M855 Ammo Ban

[86waterpumper]

I know most people here are probably into most outdoor activities if they like 3 wheelers, camping, fishing, shooting, etc. The ATF is planning to ban m855 "armor piercing" :lol: ammo in March. They are accepting comments until the middle of March, but I know nearly all stores around me are already sold out. This already happened not long ago with 5.45X39 *7N6* russian surplus ammo. This is the first time they have proposed to ban such a common ammo that tons of people shoot and is going to be the first step in lots of other things getting banned I think, and it could make prices go up on xm193 and 223 similar to what has happened with 22lr. I'm sure most here already have heard about it, but I would take the time to sign the petition at least, send them comments and emails, faxes whatever and contact your state officials. They have probably already made their decision but it can't hurt to let them know people aren't happy about it. At least if it's taken away I want the right to trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro about it :D By the time my kids grow up, it looks like firearms and ammo or even hunting will be a rich man's hobby like it is already in the uk, australia, japan etc.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj

here is the email they are accepting comments at APAComments@atf.gov

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Done!

Anyone think those who penned the Bill of Rights would take any of this laying down??

[ironchop]

I read somewhere in 2007 that certain Democrat politicians had noted that 2A did NOT protect ammo so the very best way around 2A would be to ban ammo. Without ammo, they noted the firearm would be nothing more than "a club"

As for M855, while I am disturbed to see any ammo getting banned (including the overblown Black Talon/ cop killer nonsense from the early 90`s), I must add that M855 was some of the most inaccurate 5.56 I have ever had the displeasure of buying. My RRA AR Bull barrel coyote rifle HATES the stuff.

The "ideology" behind these bans is that these are "steel core" and therefore "armor piercing"....by "armor piercing" I would assume they mean "pierces level IIIA vests and Kevlar helmets" because it would be absurd to think that they are insinuating that these "armor piercing rounds" will run through tanks and APCs which is patently FALSE.....The fact is, most larger centerfire ammo, steel core or not, will penetrate IIIA and can also penetrate ceramic and AR500 ballistic plates in some cases. My buddy pulled a Purple Heart for getting his ceramic plate cracked in two after taking two 7.62x39s to the chest in combat ten years ago. He was hurt and got a pile of broken ribs but the plates saved him.....7.62x51 would have been a whole different story and the ending would have been a lot less pleasant as would it be should anyone employ 50BMG.......I guess they consider M855 more dangerous than even 50BMG which I think is either irresponsible or driven by an agenda unknown to the rest of us.

they have been going after steel core before. IIRC, they stopped allowing black tip 762x51 to be sold to the public a few years ago. The 7N6 stuff for the AK74 was steel core too. It got banned last year. They apparently either don`t know about silver tip 7.62x54 Mosin or they haven`t got around to it yet because that stuff is steel core as well......not because they need armor piercing technology in the Battle of Stalingrad but simply because there was a lead shortage. Steel core has a different trajectory than lead filled and can be a bit of an inconvenience when you have to adjust your POA after switching ammo types. Matter of fact, in my area, Silver tip Mosin is the absolute MOST common surplus Mosin ammo sold in the USA....oops!

I`m not much on "conspiracy theories" and all that but one has to wonder why the "sudden need" to quickly and secretly ban the most commonly and cheaply available 556x45 and 545x39 (AK74) and then also introduce into Congress a bill to ban the purchase and possession of modern ballistic vests with a penalty of ten years federal flat! Wow! You would get less time for having a Meth lab....looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....point to ponder.

Handguns and handgun rounds still account for over 98% of ALL deaths and injuries by firearm in this country and yet, rifles of any type seem to be the ONLY focus of the "sensible gun laws" crowd.....NOTHING sensible about going after just 1% of the firearms used in crimes (shotties are not included) while ignoring the other overwhelming 98%.....I see no "sensibility" in this approach for those who claim they want sensible legislation. People aren`t that stupid which means they KNOWINGLY aren`t telling the truth about their intentions......Don`t also forget that Russian Surplus ammo sales of the 7N6 variety benefits Russian capitalists.....the very same enemies of the EU who have been busy sanctioning the Russians trying to crush them economically.....because Ukraine....it`s for the children! Don`t look for the US to feel sorry for Russian ammo dealers any time soon.

