it but when I took it to the mechanic, he had already changed the gas line between the tank and carb. He also put in an inline filter. So, that's not the problem. I replaced the gas with premium gas after putting the tank back on. Just for the heck of it, I tried to start it. It started right up and ran perfectly at an idle for about 10 minutes. All of the sudden, it died and now won't start again. :wondering I don't know what to do now as I just don't feel qualified enough to take the carb off. I'm afraid I'll break something on it and I know it's not cheap to replace it. :wondering

[e5earley]

Open the drain screw at the bottom of the fuel bowl and make sure you're getting fuel into the carb.

[86125m]

Well for one thing there isn't such a thing as an 81 big red if i could gets some pics I could id the trike. But it does sound like your carb is getting stopped up might be time for a new carb

[Hunter79]

I'll go get the model number. I could have sworn it was an 81. I will go look right now...

[Hunter79]

Correction. It's a 1984 ATC200ES Big Red Manufactured in Japan in 11/83.

[Hunter79]

How much would a new carb be for one of these?

[Devilsclaw]

New Chinese carbs probably around $30. Hang on to the old one though if you go that route, cause I bet there's nothing wrong with it other than dirty.

One thought, have you checked for spark when it won't start? Sometimes the coils warm up and don't work right. The CDI can do that too. If an 81 has CDI, IDK. o I would definitely check it next time it won't fire up. In order to check for spark, pull the boot off off the spark plug and have your wife put her pinky finger in the end of the wire. Then crank it several time. If she gets really PO'D at you, you know it's got spark. (Na. You should see it jump to the head, or put a spark plug tester on it)

I still wonder if it isn't getting the carb plugged though. If it has spark while not starting I'd look at fuel delivery.

[Hunter79]

New Chinese carbs probably around $30. Hang on to the old one though if you go that route, cause I bet there's nothing wrong with it other than dirty.

One thought, have you checked for spark when it won't start? Sometimes the coils warm up and don't work right. The CDI can do that too. If an 81 has CDI, IDK. o I would definitely check it next time it won't fire up. In order to check for spark, pull the boot off off the spark plug and have your wife put her pinky finger in the end of the wire. Then crank it several time. If she gets really PO'D at you, you know it's got spark. (Na. You should see it jump to the head, or put a spark plug tester on it)

I still wonder if it isn't getting the carb plugged though. If it has spark while not starting I'd look at fuel delivery.

One question. Wouldn't the warm coils do that every time though? This is why I, like most everyone else that has talked to me about it, still think it is the carb getting gunk in it as well. I'm going to have to just grow a pair and attempt to take it off and see if I can figure out what's going on.

[Devilsclaw]

An intermittent break in the CDI or deteriorated coil can be finicky, they can fail when they get hot, but usually, they go ahead and completely quit before too long--but it's easy to check. Just check it for spark when it won't start.

If it runs good when it runs, chances are it's the carb. It's really a simple carb, and I think it's easy to do, but I've also been doing it since I was 15, so I do understand your apprehension. Wish I could walk you through it. Just be extremely careful and gentle with everything you do. Take lots of pics with your phone to know how it all goes back together.

You begin by taking the throttle cable loose by unscrewing the cap at the top of the carb. Carefully pull the needle and slide out the top of the carb, and lay it aside being careful not to let the needle bump against anything that might damage it. It is very sensitive.

Then remove the fuel hose and set it aside. It's always a good idea to plug the end with a 1/4" bolt to keep dirt from entering the fuel line while you have the carb off.

Then loosen the clamps where the carb connects to the air box and also the intake to the engine. Do not remove the intake where it bolts on to the engine. Just leave it in place. Once the clamps are loose, you should be able to gently work the carb free and get it out onto your bench.

If you get this far, I can probably walk you through the rest, if you want. Do you have a Service Manual for this threewheeler?

It's not hard to take it apart if you can be careful and are able to work with small parts. I can't stress that enough. This is a job that requires patience and a calm approach. All you really have to do is take it apart, clean it out with spray carb cleaner, and compressed air, and then put it back exactly as it was. If you can post pics here, that would be helpful.

[Hunter79]

An intermittent break in the CDI or deteriorated coil can be finicky, they can fail when they get hot, but usually, they go ahead and completely quit before too long--but it's easy to check. Just check it for spark when it won't start.

