New to me...1985 200X....metal shavings in the oil

[BigRedGrizzly]

Hello all... I finally found a 200X what appears to be in pretty good condition. After completing my regular ritual (after getting a new bike) of cleaning the carb and soaking in ChemDip, dropping in a new plug, and getting it running well I drained the oil. Bad news... Found metal shavings in the oil filter and oil. The oil was very thin. It looks like the head was off at some point since there is red silicone gasket visible. It runs and idles well. It feels like it's lacking the power my 200s has. The X definitely doesn't wheely as easily. I'm not I'm not 100% sure what my next move should be. I've heard from some that a complete upper and lower rebuild is required. I have also heard from others that it could be a loose cam chain rubbing on the case or common shavings after a upper rebuild. My plan as of now is to putz around on it for a week or two and drain the oil again to see what's up. I adjusted the cam chain tensioner so if that was the problem I expect little to no more shavings. Unfortunately I don't know any of the history on this thing. Chassis is sound. Engine has me concerned. Any guidance on which step or steps I should take next would be appreciated.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/22/f07304784cd00615ac27d8ae0672415c.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/22/7a4f26912912babf89d4fdda38156477.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/22/3084e64156d7702140dc24cffab90c9e.jpg

[86125m]

I would probably pull the motor and check the top end and then inspect from there. if its lacking power it probably needs a new set rings anyway.

[shortline10]

Excessive silicone on the topend clogging the oil passages or the rod bearing might be going .

[thehorse13]

That's a nice looking 200x. If you paid around 800 bucks for it, you are still ahead of the game even if you have to rebuild the top end.

[Jmoozy27]

Daryl, you can always pull the motor to rebuild it and throw the less used 200s motor in there for now. It should practically bolt right up. I would go ahead and pull the top end for inspection purposes. If anything is questionable, go ahead and rebuild it that way you know what you have. It may just need a camshaft and new rockers but if you go that far, well, you know the routine. Don't be discouraged, its still a good find in that physical shape. It may just be time for a doctor visit. Let us know.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks, Jay. I'm planning to give this bike a big overhaul over the winter. So... I guess I'll get a jump start on the motor this summer... I'll have the 200s still so it will serve my 3 wheel needs until the X is complete. I've never taken down a motorcycle engine before so I'm a bit intimidated. I'll be doing some reading and self education. Seems like there are great resources here.. Which is nice.
Ok...Step 1. Drain oil and remove engine from bike. Sounds simple enough..

[thehorse13]

You can find service manuals for the 85 200x online for free. It details the removal of the motor along with several other things you'll need to know when doing the overhaul.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Great.... Got it. Thanks.

[Jmoozy27]

You should be able to handle it Daryl. Most fold up when asked to clean a carb. You have done more than that thus far. Just take your time and ask questions.

[86125m]

And reference the manual if you are not sure or even if you are sure because you are bound to miss a washer or something somewhere done the line.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks guys.. I'll literally be studying the manual before bed for at least the next week or two. I have some work to do on my son's *cough*quad so that will keep my evenings occupied. For those who have gone down this road, can you recommend any special tools I may need or parts I should pre-order. I do have the fly wheel puller already if I need to go that deep. The bike has a DG exhaust system on it so hopefully the nuts will come off the studs without too much of a struggle. I'll be soaking those down daily and nightly. I think there might be a bit of an exhaust leak there too. That would account for some loss in power too, right? How best test that? I was thinking of getting a little smoke or powder in the air and see if it moves. What about spraying the area with soapy water?
Thanks guys for the tips. I'll keep you posted as I get going.

[knappyfeet]

I've seen thru your threads that you maneuver around things well so this rebuild. ...........you'll be fine. Couple of things....

I'm not over concerned with shavings in the screen as much as I am with the apparent power loss....which could be both of the same. Take a magnet to it and determine if it's steel or aluminum. If it's aluminum the chain might be the culprit.

Make sure the valves are adjusted proper and then run a compression check. If low try to determine if it's valves or rings. Your 200x looks nice so a complete rebuild is ideal.

I know you clean the carb but an phosphoric acid clean/dip would be ideal for the small passages.....and of course compressed air.

one thing I've learned over the years with Honda and Suzuki singles......singles in general for that matter is slight changes to carburetion, intake, flow, compression can have big detrimental effects on power and power delivery. Perhaps needle positions, jets, etc were changed improperly when the exhaust was added. Has the airbox been altered in any way? Does the carb look normal in general? Just things I'm thinking about. I'll be working on my 85 200x when I get ahead on my HT-1 so I'm looking forward to your progress.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Good call on carb adj. When I got the 3 wheeler, the pilot screw was turned out like 3 1/2 to 3 3/4 turns. I thought that was a lot so I set it to factory setting. It runs and idles well. Like I mentioned it does have the exhaust and I noticed the lid of the air box is drilled out. I believe both of these mods are increasing air flow so it makes sense to increase fuel flow. Will just making it richer by turning out the pilot screw do the job or should I get a bigger main jet?
I'll have to confirm the shavings as aluminum tomorrow after work. I have fish them out of the oil. I adjusted the cam chain tensioner but I'll check it again and check the valve clearance.
I'll also drain the oil again and see if I'm still getting shavings.
Thanks for tips and encouragement.

[loganm]

Dunk it in the pond and roach it out, then sell to some dumb teenager that doesn't know anything.

[knappyfeet]

Good call on carb adj. When I got the 3 wheeler, the pilot screw was turned out like 3 1/2 to 3 3/4 turns. I thought that was a lot so I set it to factory setting. It runs and idles well. Like I mentioned it does have the exhaust and I noticed the lid of the air box is drilled out. I believe both of these mods are increasing air flow so it makes sense to increase fuel flow. Will just making it richer by turning out the pilot screw do the job or should I get a bigger main jet?

Well what I like to do is go up a little on the slow jet because you can always adjust its flow with the adjusting screw.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmholtz_resonance

I would almost immediately purchase an air box lid. Someone drilled that out for more "air flow" however.......that single modification can have adverse affects. The theory behind the air box....Helmholtz resonance....and in exhaust manages air and acts as a "resonator". It's not just to filter. The person who did that assumed they knew more than a Honda engineer who engineered the air box. Motorcycles were one of the first to employ this.

Race bikes aside....I have never seen a motorcycle run better with pods or with some other modification than it did with its stock air box in place. Maybe a high flow filter can be used once you iron out the intake.

[Jmoozy27]

Dunk it in the pond and roach it out, then sell to some dumb teenager that doesn't know anything.

Huh?¿? This is a thread created to solve a problem not waste bandwidth. If you want to contribute to this just type good luck. :postwhore

[yaegerb]

Dunk it in the pond and roach it out, then sell to some dumb teenager that doesn't know anything.

WTF....I lived in Wichita for a spell, fun group.....

To the OP, follow the manual, it won't be that bad. You have a nice support group to fall on. :)

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ok gents... The compression test results are in. Looks to be just a little over 120 on a hot test. I think the service manual states it should be 160. I imagine all engines lose a bit of compression over time but I don't know about 40. I bounced over to my son's TRX90 to do some work on that. The rear sprocket was clearly bent and the existing drive chain what's absolutely hammered. Replace sprocket and chain sounds simple enough. Well when I got in there it became obvious that it wasn't just the sprocket that was bent. One of the spokes on the hub that the sprocket mounts to was also bent. About 3/16" out of alignment with the others. I ended up pulling the axle, heating the area with some map gas, and beat it into position with a dead blow hammer. It took some fine tuning in a vice but it's all squared away now. I'm proud that I have finally been able to apply some of my work skills to ATV repair. I'm a pediatric orthotist and I'm always bending metal to the contour of kids legs. I make a lot of those Forest Gump braces. I also bent my son's shifter to accommodate his preferred foot position on the peg. Anyway, I never did get to check the shavings yet to see if they are aluminum or not. I adj. the cam chain tensioner again and it sounds much much better. I think the chain was flipping around in there like a fish out of water. After I replace the tie-rods on the TRX90 tomorrow night I'm planning to bounce to the 200X to adj. the valves and then separate shaving from oil.

I'm thinking about getting the Wiseco top end replacement kit. I guess I need to get a peek at the cylinder and see if there is any damage. Stock bore is 65 so I suppose if there is some damage to the cylinder it will need to be bored to 65.5. I found place in PA I can send it to. Www.powersealusa.com
They put some type of sealer on the cylinder wall that supposedly increases the life span. Anyone hear of this? Or is it a sham?

I'll fill us all in tomorrow evening on what develops.
Thank guys. : )
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/23/4a789e3833a8d4d4f3a85f0249b8f16f.jpg

[thehorse13]

Before you order your kit, it would be wise to dismantle the top end and inspect the bore. If it needs to be honed or bored over, you will need to know before purchasing your top end rebuild parts.

Being 40 under is a good sign that the motor is tired but I see that you have a Harbor Freight compression tool. Are you sure that the gauge is accurate? Just about everything in that store is pure garbage. I wouldn't trust precision measurement tools to cheap Chinese manufacturing but that's just me.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Yeah... I hear you on that. I'm not big on Harbor Freight stuff. This purchase occurred when convenience and cost came into alignment. I'm thinking I'll set my compressor regulator and blow into it and see what I get.

[knappyfeet]

I don't know......I've been buying tools from HF ever sinced they opened their doors here since 90 or 89. At,first a lot of items were of lessor quality. But I have 2 compression testers currently and more over the years and can say I am satisfied with their performance. I have also noticed a quality improvement of most of their items over the years. I would say half of my tools are craftsman and the other half HF.

I would do a complete overhaul...including the head. Also I would purchase an air box lid. Your going to have a nice little peppy bike when your finished.

[oldskool83]

these motors are easy to rebuilt. Ive done many and do not need a manual. While you are in there send the gear kicker gears out be to be back cut...with out doing that anyone is a fool to put that motor back together...one day it will slip and then your going to do it all over again.

[thehorse13]

these motors are easy to rebuilt. Ive done many and do not need a manual. While you are in there send the gear kicker gears out be to be back cut...with out doing that anyone is a fool to put that motor back together...one day it will slip and then your going to do it all over again.

Yea, mine slips every so often but I'm not ready to tear the motor apart just yet. There is a guy on here who sells a rebuild kit that allegedly solves the problem. I think I will give his kit a try when I decide that it's time to pull apart the motor. For now, I'm just going to be 14 again and ride the piss out of this 200X.


I would say half of my tools are craftsman and the other half HF.

As for HF tools, I can certainly understand buying some of their stuff but I'm just funny about precision tools like gauges, torque wrenches, etc.

[BigRedGrizzly]

So... I managed to get the new tie rods on the Trx90 without any problems. Then I bounced over to the 200X. I adjusted the valves. They were pretty tight. Loosened just a hair and messed with the cam chain tensioner. I use these screws and pull the tensioner up to tighten.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/24/83c0f95081aabfba7f918b893a771d30.jpg
It was the quietest when I pulled up pretty hard on it. There is enough tension on the chain to actually slow the rpms a bit. I have it set like that now. I hope it's not too much. Any advice on that?
I also sifted through the oil I drained and it appears that the shavings are aluminum. They are not sticking to my magnet.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/24/e12235c33b1c3c4c0e015911508b9eaf.jpg
This engine has obviously been apart before. My interest is peaked and I'm feeling driven to take this engine out and get into. Here's a couple pics.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/24/d58f94f55884bf4440ac7ce6bd2cffaa.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/24/e8c71261ff087c0ab2bb2b59b82340b2.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/24/9788f91c0578bac443005d7cb63c1414.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/24/3afc67c14fa05e75a9cb6729fa1d0125.jpg

[Jmoozy27]

Eek, that head bolt is scary. It hard to torque a screw properly.

[BigRedGrizzly]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/24/ea53905280a6a5d897d16b6cb59bd6e4.jpg
Tested the gauge. It's close. I couldn't get a perfect seal so there was some lost air pressure.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ok fellas.... I hiked up the skirt and pulled the motor out. Went pretty smooth... My biggest concern for this part was removing the exhaust header nuts. When I went to remove them the entire stud came out. It looked like there was never seize on the threads the screwed into the engine. Could be a lot worse. I'll order new studs and nuts. I drained the oil before the removal and found very few metal shavings. I guess it the was cam chain rubbing on the case. I can also see there was some damage to the cam lobes.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/628d584b29ed3e0053f031acf2adec04.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/8f924db434d4cc5631b0d5277962f980.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/ee227cc9c439756adea38166ff65b5c9.jpg
**BIG QUESTION HERE **
Is it possible for the engine to run if the pin on the cam for the pulses is missing? Someone was in this engine before and I noticed some other dowels and bolts were either replaced or missing. When I removed the pulser I was looking for that pin but it wasn't there. I'm worried that it may have dropped down the cam chain channel. But I was looking for it and never saw it in its spot. I can order the part so I will.
The cylinder looks good. Smooth and no scratches anywhere.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/d06be927720132d723c3ca70ed50f4e4.jpg
The piston and rings appear to be original so I plan to replace them. I'm thinking about getting the Wiseco kit.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/9ce380799ac366e6c8c9d036da986cea.jpg
Overall I say you guys were right. It wasn't bad at all. Fun actually. The only worry have is that damn pin. Ugh! It going to bother me until it's back together and running without problems. Here are some more pics from this disassembly.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/4c0795c9cdf9cca05bfc2424f0c6fd5f.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/90cae0c379c75dd114963997f88b864b.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/b5d5db714e8fc50600bc695fd1741e54.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/bdd89f2b02a0523556c754cc94de3ad6.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/80a64659ce8a19406a66d9f215266cbe.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/0ea0aee2cbd82a7ef13ff9d458aa8f24.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/f1650883dc30935530612fe2ce9aa143.jpg

[Jmoozy27]

You can get another cam either used or get one from webcam. That one does not need to go back in.

http://www.webcamshafts.com/index_blank.html?pages/vehicle_search.html

If you clean the piston it should tell you if it is oversized or not. How do the rocker arms look? Judging from the cam you may need to change those as well.

