You think America has Immigration problems? See this...

[ironchop]

caught this vid earlier today......dayum!

I want to make it perfectly clear that the intent of this thread is NOT to bash any immigrants. I have more than a few friends from Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Mexico whom I respect deeply and have always treated me with kindness and respect. I do NOT blame someone for wanting to improve the living conditions of themselves or their families though I do disagree with our National policies regarding the matter. I will NOT tell anyone else how I think they should feel about the subject but I do humbly ask that we keep this about policies and not about slurring people like the good folks I know and work with for wanting nothing more than to have a better life for their family. I felt the need to edit this as the same topic has started by another fellow and has generated some ugly responses on one other forum I frequent. Thanks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmqOlxNQABI#t=12

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Can't say much other than I agree with you 'Chop...

We do need orderly and regulated immigration. No problem whatsoever with folks who want to come here to better themselves and become Americans. I DO have a problem with people who come here illegally and those who are allowing and condoning it. This is dangerous and self destructive for us for many reasons I'm sure I don't have to list one by one.

[El Camexican]

Crazy. Starve us for a couple days and we go feral faster than bores.

[fabiodriven]

You might have a problem with it if immigrants stopped doing a majority of the grunt work that is "below" most Americans these days Joe. There are jobs in the country that either wouldn't get done or would be prohibitively expensive if Americans did it. I just recently watched a series with Morgan Spurlock called "Inside Man". Most of the episodes I saw made some very great points via Morgan's own hands-on experiences. The immigration episode was a real eye opener for me. I can't really sum up an entire episode here, but I'd suggest you (and anyone else who's interested) check it out. You can watch it instantly on Netflix. I drink a bottle of orange juice just about every day which was made from oranges more than likely picked by illegal immigrants. Doesn't seem like much but if I didn't have that at 4:30 in the morning or if it were 12 dollars a bottle instead of 2, I'd be bumming. I'm sure I'm not fully educated in both sides of the argument as I admittedly do not keep up with current events or politics, but I know there are a huge number of shite jobs in this country that just wouldn't get done if it weren't for illegal immigrants. Again I'll suggest people to check out that show, two thumbs up from me. Not just that episode either.

[ironchop]

I call it the equivalent of every passenger on a cruise ship running toward the starboard side at once. Quickly, the ship will capsize and sink taking us all with it.

I agree immigration needs to be of the legal variety ONLY.

I say we adopt an "exchange student" kind of program......take all those who are capable of working but refuse to and trade those deadbeats for some people who WANT to come here and be productive....a "Swap", if you will.

[ironchop]

John, I dig Spurlock's work. IIRC, didn't he do "Supersize Me"?

[RIDE-RED 250r]

John,

Ironchop touches on a very good point. You are absolutely right that there are alot of jobs out there that some Americans won't do... And the other half of the problem is that our government makes it all too easy for some able bodied people to choose NOT to take those jobs by making them comfortable in their non-working lifestyle. I believe the answer to one problem will also solve the other, as the 2 are linked. The US labor participation rate is currently at 62.7%, the lowest since 1978 according to a report by Business Insider. Kind of an interesting number after we have been told for so long that unemployment is "low" at 5.8% as of Oct 2014. But what they never talk about as they fuss about the unemployment rate number is the fact they only are counting people who are collecting unemployment benefits. People who are no longer collecting the benefit are not included in this number. Many are finding ways to get on SSDI and never work again these days. It is nothing short of shady reporting by news and government to hang such weight on the unemployment number when it is clearly not a good indicator of the percentage of eligible population that is or is not working. I surely do believe that we should help those in true need. I believe there should be a safety net, but not a hammock.

I think Ben Franklin was spot on with this statement and our state of affairs today proves him right- “I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”


The only thing different nowadays is that via the strong arm of government, not only are they making the poor more dependent, but they are making those who are working and contributing more poor along with them....This is a lose-lose for all of us.

I still firmly believe in orderly and legal immigration, which is also required by the constitution, Article 4, section 4. But, if a component of working toward that solution involves more personnel and maybe re-working the process to streamline it while maintaining a prudent level of vetting of prospective immigrants, then I would be supportive of that.

The biggest problem with this influx of a truly unknown number of people who come here illegally with unknown backgrounds is that it does pose a threat to national security and public safety. Now, without seeing actual numbers (because there really are none but rough estimates) I am sure that most people are coming here for work... But, with those people we also get the criminal element. US citizens are being raped, killed, abducted and taken over the border to be killed or sold into prostitution, all sorts of other things from our border towns. Much, if not all of it perpetrated by Mexican gang members... It does happen, more frequently than most of the media will admit or even report on, because stories like that do not fit their narrative and their support of illegal immigration. It doesn't take much searching to find news stories along these lines. I don't want to import more criminals.

Obviously, there is more to this problem than simply shutting down the border.. But there is also more to it than throwing our hands up and letting it keep happening. First and foremost, these dirty politicians need to uphold their oaths to the Constitution and quite playing political football with this issue.. like they do with EVERY issue...

[ironchop]

The biggest problem with this influx of a truly unknown number of people who come here illegally with unknown backgrounds is that it does pose a threat to national security and public safety..... I don't want to import more criminals....


this statement says it all and defines my reservations about having a flood of people overwhelm the borders illegally just as much as my reservations about just doing away with borders and immigration laws altogether which is what the current administration wants to do.....the third point being the fact that our economy cannot support unlimited influx. Any politician who tells you otherwise is an idiot. I have watched the construction industry as well as farming take a huge hit whereas it concerns the actual worker. I sold my drywall contracting business in the late 90`s because I couldn`t support my family any longer due to the fact that the influx of cheap labor (which exploited these people at every turn besides killing me in the name of almighty profit increase) reduced my gross income by HALF in under five years. Same amount of work and in some cases more work but I was getting underbid by half by immigrant crews. These General Contractors were exploiting these people to increase profit and it drove Americans out of work. BTW, contrary to what wannabe economist politicians tell you, the reduced labor cost DID NOT reduce the price of new homes as they had promised. Prices went up...more lies from greedy liars.

John you pointed out the price of orange juice and how cheap farm labor keeps it affordable and I agree to an extent that a 12$ bottle of juice would suck. I has gone way beyond this. As immigrant labor has been exploited here, American companies, through NAFTA, have exported cheap foodstuffs into the Mexican economy as well under free trade (no tariffs) and they are starving Mexican farmers out south of the border who can`t compete with industrialized farming and cheap labor in American Produce. It isn`t just our countrymen that suffer the policies of global corporations.

I don`t disdain Capitalism......I`ve studied communism and socialism extensively when I thought I might be a Leftist and, frankly, these alternate systems don`t work for long before everyone but the Elite are starving too. Capitalism requires checks and balances just as Democracy does but our current system is still more viable and sustainable (with these checks in place) than ANY other form of economy or government tried so far (except straight-up Barter).....Truth is, ANY system of governing or economy won`t last long at all when corruption is rampant.

