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shdtreemechanic
01-26-2015, 12:30 AM
I finally got my 200s timed right and ready to run it will start up and idle perfect throttle up and everything but it has to be full choked in order to run. If I try to take the choke off it will spit sputter and die the carb has been chem dipped and cleaned thoroughly so what can this be? does it need to be jetted different or what? Also I can ride it with the vhoke on but at about half throttle it falls flat on its face like it doesn't have any power. I really need to know what I can do to help the situation.

Pickup_man
01-26-2015, 10:43 AM
I would double check the choke first, lever up should be choke on, and lever down should be choke off (this carb should be the same as a 185s I think). Sounds silly, but we all make rookie mistakes. Just this weekend I had to push mine back to the house a couple hundred yards away through snow and snow drifts and pulled the carb apart before I figured out all that happened was the choke got bumped on. If you're positive on that, I would check for air leaks and exhaust leaks. Get a can of carb/brake cleaner, get it running and spray it down over the carb intake at every spot there is a connection, and check the head gasket as well. If the idle rises you have an air leak and that's your problem. Have you made any modifications? Holes in the air box? High flow filter? new open exhaust? Did you bore it bigger? Anything other than %100 stock and you'll probably have to jet up but if everything is completely stock jets likely won't be your problem. Based on what you describe it sounds (to me) like it's running lean, does it get really hot on a short ride? Do a color check on the plug as well, white is lean (too much air) black is rich (too much fuel). That's where I would start, I'm not a mechanic but I've dealt with enough small engines that I would start there.

tri again
01-26-2015, 02:46 PM
I usually check hard stuff first.
Adjust valves as no other adjustment will help if they are off.
Sometimes the spark advance will get stuck....a rotating plate runs off the cam
with tiny little springs are a common issue.
Any way to check if the jets are stock?
Good fuel flow from tank?
Gas tank vent ok?
Pls let us know what you find

shdtreemechanic
01-26-2015, 04:14 PM
Thanks for the reply guys> The bike has a fresh overhaul with a new forged wiseco piston and rings std size. The choke operates like it should up is choke on and down is choke off. I know the valves are adjusted right. The carb is an aftermarket and the slide is a bit bigger than most ive seen on these, Should I rejet the carb because of this? I don't have the breather box installed yet because I was working on it and the tank isn't on it because I have to clean it would either of these affect it in any way? Thanks for the replies keep them coming. Jesse

shdtreemechanic
01-26-2015, 08:57 PM
Anybody else have any ideas? I would like to ride this weekend. Thanks in advance, Jesse

prometheus
01-26-2015, 09:16 PM
What aftermarket carb did you get?

shdtreemechanic
01-26-2015, 09:33 PM
What aftermarket carb did you get?

Im unsure what it is I didn't put it on there I will look an let u know tomorrow, Would not having the breather on the bike cause it to do this? Or not having the tank on it cause it? Thanks for the replies keep them coming. Jesse

muthey
01-26-2015, 09:41 PM
not having the airbox will definitely cause running issues, also if it is a chinese carb you will need to mess with the jets, it is hit or miss with them as they have a habit of throwing any old jet in there on original assembly in china. I think I have an original honda carb sitting here for a 200, I do know it needs a new float though that was broke when I got it.

shdtreemechanic
01-26-2015, 11:09 PM
not having the airbox will definitely cause running issues, also if it is a chinese carb you will need to mess with the jets, it is hit or miss with them as they have a habit of throwing any old jet in there on original assembly in china. I think I have an original honda carb sitting here for a 200, I do know it needs a new float though that was broke when I got it.
Im going to try some other things first but in case I don't get it right what do you need for your carb? I have another carb its a keihin japan but the slide is smaller than whats on the bike now I may check to see if these jets are bigger and ill try them and see what happens. Thanks for the reply and keep them coming. Jesse

phantomtracer
01-27-2015, 12:31 AM
Could be a clogged jet or carb orifice. When you choke it, you are increasing the air intake velocity which is increasing the Venturi effect thus drawing enough fuel to run the motor. Without the extra "suction" caused by the choke the air cannot pull enough fuel. I would also verify the pilot and main jet sizes.