[shortline10]

I see it has aftermarket valve springs and what looks like a hard weld aftermarket camshaft , and numbers on it ? WB40 ?

[yaegerb]

good eye mike, those retainers are not OEM, noticed that off the bat, but you got me with the hardweld cam. BTW, that cam is ghandi....as jmoozy suggested, webcams.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Hey Jay... I'll look into the piston size tomorrow. The rockers appeared fine to me but I'm a novice. I'll take a close up pic tomorrow. I found where the cam chain was rubbing.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/79a26ffe62e5890c2c52788165a52282.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ok. Thanks guys... I'll definitely be replacing the cam. I had no idea it was not original. When I took it out I did notice an engraving in it. It was like WB13013 or something like that. How can you tell about the valve springs and retainers? Color? Shape? I'm curious to know also.

[BigRedGrizzly]

By the time I'm done with this, I feel like I'm going to owe you guys a bunch of beers. May be trikefest next year. I'm grateful for your guidance. Thank you.

[yaegerb]

Those retainers look just like my webcams titanium retainers. Most definitely not stock. Somebody tried to hi-po that motor before. Do you have a set of calipers? I am curious of the bore size. When/if you send off for a new cam, send your rockers into webcams as well to get them checked for previous hardweld. If they haven't been done they need to be. My guess is that's a high profile cam with heavy springs which means easy wear on OEM rockers.

[Jmoozy27]

Ok. Thanks guys... I'll definitely be replacing the cam. I had no idea it was not original. When I took it out I did notice an engraving in it. It was like WB13013 or something like that. How can you tell about the valve springs and retainers? Color? Shape? I'm curious to know also.

Mike and Brennan have been in these motors many times over. Probably way more than they wanted to.:lol: I didn't notice any of that as I have never opened up a first gen motor. If that motor had aftermarket mods then it has likely been bored before. I wonder if it has a higher compression piston.

[knappyfeet]

How were the piston rings? I'm also curious if there's any seepage from the valves and if there was any "ridge" in the cylinder.

[barnett468]

.
No a small exhaust leak will not cause a noticeable reduction in perf.

There are two major aftermarket cam mfg’s for bikes . . their contact info is below . . I suggest you contact them and see if either can identify the exact grind by the WB13013 number on it . . This may help guide you in your cam selection . . Also, in general, installing sa bigger cam basically raises the entire rpm range which creates a loss of bottom end power which needs to be compensated for by increasing compression . . It looks like you have a big cam and obviously a stock compression . . A higher compression piston should have been installed with this cam for optimum perf and you could still run 91 octane gas.

http://www.megacyclecams.com/

http://www.webcamshafts.com/index_blank.html?pages/vehicle_search.html


I would not plate the cylinder, its overkill and just another thing to peel off and fail . . A properly built engine with good oil will last years . . Keep this in mind . . If that is a stock piston, it has 30 years of use with probably less than the best quality oil in it and it is [or was] still running “decently”.

[barnett468]

.
If you're not sure what the carb is you can post photos part numbers, bore size on exit side and look inside to see if the bore is round or oval . . The stock carbs are too small for performance builds.

[barnett468]

.
Check the cam chain tensioners for wear.

Some high quality oem Japanese type parts are made by Shindy

http://www.shindypro.com/atv.html


Some nos parts can be found at the site below.

http://www.cmsnl.com/
.

[barnett468]

.

If you want to increase longevity, you can send your piston out to have the skirts coated with a lubricity coating.

http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/


This is a 10.25 wiseco piston . . it is the highest compression I would use for 91 octane.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzE4WDEwMjQ=/$%28KGrHqEOKm4E5qNunF25BOgnYHg+nQ~~60_57.JPG
.

[BigRedGrizzly]

I stopped out in the garage this morning to snap some pics and take some measurements.
I believe the piston to be stock at 65mm. Cylinder diameter matches.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/0bef15d7d6128214520d68dd95c8eaff.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/b3b73cf37991a72f6dadc44b2941636b.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/bb3cd78e1eaf34ba573f9ceda71dceea.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/d1b8cf61c8d562a5c2f7d8c68b5d3fcf.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/4155dea46df4848ecbe0b3278b066791.jpg

The cam looks like the engraving reads WB613. I think there was a company called White Brothers who manufactured cams and exhausts. They still may exist. I'm wondering if that's what the WB stands for? Here are some close up pics of the cam with a scale.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/53d2d0128c5893e7d083c2e9efda87ed.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/b646cef43617b2d1519d031d6865c4ca.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/f7044e9e8930412fe9bf5422b3db3d72.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/140bb43295d58b3efcb340a4d98f3cae.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/c9431e2c8eebbe0acc80eeb18a3d7a33.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/1e784c0b1bc0574425ee08e60e45f664.jpg
I'll talk a closer look at the carb after work but I'm pretty sure it's OEM.

[86125m]

the little cam pin is still available just order it online or go to you local dealer or shop and see if it isn't in stock if not have them order it so you don't have to pay shipping. there not expensive like 5 bucks if i remember correctly

[86125m]

Oh and yes that is the stock piston the numbers 965 indicate a 65 mm piston which is the stock size.

[yaegerb]

so likely that's a white brothers cam. Good aftermarket stuff back in the day. I would send that cam to webcams and have them tell you the profile and see what they have to match. My guess is it isnt' too radical, likely a mid-range cam. Don't forget to send in your rockers to check for hard weld and if it hasn't been done, get it done. Then, as Barnett suggested above, since you are running stock bore, you really aren't getting much benefit from the higher profile cam. I would punch it to 66MM. You will have a nice little machine with a 66MM/mid-range cam and exhaust. If you leave the stroke the same you will gain around 4MM of displacement and it will now be a 197cc rather than a 194 and you should get some low end torque back.

Here's the piston I would get.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Piston-Kit-66-00-mm-10-25-1-Honda-ATC200X-1983-1985-/391102341365?hash=item5b0f8420f5&vxp=mtr

Its gonna give you the displacement with a manageable compression ratio so you aren't married to race gas.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ok got it. Bore it to 66. New piston kit to match bore. Since the valve springs appear to be or are performance grade I need to get a cam that will work with 66 piston, the DG after market exhaust, and the valve springs. I'm thinking this cam.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/17e4919db6edada8555a452bd76857c1.jpg

[yaegerb]

yep, that's the one I use in my 200x motors. Nice cam.

Also, I assume you are using a 24MM keihin. I would thoroughly clean that carb, and rebuild it with a shindy kit. Go to jets r us and get a 110, 112 main jet. Leave pilot at 40. Start with a 112 main and lower your needle clip 1 slot. That should be enough for your mods. I would also upgrade your air filter to a uni if you haven't already.

[knappyfeet]

O.K. I'll be the square of the bunch and say why don't you just source a good stock cam? Maybe a new timing chain as well. How is the bore? Is it worn? Does it need to be bored out to 66? If the standard bore is serviceable I might leave it alone....if its serviceable.

The old XR motors of the day were finely tuned performance engines in stock form. They were designed with ease of starting, good performance, ride ability, nice power bands and dependability. What someone came in and did was install a cam, leave the stock bore, stock intake and carb.....probably jetted it poorly and drilled holes in the air box.....all of which destroyed what Honda engineered into this motor. Sure it might be quicker in a 500 rpm range somewhere near redline but if your not living there all this is a quick fix.

Just for my 2 cents......instal stock cam, new timing chain,,check rockers, hone the bore and see if its within limits and serviceable, new rings and ill bet new valves are in order as well. Then you can adjust jetting sizes.

[yaegerb]

O.K. I'll be the square of the bunch and say why don't you just source a good stock cam? Maybe a new timing chain as well. How is the bore? Is it worn? Does it need to be bored out to 66? If the standard bore is serviceable I might leave it alone....if its serviceable.

The old XR motors of the day were finely tuned performance engines in stock form. They were designed with ease of starting, good performance, ride ability, nice power bands and dependability. What someone came in and did was install a cam, leave the stock bore, stock intake and carb.....probably jetted it poorly and drilled holes in the air box.....all of which destroyed what Honda engineered into this motor. Sure it might be quicker in a 500 rpm range somewhere near redline but if your not living there all this is a quick fix.

Just for my 2 cents......instal stock cam, new timing chain,,check rockers, hone the bore and see if its within limits and serviceable, new rings and ill bet new valves are in order as well. Then you can adjust jetting sizes.

Great suggestion for OEM. Personally I like to put my own spin on motors....to each his own.

[knappyfeet]

Great suggestion for OEM. Personally I like to put my own spin on motors....to each his own.

I'm with you on that.

What a lot of folks don't understand is practically any motorcycle engine is a high performance motor....even your singles, tourers, etc......all have a performance history engineered into them. Some mistake a motorcycle engine for a chevy 350...where you change a cam here, intake there and get some performance enhancements due to the way automobile engines are manufactured. Not so in a typical motorcycle engine.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Hmm... Decisions..decisions. Thanks for routing me through the options. The cylinder is in fine shape which is making me NOT want to bore it. But since the valve springs are beefed and we believe the cam may be beefed as well it's making me want to put the same profile came in it. Would putting the stock profile cam in there have any adverse effects on the valves, springs, rocker arms or cam itself since the springs are a bit beefed? Pardon my ignorance but is there such thing as a hi performance stock size piston? For example, would I benefit from having a 65mm Wiseco piston over a OEM 65mm piston. If so, I may consider that.
Thanks again crew.

[knappyfeet]

Hmm... Decisions..decisions. Thanks for routing me through the options. The cylinder is in fine shape which is making me NOT want to bore it. But since the valve springs are beefed and we believe the cam may be beefed as well it's making me want to put the same profile came in it. Would putting the stock profile cam in there have any adverse effects on the valves, springs, rocker arms or cam itself since the springs are a bit beefed? Pardon my ignorance but is there such thing as a hi performance stock size piston? For example, would I benefit from having a 65mm Wiseco piston over a OEM 65mm piston. If so, I may consider that.
Thanks again crew.

I honestly don't want to change your mind. Everyone likes what they like and that's great. If you are going to install all these performance upgrades and not do the most crucial part (and most expensive....machining head, larger intake manifold, carb, etc) then you results and ride ability might suffer.

[yaegerb]

Hmm... Decisions..decisions. Thanks for routing me through the options. The cylinder is in fine shape which is making me NOT want to bore it. But since the valve springs are beefed and we believe the cam may be beefed as well it's making me want to put the same profile came in it. Would putting the stock profile cam in there have any adverse effects on the valves, springs, rocker arms or cam itself since the springs are a bit beefed? Pardon my ignorance but is there such thing as a hi performance stock size piston? For example, would I benefit from having a 65mm Wiseco piston over a OEM 65mm piston. If so, I may consider that.
Thanks again crew.

yes, here is a std. bore with higher compression ratio.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1981-1985-Honda-ATC200-E-X-M-WISECO-STANDARD-BORE-65mm-PISTON-ATC-200X-200M-200E-/371210906151?hash=item566de4ea27&vxp=mtr

I know that your cylinder walls look great, but you need a machine shop to tell you if its perfectly round. If its not, then you might as well do an overbore and larger piston.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ahh.. I understand now. One cannot simply look at the cylinder and say "yeah, it's good". Measurements need to be taken to verify that. Got it. I'm not looking to make a hi performance machine. I was dealt a machine with some hi performance parts in it. I intend on keeping this 200X for a long time to ride with my family. Ideally, I'm looking to invest my money in longevity and efficiency. From reading earlier in this thread it sounds like if it is bored to 60 I can use the OEM carb but will need to adj. the jets. I'm ok with that.
I make the decision tonight.....[emoji106]

[atc007]

Just skimming fast, Sorry if this was mentioned. Always, measure a piston at the widest part ,which is bottom of the skirts , opposite of the wrist pin. IN/EX. Good advice here to tune ya right up :)

[Jmoozy27]

I like the idea of slightly modifying it. Mild cam, first overbore, 10.25:1 broken in properly will be loads of fun and still dry reliable.

