Let`s talk "Gunshow Loophole"

[ironchop]

I would like to poll people without this turning into an anti-gun thread or defending 2A.

Anyway, of course the Typical Congressional Agents of Non-action have repeatedly proposed to close "the Gunshow Loophole" lately. This "idea" isn't new at all as it has been argued since the mid 90s and the fact that numerous people have done enough soul-searching to have come up with the same lame assed idea as every other lame assed ide before that shows an astounding lack of creativity......After all these years of "mass shooting" (two people dead counts as a "mass shooting" now regardless of the context. A domestic murder suicide is now counted as a mass shooting. Hence how they are able to claim "several hundred mass shootings in the last five years". A gangland shootout at a local college bar involving sports scholarship thugs and street thugs are counted as "school mass shootings". I know this because Bowling Green has had a "mass shooting" due to these very circumstances according to the FBI`s figures.

Now having been a resident of three states throughout my life, I have had a chance to attend their local gunshows of all types and sizes including many travels out of state to visit gunshows. So, out of Indiana, Kentucky, Florida, Tennessee, Ohio, Alabama, I have YET to find tables full of guns for sale WITHOUT any background checks involved. Not to say it never happened as I can count on less than one hand since the "background check" (firearm registration) system was implemented how many times I have seen someone buy a gun as a "private sale" at a gun show.....the total is two....and in one of them I knew both guys and they knew each other.

I have attended better than 100 shows in my lifetime. Im going to Knob Creek and then National Gun Day show in Lville KY both tomorrow as a matter of fact and this will be my 17th or 18th KCR show. Twice in my life have I ever witnessed guns for sale at gun show tables where one could purchase WITHOUT a background check. This being since the early 90s for handguns and mid 90s for rifles/shotguns up until current. Private sales in the parking lot ARE NOT gun show sales and are therefore moot. If you private sell a firearm in the Walmart parking lot without a background check, it DOES NOT make it a "firearm sale using the Walmart Loophole" so this ignorant language from the anti-gun crowd is just more propaganda but without any creativity or reason to back it up.

So, how many other gunshow attendees are here and how many of you have seen where firearms were available INSIDE the show and what state did this occur?

The purpose of this poll is just for my personal need to know as much as anything else. I suspect that once again, the media here are telling people half-truths mixed with outright lies and so far everyone local I have asked stated pretty much the same thing. There are nowhere near as much of this going on as the media wants everyone to think.

SO let`s hear it from all the states where one can buy thousands of ghost guns, assault rifles, and full autos with "silencers" with nary a background check or question asked. If Good Morning Amerika says its happening then obviously, its true right? After all George Stephanopolous would never lie. It`s not like he was once a mouthpiece for the Klinton Admin and told lies DAILY like it was a survival mechanism....oh wait......yeah.

I must be going to the wrong gunshows.

Post up your experiences at gunshows......Thanks

[Matt85'350x]

I bought a 12 gauge side by side at a gun show in MI without any background check. Paid the guy and off I went; it was just a private deal. Was a pretty small gun show but definitely a gun show nonetheless.

[Dirtweed]

The Gun shows I have been to in NY have had background checks. Though now in NY you have to get a FFL transfer for any sale now, but I don't mind that.

[oldskool83]

I can't buy a fire arms....... I have a vintage 12ga my great grandpa used to hunt with. It was last show in late 1960's...even have the amo lol.

I have not tried to buy a new one...then I'd prob be denied.

I'm figuring my grandma will just give me her AR15....wtf does a 80yo woman need an AR15 for?!

I however have no desire to use or shoot them. Just not my thing.

[mendoAu]

.....there is an unlimited amount of national resources if one was to open up a BS cannery.....and Washington DC seems to have the market pretty well flooded.
After every gun shooting the bandwagon starts to roll but several people got to convey their feelings after the local college shooting here around Roseburg....how could the event have been different if just one of those students huddled at gun point on the floor had been armed. So much for the "GUN FREE ZONE" launched by, now guess, the polititions. On the face of "background checks" it sounds like a cure to some but I lean more towards my right to self defense and the ability to purchase whatever is needed for that purpose. Just in my opinion the best deterrent is a good offense, a show of protection. My question, if I had a question, would be "What would change if every gun show was closed/banned today and for the future?".