If it runs good when it runs, chances are it's the carb. It's really a simple carb, and I think it's easy to do, but I've also been doing it since I was 15, so I do understand your apprehension. Wish I could walk you through it. Just be extremely careful and gentle with everything you do. Take lots of pics with your phone to know how it all goes back together.

You begin by taking the throttle cable loose by unscrewing the cap at the top of the carb. Carefully pull the needle and slide out the top of the carb, and lay it aside being careful not to let the needle bump against anything that might damage it. It is very sensitive.

Then remove the fuel hose and set it aside. It's always a good idea to plug the end with a 1/4" bolt to keep dirt from entering the fuel line while you have the carb off.

Then loosen the clamps where the carb connects to the air box and also the intake to the engine. Do not remove the intake where it bolts on to the engine. Just leave it in place. Once the clamps are loose, you should be able to gently work the carb free and get it out onto your bench.

If you get this far, I can probably walk you through the rest, if you want. Do you have a Service Manual for this threewheeler?

It's not hard to take it apart if you can be careful and are able to work with small parts. I can't stress that enough. This is a job that requires patience and a calm approach. All you really have to do is take it apart, clean it out with spray carb cleaner, and compressed air, and then put it back exactly as it was. If you can post pics here, that would be helpful.

I do not have a service manual. When the throttle cable comes loose and I open it up, is there a screw in there?

[Devilsclaw]

PM sent, let me know if you need help in obtaining a manual

[Hunter79]

PM sent, let me know if you need help in obtaining a manual

Got it. Thanks Devilsclaw!

[Hunter79]

Well, I'm going to work on this tonight/tomorrow with my dad and see if we can't figure out the problem. Time will tell!

[Hunter79]

I've gone out and worked on it a little by myself again. I took the tank off. I then started it and it started right up. I ran it until all of the gas was out of the line. I then put the tank back on with new gas and turned the gas on :D and it wouldn't start. I pulled the air filter off and sprayed some starter fluid in there as suggested in this thread. It wouldn't start then either. I pulled the spark plug and cleaned it up, which it really wasn't that dirty, and put it back in. I tried the starter fluid in the air box again but nothing. I am back in again scratching my head and my dad and I are going to try it again. I tried to start it both times that I've worked on it and it's started right up. It will run for a few minutes and then die. Once it dies after warming up, it won't start for anything. Any suggestions this time?

[e5earley]

When it's not starting remove the spark plug, plug it back in, ground it to the motor and check for spark. If you have no spark, it's electrical. If you have spark, it's fuel delivery. As stated before, you need three basic things to make it run. Spark, compression, and fuel. You need to run the tests to see which one is missing. Since it does run, you can forget about compression.

I'm still not convinced that you're getting proper fuel delivery.

[Devilsclaw]

You must check for spark when it's in the no start condition. Once you've done that, then you'll know what of the two areas to focus on. It could be as simple as a corroded wire that is intermittent but until you check you don't know. Let us know what you find.

[Devilsclaw]

If it has spark (and plug is DRY) put one drop of gasoline down the spark plug hole and reinstall the plug. If it fires once or twice after doing that you know it is fuel delivery of some sort.

[B-1B]

You can find a cheap Chinese Clone Carb online for about $25. They may not necessary be the greatest, but they work.

[Jmoozy27]

Don't go Chinese man, results vary but I think an oem carb should be fine with a good cleaning as long as it isn't physically damaged. Hunters problem is definitely electrical. The 200 are notorious for the screwy wiring.

[Hunter79]

Don't go Chinese man, results vary but I think an oem carb should be fine with a good cleaning as long as it isn't physically damaged. Hunters problem is definitely electrical. The 200 are notorious for the screwy wiring.

I'm beginning to think it's electrical too. When it won't start with ether after it dies tells me that it's electrical. Not sure though. Dad's gonna help me check for spark because I've never seen that done and I don't know how to do it at all. :confused:

[Hunter79]

Well, I just checked for spark. It has good spark. That's not the issue. I pulled the plug wire off and put a screwdriver in it. It sparked a good 3/16". Then, I pulled the plug and inserted it in the spark plug wire. I still had a 3/16" spark jump from the tang of the plug to a ground. It's not the spark. It's something else. At least I think. Now, I'm back to thinking it must be a fuel issue. Gee whiz. I'm gonna lose all of the hair I have left working on this thing. One thing about it though, I'm going to learn more about engines!