RIDE-RED 250r
01-27-2015, 07:17 AM
Don't forget idle mixture screw as well.....

towboater
01-27-2015, 09:13 AM
Try to adjust air idle screw on side of carb,i had one do that one time and a little adjustment and it ran fine after that,mark were you started at so if it dont help you can go back to that point and rejet.

thcowboy
01-27-2015, 01:53 PM
Check the spark plug, if it is white, screw the jet in more to give it more fuel. If it is black screw it out a little. I think its jetted to lean maybe because the choke has to be on to compensate for being to lean and when you rev it it cant give it enough fuel. Good Luck!

Kariblay
01-27-2015, 02:56 PM
I had the same issue...and I had the choke lever in the wrong position..thinking 'down' was full choke.

shdtreemechanic
01-27-2015, 04:16 PM
Thanks guys for the help when it warms up a bit ill try it out and see what happens

RIDE-RED 250r
01-27-2015, 06:47 PM
If that carb is like the OEM 200es carb, the idle mixture screw will be on the bottom of the carb housing between the slide and engine, facing downward. It's kind of tough to get to. But if thats what you have, it regulates fuel at idle, and therefore opening it will increase fuel, closing decreases fuel.

Most of the 4-strokes had fuel regulating idle mixture screws as opposed to 2-strokes which had air regulating idle mixture screws.. Easy way to tell: If the idle mix screw is between the throttle slide and engine, it regulates fuel. If between the slide and airbox, it regulates air. Not to be confused with idle speed screw.

shdtreemechanic
01-27-2015, 07:07 PM
If that carb is like the OEM 200es carb, the idle mixture screw will be on the bottom of the carb housing between the slide and engine, facing downward. It's kind of tough to get to. But if thats what you have, it regulates fuel at idle, and therefore opening it will increase fuel, closing decreases fuel.

Most of the 4-strokes had fuel regulating idle mixture screws as opposed to 2-strokes which had air regulating idle mixture screws.. Easy way to tell: If the idle mix screw is between the throttle slide and engine, it regulates fuel. If between the slide and airbox, it regulates air. Not to be confused with idle speed screw.
Thanks man for the info yes the carb has that screw on the bottom on the motor side I never have seen one so I ran it in all the way I bet that is whats causing it to starve. Is there a baseline on how many turns this should be out? Thanks man for the info I will definitely adjust that, like I said I had never seen one on a carb like that but I never worked on atc's or quads either. Thanks, Jesse

Jmoozy27
01-27-2015, 10:39 PM
No more than 3, no less than 1.5 is kind of my guide to the air fuel mixture on a four stroke. Lightly screw it in and back it out 2 turns and that should have you in the door.

muthey
01-28-2015, 12:03 AM
manual calls for 1 7/8 turns out on the screw, also make sure when you put it back in that it went o-ring metal washer, and then spring or it will leak air from there. Definitely try that before we start talking another carb. I believe the oem carb is a kehien pd55a

Cromagnaman
01-28-2015, 01:09 AM
I had the exact same issue once on a motor bike I once had. If I took it off choke it would stall out every time. Turned out the main jet was clogged at the end. All this after I had already cleaned the carb once. Might be your issue as well.

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 01:41 AM
The main jet may be clogged but the idle air mixture being screwed all the way in isnt going to help it run to good. When it warms up again im going to adjust the idle mixture screw and try that first. Thanks for all the help it is well appreciated

RIDE-RED 250r
01-28-2015, 07:22 AM
I think you may be on the right track. Since you turned the idle mixture screw all the way in, that will most definitely starve it for fuel on the idle circuit!

As previously suggested, around 2 turns out from lightly seated should get you in the ballpark. Then you can fine tune from there. Make sure you make your final tune on a fully up to temp engine. An adjustment that will give you a satisfactory setting on a luke warm engine will change enough between that and full operating temp that you will want to adjust again.

Note: as you adjust the mixture screw, idle speed will also change. So keep in mind that as you adjust mixture, you will need to adjust the idle speed screw accordingly. (Idle speed screw is found on the slide housing)

Sorry for not getting back to you quicker... Was at work all night..

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 11:09 AM
Hey no problem im just glad everyone is commenting on my post and giving me all this great info. Thats what k going to do is adjust the idle mixture screw. Thanks for the replies they are all a big help.