[Jmoozy27]

Never purchased a firearm w/o a background check in LA. Even at a gunshow.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

OK, so the only people generally allowed to have tables of firearms for sale at gunshows are licensed dealers as far as I am aware. It is against the law for any dealer to sell a firearm without the required NICS check, including at gunshows. I have never heard of a gunshow that allows John Q. Citizen to set up a table to sell his firearms.

That being said, at every gun show I have ever attended, all firearms purchases were in compliance with the law and NICS checks conducted.

Even before the UN-safe act here in NY, the policy was that any private transactions were not to take place on the property the gunshow was being held on. This policy was set by the owners of the property and those who managed the gunshow.

But now with the unsafe act, private sales must go through and FFL and NICS checks are conducted.

So no, I have never seen, heard of, or participated in an illegal firearm transfer at a gunshow... I myself would like to know what this "gunshow loophole" is.. Might be handy! LOL!

[El Camexican]

Anyone find it odd that there are never shootouts and mass murders at guns shows? With all the guns there you'd figure people would be dying by the thousands. Anyone with an IQ larger than their shoe size knows the problem is mental illness, not guns and the real issue is that the politicians who would be King (or Queen) want you disarmed before the bottom falls out of the system they have built.

Sucks that you guys have to keep fighting for your rights every year, but I'm glad that you do.

I didn't see on the news where your Prez has a stop planned to the South side of Chitown to console all the poor folks how have lost loved ones to gun violence there as of late. Wonder why that is?:wondering Please don't tell me that it's only a tragedy when white folks get shot!!!

222597

[Devilsclaw]

There is no "gunshow loophole". They are really talking about banning private sales. Depending on the state that may or may not be allowed at a "show". You also hear them talking about requiring background checks for "internet sales" which of course are already required if it crosses state lines but again what they are really talking about are two private citizens using online classifieds to work out a private deal. They know and we must keep in mind that once private transfers are gone--it's all over. Gun control isn't about crime--it's about the Lefts rabid hatred of ALL firearms.

[ironchop]

At our local gun show in Bowling Green, the ATF office always has a table there with pamphlets about what they do and so on. They take questions and such. Im not really intimidated by their presence but some folks I know are. I kinda like having the option of asking an actual agent a legal query if I want to know the Law four times a year at the convention center so for me this is a benefit rather than a hindrance. I have sold guns to upstanding family members but outside of that, I sell everything I don't want anymore back through my friend Russ' gun store. I want a paper trail right back to the dealer once it leaves my hands. I sleep well at night knowing I was safe than sorry. Politically, I think gun control is nonsense and is merely a means for incremental criminalization but I see using the current system as a way to protect myself and the public from my old hunting rifle or CCW pistol getting in the hands of some evil prick. I do not believe in gun control though.

I had a CCW for 12 yrs. I got tired of being treated like a criminal with a permit when the police pulled me over until I can prove otherwise. Having a permit to carry merely kept me out of jail for carrying but until everything got called in and confirmed, I was usually facedown with my hands restrained in front of my kids. I thought a permit indicated I was qualified and trustworthy enough to don a weapon for self defense.....concealed so that it doesn't intimidate the wrong people. I was wrong.

Personally, I'm sick of the moving goalposts and the increased legal hoops I have to leap through in order to prove what has already been proven over and over.

As far as I thought a lot of gun show promoters around here don't allow non-FFL dealers selling working firearms at tables from "private collections". I was a liability insurance requirement with lawyers chomping on the bit to Sue gun makers into ruin like they tried with big tobacco. Like big tobacco, the end result was rich lawyers, dying smokers, same amount of cancer, cigarettes are still sold everywhere. Its really about profiting from disease, decadence, self destruction and tragedy.

Funny thing is my CCW was good for four years. All I had to be was good to go when I applied for it and at renewal time. With it, I could walk into any gun store, pay cash, and walk right out. Nobody ever called it in to see if it had been revoked or if I had landed a felony in the meantime. Its the best hall pass and I've also used it in other states that honor Indiana CCW.

I was told by an officer that if you know the buyer cannot possess guns and you sell him a gun in a private sale anyway then you have violated federal law. Trying to capture the evidence of an illegal private sale you would need immediate registration to even have a starting point.

You're right about interstate firearm commerce being illegal without an FFL to facilitate.