BTW, that M855 ban isn`t the only thing the ATF was issuing decress about last week. They also wanted to "clarify" their positions on home building as there is also legislation looking to require all home builds past and future to be registered with ATF and serial numbers applied. This has been a much bigger loophole than the "gunshow loophole" reported in the media incessantly (even though I have yet to find a gunshow vendor at any show I`ve attended since 2000 that did NOT run a background check at the POS contrary to the "reports" issued by the mainstream. Every show dealer I ever purchased from ran a check on the spot so I was good to go with no worries)

above all, if any gun owner hasn`t figured out that he/she should stash ammo for future shooting by now then I don`t really feel sorry for them when they have to pay Panic Prices. They charge those huge prices because there is always somebody freaking out over NWO, someone looking to make a quick buck, or someone who let their own stash get down to a box or two and now has to play an expensive game of catch-up who these vendors can sell to. If everyone didn`t fall for the hype and had put back a substantial amount of rounds for sporting then you would have nothing to worry about right now and these vendors would not e able to absolutely and completely FLEECE you. Keep Calm and Mind the Gap! Keep a reserve at all times and buy some the day you want to shoot so you don`t get into your stash. Its worked for me ever since the mid 90`s when AK ammo was $1.75 for a box of twenny twen twen.....no shortage of 22 either.

I signed that petition earlier this week but I must say I have NEVER seen the ATF reverse an edict....modify one, yes, but never reverse it`s course. This is here to stay

[86waterpumper]

I agree with you that the m855 is no high end projectile. Heck it is not only surplus bullets, but 2nd rate that did not make the military cut, at least the federal xm855 is. I don't have a AR15 yet myself, so I have not shot any but the overwhelming majority say that m193 shoots alot tighter groups. The thing is though if they come for m855, then anything is on the table to be banned except 22lr maybe. Like you said, pretty much ANY round is capable of what it is, and alot more regardless of how much steel it has in it. Any full metal jacket centerfire round that I know of would blow right through level two or three stuff. I believe it is simply a way to limit available ammo and make the whole ar15 platform more costly to shoot and less attractive to potential buyers. I have a mosin myself and no matter how old and outdated it is that round is plenty capable of messing someone's day up. All the modern production ammo such as silver/brown bear, and wolf etc is all bimetal and pretty much all a solid steel core, unlike the m855 which is mostly lead. I had some of the 174 grain remington mfs rounds, (which is rebadged eastern bloc stuff I'm sure) and it punched through a old compressor tank like it was nothing.

I think that everyone should stock up some ammo, for a rainy day, but if we start banning different calibers or bullet types, it is just going to make it much much harder for generations coming along after us to have the same freedoms we did. I can stock up enough for myself maybe even my kids, but I don't have the funds to buy up 20,000 rounds of every caliber I own that might potentially be banned. I don't know what action one can take except let them know you don't stand for it, but I concur that this one is going to go through. With the exception of a few people on youtube, it seems like not many care or are aware? I guess for most in the area I live in, they are going to have to ban hunting with any semi auto rifles and shotguns or do mass gun buybacks and turnins before people really get mad. Pretty soon we are all going to be shooting bows and arrows, or black powder.

I'm sure they are going to crack down on home builds sooner than later. I saw yesterday a guy is selling a cnc machine for 1500 bucks that makes the so called "ghost gun" receivers out of 80 percent lowers. No way will they let that go for long haha

[83ATC185]

Yeah ain't nothin been said lately about the steel core "penetrating" 7.62x54r which i may or may not have and may or may not have tested on an old transmission with satisfying results. That's some hot stuff there but I'm sure its not as useful against personnel as say the Hungarian heavy lead. It also has the tendency to ricochet like a bouncy ball thrown across a gym.

Cling to your guns. Practice using them. They may soon be our best friends.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

As usual, I find myself among like-minded individuals here... Especially you Ironchop. You took the words out of my mouth when you mentioned recent legislation to ban private onwership of body armor.

Pay no attention folks, Napoleon and the other pigs will take care of the rest of us farm animals as long as we do our share to keep the machine running.......

[Dirtweed]

Though I don't see a need for this type of ammo as stated this will lead to other bans and that is unacceptable. I'll have to go over and sign it.
The Republicans better get a good candidate this time around and one minded to clean up this crap.