Folks should ask themselves why any politician is so rabidly opposed to closed borders or controlled immigration. Then ask yourselves how many of these people also live in a ten million dollar home in East Hampton or Orange County Cali while employing nannies, gardeners, pool boys, cooks, maids, and assistants whom don`t make anywhere near a living wage. I would suspect the reason might have something to do with cheap wage slaves ensuring their masters can afford more than one supercar in the driveway or maybe more trips to Tiffany`s, Rodeo Drive, or $25,000 a plate dinners for their favorite Political figures.

If a guy like Gates rakes in over a billion a year clear then tells you "WE" need to do more for the impoverished, ask yourself why Gates and the like can`t live on say a mere $10 million a year and then donate his remaining $990,000,000 A YEAR to eradicating hunger or poverty. An influx of cash like that every year could possibly feed the entire continent of Africa......You may fall for his ridiculous answer but you can`t deny the TRUTH.....guys like him need to STFU....I find it all highly ironic that the people pretending to be the most altruistic, paternalistic, and patronizing to the rest of the world are also the biggest economic pirates, thieves, and scavengers World History has ever witnessed. If anyone thinks any millionaire politician truly gives a damn about the survival of the little guy, then you are fooling yourself. The truth ill catch up with us all very soon.

[fabiodriven]

Great thread. I prefer to get a lot of my news, current events, and political explanations from this site as I've stated before. It's threads like these that help me catch up on at least some things. I love it when I'm discussing a big issue with someone and I reference the origin of my point of view on something, such as immigration for example, the subject of this thread. "Well I was discussing it with the guys on the three wheeler site". Then they really understand I know my stuff, lmfao!

[ironchop]

I like off topic discussions here too because elsewhere, most other forums I once frequented are kind of a one-sided audience. Some members of those audiences aren`t too intelligent either.

I like this Open Forum because there is enough diversity in opinion and intelligent perspective to make these threads interesting and informative. I dislike being agreed with all the time or disagreed with all the time... either way is boring and pointless.

I`ll be the first to admit that there are opinions stated here on 3WW that made me rethink some of my own opinions and bias and that can`t be a bad thing.

[Dirtcrasher]

I left this window open when I saw it posted until I could watch it.

Terrible things happening to human beings.

What a mess this world is.....

Thanks for sharing.

[El Camexican]

Did this get much exposure in the States? It went over really well in Mexico:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T6PHBlUg3U

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Nope..thats the first i have heard that statement from him. Interesting to say the least....

[El Camexican]

Nope..thats the first i have heard that statement from him. Interesting to say the least....

They just released a movie here called "La Dictadura Perfecta" It starts with a remake of that speech. If they release it up there its a must see.

[sledcrazyinCT]

The we need immigrants to do the jobs Americans won't do is BS people....Don't let em fool you that if an American were paid to do the low end menial jobs it would be too expensive.

The problem is the govt assistance programs that let bums who are simply lazy sponge off the rest who are raised to work for a living, save until they can afford to buy stuff with their own money, and have pride or self respect not to take a hand out unless they are truly disabled or down on their luck.

When public assistance pays out an equivalent salary that someone else has to work a 9 to 5 to take home $35,000 a year of course there is a mentality of why should I pick oranges or dig ditches. Stop providing money for folks who can legitimately work or at least drug test for the welfare check and all of a sudden those menial jobs would get applicants.

[ironchop]

I propose a trade.

I'll gladly sit at The Gate and trade one worthless able-bodied welfare con artist 'American' for one hard working and willing Latin Americans

Most of my friends say they would have stayed home if they.could afford a decent life. I say since the US likes to overthrow "regimes" elsewhere in the world perhaps we could help our southern neighbors overthrow their oppressive governments so they might have a chance at Prosperity. My friend Jose had once told me when I asked what the problet was he said "Guns. If only we had as much guns and gun rights as Americans do, we would have thrown these people in the Gulf already"

[Scootertrash]

My friend Jose had once told me when I asked what the problem was he said "Guns. If only we had as much guns and gun rights as Americans do, we would have thrown these people in the Gulf already"

Why do you suppose every Soicialist/Communist/Dictatorship/Third World shytehole doesn't allow their citizens firearms??

[ironchop]

That's Mr. Arce-Cancino's opinion as well, Scooter.

The Cartels have guns, the Federales have guns and the people got jack squat

[redsox]

Good thread. So much to say but not time for everything. I'll start with a hot-button issue for me. Picking on Bill Gates. Bill Gates should give away his money???? WHY?? Bill Gates earned every nickel. He's smarter than you. He invented something that changed the world and made life better for everyone. He EARNED that money. he can do whatever he pleases with it. He can burn it. He can save it. He can help the poor with it. (Which he does, far more than ANY Government program in history) What has he done that is wrong? Punishing success and individual accomplishment is the a GREAT PLAN for prosperity. :crazy: If Bill Gates gave all his money away to Africa, we'd have one more poor American and Africa would still suck. Everyone wants to tell the rich what to do with their money. Everyone knows better than the rich. Yet, it seems to me, if we were smarter than the rich, somehow more economically savvy, WE'd be rich? Right? The thinking is so flawed, it makes me nuts. Less rich people does not equal less poor people. Less rich people equals MORE poor people. The economy is not a finite number. If I have more, you do not necessarily have less because of it. Listen, when the tide comes in, every boat rises.

[ironchop]

Gates can hoard all the money he wants. I just dont want him being able to have such a huge political influence. The kinds of policies these people lobby for and donate millions to have been slowly bleeding folks like me dry for decades now. Im over it. Money doesn't mean you know a damn thing about whats best.for me and neither does it make him better than me.
I dont want anymore billionaires pretending to know whats best for me.They are almost ALWAYS wrong

[ironchop]

BTW, I meant to add that Gates was used merely as an example.

When it comes to the undisputed King of buying World Domination, one would have to look to George Soros. There is none higher in the public eye at least.

At least Gates is an American. Soros has no nationality and therefore is out purely for Ego.

Its always amazed me that its even legal for US Politicians to.accept campaign donations from foreign citizens and countries.

[ironchop]

Whatever happened too......IT`S A FELONY TO HIRE AN ILLEGAL ALIEN ?:wondering:wondering:eek:

I wonder that myself. I have never heard of them enforcing it ever. I know in residential construction, the American contractors look the other way cuz they make more by exploiting their status.

In Manufacturing, all I do know is they all presented IDs and SS cards that matched up. If they were undocumented, we couldn't tell any difference.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I wonder that myself. I have never heard of them enforcing it ever. I know in residential construction, the American contractors look the other way cuz they make more by exploiting their status.