[barnett468]

.


Hello all... I finally found a 200X what appears to be in pretty good condition. It feels like it's lacking the power my 200s has. The X definitely doesn't wheely as easily. I'm not I'm not 100% sure what my next move should be. I've heard from some that a complete upper and lower rebuild is required. Chassis is sound. Engine has me concerned. Any guidance on which step or steps I should take next would be appreciated.

Is your 200s stock?


RACING HISTORY

Just because a company has a racing history, it does not mean that the engines they put in the production bikes are even remotely close to the same as the ones they put in their race cars, and in fact, I can guarantee you that they are not . . If Honda made a CRF200, it would probably have 30% more hp and probably weigh 20% less than yours.

ATC’s just like yours are intentionally designed to provide MODERATE performance and be easy to operate so people with moderate riding skill can easily handle them . . If someone wanted a high performance box stock 3 wheeler, they would be buying a “Tecate…The Worlds Most Powerful 3 Wheeler” and a good life insurance policy.


GOALS

The above being said, you can easily get 30% more hp from your engine, so you simply need to decide exactly what you want out of it . . If it were mine, I would probably build it so it had around 200 hp and was barely rideable, if I was going to give it to my 14 year old kid whom has limited riding skill, I would leave it basically stock but add a pipe so it sounds cool and they would think that they are going fast.

After you decide what you want, I would ask here how to achieve that goal . . Yeagerb mentioned that he has the exact same Web cam you are looking at, for so you can ask him if his engine is something he would let an inexperienced young rider operate etc.


CAMSHAFT

Measure the width of the lobe also and with the height information, we can guestimate how “big” of a cam it is.

As I mentioned, that cam will have a small but still noticeable, greater amount of power with a 10.25 compression piston . . I can also see that your engine was burning at least a little oil so it had to be at least a little down on compression from stock so even just redoing the top end with a stock piston will increase the power albeit by probably a small margin.


COMPRESSION

If you are using 91 octane gas or higher, you can run a 10.25 piston without fear of detonation, therefore, if you want more power than stock and better throttle response than stock, there is absolutely no reason not to run a 10.25 compression piston, but obviously, the choice is yours . . I will add that increasing the compression will make it slightly harder kick over, but by the sounds of it, it probably won't be much harder to kick over than your 200s is . . If you want it as a training tool for your kids, than I might just leave the compression and cam stock but still bore it out, but only go .25 mm [.010"] over if I could find a piston that size.


CARBURETOR

The higher the compression, the more volumetric efficiency your engine will be . . This means, that as volumetric efficiency increase, the carburetor size should or could be increased.

The higher the rpms, the bigger the carb should be because the greater the air flow requirements are.

The XR200, is a more powerful engine that the ATC200x and it revs farther and it has a bigger carb . . If I increased the compression, and the cam size, I would definitely increased the carb size proportionally, which in your case would be by around 2 – 3 mm . . This size increase is also a very conservative one . . I have seen people run much bigger carbs than this in these engines but that doesn’t mean they weren’t too big . . I was 16 once too, and at that time I thought that if I put a 900 cfm double pumper Holley on my nearly stock 265 ci Chevy engine, it would magically have 100 more hp, lol.


BORING THE CYLINDER

I wouldn’t even waste my time measuring a 30 year old cylinder that obviously burns oil . . Yes, some of the oil might be from the valves guides but it doesn’t matter . . The truer the bore is, the better the rings will seat which equates to more compression and the LONGER it will last before you have to do it again.


BORE SIZE

Although you will get more power from a 1 mm over piston than you will from a .5 mm over piston, it will be a very, very small amount, therefore, I would only bore it to .5 over . . The benefits of this are that you will not only have an additional bore you can now do if needed, but it will in fact run slightly cooler because of the slightly thicker cylinder wall, and after all, it is an AIR cooled engine.

[barnett468]

.
Ok, the small end of your camshaft that rides inside the steel bushing is junk . . This means the bushing is likely junk, so I would simply buy a new one from the site below . . They also have a stock cam if you want one.

In my experience, this bushing is a weak area as I have seen many cams scored like yours, so unless yeagerb or someone else has a better way to get oil to it, I might consider sending it out to get a lubricity coating on it . . The two best ones are either moly WOS2 or tungsten disulphide WS2 . . NASA used the tungsten dry on the NASA space rovers and one of them is still going around 10 years later and it weighs around 408 lbs, lol . .

You could even get it for your cam, and the other bearing surface on your head and valve cover and these parts will basically last forever and it’s fairly cheap to do.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc200x-1985-usa_model7183/partslist/E++04.html#results

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc200x-1985-usa_model7183/bush-camshaft_12260437000/#.VY3GaVLLDdV

http://images.cmsnl.com/img/products/bushcamshaft_medium12260437000-01_e3e3.jpg


Here's a bit more info on the tungsten disulphide coating.


WS2 TUNGSTEN DISULPHIDE

Rockwell hardness 30 hrc.

Load bearing capability is 100,000 - 300,000 psi.

Has better dry lubricity than any other substance.

Coefficient of Friction is 0.07 static, 0.03 kinetic/dynamic.

For comparison, the kinetic/dynamic coefficient of friction for Moly is around 5 times higher at 0.19 static, 0.16 kinetic/dynamic.

The coefficient of friction reduces the higher the load is.

It can also be used in high temperature and high pressure applications and offers temperature resistance from -450 F to +1200 F.

Thickness after application is .5 - 1.0 microns [0.0000196 - 0.000039] therefore it will have absolutely no affect on clearances.


Coatings don't get much cooler than this stuff.
.

[barnett468]

.
CYLINDER HEAD VALVES

At the very least I would spray carb cleaner in each port one at a time then look at the valve to see if it is leaking or weeping . . If it is you can decide what to do then.


VALVE SPRINGS

As far as your valve spring question goes, yes, you should put lighter springs in if you run a stock cam because it will make the cam, head, valves, and rocker arms last longer.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Wow guys! All great advice. I need time absorb it all and thoroughly check things out. Here's some work I did today disassembling.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/26/c187caeeaac365a5e94de7b67d31688d.jpg

[barnett468]

.
Your gonna take it all apart and paint it now, aren't ya?

[barnett468]

.
OIL PUMP INSPECTION AND BLUEPRINTING

The oil pump is a frequently overlooked area, so I would disassemble the oil pump and inspect it, especially since the housing is aluminum and you obviously have some metal in the engine that could gouge it up . . Plus it is 30 years old.

I would also do the following because that’s the way I am, but it is a bit of overkill for a stock engine . . One of the reasons I would do this is because if possible, I would drill a hole from the cam bearing surfaces into an oil passage to increase oil flow to the cam bearings because if I remember correctly and from what I can see in your photos, there is not constant pressurized oil flow to the cam.

This is the oil pump housing . . the oil pump gears sit in here and they should be flush with the top of the housing . . if they are below the surface of the housing, then the pump is not operating at optimum efficiency, in which case all you need to do is the following.

Put a piece if 400 grit sand paper on a granite counter top or window next to the frame.

Spray water or WD40 on it.

Place the housing on the paper and sand it until the gears are flush with the surface.

The oil pump gasket cover will provide the correct clearance.

http://images.cmsnl.com/img/products/bodyoil-pump_medium15111437000-01_5876.jpg


Ok, I would do the following because that’s the way I am but it is a bit of overkill if the other oil passages are left stock . . One of the reasons I would do this is because I would drill a hole from the cam bearing surfaces into an oil passage of there is no direct oil supply to them.

This is the oil pump housing . . The oil pump gears sit in here and they should be flush with the top of the housing . . if they are below the surface of the housing, then the pump is not operating at optimum efficiency, in which case all you need to do is the following.

Put a piece if 400 grit sand paper on a granite counter top or window next to the frame.

Spray water or WD40 on it.

Place the housing on the paper and sand it until the gears are flush with the surface.

The oil pump cover gasket will provide the correct clearance.



These are the oil pump gears and they should also be the exact same height/thickness . . You can sand the taller of the two if you want but finish it off with around 800 grit so it doesn’t abrate the cover.

It the cover is lightly scored, you can sand that too with 800 only [not 400].

http://images.cmsnl.com/img/products/rotoroil-pump_medium15331921003-01_ccce.jpg

http://images.cmsnl.com/img/products/rotorpump-outer_medium15332921003-01_2f51.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

Yep... I'm on a roll... : )

[barnett468]

.
THOUGHT YOU MIGHT ENJOY READING ABOUT THIS OLD WHITE BROTHERS ATC200X BUILD

http://200x.webs.com/documents/WhiteBros200x.pdf

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks everybody. Here's my plan.
- Bore to 65.5
- Wiseco hi performance piston kit
- Slightly upgraded cam from stock since the valve springs are beefed
- Rockerarms hard welded

Getting all my parts in order and will ship Monday morning.

[knappyfeet]

Thanks everybody. Here's my plan.
- Bore to 65.5
- Wiseco hi performance piston kit
- Slightly upgraded cam from stock since the valve springs are beefed
- Rockerarms hard welded

Getting all my parts in order and will ship Monday morning.

Nice choice. BTW if you ever want that to run right again....include the airbox lid with your list of parts. I might also throw in a
K&N filter.

Your finish looks OK in the photo....any plans for refinishing?

[knappyfeet]

CAMSHAFT

Measure the width of the lobe also and with the height information, we can guestimate how “big” of a cam it is.

As I mentioned, that cam will have a small but still noticeable, greater amount of power with a 10.25 compression piston . . I can also see that your engine was burning at least a little oil so it had to be at least a little down on compression from stock so even just redoing the top end with a stock piston will increase the power albeit by probably a small margin.


COMPRESSION

If you are using 91 octane gas or higher, you can run a 10.25 piston without fear of detonation, therefore, if you want more power than stock and better throttle response than stock, there is absolutely no reason not to run a 10.25 compression piston, but obviously, the choice is yours . . I will add that increasing the compression will make it slightly harder kick over, but by the sounds of it, it probably won't be much harder to kick over than your 200s is . . If you want it as a training tool for your kids, than I might just leave the compression and cam stock but still bore it out, but only go .25 mm [.010"] over if I could find a piston that size.


CARBURETOR

The higher the compression, the more volumetric efficiency your engine will be . . This means, that as volumetric efficiency increase, the carburetor size should or could be increased.

The higher the rpms, the bigger the carb should be because the greater the air flow requirements are.

The XR200, is a more powerful engine that the ATC200x and it revs farther and it has a bigger carb . . If I increased the compression, and the cam size, I would definitely increased the carb size proportionally, which in your case would be by around 2 – 3 mm . . This size increase is also a very conservative one . . I have seen people run much bigger carbs than this in these engines but that doesn’t mean they weren’t too big . . I was 16 once too, and at that time I thought that if I put a 900 cfm double pumper Holley on my nearly stock 265 ci Chevy engine, it would magically have 100 more hp, lol.


BORING THE CYLINDER

I wouldn’t even waste my time measuring a 30 year old cylinder that obviously burns oil . . Yes, some of the oil might be from the valves guides but it doesn’t matter . . The truer the bore is, the better the rings will seat which equates to more compression and the LONGER it will last before you have to do it again.


BORE SIZE

Although you will get more power from a 1 mm over piston than you will from a .5 mm over piston, it will be a very, very small amount, therefore, I would only bore it to .5 over . . The benefits of this are that you will not only have an additional bore you can now do if needed, but it will in fact run slightly cooler because of the slightly thicker cylinder wall, and after all, it is an AIR cooled engine.

I don't think the OP is trying to build a "race engine".......he's trying to make his 200x not suck. He dosent have a benchmark of performance for his 200x primarily because it never ran correctly. I bet if he brought it to a completely stock operating condition it would feel like a race bike compared to how it is currently. It sounds as if his "S" model is peppier

[barnett468]

.

Hello all... I finally found a 200X what appears to be in pretty good condition. It feels like it's lacking the power my 200s has. The X definitely doesn't wheely as easily.

I don't think the OP is trying to build a "race engine".......he's trying to make his 200x not suck.

I guess you didn't read the rest of my posts, otherwise you would have realized that I don't either, which is why I didn’t suggest that he get titanium valves and titanium, springs, a super lightweight custom 12:1 piston from J and E with a short, thin wall, tapered tool steel pin, ported cylinder head, REM finishing transmission, ceramic titanium disulphide coated bearings, lightened flywheel and a multi spark high voltage ignition box etc, however, it does sound to me like he wants it to at least wheelie better than his 200s.