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 12:54 PM
Ok update!! went out and wrenched on the 200s adjusted everything like you all said still nothing it will only run on full choke, it will throttle up but if you ride it it only takes half throttle before its starving for fuel, The carb on it is ajieli pz27 it has a main jet that is made to the emulsion tube the next jet beside it is a number 40 so I got the factory carb can I use the jets out of it in this carb? the main is a 100 and the ssmall jet is a 35 I cant use the whole carb because the slide is smaller and I don't have it. And will this fix it maybe? Thanks in advance love to hear from u. Jesse

muthey
01-28-2015, 03:06 PM
You can try that but it might be easier to go on eBay and buy a new slide and spring and cap for the oem one instead, as those jets are the right sizes for that one. But try the oem jets in the carb you have the slide for and see where that gets you before buying anything. And I will see if I have a spare slide spring and cap floating around somewhere I know someone else will even if I don't.

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 04:34 PM
You can try that but it might be easier to go on eBay and buy a new slide and spring and cap for the oem one instead, as those jets are the right sizes for that one. But try the oem jets in the carb you have the slide for and see where that gets you before buying anything. And I will see if I have a spare slide spring and cap floating around somewhere I know someone else will even if I don't.

It actually helped changing the jets it does hesitate a bit when throttling up but smooths out and it will pickup and go. I think it needs some fine tuning still

aramid
01-28-2015, 05:34 PM
It actually helped changing the jets it does hesitate a bit when throttling up but smooths out and it will pickup and go. I think it needs some fine tuning still

What is your air temp there when you first start the bike?

How much choke do you give it to start?

How much throttle?


Try to start it with no choke and no throttle, then try 1/4 throttle.

If it burbles/stutters when you accelerate, it is rich . . if it simply fails to accelerate like it is out of gas and then finally accelerates, it is lean.

There is a needle in the slide that is adjustable . . try it on the lowest position then on the highest position . . keep testing until you notice a difference and post which position is better.

Clean your spark plug with a wire brush and carb cleaner or install a new one . . you want to try and get the porcelain nose as white as possible . . remove it after riding for at least 30 minutes total with just cruising and also revving it out, thenpost a photo of the plug from around a 45 degree angle.

im guessing that since it runs better in the higher rpms, your main jet is too big causing it to be too rich and lowering the needle might help . . if the needle is as low as it can go with the clip in the highest position, and it runs worse if you raise the needle by lowering the clip, then you need maybe a 2 size smaller main jet.

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 05:57 PM
I think the needle is in the third slot the main jet is a 100 which is stock for that bike, im out of gas right now but I'll try to adjust the needle an see what happens. Thanks for the replies

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 05:58 PM
Also i start it on full choke give it just about a. 1/8 inch or less of throttle to start the air temp is around 40

RIDE-RED 250r
01-28-2015, 07:21 PM
I can't speak to the carb you are using specifically, but at one time my atc110 had a chinese carb on it and it ran like garbage. OEM (Keihin) jets swapped right in and it ran OK after that

aramid
01-28-2015, 07:56 PM
Also i start it on full choke give it just about a. 1/8 inch or less of throttle to start the air temp is around 40ok good . . if it starts with 3 pulls or less you are doing good imo.

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 07:56 PM
I can't speak to the carb you are using specifically, but at one time my atc110 had a chinese carb on it and it ran like garbage. OEM (Keihin) jets swapped right in and it ran OK after that

Well i have to say it is running a lot better with the oem jets but still hesitates just a little at about half throttle then it picks up an goes i dont know if its because the new piston and rings havent got broken in yet or what? My needle may be too high, would that cause it to hesitate a little? Well as always thanks for the replies and keep them coming. Thanks Jesse

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 07:58 PM
ok good . . if it starts with 3 pulls or less you are doing good

It had to pick up the gas because I had the carb apart it took about 6 pulls to start it but i think thats because the carb was dry

aramid
01-28-2015, 08:05 PM
It had to pick up the gas because I had the carb apart it took about 6 pulls to start it but i think thats because the carb was dryok well let us know how it is with gas in it, lol.

if it starts with less than 3 pulls with full choke and is a bit harder to start with no choke, imo your pilot jet is plenty close enough for now which means that your hesitation is due mainly to something else but you still have the 40 pilot if you need to try that again.

aramid
01-28-2015, 08:10 PM
Well i have to say it is running a lot better with the oem jets but still hesitates just a little at about half throttle then it picks up an goes i dont know if its because the new piston and rings havent got broken in yet or what? My needle may be too high, would that cause it to hesitate a little? Well as always thanks for the replies and keep them coming. Thanks Jesse
it runs perfectly until half throttle then it hesitates at half throttle then does not hesitsate above half throttle?

does it hesitate from a dead stop under all throttle conditions?

in other words, if you push the throttle 1/4 of the way from a stop what does it do?

if you push it 1/2 way from a stop what does it do?

if you push it all the way from a stop what does it do?