In Manufacturing, all I do know is they all presented IDs and SS cards that matched up. If they were undocumented, we couldn't tell any difference.

And don't expect that to change any time soon... especially with the current regime.

And I'm with Redsox.. I have no grudge against "the rich".. No poor man ever signed my paycheck. What I don't like are the rich who try to slam shut the door behind them by lobbying for and using government regulation to facilitate it. It kind of equates to celebrities who run around flapping their lips preaching to us about how WE the masses should live while exempting themselves from the very ideas they would like us saddled with. As if their opinion matters more than any other working stiff citizen walking down the street..... To borrow a phrase from Andrew Wilkow- "Socialism is for the people, and not the socialist", and then "ideas so good, they have to be made mandatory".

[El Camexican]

Whatever happened too......IT`S A FELONY TO HIRE AN ILLEGAL ALIEN ?:wondering:wondering:eek:

This guys says: "Ill eagle fall from sky"
209621

[redsox]

If a guy like Gates rakes in over a billion a year clear then tells you "WE" need to do more for the impoverished, ask yourself....

I think when Gates says "WE", he's addressing his billionaire brethren. Not a ham n' egger like yours truly.


I dont want anymore billionaires pretending to know whats best for me.They are almost ALWAYS wrong

Could you take the word "billionaires" out of this statement and still feel the same way? If so, then you and I are more on the same page than you think. There is a short list of people that know whats good for me. And Bill Gates ain't on it. Money and Power have become so convoluted that they're almost synonyms. There is a subtile and important difference though. Money allows you to pay others to do your bidding. That is really something. You can find someone who is willing to trade what is theirs for your money. Be it self-respect, time, family, goods, services, their basic humanity sometimes. All given in exchange for your Money. Power is different. Sure, it allows you the same control over others. More control. You can still take all of the above listed items from someone, BUT, the difference is where the choice lies. If I decide to shovel crap for five dollar an hour to feed my family, I have made that decision for Money. If the Government decides I MUST shovel crap for five dollars an hour to feed my family, THEY have made the decision. They have exercised POWER. Don't fear the rich. Fear the Government.

[fabiodriven]

The we need immigrants to do the jobs Americans won't do is BS people....Don't let em fool you that if an American were paid to do the low end menial jobs it would be too expensive.

I admittedly don't know a whole lot about this, so I'd like to know how the prices of so many things will not go up, including various foods or pre-assembled trusses or whatever you see immigrants doing, if you have to pay people more money per hour to do them. In the particular example of the farm used in "Inside Man", it ends up paying about $6 an hour those particular immigrants make, and they work extremely hard for it. Minimum wage is $7.50. That's a dollar and a half more per hour per employee across the board. You think the farmers are going to soak that up or we are? That's just the beginning.

You just will not get American people who will work half as hard as that for even $8 an hour, you just won't find it. These people will shrivel up and die before they will work half as hard as that for double the money. They are all addicted to something, both legal and illegal, softened up on cheeseburgers and pizza, every one of them has an "ailment" or a "condition" for some reason or another, some crutch to lean on or benefit from, addictions count people! That's a disease! Wheelchair because you're a fat trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro slob? Sure! Here's one with a motor and a trailer for chicken wings. Just keep em fat, high, calm, and happy. What needs to be realized is that these people are so hard on the tit, they cannot get off of it. They rely on it, they depend on it. They will die if left to their own devices or if they're required to fend for themselves. Many already turn to crime far before the thought of getting a job crosses their mind, so if you make it even harder for them than it already is, is that supposed to be a boot in the ass? It's too hard already, let's make it harder for them and now they'll work. Doesn't sound right to me, I don't think that will work.

I'm not saying that I disagree with everything you have to say, but your first two sentences I do disagree with. This country, as of this point in time right now, absolutely needs illegal immigrant workers to maintain the current economy the way it is. If you take cheap labor away, someone else is going to have to pay. A good portion of us on here are the "we" that end up footing the bill for many of these things. If there is a way to keep these people out of this country and not let them sponge off of our system without sending the economy into turmoil that's great. As of right now though, this country does need and does rely on these people.

[ironchop]

While I despise the idea of the Marxist version of redistribution of capital because its nothing more than a re-badged welfare state, I do not subscribe to the totally Free Market = Good ideology either.

Redsox, I make it look like I paint the rich with a broad brush and I dont mean to come off that way. I just have trouble conveying what Im thinking with words.

For example, Soros made billions by intentionally crashing the British Pound. The eldest JP Morgan made piles by redeeming his US currency for gold to the point of nearly emptying the Gold reserves which backed all US currency at that time in US history. Then he used his holdings to force the Gov to buy back enough gold to back its issued currency to prevent a currency collapse at twice the previous price. There is nothing here to admire, respect, or aspire to and I posit that these two are grand examples of the failures of a Free Market and an indicator that some humans cannot be trusted with the right to do as they please.

[Billy Golightly]

Hey FABS.....so disappointed in this piece ! You want to know who i rely on......five finger Mary ! She goes fast or slow or goes tight and she`s always ready when i need her !! I`ve watched what this problem has done to the great state of ca. for over 30yrs and it makes me sick ! It takes billions out of the economy every year in ways you don`t even think of !........and then they come back and rob the job site or your house or your car ! Or you walk next to a building and it stinks like piss cause they live there ! They are a huge burden to this economy and we need to STOP THE DOUBLE STANDARD AND ENFORCE THE LAW !! Or FABS why don`t you open the doors to YOUR home and let them butt floss with your best towels ? Sink or swim life sucks and then you die ! Rather then waste my tax dollars on this the feds should have taken control of the Medical insurance industry of fraud and fleece the public...... and offer FREE Medical insurance with your payed taxes ! This Government is as crooked as Mexico's...... i`m waiting for them to DEVALUE the dollar like Mexico did the Peso years ago ! Lets see $1,500.00 for that cheese burger......i can`t count that high ! :):):wondering:(:cry::eek::wondering:(:cry::eek::l ol:
I'm not sure how may more times I can read over of your posts while going wtf and not permaban you. ..