He dosent have a benchmark of performance for his 200x primarily because it never ran correctly. I bet if he brought it to a completely stock operating condition it would feel like a race bike compared to how it is currently. It sounds as if his "S" model is peppier

It seems to me that without a properly running, stock, 200x to compare to, it would be reasonable for most people to guess that the stock performance of a 200x would be at the very least equal to what looks like his stock 200s in the background of his photo in post 1, in which case he could use that as the low benchmark with the assumption that a 200x should run even slightly better than the 200s.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Yes.. A solid air box lid is in order. When I was filling out the (generic) paperwork to order the piston it asked if I would like to order the top end bearing as well. The existing connecting rod and wrist pin do not make use of this bearing. I'm think this is a generic question since I'd imagine most modern engines have a top end bearing.
Also,, if I remove this cover will it give me access to the timing chain. I ask for two reasons. One, I'd like to replace it. Two, that damn pin that goes on the cam for the pulser is not accounted for. I feel I should do my due diligence and at least inspect for it. I'd hate to all this work and then have it F'd up by that little pin because I didn't attempt to locate it.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/27/f64abe79e99eda79ee66d2bd1b6f9df3.jpg
Thanks for all your comments, guidance, and information. I feel a lot less naïve and way more comfortable. If this goes as well as expected I may get into the 200s motor next.

[knappyfeet]

Yes....you can remove the cover and the stator then get access to the cam chain, adjuster and arm and then remove. You might find your pin in that area. I think your correct assuming it's a generic question. Maybe they're talking about the cam bearing?

[barnett468]

.

TOP END BEARING

This is used on a two strokes, not a 4 strokes, so yes it is a generic question . . On stock automotive engines, the small end of the connecting rod is heated, then the pin is inserted thru the piston and rod . . When the rod cools, it tightens up on the pin . . On high perf automotive engines [custom builds], the pin floats freely on the rod just as it does on a motorcycle, however, in the case of automotive rods, they use bronze bushings in the small end when the pin is free floating.


MISSING DOWEL PIN

Well, your flywheel is magnetic, so if it did fall down there you might get lucky and find it stuck to that, lol . . If not, you can always get a magnetic drain plug which I like to run anyway to try and catch any steel rubbing off of the gears and if it is in the engine, it might eventually get caught by that . . In reality, it is not likely to get into the crank or gear box area because of the way the oil slots are designed and located, plus, even if it did, its weight would keep it on the bottom of the case which is away from everything.

If you don’t find it in that area, you could also magnetize a long thin screw driver by rubbing a magnet along the length of the shaft around 6 times in the same direction then poke it inside the different holes in the case to try and pick it up.

If Honda no longer has the pin or has something longer you can cut down, it is available from the site below, however, if you have a real industrial hardware supply store near you, you can likely find one there the correct od and simply grind it to the correct length if it’s too long . . Grainger also carries them but you need to buy a box of then for $20.00.

The size is 3 mm x 5.2 mm long.

http://www.grainger.com/category/ecatalog/N-1z0dpem

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc200x-1985-usa_model7183/pin-knock-3x52_30905216000/#.VY8BXlLLDdU

http://images.cmsnl.com/img/products/pin-knock-3x52_medium30905216000-01_0179.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks guys... Good info there. Honda does still have the pin so I do have it on order. I was looking for it during the disassembly but I swear I never saw it or heard it or anything. I'll get in there tomorrow. If that sucker is in there I'll find it.
Thanks for educating me on the top end bearing.

[barnett468]

.
FLYWHEEL PULLER

If you don't have one you can save yourself $15.00 by going to the industrial hardware stores and getting a 14 mm x 1.5 thread pitch hex bolt around 2" long or you can find them online at several places.

You can use an old school, adjustable strap wrench to hold the flywheel or just tighten the bolt then hit it with the air gun lightly but remove the timing chain first and while wearing a glove, hold the connecting rod so it doesn't beat the crap pout of the case as it flails around . . Inspect the end of the crank for flaring afterwards because they are pretty soft . . If it flared just file it flat, no big deal.

http://monsterfastener.com/item/cshs1-371?gclid=CJfIxYTnsMYCFYY9gQodr1YAdQ

[barnett468]

Thanks guys... Good info there. Honda does still have the pin so I do have it on order. I was looking for it during the disassembly but I swear I never saw it or heard it or anything. I'll get in there tomorrow. If that sucker is in there I'll find it.
Thanks for educating me on the top end bearing.

No prob, you're welcome . . I like to include a bit of additional info in some instances because I think it might be interesting for people like yourself whom seem to be interested in learning more than just the basics like how to check the oil screen and filter etc . . Many others here know these things also but are sometimes just more brief with their answers which of course is perfectly fine too.

[barnett468]

.
TIMING CHAIN

I would replace it due to its unknown condition . . I would not use anything other than an orig chain or a D.I.D. chain . . The box looks like the one below.

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/d/l140/m/mprVijkmc9SN9jz2XCCrEkQ.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

I took that cover off and looked below and aroundthe fly wheel. No pin to be found. The fly wheel puller for my 200s doesn't work with my 200x motor. I'll have to find one because I want to replace the cam chain.
I completed disassembly and nearly had a heart attack when I separated the steering stem. 6 of the lower ball bearings went flying. I managed to recover them all. I'm thinking it may be smart to replace them and the races while it's apart. At the very least clean very well and add new grease.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/a4bf45e8bd9cd95045da4edacdc7cebd.jpg
I also found a 1985 200SX toady. Engine sounds great. Smooth and sounds like a sewing machine. Neither of my 200s's or the X sounds as good. The rear fenders are trashed. Someone welded a pipe to the header. I guess I'll need to sawzall that baby off when it's time. Reverse works but the brake levers do not. I started looking at it closely when I got home and noticed something odd about the front forks. The left side appears shorter and the cap on top doesn't have an air valve. Not sure if it's supposed to yet. I'll looking at the service manual tonight.
Here's a couple pics.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/98159254bec1134c93130c14d99ed060.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/83568c36305f9e26d37d53fe873282d8.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/168cc62f22d67c2ac82d2ae41618e6b1.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/749848407fa3c8cd839eb49b58e461a3.jpg

[thehorse13]

That is absolutely not right. What you have there is a jerry-rigged 250sx. The side without the air cap is likely the original. The 250sx did not have air caps on the forks.

[knappyfeet]

Nice looking 250. How does it ride? Is that semi auto or full clutch. Looks like the atc bug bit you good.

[yaegerb]

Back to your 200x. Upgrade to all balls steering stem bearings since you went to the trouble to remove your front forks and tree. Do not leave the loose ball bearings in there as they are a PITA and a very outdated design.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks Horse... I'll have to try to find the correct one.

knappy... Seems to ride well, surprisingly. I guess it's a semi. No clutch lever. Yeah I'm bitten. The more I learn the more I want. I need to purge though. I'm trying to sell the 200s's I have. I don't want to but I just don't have room. The crazy part is I live in Jersey. There are no places to ride near me. I have to drive to East, PA or southwest, NY. I spend most of the time working on them. I really enjoy servicing and making them better. I'm 40. In 1985 I was 10 years old. I had a little 70. The older boys in my neighborhood had 200x's and SX's and 350x's. There's something about just looking at them that brings me back to a time in my childhood where I was very happy. I mean I'm a happily married man with two wonderful kids but it was a simpler time back then. It makes me happy. My wife can't get it. She doesn't understand. She was born in 1981 in England. They rode horses.

Yeager...good advice. Will do.

[fieldy]

Dude congratulations, there you go. Nice! Good canidate for front and rear racks......camp out Cadillac! High cotton right there.

[Jmoozy27]

I also found a 1985 200SX toady. Engine sounds great. Smooth and sounds like a sewing machine. Neither of my 200s's or the X sounds as good. The rear fenders are trashed. Someone welded a pipe to the header. I guess I'll need to sawzall that baby off when it's time. Reverse works but the brake levers do not. I started looking at it closely when I got home and noticed something odd about the front forks. The left side appears shorter and the cap on top doesn't have an air valve. Not sure if it's supposed to yet. I'll looking at the service manual tonight.


The longer fork looks like a first gen 200x fork. I can only imagine what springs are in there.

[barnett468]

The fly wheel puller for my 200s doesn't work with my 200x motor.


of course it won't . . i mentioned what you needed to pull the flywheel in post 73.

[knappyfeet]

Yea I'm with you BigRedGrizzly. .........I kinda fell into this addiction but haven't looked back since. My only regret is I sold my 350X......whatever. I just picked up an 82 big red that I thought my wife might want but she's a tick reluctant. I already committed to the gentleman I purchased it from so it's done. I have a line on a 110 that looks nice and original that I might do....just as another attempt for my wife. She feels she is going to die the instant she mounts one. She's so use to the LTZs that it's hard to get her into the idea of "3 wheeling". I thought the 82 big red might quell that mind set but I was wrong.....again.

I believe what Yeager is talking about are steering stem bearings at allballsracing.com. I go to them a lot for fork conversions, bearings, etc for street, cafe applications. Good guys. However I think you already learned triple tree removal on older bikes will have that setup. Nothing wrong with them. Some street bikes require modifying a bikes head to accommodate the upgrade....sometimes not worth it. I'm sure your next removal will be cautious.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Barnett....Yes sir.. I did go back and look at your post. Ironically enough the timing port to view the fly wheel on the 200s is also 14mm same pitch. The plug fused to case on one of my 200s so I drilled it out and tried to use the 14mm bolt clean out the threads. Didn't work. I bought the tap and it's all good now. But.. I still have the bolt. I shall use your suggested method. Thanks.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Schwing!! Great tip Barnett. Came off like a charm.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/8177b58774c4b790d66b1f3ea5a3d89f.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/fe4ec2e2ad3d8cacc5fb60477d7cc2ca.jpg
I don't see no stinkin dowel pin. I'm telling you all. It wasn't in the cam. Previous owner must have lost it!
My cylinder is packaged and shipping out tomorrow with my rocker arms and old cam. I'm purchasing the piston 65.5 Wiseco piston from the machine shop. They give you a good deal when your getting work done there. All that's left ordering the OEM replacement parts. Then I clean and paint the frame, tank, and other parts that require paint. A friend of mine suggested Stage 1 paint. I'll be checking that stuff out. Apparently it has the clear coat in it already. When one is going to paint. Is it required or best practice sand rough up previously painted paint to improve adhesion? I believe it should be primered as well.

[barnett468]

Barnett....Yes sir.. I did go back and look at your post. Ironically enough the timing port to view the fly wheel on the 200s is also 14mm same pitch. The plug fused to case on one of my 200s so I drilled it out and tried to use the 14mm bolt clean out the threads. Didn't work. I bought the tap and it's all good now. But.. I still have the bolt. I shall use your suggested method. Thanks.

ok, xlnt.

if you want to try and use the stock ball bearing system, just clean the races and look at them with a magnifying glass . . if you don't see any dents or waves they are fine.

you can find the balls at most bike shops . . the size is number 8 . . this is the size . . you can also get them on ebay.

they will be easy to install if you put the forks upright then clean the races and use heavy grease like old school brown wheel bearing grease or bel ray which is a little thinner.

install the bearings in the top before installing the forks.

there should be no space between the bearings . . if there is you are missing some . . looks like 18 on the bottom and 18 on the top.

it's much easier if you have a helper to hold the forks up when you install them so you can put the top race and nut on.

you can also try to put a tie down around them and the top tripple tree and pull it tight to hold it in place.
.
.





i

[knappyfeet]

A good single stage paint will have a urethane component in it......giving you the shine. Recommend complete removal of old finish. If not doing then sanding and a sealer...prior to a primer or sealer primer at minimum. This is going to look nice.

[barnett468]

Schwing!! Great tip Barnett. Came off like a charm.

most xlnt.



I don't see no stinkin dowel pin. Previous owner must have lost it!


if this is the case, it is quite possible that your ignitions timing was inaccurate, and if so, it was most likely retarded, because if it was too far advanced, you would have most likely heard it ping/detonate even with your low compression, and timing that is too low will cause a noticeable loss in power.


ADJUSTING TIMING

I would advance the timing on that bike 5 degrees when you reassemble it . . the stock timing is slightly conservative . . if the timing is too far advanced, you will hear it with the higher compression piston so there is no danger in doing this and it will likely increase your power throughout your entire rpm range a little plus it will increase throttle response.

.

[thehorse13]

250sx: I had an 85 250sx and it was the finest 3 wheeler that I have ever owned. I suspect you will spend quite a bit on her gathering parts but in the end, you will never part with this trike.

200x: You're doing fine on your rebuild and if you are this far into the engine, make sure you address the kick start gears. It would suck terribly if you get this all back together only to have the dreaded kick start miss surface.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Addressing the kick start:
I have no idea what this entails. I think I have to split the case to that right.
That scares the hell out of me. All I see is transmission gears falling out and getting mixed up. I have no idea how to put them back I the correct order. I'll have to look at the service manual. Hopefully it's not as complicated as I imagine it to be.

[yaegerb]

Addressing the kick start:
I have no idea what this entails. I think I have to split the case to that right.
That scares the hell out of me. All I see is transmission gears falling out and getting mixed up. I have no idea how to put them back I the correct order. I'll have to look at the service manual. Hopefully it's not as complicated as I imagine it to be.