[Scootertrash]

The reason they are trying to ban M855 is this:

211119


The AR15 pistol. There are also some AK47 pistols in 5.56 caliber as well as AK74 pistols in 5.45 (hence the banning of 7N6 ;). So now that there are "pistols" that use this ammo they are trying to ban this ammo because they are claiming it's pistol ammunition and "it's a danger to police".

The NRA is fighting this. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you guys aren't members of the NRA, you should be. All the other gun organizations help out, but they are small potatoes compared to the NRA. There is something like 10 million gun owners in the US and only around 5 million NRA members. Pitiful if you ask me.

I'll have more tomorrow. I gotta get to bed. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sleep001.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

[redsox]

Just to clarify, the ATF does not make policy. They are an enforcement agency. They fall under the U.S. justice department, which is run by our good friend eric holder. Don't you feel safe? My point is, a ban must be enacted by the legislative body. that is why its so important to vote the right way. this administration is cramming legislation down our throats because these bullets are dangerous, but millions of illegal immigrants are not. its back asswards. petitions are good, and i'll sign it. but, IMO, its more important to vote against the left.

[86waterpumper]

the body armor ban is nuts...what is their supposed reason they have stated that people should not own that?
Also I don't think there is even one single instance where a AR15 pistol has been used against a cop... It is not what you would call a very concealable weapon haha
Most thugs want cheap high points and cobras and such...

[83ATC185]

Though I don't see a need for this type of ammo as stated this will lead to other bans and that is unacceptable. I'll have to go over and sign it.
The Republicans better get a good candidate this time around and one minded to clean up this crap.

I cant speak for the Federal or other branded M855 but I know that the real military stuff is whole lot dirtier and less accurate than a lot of commercial ammo. But its a cheap way to get a lot of trigger time in. We all know this is BS here. To me, a bullet is a sharp pointy object traveling at 3000 feet per second does it really matter what its made of or what type of gun it came from?

The people running our country are so far removed from real life that they are different people and they will never get that 99.9% of gun owners are smart decent safety minded people. There's that .1% of people that misuse firearms but if you look at it, even they are not the problem. Yes they cast a negative light on responsible people. The problem is that there are tons of people in this country now running around with no life experience with a head full of fear. I'm not afraid of being a victim, the thought never crosses my mind, and because of that, i never am a victim. Something bad may happen to me, sure, but id rather die ignorant of the danger, than be afraid of the shadows my whole life.

Where I'm going with this is, fear is what keeps people from doing things. Fear keeps people from questioning themselves or others as much as they should. It makes people vulnerable and looking for answers. All the people in charge now have to do is keep the people afraid, and anything they want to happen, will.

[Scootertrash]

these bullets are dangerous

Are there bullets that AREN'T "dangerous"? :wondering

From a thread on another forum (wolfganggross was the one who posted the info):


Note that wolfganggross points out the steel element in these bullets is Rockwell hardness C 40-45 and made from C 1045 carbon steel, while "real" AP ammo such as the .30-'06 M2 AP bullet has a steel core with a RHC of 65 - much harder, and the M993 7.62 AP round has a tungsten core

The MIL-SPEC for M855 ammunition (MIL-C-63989C(AR)) calls for the following:

3.9 Penetration. The bullet of the sample cartridges shall demonstrate complete penetration of 10 gage (.135 inch) thickness AISI 1010 to 1020 steel plate target with hardness between RB 55 minimum and RB 70 maximum, (NATO plate) positioned at 0 ± 5º obliquity and located 656 yards (600 meters) from the weapon. Additionally an aluminum witness plate (2024-T3 or equivalent nominally 0.020” thick) shall be located 6 inches behind the target to determine penetration. Testing shall be performed when the air temperature is between 300F and 95°F. This test shall only be performed for the First Article test and for the first three production lots. If the requirement for penetration has been successfully met for the First Article and three (3) consecutive production lots this test may be discontinued.