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[redsox]

First off, i find it interesting that a thread on immigration has almost instantly become a thread on the economy. Its scary to me how much the two are linked. Fabs, I agree that we are using the illegals as a crutch, and, to a very REAL extent, we need them now. If they were all gone tomorrow it would be very bad for the economy. But that is not going to happen. This problem took generations to be created and i feel like it will take generations to resolve. If it can ever be resolved. I agree that we lack a capable lower-middle-class workforce. But why? Do we blame the 400 pound, Walmart quad riding, soda guzzling, sloth thats collecting every benefit Uncle Barry has to offer? They disgust me, but i don't blame them. Why, why, why would they go out into the orange groves and pick oranges in the heat for $7 an hour when they can earn that same standard of living by staying home? Principle?? Good luck with that. They'd be foolish not to take the handout. So, who gets the blame? Do we blame farmer brown and the rest of the orange growers? They're trying to make a living. Doing whats best for their families. If fatso won't work because the Government is paying him for nothing, Farmer brown will hire Jose. Besides, Uncle barry raised minimum wage to $12 and hour so Farmer brown can't afford to hire Fatty, even if fatty would show up to work. But Jose will work, and work cheap. So it keeps the juice flowing and farmer Brown happy. They earn, and pay taxes, and the trough gets filled for fatty to plunder. Round and round we go. So, do we blame Jose? Hell no. Jose is doing whats best for his family. He left a third world s-hole to come here. The land of opportunity. He has health care and his kids can go to school and become doctors and lawyers. thanks to Uncle Barry. I'd do it too, for my family. What is jose supposed to do? sit home in some jungle hovel and suffer on principle? Condemn his children and his children's children to lives as bad as his? Because he should? Good luck with that. It goes against basic human drives. So, we can't blame fatty, and we can't blame farmer brown, and we can't blame Jose. Who is left to blame?????? But blame for what? If Jose is happy, and Farmer Brown is happy, and Fatty is happy, then why stop any of it? Because it cannot sustain itself, and people like Ironchop get squeezed out. Relegated to one of the three categories, like it or not. With no chance to move upward. That is why The United States is doomed. Jose will vote for Uncle Barry, Fatty will vote for Uncle Barry, and Farmer Brown will vote for Uncle Barry. AND BARRY WILL HAVE POWER. And there just aren't enough Ironchops or Redsox to stop it. The scales are already tipped. Its a numbers game, and the working middle class American has lost.

[fabiodriven]

Glamy you're out of line. I don't understand what you find so appalling about my post, but all it is is the truth. All I said is if you take cheap workers away who is going to replace them? Surely you must have an answer for that question, no? I didn't say to welcome illegals with open arms or to give them anything and I have no idea why you're tying me to such statements. Who is your nominee to do all the shite jobs they're doing for next to no money? I'm all ears!

[fabiodriven]

OK so pay someone $16 an hour to do a job that used to be done by a man doing it for $6 an hour. Who's eating that $10 an hour?

[sledcrazyinCT]

You just will not get American people who will work half as hard as that for even $8 an hour, you just won't find it. These people will shrivel up and die before they will work half as hard as that for double the money. They are all addicted to something, both legal and illegal, softened up on cheeseburgers and pizza, every one of them has an "ailment" or a "condition" for some reason or another, some crutch to lean on or benefit from, addictions count people! That's a disease! Wheelchair because you're a fat trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro slob? Sure! Here's one with a motor and a trailer for chicken wings. Just keep em fat, high, calm, and happy. What needs to be realized is that these people are so hard on the tit, they cannot get off of it. They rely on it, they depend on it. They will die if left to their own devices or if they're required to fend for themselves. Many already turn to crime far before the thought of getting a job crosses their mind, so if you make it even harder for them than it already is, is that supposed to be a boot in the ass? It's too hard already, let's make it harder for them and now they'll work. Doesn't sound right to me, I don't think that will work.

OK we just keep a bad situation going? Addicts need to go cold turkey- if some die in the process that is a fact of life. I don't believe every person like Redsox described is just going to call it quits. Most humans will want to live, sure some will go out and steal instead of work, sure some might continue to do meth or heroine and OD, but as glamy pointed out if he needs to eat he is going to take any job and not a hand out, there are many others with this same mindset.

Not to get into a huge debate, but if the gov't benefits dried up then there is, or will be, a plan B for many people. Redsox mentions the takers are not to blame and for the most part it is human nature to take the path of least resistance.

Lazy is a mindset or a lifestyle created by politicians to buy votes.... Lazy is a life style cultivated on many college campuses...the fact a person can graduate with a four year degree simply does not entitle them to start on the top rung of society, or to come into a new job fresh out of school with zero real life work experience and start at a better rate or position then a senior employee.

Excessive entitlements have caused a great deal of this problem, pull the plug and get back to the basics, when the EBT card stops working the baby daddy gets off his arse and finds a JOB. Illegal immigrants are just another crutch to keep LAZY capable people from taking care of themselves.

As for keeping costs down and getting the shitty jobs done if you are rotting in jail and not a convicted murderer start working at ZERO salary.209644

For the record I approve of legal immigration do it the right way and I have no issue at all.

[ironchop]

I noticed a fundamental shift in the "virtues" we used to teach our children right about the time I was graduating Highschool. It may have been prevalent before I noticed but nevertheless, there was a shift. The 80s brought us "role models" like tom cruise in Risky Business, Douglas in that Wall Street flick, and even our "family sitcom" produced a whole slew of Alex P Keatons who were driven by the almighty dollar or a whole mess of "tragically rich" children like Silver Spoons, Different Strokes, or the movie The Toy with Pryor. Point being we were all taught that MONETARY success was all that mattered. You are judged by what you can afford to wipe your ass with and even a ghetto child can find sweet redemption as long as some Old money white guy adopts them and saves them from their predicament or if they were lucky enough to attend a prestigious private school like the girls in Facts of Life. On the other end of the spectrum of Law, Miami Vice taught us that to have a Testarossa and a beachfront crib filled with poofy-haired bikini wearing pool landscape was the ultimate achievement and measure of success if even it could land you in the GreyBar motel eventually. Our working class heroes were either tragically unhappy (like Al Bundy or Dan from Roseanne), forever struggling like the families in One Day at a Time.

There were no romantizations of the Blue Collar heroes. We tried in vain to portray Money as NOT the solution to everyone`s problems with shows like Dallas and Falcon Crest when all that really just whitewashed the idea and left all of us thinking that at least rich folks have interesting drama but at the end of the day, they still have a $1,000 bottle of Scotch poolside while contemplating their "problems".....Like it or not, television drives culture right or wrong and culture has a tremendous impact on shaping young minds which is still evident today. Only difference being today`s culture is shaped on social media. We were taught that money was the ONLY path to happiness even if it wasn`t true. We were taught that ultimately, only Money mattered whereas it concerned the way folks and society judge one another. My family was FARMERS but my mom shunned all that and pushed us into college because she and most of my highschool teachers taught us that you gain prestige and respect by the car you drive and the address you come home to. Honor, Integrity, Mastery are no longer taught to our children and if they are, they are considered interchangeable and optional........cheat at tests, cheat in sports, cheat your investors, cheat the Government, cheat the constituents, lie on your resume, lie to your wife, lie to yourself, lie to your boss, lie to the cops, and lie to the IRS....all will be rewarded with women, fame, riches, material things, careers, trophies, and FREEDOM.