Do you have any issues with the kickstarter slipping when you start it now?

[BigRedGrizzly]

Fortunately, no.

[BigRedGrizzly]

These are the gears everyone is concerned about correct? I heard there is a replacement kit someone sells and is also a member of this site. I also heard it was a good idea to get them back cut.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/29/e4d99661b068b36e6731c3c4a2f1a7ff.jpg

[yaegerb]

yes, those are the gears. Worst design ever for a kickstarter IMHO.

Shortline10 used to sell heavy duty replacement kits for the 200x. I don't know if he has kits anymore. Back cutting is a love-hate relationship with me. I have seen success with back cutting if you are running a lower compression motor. Back cutting did not work on my 200x motor (stroked/12:1 piston/cam/etc) which shouldn't be a surprise because you are actually grinding the teeth sharper and cutting more meat from the tooth itself. Under extreme compression, you just shear the teeth off. Shortline10 doesn't recommend back cutting, just using a set of his HD gears.

You are really rolling the dice with a replacement. If you don't have issues now, you might by upping the compression ratio with your new piston. If you want to replace them, I suggest trying to score an NOS set off EBAY or asking Shortline10 if he has a set left. Or, maybe you have a non-abused motor and you will be good to go for as long as you own it. Your call in the end.

[barnett468]

.
Here’s the actual offending items . . They are available from the site below.

The teeth are soft and get rounded . . You can increase their service life considerably by pre-loading the spring by around .100” with shims and getting the gears case hardened or getting just the engagement teeth induction hardened . . There should be some heat treaters near you that can help.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc200x-1985-usa_model7183/partslist/E++13.html#results


p/n 28221-437-000

http://images.cmsnl.com/img/products/rachetstarter_medium28221437000-01_cd6a.jpg


p/n 28211-965-680 or 28211-KT0-770

http://images.cmsnl.com/img/products/28211kt0770-pinion-kick-start_medium28211965680-01_76c7.jpg

[knappyfeet]

Yea if your not having issues I wouldn't change it. But if you decide to separate the case....then go all out with new bearings......if your going to keep the bike for awhile. It's a not as difficult as it sounds.

[BigRedGrizzly]

ATC 200X
I am waiting for the cylinder, rocker arms, and cam to get back to me for the 200x. 2weeks from Tuesday. Ugh. I got the AllBalls upgrade steering stem bearings in the mail yesterday. I am trying to understand how they need to be installed. Looks like I may need some special tools. Trying to avoid that though. This weekend I plan to degrease and sand the frame and the gas tank. I hope to have them both at least primed. There was rust in the fast tank so I used this stuff called metal rescue. Left it in the tank for 24 hours. Looks new in there again. Amazing. I'll never be afraid of a rusty tank again.

ATC 250SX
In the mean time I ordered a set of forks of eBay for the 250SX. I would like to rebuild them if it is warranted. At least change the fork oil, fork seal, dust cap, and fork boots. I've been watching vids and reading how to do this. Doesn't seem too bad. I think I need to get a fork seal driver though to set the seal properly. I also noticed the choke cable which goes to the starting circuit is disconnected. I ordered a new left switch panel with the choke lever because the one I have is destroyed. The carb on this baby looks a bit complicated compared to the 200s and 200X. I'll need to take it out and open it up to get a good look at it and see how it works. This bike needs a good amount TLC but when I'm done with it I expect it to be everything I ever wanted. Oh yeah, one other hurdle. The gas tanks has some dents. The two on the left I popped out using the hot glue and butt of a hammer technique. The other side is worse and not really moving. So, I'll be learning body work as well. Bondo and sanding, prime and paint.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/02/ef9f185e5d7ffc0ae6c422c0508af054.jpg

[yaegerb]

ATC 200X
I am waiting for the cylinder, rocker arms, and cam to get back to me for the 200x. 2weeks from Tuesday. Ugh. I got the AllBalls upgrade steering stem bearings in the mail yesterday. I am trying to understand how they need to be installed. Looks like I may need some special tools. Trying to avoid that though. This weekend I plan to degrease and sand the frame and the gas tank. I hope to have them both at least primed. There was rust in the fast tank so I used this stuff called metal rescue. Left it in the tank for 24 hours. Looks new in there again. Amazing. I'll never be afraid of a rusty tank again.

ATC 250SX
In the mean time I ordered a set of forks of eBay for the 250SX. I would like to rebuild them if it is warranted. At least change the fork oil, fork seal, dust cap, and fork boots. I've been watching vids and reading how to do this. Doesn't seem too bad. I think I need to get a fork seal driver though to set the seal properly. I also noticed the choke cable which goes to the starting circuit is disconnected. I ordered a new left switch panel with the choke lever because the one I have is destroyed. The carb on this baby looks a bit complicated compared to the 200s and 200X. I'll need to take it out and open it up to get a good look at it and see how it works. This bike needs a good amount TLC but when I'm done with it I expect it to be everything I ever wanted. Oh yeah, one other hurdle. The gas tanks has some dents. The two on the left I popped out using the hot glue and butt of a hammer technique. The other side is worse and not really moving. So, I'll be learning body work as well. Bondo and sanding, prime and paint.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/02/ef9f185e5d7ffc0ae6c422c0508af054.jpg

Concerning your steering head bearings procedure, read the following. good article.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/65475-How-to-Tapered-headset-bearings?highlight=all+balls+bearing+instal

[thehorse13]

Before you put a ton of time and money into that tank, it may be cheaper, easier and better to find a nice replacement tank on Evil-Bay. Just something to think about because bodywork is an art that you will not master on the first try.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Damn... A decent tank on Evil bay is about 200 bucks. I'm going to try it myself. Putty and paint, make it what it ain't.

[thehorse13]

That is insane. Maybe another member here has a tank or you could check Craigslist.

Post pics if you are going to try the body work. Some of us are well versed in body repair.

[Jmoozy27]

Those carbs aren't too bad. See the link below:

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/161746-ES-SX-350X-Carb-rebuild-Tutoral?highlight=250es+carb

As for driving the seals I use a PVC pipe around that size and it worked fine.

[barnett468]

ATC 200X
I am waiting for the cylinder, rocker arms, and cam to get back to me for the 200x. 2weeks from Tuesday. Ugh. I got the AllBalls upgrade steering stem bearings in the mail yesterday. I am trying to understand how they need to be installed. Looks like I may need some special tools. Trying to avoid that though.
you can easily avoid that by simply putting steel balls back in it if your races are good which in many cases they are . . you will feel no difference between the steel balls and the tapered bearing . . the tapered bearings are not a performance upgrade in any way and steel balls have been used since the beginning of time.

.

[barnett468]

ATC 200X
There was rust in the fast tank so I used this stuff called metal rescue. Left it in the tank for 24 hours. Looks new in there again. Amazing. I'll never be afraid of a rusty tank again.

your tank will rust again unless you coat it with sealer.

[knappyfeet]

your tank will rust again unless you coat it with sealer.
Absolutely correct plus you might have pinholes that might develop a leak in the future....at the worst time.....after you finish your tank. Caswell or what I use Hirsch are great sealers. Do it prior to applying the finish to your tank and try not to be sloppy as it can cause Birdseye when painting.

[Jmoozy27]

Redkote is the best tank liner money can buy. I got mine at O'Reilly for $30

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks, Jay..... I was watching videos on YouTube. It looks thick. I'm worried about it clogging the petcock attachment area. I guess one should just put a plug in there. I'm definitely doing to both tanks. The 250SX and the 200X.

[Jmoozy27]

Yes remove the petcock first. Do it right the first time and it will be your last. It's a permanent fix. Nothing can faze the stuff.

[BigRedGrizzly]

When you all begin painting the the frame, do you tape off every hole a bolt goes through? I'm concerned about paint building up and decreasing space for bolts and threads to move through with proper clearance.

[thehorse13]

Sometimes they are painted to prevent corrosion. Look at the holes first and determine if this is the case. At worst, a dremmel tool with a sandpaper wheel can easily clear a bolt passage.

[Jmoozy27]

When you all begin painting the the frame, do you tape off every hole a bolt goes through? I'm concerned about paint building up and decreasing space for bolts and threads to move through with proper clearance.

I usually thread bolts in them halfway then paint. It also gives you something to hang the frame from.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Alright guys... Got both the tank and frame primered and painted. The frame needs a second coat. I'm very happy with the tank so far. I'm pretty sure I'll be happy when the second coat goes on the frame tomorrow.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/04/3c99cf00c60b7a863144cad50082100c.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/04/8936d9cb0f643f64a146c6c553b4f858.jpg

[barnett468]

.
looks xlnt . . i usually spray verathane clear lacquer over the paint to protect it and make it shiny . . home depot has it.

you can protect the tank after by putting clear plastic over the sides . . same with parts of the frame your boots might rub . . just replace it as necessary.
.

[Jmoozy27]

It looks good Daryl! That thing is gonna be plush!!!:beer

[BigRedGrizzly]

Got it back rolling. Can't wait to get the tank back on.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/fe2ccb6d6f75a508b7b09d3a2d9ed8a6.jpg

[ImmortalX]

I might have missed it but what paint did you use for the frame and tank?

[BigRedGrizzly]

Scuffed up existing paint and used Rustoleum auto primer and Rustoleum Sunrise Red. Same with the tank only white. Obviously.

[Jmoozy27]

Sunrise red is a close match. It's what I used on my 86 tank.

[BigRedGrizzly]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/05/42cc64387791871da398514225d168d6.jpg
Man that tank is bright..

[ImmortalX]

How do you think that paints gonna hold up on the tank? Rattle can paint doesn't really hold up to fuel well at all

[BigRedGrizzly]

I have no idea... I know little to nothing about painting. I hit it with a verathane lacquer to try to help protect it. I was considering a stage 1 paint, but I don't have the setup for that right now. I guess I'll find out how this stuff works. Good or bad.

[barnett468]

I have no idea... I know little to nothing about painting. I hit it with a verathane lacquer to try to help protect it. I was considering a stage 1 paint, but I don't have the setup for that right now. I guess I'll find out how this stuff works. Good or bad.

It will be harder to. Scratch with the verathane I suggested but it will still scratch easily . . this is why I suggested the clear adhesive vinyl on the sidr add . . they make thin and thick for kitchen drawer liners available at home depot etc . . there is also one specific for paint too . . you can find it on Google search . . let your paint dry several days before applying so it won't remove paint when you take it off

[ImmortalX]

I'd clear coat the crap out of it. And put it in a oven to bake on that'll help it cure better than just sitting outside

[BigRedGrizzly]

I'm expecting some parts in for the engine towards the end of the week. As I was going through the process in my head I realized I didn't order a gasket for the valve cover. When I was looking it up I realized why. There wasn't one listed on the micro fiche parts finder thingy. I'd imagine that a gasket is required, no? There was the red silicone gasket on there previously. If I have to go this route again does anyone have a suggestion on type and technique?
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/06/625811c1c620376ecbca3d18dc49dd43.jpg

[thehorse13]

Check out bikebandit.com or hondapartshouse.com for an aftermarket engine gasket kit. My trike has some sort of silicone used as a valve cover gasket and it does not leak. If it ever begins to leak, I'm going for an aftermarket gasket kit.

[86125m]

There is no gasket because you are supposed to use a product called hondabond or 3 bond. You will have to purchase some either off the internet or the honda dealer or local motorcycle shop should have some.

[barnett468]

Yamabond is the original car sealer next to schellac and is every bit as good as Honda bond if notv bettrr and is probably. easier to find
Most Yamaha dealers as well as probably amazon sell it.

[barnett468]

Case sealer . . I have no edit button because I am special

[BigRedGrizzly]

Put like a 1/8" bead down? May be a little less?

[thehorse13]

It will compress and spread out when you start torquing down the valve cover. You don't want excess getting into the motor and blocking an oil channel, or worse. I have always made a bead that is 1/4 the width of the mating surface. Never had any issues because you don't need a ton of it to make a proper seal.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks Horse. Sounds good.

[barnett468]

I put a paper thin coat on both surfaces . . in fact they should seal without sealer in a perfect world but of course they won't . . you might use some extra in the corner if it goes around a round rubber seal etc

[BigRedGrizzly]

Hi all... I just heard back from WebCam. They said the cam that was in there is a really old White Brothers from like 25 years ago. She knows this because it didn't have a date on it and they started dating them a long time ago. She also said it was a monster cam. Built for top end.. Flat track racing. That explains the really weak bottom end. She was shocked to hear it was running a stock piston. She also said the journal was pretty much not worth being repaired. I had to pay a core charge but the lady was kind enough to give me a break on the rocker arms hard welding and the cam. She recommended the second stage cam which will bring that low end power pack. Good people over there at Webcamshafts.com.