[Hunter79]

I just placed an order for a new carb. Will be here by Friday, maybe earlier. Now if I can just figure out how to install it. :) Hopefully that will fix it! If so, it will be a cheap fix!

[Hunter79]

I'm dying to get my carb in the mail. I really don't know if that will fix it but I'm sure hoping it will!

[Hunter79]

Well, I got the carb. The only problem is, I have no idea how to remove the old carb, much less put this one on! Are there any tutorials that I can watch on the internet to show how? I've searched but can't find any. Thanks!

[B-1B]

Try this site:
oscarmayer.net/ATC/manuals/
There's probably a service manual on there that could help you out with step-by-step procedures for carb replacement.

[oile]

when you checked spark did you check it right after it died or did you check it later on?

[Hunter79]

when you checked spark did you check it right after it died or did you check it later on?

Both. Well, I checked it before I even tried to start it. Then after I started it and it died, I checked it again. Then, I checked it again after a few hours had gone by. I had good spark every time.

[86125m]

have you checked your spark advancer if it is damaged or broken it could make your bike die and not want to start.

[Hunter79]

have you checked your spark advancer if it is damaged or broken it could make your bike die and not want to start.

What is a spark advancer? I'm VERY NEW to working on motors of any kind, so pardon my ignorance!

[86125m]

it is the part under the cover that says CDI take that cover off and the gold ring which is the pick up. Then look at the part that looks like this http://www.dratv.com/277w.html. If it is damaged this could be you problem and it needs to be replaced. You can either buy the new one that is in my link or find a used one on ebay any advancer from any of the atc 200 series will work. I know it made things on my 200m screwy. Oh don't worry about ignorance we learn by asking questions I only know because it took me hours to find out what had gone wrong with my bike.

[Hunter79]

it is the part under the cover that says CDI take that cover off and the gold ring which is the pick up. Then look at the part that looks like this http://www.dratv.com/277w.html. If it is damaged this could be you problem and it needs to be replaced. You can either buy the new one that is in my link or find a used one on ebay any advancer from any of the atc 200 series will work. I know it made things on my 200m screwy. Oh don't worry about ignorance we learn by asking questions I only know because it took me hours to find out what had gone wrong with my bike.

Well, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is, I got the new carb put on. The bad news is, it's still doing the same thing. It fired right up when I hit the starter. It ran, albeit a little rough, but it ran. I did have to keep it about 1/4 choked and had the throttle held in a bit. I ran it like this for about 2 minutes. I then got on, put it in gear, made it all of about 2 feet, and it died. And now, again, it won't start. I checked the spark again then and it's still got good spark. I'm just about at a loss.

86125m I don't know where you're talking about that part being. If you could describe it a little better, I'd try to find it. :wondering

[86125m]

the cover that its under looks like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Honda-ATC200S-ATC200-ATC-200S-200-S-Pulse-Generator-Spark-Advancer-Cover-/200930753310.

[Hunter79]

Well, I'll look at that tomorrow. I'm too frustrated to look at it anymore tonight. I know 3 things. I have great spark all the way through the plug, I have great compression, and I have fuel running at least through the carb. I'm gonna scratch my head on it some more tomorrow and then look at it when I get home from work.

[e5earley]

When I was troubleshooting my carb problems this weekend, I installed a clear tubing for the fuel line and a see through in line filter. With that installed you can verify fuel flow from the tank and catch any debris that could be stopping up your jets. I was getting flakes of rust in mine.

[Hunter79]

When I was troubleshooting my carb problems this weekend, I installed a clear tubing for the fuel line and a see through in line filter. With that installed you can verify fuel flow from the tank and catch any debris that could be stopping up your jets. I was getting flakes of rust in mine.

I have that now. There's NOTHING that my eye can see getting in there.

I was just remembering something about what this does when it's dying. I had this ATV down in the bottom field about 1/2 mile from home when it died like this. I let it cool down a while and then got it started up. It will ALWAYS die if it's acting up when I put it in gear unless I'm hammering the throttle. I did this and got it to drive all the way home. I had to stay on the throttle pretty hard the whole way home but I did get it here. As soon as I let it idle down by the garage, it died. And, wouldn't start. Is there a shut off on the ATV when it goes into gear for something? I have no idea, it was just a thought. I really want to get this running but don't have a ton of money to pay someone to work on it for me. And, I have a feeling it is going to cost some labor hours to figure out what is wrong with it...