what happens if your lies and cheating threaten to destroy you rather than enrich you? Well modern Society has a fix for that too....a "Bailout"

Greed and every other selfish sin has thoroughly infected our society and this is why nobody wants a job working hard for $250 a week when you can sell dope for $1000 every two days. Nobody wants to flip a burger until they get off work, jump into their embarrassing cars and drive home to their mobile home park when the Freebie check affords them twice the standard of living, a free section 8 apartment, and all their "leaders" convince them that they are "entitled" to this SHYTE because Life=No Fair. There are NO rewards for folks with "principles". Nobody worships the guy who picks up your trash can once a week. We don`t even mow our own yards anymore because we think we are entitled to a slick lawn without having to get dirty over it. We don`t reward hard work. We don`t encourage anyone to emulate a Blue Collar worker. We vilify the Trades and the "troubled kids" whom learn a trade and we exhalt the 4yr drinking program often referred to as "college". We even convince everyone already adult that the only salvation for losing their jobs due to the actions of others is for YOU to go BACK to school and drop another 35K on another degree....because your predicament is your fault......unless, of course, you never intended on working and then your predicament is Society`s fault and Society`s problem.

Don`t work on your lawn....pay some Mexican to do that. He`s just eating up your tax dollars getting free healthcare and whatnot
Don`t deal with the pain.....buy a pill or pay a doctor because you deserve to feel no pain whatsoever
Don`t be self sufficient.....because that makes you an "anti-social" freak
Don`t grow your own food.....pay some Mexican to grow it for you
Don`t even get out of your car....we have drive thru windows for everything now
Don`t work hard....life is short and it means you are either self deprecating, uneducated, or unintelligent
Don`t pay full price for American goods....that Chinese 9 year old has a family to support too and the more you save at Walmart, the more liquor and drugs you can afford to ease the pain of your empty and unfulfilling lives. Plus how else will you afford that house (read: respect and prestige)?
Don`t take responsibility for your actions......they are merely the result of a two-hundred year old leadership of some white guy and of society as a whole
Don`t raise your kids right.....it "takes a village" and children should be honored and catered to only because some guy who wrote a book about how to raise kids said so.
Don`t tell the Truth....it`s often ugly and hurts the feelings of those with easily hurt feelings
Don`t be nice.....nice people finish last
Don`t be charitable.....it`s a sign of weakness

Two people.....A Hedge Fund manager and a Sanitation Engineer walk into a school. The Hedge Fund manager lied on his resume, tax returns, to his wife, to his investors, to himself, cheated and swindled and makes 9 million a year, pays someone to change his kid`s diapers and sends them away to a prestigious school. He has no loyalty, no honor, no Integrity and yet he has 4 vacation homes and a 400,000$ Bentley.............Sanitation Engineer works 14 hour days, changes his own kids diapers, drives his kids to school himself in a `76 AMC Pacer before his 14 hr day at work starts, is loyal to his wife, loyal to his kids, teaches his kids that lying and thieving make you a loser. He makes 41K a year.

now these are ONLY examples for the sake of conversation BUT.......regardless of the lack of personal integrity and being openly selfish, the Hedge Fund manager will be the guy everyone wants to be. He`s the guy who is the example when your guidance counselor tells you "you can be anything you want to be". He`s the guy most parents mean when they say "you need to go to college and get a degree if you ever hope to amount to anything in Life" It doesn`t matter if the Antichrist himself is the Wolf of WallStreet because Money (Power) is the ultimate goal. He`s the guy who makes the commencement speech at NYU for the class of 2015. The Sanitation engineer makes a speech at the end of your driveway regarding your being over the established curb limit of just 6 bags of trash.

The "Sanitation Engineer"? Well, he`s the sad chap whom people look at and say "I`m glad I got an education". He`s the guy whom gets booted at the front door of your local Country Club. He`s the guy nobody wants to be giving their kids a pep talk. He`s the one everyone assumes is stupid because if he were even remotely intelligent, then he would not be a lowly sanitation engineer.....Money = Success = Happiness = Worthy of your love, admiration, and respect.....all this despite the fact that he is 100 times the Man that wall street snake is but being a Rich little punk is far more desirable than being a courageous and hard working Manly Man....Besides, you don`t want to live in a van down by the River do you?

Until we remove these stigmas, nothing else will change.......raising minimum wage won`t help. Welfare won`t help. Class Warfare won`t help. Charity won`t help.

If Money weren`t worshipped like a paper God, then MAYBE folks would not be so quick to deny a fair living to other folks because they feel the need to hoard every penny they can so they can afford to lay about like a wannabe Roman Emperor.

I teach my kids to be FRUGAL (except with trikes lol).....I teach them honesty, integrity, and honor. I teach them Loyalty and the value of hard work. Most of all I teach them that DESPITE the current accepted "examples" of the Unscrupulous permeating our Nation, that only those previously aforementioned character traits are desirable.....rich OR poor

I`m probably just dreaming

[83ATC185]

I'm glad to see someone else sees things the way i do. In my eyes, success isn't an expensive car or big house or anything material for that matter. If you're doing what you want in life, and have the decency to support yourself and have the integrity to stand up for what you believe and not conform to anyone's mold for your life, that's success. I see this country as being full of people that don't ever get an opportunity to express themselves in the way they want or do what they want to with their lives, because the conform to the molds and the ideas of success that every one else has for them.

I feel like this is the reason a lot of our freedoms are slowly disappearing. We are all striving to be one thing. People are predictable and soft and have a certain set of needs that must be met before they are happy. I see myself slowly changing from a "got to have it" to taking a step back and asking myself what do i really need? What do i really want out of my life? Am i going to spend the rest of my life stuck being what everyone wants me to be or am i going to do what makes sense to me?

Ironchop your post was spot on. The world sees everything wrong as ok, so long as you get one step higher on the ladder. Too bad what no one sees is there's nothing at the top.

[sweetip2000]

This is what happens when gummintZ offer free hand outs at the expense of others. Its ok you can take your meds and go back to sleep now. Ignorance is a fashion .......

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Guys, people need to see this. The video is very graphic, but you can just read the story if you would rather not watch the video. To say it is disturbing is a gross understatement. http://pamelageller.com/2015/02/watch-islamic-state-video-of-pilot-being-burnt-alive-jordan-vows-revenge.html/

Now, all of the economic debate on illegal immigration aside, and whether it is an economic gain or loss for us...

The people doing this found a way to use our own commercial jet liners as weapons. (I do not believe 911 was an inside job)

Does anyone taking part in this conversation honestly believe that these people cannot or will not find a way to exploit our open borders??? These people want to bring this kind of terror to the streets of Everytown USA.

Just remember this story the next time Uncle Barry (as Redsox put it) preaches to us about how islam is a religion of peace..and that not all muslims are terrorists. That may be so, but damn too many of them are, and they need to be dealt with!