[barnett468]

Xlnt, that is the set up I suggested which I think yeagerb said he has . . if you advance the timing as I suggested and you still want a little more bottom end power, you could try a 3 tooth bigger rear sprocket . . a one too the smaller from is a bigger change but it is easier to do.

You will benefit from a carb that is bigger than stock also . . I would go up by 2 to 3 mm as I mentioned earlier plus a carb with an accelerator pump will work well.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Tonight I learned how to change the oil seals, dust seals, and atf fluid in the forks for my 250SX. If you remember the forks on it when I got it where a bit fugazi. Looks like a 200x fork or something was on there.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/09/4e4041dc3142e2c3b4fcdc804ef62e5d.jpg
I scored a set off e-bay but they looked like hell. The procedure wasn't to bad at all. I got a little turned around during reassembly but got it squared away pretty quickly by referring to the service manual. Here's a pic. I'll be doing the other one tomorrow.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/09/3ca196e1991e2355b222b852c4bdff44.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

Well... I started changing the oil and replacing the oil seal on the proper fork that came on the 250SX. When I took the boot of I noticed it was bent pretty good.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/10/57ae26d9b40282161568cee8036a5f2e.jpg
So I went back to the set I ordered of eBay and used the left side also. The inside was nasty. I cleaned the heck out them and replaced the seals and added new fluid. They feel pretty good now. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/10/951ca72020396f4be1d6b3e888dd84b7.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/10/3ef02f8dc9dbe4b04624a418378301ab.jpg
A lot of parts came in today so I'll be busy tomorrow. I have all the engine parts in and ready for the 200X. Just waiting on the cam, rocker arms, and cylinder.

[thehorse13]

Given that the 250sx had the wrong fork on one side and a bent one on the other, someone must have wrecked pretty hard on that trike at some point. I would look over the frame for any damage that might be hiding.

Nice work, btw. I can't wait to see the 200x completed.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Yeah... Something is still f'd up in the front end. I think the left side of the triple is bent. I feel like it is pushing the left fork forward causing the bike to track slightly to the right. Not sure if you can tell but the front tire is slightly turned to the right. This is with handlebars straight. They are brand new so they can't be bent. Any idea on how to measure how far out of alignment they are?
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/11/f07d9bda94ffdaf16ad1b1e796d88aa2.jpg
Also, I think I need a new starter. Brand new battery and it won't turn the engine over all the way. Any recommendations? I see a bunch on eBay.
Thanks.
https://vimeo.com/133226172

[BigRedGrizzly]

I just measured the alignment using a plumb bob. Looks like the left fork is about 7/8" more forward than the right. I happen to have a spare triple. I just wonder if I need to replace the whole deal or just the top portion.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/11/1b75a88a8e9719d2fe0d8588cbdf01c0.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/11/2f0f72c45ba8bdc28afc7f422ea13405.jpg

[barnett468]

OK its easy to line up the tire and bars . . loosen the fork bolts slightly then place the side of the tire against the garage door frame and twist the bars until they are straight with the tire . . you will need to test ride it a few feet to determine the . . when it goes straight with the bars straight they are lined up. . simply retighten the bolts.


It looks like the forks are not quite 90 degrees to the rear axle . . if this is the case. then the steering head, swingarm and/or rear axle are bent slightly

[barnett468]

It is not your tripple clamps

[barnett468]

Sounds like your battery is nearly dead . . try one you know is good or remove the cables from it and use jumper cables from your car to the cable ends . . get a $5.00 battery acid tester and check each cell even if it shows 12 volts.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Barnett... When you say fork bolts, should I loosen all four sections and then begin the alignment process?
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/11/ae2453a48c4112d68370d7b493210ee5.jpg
The battery is reading 12.81 volts on my multi meter. Any idea how to test the starter with a multimeter?

[BigRedGrizzly]

Barnett... You are the man! Saved me a ton of concern, time, and probably a lot of unnecessary work. I don't usually work on my ATCs dressed like this but we just came back from a party and I couldn't wait to start fixing the front end.
It is all good now. Straight as an arrow now. I rode it to my sisters house on the street and its tracking beautifully. I loosened all the bolts on the triple and the four 10mm nuts on the axle. That did the job. Thank you Barnett.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/11/e5b6cd6a53e71395a5d806c205d69f45.jpg

[barnett468]

Lol . . most xlnt . . loosening the axle bolts did nothing though which is why i did not mention those . . you can align the forks on a pre 1980s motorcycle after a crash by squeezing the front wheel between your legs and moving the bars but a tree or garage door frame works better.

By the way...nice shorts.

[KevinJ97]

Very nice work going on indeed fr your 200x. As for the 250sx as well, My dad owns an 86. And to say the damage that occured on your bike like the broken head light broken rear plstics bent fork and odd replacement fork and dent to gas tank was likely a rollover or few. I would give the frame a check. Gas tank on my dads' bike (got flipped by someone and the bars snapped and pressed the tank. Idk what the story is on yours but i would still take those precautionary measure and overlook it. Funny the dents are on the same side i believe. Lol. Good luck and good job sir.:)

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks guys. I do plan to take the 250SX down to the frame at some point and give it a good overhaul. This bike has definitely had a couple rough rides. It was banged up more than I suspected when I purchased it but it's getting there.

[thehorse13]

I see that I got here late but Barnett kept you in good hands. He gave you the proper advise on aligning the front end. If it's tracking straight right now, I would say that your frame and swing arm are in fine shape. As usual, nice work.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Took the carb out of the SX because I noticed an odd plug where the start up jet is supposed to be.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/12/f764560a0e334d5b21c565f006ce5201.jpg
No surprise here, but it's a mess in here. Looks like someone tried to drill it out.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/12/17907e9e82f81b1a0cce53baeba507b0.jpg
I'm not sure what to do. Leave it, try to get it out, or get a new carb.

[BigRedGrizzly]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/12/91f7f2c7506dfba24f2cea1f3a616617.jpg
Well... I guess now it's an easy decision. New carb. Ugh.. Damn....more expenses! Killin me!

Can anyone recommend a carb? I see some on eBay that say some mods are required. Anyone know what type of mods are required? Is it better to try to find a used carb?

[yaegerb]

Send flyingw (Jim) a PM about rebuilding that carb. He's the most knowledgable I have ever seen on that model of carb and 350x. He blasts rebuilds and modify's for better than new. You won't go wrong.

Edit: my bad, I see the housings cracked....damn. Still, contact him, maybe he has a couple bodies lying around.

[Jmoozy27]

Daryl I have this housing with a few good parts I can send it to you if you can use it. Just handle the shipping. Email me if your interested.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=218335&stc=1http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=218336&stc=1http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=218338&stc=1

[barnett468]

.
OK, bummer

. how did the bike run with that carb?

Did it have a hesitation right off idle?

Although flyingw rebuilds those and does a very nice job, he states that some of them have a flat spot and some don't but he has not tried all the jetting options to try and eliminate the problem on the ones th as t do so if he does have a spare carb, it may or may not have a flat spot in it so it is a bit of a gamble but he is an honest guy and will simply tell you what he knows about the ones he has if you ask him.

This being said, I did post some potential replacements on his carb rebuilding thread so if you go to the sites search engine and type in his name it should pull up his thread . . go to the last 3 pages and you will we the carbs I suggested and his comments.

Unfortunately I can't copy and paste the info for a few more days because I am currently temporarily using a tablet which I hate and really have no idea how to use and it seems to like to type its own words lol
.

[thehorse13]

If this were my call, I would just find a proper OEM replacement. Poor 250sx. It had a hard life...

[BigRedGrizzly]

Yeah. That's what I'm hoping to do. I'm going to swap out the parts with the housing Jmoozy offered. Looks like flyingw does some nice rebuilds.

[BigRedGrizzly]

.
OK, bummer

. how did the bike run with that carb?

Did it have a hesitation right off idle?

Although flyingw rebuilds those and does a very nice job, he states that some of them have a flat spot and some don't but he has not tried all the jetting options to try and eliminate the problem on the ones th as t do so if he does have a spare carb, it may or may not have a flat spot in it so it is a bit of a gamble but he is an honest guy and will simply tell you what he knows about the ones he has if you ask him.

This being said, I did post some potential replacements on his carb rebuilding thread so if you go to the sites search engine and type in his name it should pull up his thread . . go to the last 3 pages and you will we the carbs I suggested and his comments.

Unfortunately I can't copy and paste the info for a few more days because I am currently temporarily using a tablet which I hate and really have no idea how to use and it seems to like to type its own words lol
.

The bike ran really well with that carb. Started pretty easily and pulled smoothly through all the gears. Flyingw has set me up with a rebuilt carb.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Last night I applied the Caswell tank sealer to the 200X tank. It was pretty easy and not to messy. I used some play dough to plug the petcock hole. After about 10 minutes of rotating I drained excess from the gas cap area. Not as much came out as I expected. I pulled the play dough out and more came out the petcock hole. I cleaned the hole with a tooth pick and rested it try. Turned out great. Here are some pics.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/15/473ce46f11419c4490c9f7b9c0966c19.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/15/2ad6e7b1bc306f6b8207cca80891c08a.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/15/89756e34d70d23c8c80a4d0595e12864.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/15/5ea9a3be335f72e5c322f1823081bb4b.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

Tonight I got in the starter and the much needed, much anticipated, and amazingly new looking and functioning carb from FlyingW.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/15/f2e7cd7c1e54930b050a8a01f8a07b1d.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/15/260d3f963c428cbe844de2cb6d3d7144.jpg
Does anyone know of anybody who rebuilds these starters? I'd be willing to ship to them for a rebuild core.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/15/ecf29a072cbb752b88cbe822f3261e6d.jpg
This here is a little video of my shop/garage and its contents.
https://vimeo.com/133621469

[yaegerb]

Let us know how she runs with the carb.

[barnett468]

.
i hope you removed the rust before you sealed it . . soaking it in oxalic acid for 24 hours would have removed every single bit of rust in it . . after this you could coat it and you would never have a problem again . . even though some of these products like por 15 claim they adhere to rust they really dont . . i have literally pulled sheets of por 15 of of many classic cars during repairs and restorations.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Yeah... I soaked it in the WD 40 rust remover for 24 hours. It came pretty clean but the rust did come back as you had stated. The Caswell product information said it would adhere to bits of rust and completely seal them off. I'll have to see how this goes.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Cam and rocker arms for the 200X come in Thursday. I'll be getting the cylinder and piston kit installed this week.

[knappyfeet]

Wait a minute.....your wife let's you put a gas tank on the table? Now I believe in unicorns.

[BigRedGrizzly]

That gas tank was pretty clean. It was sealed so there was no odor of fumes. Rare though... I know.

So, I got back from vacation today. We spent a week in Michigan on a lake. Near Lake Michigan. We saw some awesome dunes out there where people were riding. I wish I brought something to partake. We will definitely have to get out there again with some machines.
I came home to find the cylinder and piston waiting for me. I unpacked the truck from our trip and immediately opened the box and went to work. Everything went smooth. Rocker arms and cam will be in Thursday. Then I can get this thing buttoned up.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/d2c2b543ac73f3545b92564c0d22b289.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/4a172fd4eec14bb8b726faec51e634d9.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/792775f1506a342ed651e7fd239146d2.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/603862e9a9f78814b49f03ff29826b7d.jpg
I installed the new cam chain last week.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/75638d6bb193ef044f0bf4b9744e111b.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/d8d74225e75f9825fc67fac2e0519058.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/50ef71b7b84f1362f899922bd40542dd.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/fda62eee23850b8cb722d1cb671c9800.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

Got the top end pretty much all put back together. Just have to get the pulsator back on and adj. the timing.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/01/e49dea1bac79b32e770f43b08629d8c7.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/01/1181be8d4a383ce4a9c213545e83f85b.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/01/b51009f2f11521466a6c712dc8e9fe2f.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/01/226cd330b7d9659ed102ff2a8c7dd954.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/01/81c92fa7a5501e7c0de8fc7ca7b8c846.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/01/3e35482465adfe9bfe147d7a72a50280.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/01/5707e19e5074b00ceb9655bfb34f6eb1.jpg

[Jmoozy27]

That's some fresh looking parts parts right there. Almost time for a ride report....:beer

[barnett468]

.
Nice.....

[BigRedGrizzly]

Alright.... Got the cam in and timing sprocket and chain in. Would you believe the sprocket lined up correctly first shot. I couldn't. I had to check it like 4 times. I got the pulser on and set up without problems. The dowel pin in the cam is present now. I painted the motor and mounted it in frame.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/d6d0121cea93fb94f69801323f6a744d.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/c43d3b5a9fad42ade01ff956a7d33fa5.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/887b051deea4ff3fe7c54727f1dfcdfa.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/0720f6c247832116478dffbe88e9f893.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/7cd1b45fac0a20021131a962f0cca22d.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/7239e71c7dc1d98e285a12bd94f2adf8.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/e78dc2e958fb88ef25c32a86f5371d48.jpg

[barnett468]

.

i see you went with the classic black primer look.

i'm guessing you're going to paint the mounting brackets and clean up the bolts now that your frame looks so nice?