[cap]

Do you have good fuel flow from the tank? Pull the fuel line off at the carb and let it drain into a container for a while to check.
Check the on/off and key switch for loose or bad connections.

[Devilsclaw]

Did the mechanic adjust the valves or did you check the clearance? Can't see that being the problem but I spouse it could if they were waaaay outta spec.

The thing with having to wail on the throttle sounds like a plugged primary to me. Read the shop manual it tells you how to do everything you need to do.

[Hunter79]

Did the mechanic adjust the valves or did you check the clearance? Can't see that being the problem but I spouse it could if they were waaaay outta spec.

The thing with having to wail on the throttle sounds like a plugged primary to me. Read the shop manual it tells you how to do everything you need to do.

The deal is, this is a new carburetor. It wouldn't have clogged that fast. Not to do the EXACT SAME THING! I can see into the gas line running from the tank to the carb. I put a new gas line in, along with an inline fuel filter. There's nothing in that line at all. I'm hoping my dad will be able to help me in the near future, but time will tell!

[e5earley]

I would try what cap suggested. If you're getting good consistent fuel flow through the valve, then you can more than likely rule out fuel delivery as your problem. Then it's back to checking electrical.

[Hunter79]

I would try what cap suggested. If you're getting good consistent fuel flow through the valve, then you can more than likely rule out fuel delivery as your problem. Then it's back to checking electrical.

I am definitely going to try this in a little bit. I know it's not the kill switch because we bypassed that just because it was a little loose. It wasn't that though because it was doing it before we bypassed it and it's still doing it now. I'm going to check for fuel flow down through the carb. If that's not it, it'll be back to square one!

[Hunter79]

Do you have good fuel flow from the tank? Pull the fuel line off at the carb and let it drain into a container for a while to check.
Check the on/off and key switch for loose or bad connections.

I pulled the line off of the carb and I let about a pint of fuel go through. I had the same flow at the end of the test that I did at the beginning. I don't think fuel delivery is my problem. I'm guessing it's back to electrical. :wondering

[Devilsclaw]

If you put a drop of gas in the combustion chamber, put the plug back in and then crank it, you will know for sure. If it fires, you know it's fuel. If not, probably ignition or compression, valves, etc.

I can't remember, did you say it has decent compression?

Even if the carb was plugged up, I've never seen one that wouldn't fire at least a little bit--usually run like crap but almost always will at least start. But just so you know, it only takes a chunk of something that is 80 microns to plug it up. Visible to the human eye, but you wouldn't be able to tell until you took the carb apart. Since you replaced the carb, and it ran, even for just a little while, that is telling you it might be fuel related. But that also doesn't mean that the carb is plugged up either.

You really need to be systematic about it. Go through all the checks in the manual. You know it has spark. You need to wet the plug and check to see if it will fire with manually delivered gas. Check compression. I would recommend checking valve clearance, at least check the physical timing, etc. All these things are in the manual, although the Honda manuals are a little sparse on details, they do help.

I can't remember what you had--is it electric start? If so, there is a chance the starter could be grounding out if the bushings are bad--I've seen them where it drains the electrical and CDI so bad that they won't start, but that's not very likely.

Again, just eliminate each thing one thing at a time.

If you feel like a road trip, bring it west on I-70 and I'll fix it for ya--no charge--otherwise, I can just tell you to do all the regular checks a mechanic does to find the problem. I admire your grit in tearing into the problem, but it's kinda like doing an algebra equation. Do one step at time--and fully eliminate each item until you figure it out. It can be frustrating, but that's what you have to do. I take it you are a young guy--I was 15 when I started working on these things, and didn't know much. I just read the manuals until I memorized them, and took everything apart and looked and studied, and listened to older people that knew what to do, and learned. That's how you do it, just one thing at a time! You'll get it--don't get discouraged!

[e5earley]

Definitely don't get discouraged. I've got a Chinese 110cc honda clone that is kicking my butt. I'm sure when I figure it out it will be something simple that I have missed.

[Hunter79]

Time to bring up an old thread. This ATV is kicking my tail. I've worked on it and worked on it. It still does the same thing. I'm just about to slap a "for sale" sign on it and buy something that runs.