This alone is enough reason for me to fully support a controlled border with orderly, legal immigration, and with thorough vetting of prospective immigrants.

With the world in turmoil as it is, secure the border now. Then we can have a conversation on what to do with illegals already here, and having a program that would allow Mexicans to come here and work legally if they choose and after they are vetted.

[redsox]

My defense of the rich should not be taken as an indictment of the middle class, or any class for that matter. I understand the sanitation/executive analogy. i would argue that the comparison is flawed though. Your example compared a decent person that worked in sanitation with a scumbag executive. Apples and oranges. There are scum executives, and scum sanitation workers, just as there are good people in all classes. This was a discussion about immigration that turned to an economy discussion. Is the argument now that if you have economic success you're unethical and a snake? I don't agree. People get rich from hard work and dedication. Not all rich people get rich that way, but many do. Being smart, thinking ahead, and working hard at something you love can make you rich in this country. There are not a lot of places that can say the same. The closer we come to socialism, the further we get from this fact.

Ride-Red, i saw that video. sickening. This is what we're up against. Nightmare.

[ironchop]

Yer hung up too much thinking im indicting the rich or successful. As I pointed out this was merely an example for the sake of discussion....

Let me clarify
Two guys, different ethics. The one who is most likely to be hailed as a role model for all is the one who brings home more cash every week. Even if he sucks as a human. Your bank account and pile of material goods is all that matters to anyone. Your character means nothing. This is WRONG in my opinion. This is the basis for my example. There are no hidden messages of "eat the rich" in my posts and frankly, I don`t understand why you are obsessing over this perception for your last few replies. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE RICH. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SNAKES......Rich snakes get to decide national policy. Poor snakes do not. Arguing that there are snakes in every demographic is a moot point. The only snake with a voice is a rich snake. That's just how it is.

[ironchop]

Econ is not off topic for this discussion. People aren't pouring over the border for American schools or American healthcare. They come for American money.

Unchecked immigration destroys the economy. Thinking it helps is Television News logic.

I don`t get my facts from TV. I go to the sources. I talk with immigrants nearly every day. At work, at lunch, on my street, at the doctor`s office. These folks are everywhere n Bowling Green. We have Bosnians, Cameroonians, Mexicans, Cambodians, Guatemalans, El Salvadoreans, one guy from Belize who wants to go back, a few Serbs, a lot of eastern Indians Hindu, Muslim, and Sikh, a lot of Chinese, some Vietnamese. The Feds had decided this part of Kentucky was a good place for "integration". I could go on and on but you get the point.

So they make American dollars but where do you think those dollars go? They don`t go right back into the American economy. Almost every immigrant I ever spoke with says they send a large portion of their earnings HOME to help their families abroad and the line at the Walmart Western Union office every Friday will confirm this. American dollars are leaving the American economy pure and simple

[83ATC185]

^as well as to have their children, who will be born citizens here. Illegal immigration is barely noticeable at first, just extra help on the job, whatever, but years pass, those immigrants have kids, the parents move back, forcefully or otherwise, and their children become pipelines for our money. I agree that at this point, our economy cant survive without them. it goes without saying that anytime our society leans on anything, be it the help of illegal immigrants, or government programs or anything but our own abilities and desires to better ourselves, it puts our country in great danger.

People don't realize that there is a price to be paid for not doing something yourself. The only people that realize that seem to be the people that do things for themselves. That said, i feel like there is no way to end the problems we have today in this country.

The only way things will change is if the slate is wiped clean by some event and people are forced to do for themselves, which will in effect turn us into a third world country because we no longer even have the ability to produce what we need even if we did have the desire.

As for our borders, i feel like the only thing that will stop illegal immigration is when there's nothing to be gained by coming here. That, and drawing a line in the sand and the order to fire at will.

As of late i have quit watching the news, and quit following world events and what Uncle Barry is saying today. I do understand the importance of keeping up with whats going on in the world, but all this stuff i heard was making me question what was real, what wasn't, and what was [I]really[I] important in the world. I can tell you guys, the difference it has made in my life is incredible. I'm a much happier person. I am prepared for and content with whatever happens in this life because at this point its beyond our control.

[ironchop]

Guys, people need to see this. The video is very graphic, but you can just read the story if you would rather not watch the video. To say it is disturbing is a gross understatement. http://pamelageller.com/2015/02/watch-islamic-state-video-of-pilot-being-burnt-alive-jordan-vows-revenge.html/

Now, all of the economic debate on illegal immigration aside, and whether it is an economic gain or loss for us...

The people doing this found a way to use our own commercial jet liners as weapons. (I do not believe 911 was an inside job)

Does anyone taking part in this conversation honestly believe that these people cannot or will not find a way to exploit our open borders??? These people want to bring this kind of terror to the streets of Everytown USA.

Just remember this story the next time Uncle Barry (as Redsox put it) preaches to us about how islam is a religion of peace..and that not all muslims are terrorists. That may be so, but damn too many of them are, and they need to be dealt with!


This alone is enough reason for me to fully support a controlled border with orderly, legal immigration, and with thorough vetting of prospective immigrants.

With the world in turmoil as it is, secure the border now. Then we can have a conversation on what to do with illegals already here, and having a program that would allow Mexicans to come here and work legally if they choose and after they are vetted.

Yeah we have already locally experienced this but it was with LEGAL immigrants who were Iraqis. The storage facility where they were storing machine guns and some rocket launchers is across the street from where I work. Check it:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/30/justice/kentucky-terror-sentences/index.html

[redsox]

Chop. I agree completely. I don't know how I became the defender of the rich, as it was just one of the points I wanted to get to about the early comments of the video. But it just went that way, i guess. I never meant to get stuck on it. I'll move on to another little criticism i had of the video. Very early on, (first 13 seconds) the reporter tosses out a buzz word that always burns my ears. Climate change. People getting displaced because of climate change??? The only people displaced by climate change are the old-money, New England snow birds who are buying homes in boca from our good friend and founder who shall remain nameless. Anytime the climate card is pulled, i question the motives and politics of the source. Vice Media made the video. i did a little reading and they're an eclectic group. Once on the PBS dole from NYC public funds, they've gone through a bunch of evolutions including a sex publication, having Rupert Murdoch as a minority investor, and having CNN fail at a buyout. Now it seems they've picked up the pieces of what was the DIY network and are funded by the same people at ESPN and Walt Disney. They're growing. In my opinion, they subscribe to the "Europe is Better" model of American Neo-Liberalism. (is that a thing?) If you don't know what I mean, i'll give you an example. Remember when Madonna started speaking with a British accent? Thats exactly what I mean. Its not a traditional, Jimmy Carter Liberalism. It more of an uber-cool, post Al Gore, computer age, hipster, i'm-26-years-old-but-know-better-than-you, liberalism. I think the video has its moments, but there is production value and sensationalism apparent everywhere. I'm of the school that if you lie to me a little, you're lying to me a lot. So, its tough to take their numbers and stats at face value. i don't have the time (or ability, or desire) to check them, but i'd bet my last beer that the numbers are inflated. So, i'll just sit here like an old man and mutter "fiddlesticks." In closing, i'll answer the question you posed in the title of the thread. YES.