[BigRedGrizzly]

Good eye.. Yeah. I missed those on the initial frame painting.

[barnett468]

.

Good eye.. Yeah. I missed those on the initial frame painting.

oh, its easy to miss things like that when there are so many parts . . i restore vintage muscle cars and once they are painted, all the parts that night have looked decent with the old paint, look like horrible against the new paint, lol.

its still easy to take them off if you want . . you can probably strip them easily with a wire wheel.

if you wanted to do a quickie on some of the nuts and bolts, you can wire wheel them then just spray them with paint.

i use either of the following on quickie jobs . . krylon 1401 bright silver is in the middle and closely resembles cad plating . . krylon 1403 dull aluminum is non metallic and more dull looking . . if you want to protect the silver paint, you can spray them with verathane matte finish lacquer.


...........................http://www.skypirate.net/rocketry/images/2003/030509_06t.jpg


..............http://www.skypirate.net/rocketry/images/2003/030509_03.jpg


.................................................. .........krylon 1403 dull aluminum.

..........................................http://www.jefflilly.com/fabrication/silver-paints/fabrication-silver-paints17.jpg

[YTZ drew]

Looking good! Here's a quick tip for you to get rid of the half-stripped slotted crank and timing access plugs. The plugs from the TRX300EX fit, but accept an allen wrench for less drama at tune-up time. I just put a set on my 200x.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ahhh.....great tip. I couldn't even get it out. I guess I can be more aggressive now knowing there is a replacement.

[YTZ drew]

I have had to use a hammer and chisel on some. They all will come out, but they sometimes get mangled in the process.

[BigRedGrizzly]

https://vimeo.com/135628624
This video is of me riding the 200X after the rebuild. I still have some work to do but this thing runs great. Nice to have the torque back from the cam.

[danbur55]

Use your brain bucket please!!! We have all done without it but ----

[Chick3nBig]

I thought we couldn't post anything showing and I quote not wearing "Brain Bucket" lol!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BigRedGrizzly]

Sorry. I guess I missed that rule. I'll make another video of me wearing a helmet.

[barnett468]

.
lol, xlnt . . and there is no excessive top end noise.

what gear was that in because it seems as though it might be geared just a hair too tall but hard to tell for sure just from that?

[barnett468]

.
also, the carb does not appear to have the much dreaded flat spot.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Everything good so far. Definitely as torquey as the 200s if not more. Much easier adj. the valves on the bench. I love it. It rips. Is it necessary to change the oil relatively soon after one does a top end rebuild. After break-in.

[barnett468]

.

Everything good so far. Definitely as torquey as the 200s if not more. Much easier adj. the valves on the bench. I love it. It rips. Is it necessary to change the oil relatively soon after one does a top end rebuild. After break-in.

i would, plus you can run a magnetic drain plug.

exactly what oil is in it now?
.

[BigRedGrizzly]

New valvoline ATV 10w40

[Jmoozy27]

Make sure that the motor is warmed to operating temp then You want to cycle the engine under a load for 20 min and park it and let it cool completely. Do the same thing except let it go a 30-45 min. Don't lug the engine in a higher gear and allow braking by down shifting opposed to using the brakes. Keep the machine moving so it does not overheat. Try not to stay at one rpm for too long. Let the motor us low mid and some higher range rpm. Don't baby the motor but don't dog it either. Drain the oil after the first hour of break in while warm and check your plug for proper jetting. It's better rich than lean. Do not rev wot for the first 3-5 hours for longer than a few seconds.

[Jmoozy27]

New valvoline ATV 10w40

That should be fine, it's what I used for my super x.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Great. Thanks J.
I have been doing some work on the 250SX gas tank. Nasty dent in the tank.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/17/7cbda2d9855061790a9279b675342d33.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/17/cfe33827536bb6220bfdfedcdcd9915d.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/17/e21226dc417686d2261c4fa76c973b94.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/17/ce8c6f3895021c6118793fa37f6d6fbe.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/17/9880e71ffbf7e3439eba29dcb7928326.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/17/4ff38d970f75b58fe16abc0d6296809d.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/17/814a3fbe849fa6772990c0108064c875.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/17/ed8cbf8adbaa3cab2c777a22666038a6.jpg
I hope to get it finished tonight. I'm using self etching primer and sunrise red, then some laquer to try to keep it nice.

[thehorse13]

Please tell me that you banged out that dent and didn't pack it full of body filler...

[BigRedGrizzly]

Haha... I did the best I could with what I had... But there's a lot of filler in there.

[barnett468]

.
its a little late now but you could have had a lot of that dent pulled out at a body shop for maybe $30.00 . . bondo often cracks when it is that thick . . also, the surface should have been roughed up heavily with a grinder or 40 grit sand paper on an air sander so the bondo had something to stick to . . i have seen bondo fall off before . . basically, i would be hesitant to spend a lot for a paint job on it but the finished bondo does look good for a first time job.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Yeah.. Thanks. It may fall off. If it does I'll do it again the right way. At some point I plant to give it a hefty overhaul like MotoViking is doing.

[knappyfeet]

I think the filler will be fine........ and not come off.

I agree with Barnett though. Although I've never paid $30 for work.....I have paid a couple hundred dollars but that is a good way to go. I get a tank I feel I can't do to a body shop for them to have it "primer ready". They fix the corners....the little things I can't readily see. Or just get a straight used one off ebay.

It's looking good though.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks... It's not a show bike I just wanted that hideous dent to go away. I tried everything I could imagine to get that dent out. I tried inside by using a long blunt rod but the angle was hard to get at. I also tried the hot glue gun technique with poor results. Seriously... How the heck does a body shop get in there to knock that out?

[barnett468]

Seriously... How the heck does a body shop get in there to knock that out?

here ya go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEyE8PibVDs

the other method is to heat the metal with a torch then cool it with ice water but only a master body guy can do this . . they can remove that dent then file it flat so you dont even need bondo.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ahhhh..... Very cool... Thanks for the vid. [emoji106]

[Jmoozy27]

How did the x break in. I'm sure you have put quite a few hours on it by now...

[thehorse13]

Tack weld some pins on the tank then use a slide hammer to pull out the dents. Once you're done you just hit the tack welds with a grinder. If you do this correctly, you can get away with a skim coat of filler. Sometimes you can get away with no filler at all.

[BigRedGrizzly]

I have to get a welder. So much of what I want to do requires one. I never took the leap and made the investment. Any suggestions on what type and what power. I guess I'd be looking for one powerful enough to make repairs on ATVs and motorcycles and for fabbing simple projects.

J... The X is running very well. Starts easily and rips. The wheelie machine I was expecting IS back. Let me take this opportunity to THANK YOU ALL for the tips, guidance, and support through this project. I learned a lot of valuable information from you all. Most of all, your confidence in me has boosted my confidence in my mechanical skills. It's been a great experience. I owe you all at least a couple [emoji481]'s. I plan to go to Trikefest next year so may be I'll be able to meet some of you and share some stories in person. Sounds like you all have a great time there at Trikefest.

[barnett468]

.

Ahhhh..... Very cool... Thanks for the vid. [emoji106]

no prob . . yeah, it is very cool huh?

[knappyfeet]

I hope to get it finished tonight. I'm using self etching primer and sunrise red, then some laquer to try to keep it nice.

Hey BigRed....I just have a question.

I want to paint my headlight housing on my BR and wonder when you say sunrise red....which type of paint is that. I just wanted a spray can of paint that somewhat resembles the color cause its a little faded. Thank you.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Hey there.. Rustoleum makes the sunrise red. Krylon makes Banner Red. Both are very close to the original color.. In my opinion.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/3d924a684b7cfc2873baace8cc29b613.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/3865a1364eedf970a7efc50b8f54a984.jpg

[knappyfeet]

Hey there.. Rustoleum makes the sunrise red. Krylon makes Banner Red. Both are very close to the original color.. In my opinion.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/3d924a684b7cfc2873baace8cc29b613.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/3865a1364eedf970a7efc50b8f54a984.jpg

On my way to the store.......Your opinion is good enough for me. Thanks Grizzly

[BigRedGrizzly]

I finished up the tank for the 250SX last night. Much more appealing to the eye...
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/7ab3c6222a687d745eaf8f6970e11e58.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/e757e1b234776d636a094b35c58b2c2b.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/3f10ee501f348dd384b0c4dcb3985a02.jpg

[knappyfeet]

The red looks nice and the decals make the tank. But the photo shows what looks like the paint lifting on the top. Is it lifting or is it just the way the pic was taken.

[BigRedGrizzly]

The laquer I put on f'd up. I don't know why. It is coarse. I'll take a better pic later on.

[knappyfeet]

It still looks nice and you can fix it.

2 things come to mind.....one is that maybe the clear was not compatible with the red paint or two.......the window for re coat was passed and that caused the lifting. I can't count the times that has happened to me with krylon paints especially.

Maybe one day you can look into learning how to paint with professional automotive paints. It's a skill I learned long ago and it has served me well because proper finishes are the most expensive part of any project.

[BigRedGrizzly]

I do plan to. I have compressor now and I'll just have to invest in the gun I guess. When I put the fenders on I scratched the tank. Something was up with the paint. It had been drying for a few days and it felt dry but the paint was soft. It's been really, really, humid all week when I did all the painting. I wonder if that caused problems. I'm sure it could have. I'll do it again one day. Most importantly to the giant crater is gone and it looks pretty good from a few feet away.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Here are some pics.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/0388e71a710c900a89f3e7a2312de730.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/f411f739fd348562b6bdfb8bd90e6e65.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/33b4702fa3535b43e9e52d9f2d5dc329.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/11ea7d5cb20fab50474388fe437f636a.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/3bf6db308bd0604ca26e56a8a44fbf72.jpg
Close ups off the tank. The weird part is it wasn't consistently textured.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/48b4a4132f643a5bbd0b8d58ce29fc9c.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/5833e15b7ed0bb8401f60675a9b332e5.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/d16e05939bfb8d68b1a8e489f92bb845.jpg

[barnett468]

.
it wrinkled because it was not compatible with whatever is underneath like the base was enamel.

what promer was it, lacquer, epoxy or enamel?

[BigRedGrizzly]

The paint was fine. It seemed as though it was the laquer that had the issue.
I painted over self etching primer.

[barnett468]

The paint was fine. It seemed as though it was the laquer that had the issue.
I painted over self etching primer.

what paint and what lacquer are you ralking about?

did you spray red paint on it and then lacquer on top of that?

if so, what lacquer did you use?

how soon after the read did you spray it?

.

[BigRedGrizzly]

. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/16ccf73af03f535bbc4b8529b04c79e0.jpg
In that order. I let the primer dry 24 hrs. The red enamel paint dried for 48. As soon as I started spraying the laquer on it almost looked like itsy bitsy bubbles formed in little pockets. Interestingly enough it really only occurred on the top of the tank. Ironically, the underside of the tank looks beautiful. I sprayed self etching primer there also. Weird trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro.. Looks great were the bondo is too. Smooth.

[barnett468]

.
the rustoleum paints dont like lacquer over them . . below is exactly what i have used before . . unless they have changed the formulaes, it will work fine


............................................ sandable primer

..............................http://sherwin.scene7.com/is/image/sw/paint_template-1?layer=comp&wid=250&fmt=jpeg&qlt=100,0&op_sharpen=0&resMode=sharp2&op_usm=0.0,0.0,0,0&iccEmbed=0&printRes=150&_tparam_layer_1_src=sw/professionalprimer

............................................... cherry red

..........................................http://ep.yimg.com/ay/stylespilotshop/krylon-52101-cherry-red-indoor-outdoor-enamel-spray-paint-45-16-oz-aerosol-spray-can-8.jpg


............................................. or banner red

http://images.michaels.com/cms/michaelssa/www/Sites-MichaelsUS-Site/large/Node:IOGLO000030000900001000040000H0001M0001L0000E 000020000J0001Y0000200LXY.ViewAsset


and clear lacquer from verathane, deft or Valspar . . verify in the contents that it is lacquer if it doesn’t say so on the front.

....http://static.hardwarestore.com/media/product/628874_front500.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

Good info.. Thanks, Barnett. Hopefully the next time I paint something I have a professional spray gun.

[knappyfeet]

The 250 looks nice......and you did it timely. Maybe you could come down to San Diego and help me with my wife's Big Red (that she really dosent like) and help me finish it so I can start my own 200x.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Knappy... I am always looking for a reason to get to San Diego... Thanks for the compliment.

[honda atc guy]

Knappy... I am always looking for a reason to get to San Diego... Thanks for the compliment.