There is nothing about penetrating hardened materials, body armor, multiple layers of metal plate, etc., just a steel plate that is a stand in for a "standard NATO helmet" as discussed elsewhere. E. C. Ezell, late curator of the Smithsonian's Division of Armed Forces history, National Museum of American History, in his Small Arms today, (1984, Stackpole Books), included information from FN's military catalog about the SS109 with FN's test standards, which were essentially the same:


When fired at an angle of 90º in relation to the plate, the ball projectile must perforate completely an SAE 1010 or SAE 1020 mild steel plate, of a hardness situated between 100 and 123 HB, 3.5mm nominal thickness, located at 615 m from the weapon muzzle. (p. 247)

This essentially became the NATO standard (unfortunately I cannot locate a STANAG to post to support this) for the 5.56mm NATO round. Please note that FN calls it a "ball projectile."

This leads to the conclusion that M855 bullets are made with a non-hardened (mild) steel filler in the nose. Most texts still call this a "penetrator" (even Army texts), but it is not like an AP bullet's penetrator component in that it is neither pointed nor hardened. It appears that this component is there to a) move the center of mass rearward, which improved the gyroscopic stability of the bullet over longer distances and b) to help it maintain its shape during feeding, firing and impact.

While it may be called a "penetrator" it appears that the steel insert is not a classic AP component, and while it facilitates better penetration over longer distances, this can be attributed to straighter flight over those distances, and an increased likelihood that the bullet will impact point-first, and thus concentrate its kinetic energy at that point of impact for more effective penetration.

I assert that marketers attempt to get the buying public to believe that they are buying something other than a "ball" round that simply goes straight for longer distances, and that the M855 is mischaracterized as being "more than just a ball round."


FYI: The standard 5.56 FMJ "ball" round that the average Joe can walk into any outdoors store and buy will punch a hole in a 3/16 thick steel plate at 25 yards. I'll see if I still have the plate around here somewhere. In addition, the standard 7.62x39 FMJ "ball" round out of an AK47 (GASP!!!) will do the same thing.

They are also trying to circumvent the "sporting purposes" clause, which defines "sporting purposes" ammo as used for hunting and target shooting.


They want to ban this because it can fit into a "pistol" like I posted above. Here is an AK "pistol"

211139

These are classified as pistol because they are a rifle with a cut down barrel and no buttstock. If you add a buttstock they become an SBR, or Short Barreled Rifle, and a 200.00 ATF tax stamp is required to legally own one.

Now I don't know if many of you have seen one of the AR or AK pistols, but they aren't the type of "pistol" that you stuff into your sagging baggy ass hat backwards pants and go strolling around the 'hood bein a gangsta.

This is just another act of incrementalism to ban guns. One little bite at a time.

[Scootertrash]

Though I don't see a need for this type of ammo

What type of ammo? If things were outlawed based on "need" we wouldn't have anything fun. Lots of people don't think we "need" three wheelers or quads either. ;)

This is relatively cheap mass produced ammo made in America (although I believe there is some foreign made surplus out there), bought by gun owners for target shooting.

Read my post above. This not "armor piercing" ammo.

Military ammo is not match grade ammo. If yer lookin for ragged hole accuracy you need to roll your own or buy Match Grade ammo.

ironchop-RRA coyote eh? RRA NM A4 here ;)

ETA: I don't have an AR or AK pistol. Yet. Why on earth would someone want such a thing? Well, because FREEDOM. And, well, fireballs

211140

211141

[ironchop]

It`s important to add that it isn`t just AK or AR`s made into pistols these days.....DSA Arms offers an FAL pistol in standard .308.....I would be looking for some bans in this caliber as well very soon if they invoke the "pistol rule"


a second thing to keep in mind, the EPA has successfully legislated controls over the domestic production of lead to the point where the last lead smelter in the US just recently closed it doors....anything after the fact will need to be imported from overseas from now on......now where this could be very important is that if steel core has been deemed "armor piercing" and therefore now banned, AND you can`t fill copper jackets with domestic lead, then you`ve got a serious bottleneck regarding the domestic production of ammo........on top of all this, there is a LARGE amount of former Soviet and Soviet satellite nations ammo manufacturers and distributors supplying this country`s sport shooters right now.....and we are all just one sanction away from drying up the ammo tap for a lot of popular calibers

"ironchop-RRA coyote eh? RRA NM A4 here "

yeah the upper is RRA in Wylde chamber so it shoots both. It has a stainless 18in bull barrel and the lower is a Sabre keyhole marked forged lower I got from back in my machining for US Defense Contractors days. I got a Nikon 4-16x42 BDC for glass and I typically shoot PMC 5.56 XTAC 62G LAP out of it with great results. Pretty sweet setup for sure for a .223...I have another lower awaiting an M4 style upper whenever I get some spare $$. Then there are the AK`s. My fav being a milled Hungarian I got many moons ago in trade for a Triumph Bonnie motor. I have as big a crush on black rifles as I have on trikes.