[ironchop]

.... In my opinion, they subscribe to the "Europe is Better" model of American Neo-Liberalism. (is that a thing?) If you don't know what I mean, i'll give you an example. Remember when Madonna started speaking with a British accent? Thats exactly what I mean. Its not a traditional, Jimmy Carter Liberalism. It more of an uber-cool, post Al Gore, computer age, hipster, i'm-26-years-old-but-know-better-than-you, liberalism. I think the video has its moments, but there is production value and sensationalism apparent everywhere......

LMFAO.....I agree wholeheartedly

And its funny you mentioned that distinction because it is ABSOLUTELY the kind of liberalism that our own current crop of leadership/celebs want for America. The Europe model. I forgot to mention that one of the points I wanted to make was that when you get the "Europe model" you get European problems as the video depicts. The difference between you and I and those type of Liberals is THEY see it as a humanitarian issue (to let them in) and you and I see it as a dangerous precedent and potentially deadly issue for ALL people and not just those who are stuffed under a Moroccan Ford Escort. I hope that makes sense. While I do feel for these people it is from a stand-off kind of perspective. While I want an Ebola victim to get some potentially life-saving treatment, I don`t want that Ebola patient getting flown into the USA thereby putting the entire country at risk and if it means they die waiting well one dead is still better than thousands. That's the best analogy I can think of.

Yes the video I put up would indeed have a neo liberal slant to it. It was a liberal media outfit who made the entire thing. Anymore these days, I find myself playing "info disseminator" with so many stories and documentaries because it seems "slant" is so prevalent. I figured this much, the actual video of the lengths the Spanish had to go through in order to try and stop this illegal flow is well documented with the footage. I also think the determination of these people to face beatings and death is also well documented with the vid. The commentary is sometimes obviously questionable but I didn`t think it had as much bias as a Michael Moore Doc so I posted it lol. These people are desperate with nothing left to lose and while I want to be fair, I can`t help but remember that those with nothing to lose are despotic and a despot is a dangerous and unpredictable thing.

VICE (the people who shot that) even has a couple of ex Obama Administration members on it`s BoD so I expected as much

BTW...."climate change" is a real trigger for me too. Like fightin words. My wife and I argue about that topic once a week it seems. She drank the koolaid and I always call BS.....those are the days I don`t get laid if you can imagine

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Yeah we have already locally experienced this but it was with LEGAL immigrants who were Iraqis. The storage facility where they were storing machine guns and some rocket launchers is across the street from where I work. Check it:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/30/justice/kentucky-terror-sentences/index.html

I don't doubt it one bit. A couple of years after 9-11, there was an islamist terrorist cell caught near Buffalo NY with ties in Canada if I recall the locations correctly. And you are right, they are already here.

But this is where I feel more thorough vetting of immigrants may help. Yes, it may take more boots on the ground, yes it may take more time for these people to in-process.. But frankly, I don't care. If they really want to come here, and are doing it for the right reasons (mainly not killing us or putting more burden on our already strained welfare system) then they will deal with it and do what is necessary to gain entry.

Obviously, it is impossible to catch every single would-be terrorist at the border, even with a revamped system of vetting immigrants. But any sane society/government should do it's level best to keep that number at the absolute minimum. And step #1 to this process is controlling the border effectively.

Boiled down, this is a 2-part problem. Part 1: we are not controlling our border adequately. So how the hell can we possibly know who is coming in?? Part 2: Those who ARE caught here illegally are not being deported for the most part.. And that number is now growing under the current regime.

And I'm sorry, but the whole argument about "tearing families apart" buys no sympathy from me, referring to the so-called "dreamers" and anchor babies here. It's very very simple... If one does not want their family torn apart, then do not break our laws and violate our sovereignty. If one chooses to take that risk (as if there really is any risk any more) then one must be prepared to deal with the consequences.

In no way am I trying to sidetrack the conversation.. But ever notice how the argument against deportation seems to revolve around the "impossibility" of deporting 11-20 million people?? Yet these same people vigorously enforce unconstitutional firearms regulations on the tens of millions of citizen firearms owners in this country... Anyone else see the double standard in the general enforcement of laws at the federal level in this country?? They are flat out ignoring Article 4, section 4 of the constitution which charges the federal government with securing our borders... and then they flat out step outside of its enumerated powers when it comes to 2a... Well, there is a grain of consistency, they are ignoring the constitution on both counts.....

But what other laws do they choose not to enforce because it's "just too difficult to enforce"??? Does anyone think that if 10 million people quit paying their taxes that the IRS would just throw it's hands up and say there are "just too many to handle"??? How about drunk driving?? I would take a guess that 10s of thousands drive drunk every single day in this country.. DO we see them giving up on enforcing DWI laws?? And back to gun laws... does anyone think for one second that if 10 million US citizens decided to start modifying semi-auto AR15's into fully automatic M16's that the BATFE would just let it go because there are just too many???

These people in the current regime are so transparent in their motives, it insults me that they think we buy this load of tripe!

[Scootertrash]

I'm glad to see many of you younger guys(?) having your poop in a group when it comes to this stuff. At least I assume most of you in this thread are younger (I'm 55 in April).

So here's my take on these issues. None of my comments are directed at anyone in particular. If the shoe fits, as they say. ;)

Immigration is far more than jobs/economic issue. The Democrat/Liberals want to let them stay because once the illegal immigrants (they are not undocumented, they are here because they violated our immigration laws, period) have the right to vote, who do you think they will vote for? The people who let them stay here and gave them all kinds of stuff "free". Well, free to them anyways, supplied by the blood sweat and tears of the middle class and rich. Yea, contrary to popular Liberal talking points the rich do pay taxes. Sure, they get a "discounted" tax on capital gains, but I'm gonna bet that there isn't one person here who wouldn't take advantage of the same tax break if they had the chance.

The other problem with our south of the border friends as well as those illegals from many other countries is that they are accustomed to crooked politicians, bribery of politicians and law enforcement by criminals and drug cartels and are familiar with the ramifications if they speak up. So they keep their heads down and don't say anything because "There's nothing I can do about it" (More on that later). So they come here for that same reason, only to be used as pawns by our government to facilitate the same environment they just left.