And in a few more weeks you could take in a Chargers game too.:beer

[Red Rider]

Looking good! Here's a quick tip for you to get rid of the half-stripped slotted crank and timing access plugs. The plugs from the TRX300EX fit, but accept an allen wrench for less drama at tune-up time. I just put a set on my 200x.If you decide to go this route, here are some: http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/175779-Engine-Plugs

[joels]

Sounds like you were not going to swap in the 200s engine into the 200x frame, but if you do, i believe the rear brake pedal wont work.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks for the tips guys... My 250SX is starting to spit and sputter at higher RPMs. Could it be a too rich or too lean setting? Runs great until high RPMs.
See the video. Appreciate any suggestions.
https://vimeo.com/138347557

[fieldy]

Are you using a lightly oiled stock air filter? Have you done the Barnett fuel level test? What's the plug looking like? Dry, black, wet, brown, white? Might need to Jump up about 5 sizes on the main, if it doesn't bog down, runs good, ride it around for a while and do a wot shutdown (if the motor is broke in) and begin your jetting chores. That's what I'd do.....

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks Fieldy.. I think I have some further diagnostic to do before I move forward. Most recently I have run with the fuel cap off and air box kid off. No change so far. I'll do the Barnett fuel test and check the plug tomorrow some time.
Here's vid of it running without air box lid and gas cap.
https://vimeo.com/138354201

[fieldy]

Maybe somehow the carb/main got some dirt back in it. Seems fuel related, sounds fuel starved above 3/4 throttle. Anyone else?

[BigRedGrizzly]

Yeah Fieldy... That's what I'm thinking also. It just dawned on me.. I had some rust in the tank and I'm wondering if some got through and into the carb. I'm going to take it out and inspect this weekend. I got a hunch the high speed jet has a partial clog. It just makes rational sense. That's for walking me to the possibility.

[barnett468]

Yeah Fieldy... That's what I'm thinking also. It just dawned on me.. I had some rust in the tank and I'm wondering if some got through and into the carb. I'm going to take it out and inspect this weekend. I got a hunch the high speed jet has a partial clog. It just makes rational sense. That's for walking me to the possibility.

i use small clear plastic fuel filters between the tank and carb whenever there is room.

[Jmoozy27]

Does it stall when you ride it? The way you are running it doesn't actually put a real load on it like riding it does. Check your plug as that will tell all.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Hey Jay.... Never stalls even when riding or pulling a heavy load. I'll get a look at the plug and post some pics.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Just got the plug out. I don't it looks like it is too lean or too rich. What do you guys think.. I'm digging into get the carb now.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/06/fa93dc8484d862a2acaaaed92f3e4850.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/06/976cff3fa21bf7cd6a089cfbd7857fd5.jpg

[BigRedGrizzly]

I pulled the carb and cleaned the main jet. It looked fine when I took it out but cleaned it. I am having the same result. Would adjusting the valves help resolve this issue?

[fieldy]

That center looks shiney and rich at the moment. Might look different after the carb is clean and ridden a while, if it acts better after the cleaning.
My thinking on why it looks rich- an air passage has dirt in it making the main rich ( correct me by all means nessecery ).

Trying to remember if you had it running before, is it smoking at all?
I would start with a new plug when it is time to jet or get a good read.

[Jmoozy27]

It seems fine to me running it with a load on it and fresh plug is the only way to do a true plug chop. What size main is in there?

[BigRedGrizzly]

I believe it is stock. This is a
FlyingW carb fresh rebuild. I believe he tunes them before sending them out. I believe the carb to be fine. Everything looks fine. That's why I'm going to adj. the valves. Not sure if it will do anything but I don't know if it has been at all ever since its original purchase. I'll be able to tell in a few minutes if they are a bit off.

[fieldy]

Even with a rebuilt carb you still could have plugged an air passage. Then still you may very well have to go bigger main Keep us posted!

[knappyfeet]

I pulled the carb and cleaned the main jet. It looked fine when I took it out but cleaned it. I am having the same result. Would adjusting the valves help resolve this issue?

Maybe it's me but.......it sounds electrical. It almost sounds like your hitting the Rev limiter.....which I know your probably not but it seems to demonstrate that characteristic. Now that you've installed a new carb and have made sure there is no restriction to the flow of fuel then that's electrical. If you have the manual I would ohm out the coil. You might need to make sure the cdi is working properly and the wire from the coil to the plug has no cracks or is not allowing flow of current to the plug. The valves floating dosent manifest itself in that "on/off" condition your atc is demonstrating........that's probably electrical.

I wouldn't necessarily assume it's a rich problem by the plug.....especially if your not doing complete burns like your video is demonstrating. But for sure....make sure it's not a fuel problem before you start the fun electrical diagnosis process.

Forgot to ask......how does it run overal? Does it pull, idle, and overall ride o.k. in general when your not really on it?

[BigRedGrizzly]

Thanks, Knappy for the electrical heads up. I believe you are steering me in the correct direction. I just ohmed the spark coil. Readings are within spec. Next I moved down towards the CDI and gave a good look at the Exciter Coil wire. Problem. Here's what I found.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/06/0b55f2ece89da070f9e47569227739b2.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/06/5e5b5714d0f6124cc81c12f2b3779293.jpg
I don't know is this is THE problem but I suppose it could be. Would it make sense that this would cause the problems at higher RPMs? I'm going to continue digging. This poor 250SX. I think it was beaten and abused.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ok I think I'm checking this wire correctly... I'm used the black terminal on the battery as a ground and this is the reading I got. I doesn't seem to match up with service manual.
It's hard to see but it's reading 7.52.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/06/4a92b8be946a5408d39d26f47c56a084.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/06/d23967da4dcbbd06773fe39c2e25ba63.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/06/b318a6e81a385a388b55e52c2a0bcc73.jpg
I'm thinking I can cut that section out and replace it. I have some spare 16 gauge wire I can replace it with. I am not very experienced in electrical work but I can strip and crimp terminals.
Whatta you guys think? Could it be the problem?

[barnett468]

.

Is there black smoke coming out the exhaust pipe when you hold it open?

your plug shows it is getting WAY too much gas.

Try a different plug, it might be fouling/misfiring from the excessive carbon on it..

Simply put the bike in the shade and lay the plug on the cylinder head with the coil wire connected then kick it over . . if the spark is pale blue, you are fine.

It ran fine but has rust in the tank with no filter . . Might be debris in the needle and seat not allowing the gas to shut off which would cause it to flood.


The plug on the right is shiny which means it is wet which means its oily . . It is possibly rich too but its hard to tell because of black deposits from the oil . . This engine should be repaired . . The middle plug is perfect . . The left plug is lean.

................These photos will show what John was explaining.

..............http://i.imgur.com/eCSbd.jpg

...............http://www.4secondsflat.com/Plug-2.jpg


This plug is bone dry so the black means it is rich . . If both the threads and the porcelain is black, i would start by reducing the main jet size first . . In the case of a plug that has extremely heavy deposits like this, I would go down 3 sizes on the main because just one will not be nearly enough and two will likely no be enough . . Four would be too much.

http://www.dansmc.com/spcarbon.jpg



Check the float level . . If it is excessively high, it can cause a rich or flooding condition.

..................Here's an example of it a little too high . . It should be just below the solid black line in your case . . If it is at the dotted line, it will still not cause a problem even though it is just a little high . . If if is above the dotted line, I would definitely fix it by bending the small metal tab slightly that depresses the needle, slightly upward toward the top of the carb.

If the float is plastic, it requires heat to bend it, and this should only be done by someone whom is very experienced, otherwise you might end up with a puddle of melted plastic which will no longer fit very well.

.................................http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/motoforge/2010-08-01_013312_Float_level_adjustment.jpg


............................................. Here's another in which you can see the is level way too low.


........................................http://www.bbburma.net/FujiFotos/FloatHeight/DSCF2434.jpg[/QUOTE]

[knappyfeet]

I don't know if that's the problem but I would tighten that up and see what it does. Here's what I'm thinking......

My big red had a bad float valve and fuel was over flowing into the motor thus flooding it and not allowing it to idle. In order to keep it running I would rev it up and it ironed out things momentarily.......the exact opposite to what is going on in your case. So I would ask...... how does it run?......aside from its current open throttle problem. Does it idle ok? If it does its probably not a float or float needle problem. How does it run/ride when you are not on it? Does it seem to run ok? Does it pull ok? Is there black smoke present all the time or only when you rev it high and it does what it is doing? Remember a black plug can come from your ignition interruption.....if that's what it is.

One other thing.......this isn't absolute but........turn on fuel valve.....allow to run for a minute or 2 with valve on.......then keep it running and turn fuel valve off......wait 20 or 30 seconds then rev it up high like in the video. Does it do it at this point or not. If it still does it probably is electrical. If not then it might be carburation......check the jetting for the main jet only.

Also I think it's critical on how it runs with this problem. Once again does it idle, run and pull normal or close to normal when your not at high revs? If I remember I dot think coils, cdi, etc is all that costly from ebay.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ok guys.. I have some info. The plug I showed you pictures of earlier was the plug that came to me on the bike with the old carb. Since there is a new carb I put a new plug in and this is what it looks like. I think good.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/07/ad9287cf6819d5ea7a259068cae5e68e.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/07/0c46a1196235061db3b68adab342eff4.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/07/ce74e2c0b8ba1ed05e90265b2e6acb17.jpg
I also did the Barnett float level test. Looks good to me.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/07/454aa24bcbbe51f5ffe1c8cf43a093d3.jpg
I tidied up that partially exposed exciter coil wire.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/07/8ecf52dcd68466e1b592840ee9783e1a.jpg
I also ran the test Knappy suggested. I loaded up the carb by turning the fuel on. I then shut it off. Started the trike and let it idle for a bit. I got on the the gas and held it wide open. It eventually reached the high RPMs it couldn't get to before and sent out a strong blast of black smoke. Then promptly died because it was out of fuel. Interesting how it's able to reach those high RPMs when the fuel is cut off. Makes me want to think its rich.
https://vimeo.com/138548053

[yaegerb]

Your plug indicates a rich condition. What throttle position does the motor bog?

[BigRedGrizzly]

Hi Yaeger.... 3/4 to full. Here's another vid I just did. Definitely capable of hitting those high RPMs when there is less fuel in the bowl. I think I'm going to lean it out a bit and see what happens.
https://vimeo.com/138549031

[BigRedGrizzly]

I just leaned it out about 3/4 out and it began to bog again. I would say no change. I have returned the pilot screw to the original setting.

[barnett468]

I just leaned it out about 3/4 out and it began to bog again. I would say no change. I have returned the pilot screw to the original setting.


exactly what did you lean out 3/4?


1. i would use something on the bike as an indicator of the fuel level like the intake bolt in your photo or the front edge of the carburetor then recheck the fuel level with the gas on and put a felt pen mark on that part of the bike that coincides with the gas level.

2. if the level is the same, which it should be, lower it only 4 mm or 3/16" . . you do this by turning the carb upside down then face the side of the carb towards you then place the ruler so it is in the center of the float, not towards the rear or the front, then carefully measure from the carb gasket to the top of the float . . bend the metal tab that covers the needle just a hair then remeasure the float height . . you want to raise it [because it is upside down] 4 mm or 3/16".

if you have a plastic float it needs to be heated to do this but i wouldn't recommend that an inexperienced person because it is easy to turn it into a piece of scrap plastic.

3. if the float is plastic, i would go down 2 sizes on the main jet and try it.

if you have a brass float, i would install a main jet that is 1 or 2 steps leaner after adjusting the float.

4. clean the lug with a wire brush or plastic toothbrush and car cleaner BEFORE the next test.

[barnett468]

.
in your last video, are you holding the throttle wide open or are you revving it then letting off then revving it and letting off.

the odd thing is that it ran fine when you first ran it and you didnt change anything . of course it could have been rich at that time but im guessing that it did not have this problem at that time.

your current gas level is a little high but it does not look to me that it is quite high enough to cause this prob but i would still lower it as per my post above to totally eliminate it as a possible cause of the problem.


for a quick test, you can also remove the air box lid and try it again.
.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Hi Barnett.. I leaned the pilot screw. I turned it 3/4 out from all the way in. Lightly seated. Here's another vid. It seems rev out nicely in early throttle position then bogs. I'm pulling the carb out again. [emoji24]
https://vimeo.com/138553768

[yaegerb]

I am pretty sure your main is to fat from what I am hearing. But it could also be your needle. Have you tried taking your needle clip up 1 yet? It's the easiest option for a quick check.

Instead of revving it on idle take it out for spin and tell me what it's acting like under a load and at what throttle position it's acting up at.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ok. I was just ripping it around. 1/4 throttle everything is great. It will rip wheelies until the RPMs get up there then it bogs. It has strong power until then. I'm going to take the carb out for another thorough inspection.

[yaegerb]

I would do the clip first and eliminate the needle. If it gets worse after you raise the clip 1 then take it down 2 (1 more than original position). If none of that works the that pretty much eliminates the needle and you can focus on the main.

[BigRedGrizzly]

Ok cool thanks.. I'll be workin it