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 08:23 PM
it runs perfectly until half throttle then it hesitates at half throttle then does not hesitsate above half throttle?

does it hesitate from a dead stop under all throttle conditions?

in other words, if you push the throttle 1/4 of the way from a stop what does it do?

if you push it 1/2 way from a stop what does it do?

if you push it all the way from a stop what does it do?
From a dead start does good push to half hesitates slightly and at full throttle does as its suposed to, could it be the pilot jet is too small and i need to put the #40 jet back in it?

aramid
01-28-2015, 08:29 PM
From a dead start does good push to half hesitates slightly and at full throttle does as its suposed to, could it be the pilot jet is too small and i need to put the #40 jet back in it?
unfortunately, since i am not there, i for one can't tell what the problem might be unless you answer each question individually in accurate detail . . all i can do is make an uninformed guess which won't help you much.

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 10:01 PM
Ok let me try this again 1/4 throttle runs good no hesitation from a dead start to half throttle has slight hesitation at half throttle and from dead start to full throttle has slight hesitation at half throttle then from there to wide open it runs like scalded dog, hope this helps but im still going to try the #40 pilot jet and go from there, i think its pretty close though. Thanks for the replies hope to see more. Jesse

phantomtracer
01-28-2015, 10:20 PM
When you say it hesitates at half throttle, how quickly are you opening the throttle?
If you hold the throttle steady at half throttle does it run ok?
Pilot jet is going to effect idle and just off idle.
I would check that the needle is correct and straight.

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 11:00 PM
If I hold it steady it helps it some and if I hold it there it will straighten up, as far as the needle it is brand new, would the needle height affect the hesitation any at all? I have it set on the third groove right now should I move it leave it where its at? thanks for the replies

thcowboy
01-28-2015, 11:02 PM
Try adjusting the needle to the second groove maybe?

shdtreemechanic
01-28-2015, 11:11 PM
Try adjusting the needle to the second groove maybe?

Second from the bottom?

thcowboy
01-28-2015, 11:17 PM
Yes that makes it go up which increases fuel, it might work ive tried it on my 200e because it was backfiring and stuff at half throttle before

aramid
01-28-2015, 11:30 PM
Ok let me try this again 1/4 throttle runs good no hesitation from a dead start to half throttle has slight hesitation at half throttle and from dead start to full throttle has slight hesitation at half throttle then from there to wide open it runs like scalded dog, hope this helps but im still going to try the #40 pilot jet and go from there, i think its pretty close though. Thanks for the replies hope to see more. Jesseunfortunately i have very little idea what this means . . if you just copy my questions and answer them one at a time it will be more helpful.

hers another question.

if you are cruising along with the throttle half open then you suddenly open it all the way, what happens?

you need to determine if it burbles or just seems like it runs out of gas . . if you can not do this, it is nearly impossible to determine if it is rich or lean in which case just keep changing jets and hope you get a combo that works.

aramid
01-28-2015, 11:32 PM
would the needle height affect the hesitation any at all? I have it set on the third groove right now should I move it leave it where its at? thanks for the repliesi already answered both of these questions in detail.

shdtreemechanic
01-29-2015, 01:48 AM
i already answered both of these questions in detail.
aramid when im cruising at half throttle amd open it all the way it acts like it starves for fuel then it picks up and runs right. I hope this helps. Thanks, Jesse

shdtreemechanic
01-29-2015, 05:28 PM
Another update i got to looking today and the idle mixture screw fell out and i can find it anywhere i put another one in but didnt help it also the slide is indented where the idle speed screw contacts it so my thoughts are this buy a new carb off eBay and see if this bike will run right. If anybody has any suggestions as to anything else i should try let me know, also could i put an aftermarket 200x carb on this trike and will it run ok with it? Please let me know and thanks in advance

thcowboy
01-30-2015, 12:17 PM
A 200x carb would work and would give you a bit more power and i think it would fit

shdtreemechanic
01-30-2015, 02:43 PM
A 200x carb would work and would give you a bit more power and i think it would fit

thanks man so just a stock jetted 200x carb that's what ill try