The Rich So someone has more money than you? Cry me a river. They don't owe anyone anything. Sure, there are some rich that were born with a sliver spoon in their mouths, but do you think that their parents, or grandparents, or great grand parents didn't work for their fortune? You don't get rich by sitting around on your ass drinking beer, passing a left handed cigarette and b!tching because someone has more than you.

Name me another country where a college drop out can go out to his parents garage with a buddy start messing around with computer related stuff and turn it into a multi billion dollar company and not have the government take control of it. Go ahead, I'll wait:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuABhumm6fY

I've run my own small business, I can only imagine what it takes to turn it into a multi-million dollar business. Most of those whiners who complain about greedy business owners have never even tried to start a business let alone run one for a few years.

So until you've taken out a second mortgage to start a business, worked 14/16/18 hour days for 7 days a week, given up time with your wife and kids, not going to ball games, recitals and plays for your children, and not taking vacations because you have a business to run for the 3-5 years it takes to be considered a "successful, profitable business", then a few more years until you find trustworthy employees that won't try to rob you blind because "you're a rich plucker". I'm not going to listen to your whiney ass sob stories of how someone has it "better" than you.

Here's a harsh reality, and no, I'm not criticizing: There is not one person on this site who couldn't have done better in life, MYSELF INCLUDED. Went to college, community college, trade school or whatever. Worked more hours, done a little more ass kissing at work to move up the ladder, worked late more often, etc.

The only one responsible for where they are at in life is themselves.

There will ALWAYS be someone who has more than you.

A little FYI for those who need a little shot of reality: Guess who is in charge of all of those Communist, Socialist, Dictatorships in the world? The rich. Yup, that's right. Guess what? they don't "share the wealth" either. In Socialist/Communist countries there are only 2 classes: The Working Class and the Elite Ruling Class, there is no Middle Class. Both forms of government drag the middle class down so everyone but the Ruling Class is miserable.

I have another thread I'll start on minimum wage/success later today, as well as one on media bias.

One more thing: For those who say "There's nothing I can do about it", that's a whiney cop out, and one of the reasons this country is turning to shyte. If every person I ever heard say that would actually do SOMETHING we wouldn't be where we are at today.

So there you have it. Flame me. Hate me. Call me names. Whateva. I base my ethical and moral standards on what made this country successful. It wasn't a bunch whiney ass crybabies lookin for handouts.

[sledcrazyinCT]

Great thread love the insight of members here

[RIDE-RED 250r]

^^^ Yeah .....i was hoping we`d do something about last election but it was a choice of DUMB AND DUMBER !.......and it`ll piss you off when you figure out that you can never afford to retire at the rate we`re going !


Nail on the head Sir, nail on the head...... I am sick to death of dumb and dumber for choices! I am sick to death of voting "democrat lite" if I vote for a republican...who always brags about conservative and constitutional principle only to abandon it if/when elected... I'm tired of hearing those who claim to be on our side yammering about :"reaching across the aisle"... You know what?? Reach across the aisle... with a doubled up fist!

It's been said before and I'll say it again.. the only difference between the dems and re-pubics (to borrow a term coined by Mark Levin) currently is how fast they want to take us into their progressive utopian fascist state...

I want true constitutionalists in my government! Is that too much to ask??

[Jmoozy27]

I want true constitutionalists in my government! Is that too much to ask??

We just need a leader with a pair who doesn't give a trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro what Hollywood thinks. I'm not buying that the majority of this country wants communism. It's not true. We are kin to the bad assess that won landslide victories against the faces of evil. The grand kids of the legends who lied about there age only to die before they actually lived because it was right and they knew it. The bloodline is there and it is time to wake up and unite. I've always said that it's starts at the top but trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro rolls down hill. The truth is that it starts at the bottom with the average person to make a difference. I do believe that America is headed toward a 2nd civil war and this immigration is an open inlistment for these communist and they have the upper hand. It may be too late to stop this so we need to prepare. Make alliances across our land and know that land far better than our intruders. Life as we know it is creeping away a little everyday and regulatory plague is rapidly spreading it's reign.

[slashfan7964]

My thoughts on immgration. I'll keep this short and simple.

I have no problem with people immgrating to this country, in fact I welcome it because this country allows one to better themself and I have high respect for those willing to take that step. But I'll be damned if you don't do it the right way. Come through the door, fill out your papers, work your job and pay your damn taxes like everyone else or stay the hell out.

[Jmoozy27]

But the legal way is a hassle for immigrants and it's just too easy to just pass threw unaccounted for. I use the jay walking analogy. If you need a gallon of milk and the grocery store is directly across the street why would you walk a half mile to the nearest crosswalk when you can just cross the street at your own speed with little risk. The crosswalk has heavy traffic you have to wait your turn and when it is your turn your rushed across the street with a group of people that you don't know who will try to pick your pocket. They just cross wherever the street illegally because they know if they get caught nothing will happen. They will probably only get a warning, if that.

[redsox]

this thread was awesome. i wanna resurrect it. the best boss i ever had used to say, "don't come to me with a problem if you don't have a suggestion for a solution." So, i pose the same challenge to you. what say you? is it all done? should we be storing ammo and salting meat? orrrrrrr,,,,, is there a way to save things?

[El Camexican]

Tax revolt. It is all that is left that MIGHT fix things without bloodshed.

[fabiodriven]

I think America is too soft for any solution to this problem. Too many people have too many rights these days.

[El Camexican]

I think America is too soft for any solution to this problem. Too many people have too many rights these days.

That's the beauty of a tax revolt. Everything stops. No welfare checks, no schools, no public services. The only right left would be the right to bear arms. Control of the government would revert back to the citizens in short order. Short term mess, long term fix. Won't happen in my lifetime, but it's coming. Once taxes get to 100% to support the illegals and the useless it has to happen.

[Jmoozy27]

That's the beauty of a tax revolt. Everything stops. No welfare checks, no schools, no public services. The only right left would be the right to bear arms. Control of the government would revert back to the citizens in short order. Short term mess, long term fix. Won't happen in my lifetime, but it's coming. Once taxes get to 100% to support the illegals and the useless it has to happen.

People just need to see the importance of the rights that built this country. It's a right to bear arms not to hunt, not to perform mass killings, but to protect yourself from a government that steps out of line. It's not a right to own a cell phone, and a car, and get a check to support your degeneration. I personally believe that the only way to get better at this point is to hit rock bottom. It's not far away, even the Jewish people in Europe would not believe that the Nazi party would effect them until the Gestapo was pulling them out of there beds in the middle of the night. We have got too pussified. We expect things to just work themselves out and we believe what the talking heads on tv tell us. Our government is very strong in all the wrong ways, but they are sloppy because they are built from the same ignorant citizens that they control. It's up to the clever folks from the old skool to grab this thing by the balls when it goes south. So in the mean time, learn how to tye a knot, start a fire, and aim center mass.