[keister]

Are there bullets that AREN'T "dangerous"? :wondering

Well ya -- .380 rounds aren't dangerous. You didn't know that?
They have no stopping power and will only piss somebody off.
That's why real men don't carry them.

But seriously, not trying to derail this thread, just thought it needed a little levity....
....... plus I'm on my way to Imperial Invasion in Commiefornia where guns are illegal.
Good discussion on a very disconcerting topic, guys. Carry on.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

All of this ball of wax only exists now because the progressive tyrants have been hammering away at the 2nd, playing semantics, convincing alot of people that 2a is about "hunting heritage".. Nothing could be further form the truth as to the purpose of 2a.

So now we have all of these "sporting" issues... questions about what we are allowed to have based on whether it can be disqualified as a "legitimate sporting rifle"...

Armor piercing is now an issue eh?? Well, there aren't too many commonly used deer calibers that will not completely defeat the best armor out there... Yes, those "deer rifles" that we are certain to be told in the not too distant future that we should not be allowed to have them because they are really "sniper rifles"...Talking about your every day Winchester m70's chambered in your favorite caliber with some glass on it here guys...

This is not the end of this garbage, no Sir, not by a damn sight.

This has never been about public/police safety.. If it were then why the decades of convincing people that 2a is about hunting rights??? And why the ban on private ownership of body armor...

This is about disarming the populace and making us utterly defenseless to be ruled as subjects. Try to convince me otherwise.

There is no shortage of statistics that disprove the tripe they pass off that more gun control equals less crime...

We find ourselves more and more in a police state every day it seems....

[poolieZerUK]

That's what's happened here.
You can have body armour, but they shoot you several times in the neck or the head just to make sure.

[ironchop]

A lifelong friend and I were talking the other day about how all through the 80s there were Uzis and AKs with a smidgen of HKs and some Bushmasters or the rare Colt HBAR sitting on gun store walls doing nothing but collecting dust.....nobody gave two shizz`s about that sort of thing because it was really impractical for sporting purposes...they were a niche item for a very small percentage of gun owners...The idea that one would need a serious rifle to defend one`s rights and home was met with mockery and snickering. Nobody would ever believe we would ever see the day that you wished you had an AK in the closet.

I remember $49 Chinese SKS.......$19.95 for a Mosin or an Ishapore Enfield bring back..... new Norinco MAK90 AKs were only $225.... new Colt HBAR was $750....Bushmasters were $400 and a new Uzi semi was about $300 and a Ruger Mini Thirty was almost $400.

Nobody gave these guns a second glance....everyone wanted a Beretta 92 pistol, a Franchi SPAS, or a Tec-9 because they saw one in an N.W.A. video

Nowadays, the AR15 is the best selling firearm for a few years running and AKs, HKs, Cetmes, and SKSs aren`t far behind in demand

Oddly, AFTER the Clinton AWB passed and was signed and about to take effect, these guns started FLYING off the shelf......All of the sudden everyone wanted one before they were gone. I saw guys buying trash cans full of SKS`s and stuffing trunks full of AKs.

These bans actually drive up the demand for things like this

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Ironchop, I think what we have is a combination of fruit forbidden by the over-stepping tyrants, and people who see the handwriting on the wall every time a new "regulation" that infringes our rights comes into existence. There is certainly the element of entrepreneurial people looking to cash in on the run... But I think by and large, the first 2 are the largest factor....

I have never owned an AR, never really been interested in them. I'm a scoped bolt rifle, lever rifle, and revolver guy. But Ill be damned if I am to be told as an American citizen I am not allowed to have such things should I so choose....

I'm a pretty good shot with my Winchester m70 338 Win Mag... Good thing it doesn't use that evil "armor piercing" ammo!! ;) LOL!

[250rRoostmaster]

Signed... Great rational discussion. Sometimes (Most times!) hard to find when talking about this stuff.