I frequent the marketplaces of MFA.com, ARF.com, AKfiles.com, AK47.net, Falfiles, weaponeer, weapons guild, Cal guns, INGunowner, Gun broker, Armslist, Arms America, etc, etc. And other than an occasional sale to a fellow state resident where legal, called an "FTF" sale, pretty much everyone else requires a background check even with in state sales. Interstate is federal law to use an FFL.

one way around that is 922R compliant self-built guns which is legal as long as you meet certain requirements like not be a felon and correctly configure your build. Oddly, having serial numbers or a paper trail is not required UNLESS you ever transfer ownership to another person and profiting is NOT allowed.and that would make you a unlicensed manufacturer.

They are lots of "receiver flats" and parts kits of all types of guns available to legally build as long as its not violating NFA laws and that you can build
Without checks and serial numbers. The ATF "suggests" that you number it but they don't require it yet. They will give you a set of approved serials and the engraving guidelines if you would like a papered home built rifle just for asking.

There are hundreds of kinds of parts kits available for the home builder and the tools to complete these builds can be purchased as well.

http://armsofamerica.com/partskits-2.aspx

http://ak-builder.com/index.php?dispatch=categories.view&category_id=224

http://aresarmor.com/store/Category/hmgar15

http://stealtharms.net

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Receiver-Flat-HK-91-G3-PTR-CETME-p2320.htm

There's a hundred plus videos on YouTube on how to build all these weapons.... completely legal. You would think this would be off the radar for most and you would be right but this build phenomenon is at least a twenty years old and has produced lord knows how many legal home builds (as long as you are allowed to possess s gun in the first place and observe NFA law) (no sawed offs, full auto, or suppressed without buying the tax stamp)

Its confusing, really.











Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk

[Scootertrash]

It's been awhile since I've been to a gun show here, mainly because with the prices people want it really is a gun "show". That and I can buy all of the beef Jerky and cheap chinese tools I want at the local convenience store and Harbor Freight without paying an admission fee.

Last gun show I was at was about 6-7 years ago? I saw guys walking around with a gun slung over their shoulder and a sign hanging around their neck or off of the gun stating that they had XXX gun for sale. Never saw anyone with a price showing, never saw a sale go down, but apparently it is (or was) OK to do private sale at gun shows. That said, I never saw any gang banger/thug looking types (Other than a couple of bikers, no colors) shopping for guns. But we all know why that is, don't we. ;)

'chop: If by ARF.com you mean AR15.com, what's your user name over there? :naughty:




ETA: This is on my "Want to Build One" List:

222608

[ironchop]

No username just occasional lurker when I need tutorials and current market prices. That place is full of enough drama without my comments.On a side note, I was instructed at an Appleseed event @ Knob Creek by an ARF moderator. He went by UbridledLiberty some places but I'm not sure that was his AR15 handle. I told him at Appleseed he had my condolences for that job lol.

Scooter, me and you would get along just fine talking about our similar interests. When I went to KnobCreek shoot this weekend I got to handle some 1919 kits and parts ....drool....I got my fix of NFA stuff for six more months until the next one.

Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk

[Caminofeld]

I don't own any guns;) However, I've heard of some people (a few years ago in MD no less) obtaining fantastic Mosin Nagants with scopes that can hit a 12" group with hi-ball ammo @ 300 yards, 2 SKS's with bayonets, and a $50 single barrel 12 ga with nothing but cash and a smile.

I just heard today of a gun shop that was sued for $600,000 for weapons they sold being used in crimes. Although I am an ethical man and probably wouldn't make half the sales they did on general principle, the bottom line is that this ruling sets a terrifying precedent for the next chapter in gun control...gun shops being sued when sold weapons are used to commit crimes. That's like suing a bar when a patron leaves drunk and hurts somebody. VERY slippery slope.

Bottom line: buy now while you still can.

[Caminofeld]

Common sense gun control is making absolutely sure that LAW ABIDING citizens are ALWAYS capable of defending themselves against CRIMINALS who will always find a way to get guns; legal or not.

I would advocate for a federal concealed carry permit that covers all 50 States, requires a thorough background check and mental health screening, and also requires extensive TEACHING/TRAINING with a pass/fail proficiency exam. That should arm enough skilled citizens to make any dickhead think twice before committing armed crime; let alone a mass shooting.

[86T3]

I know some people who went to knob creek and bought quite a few guns with no background check. I've also been to a couple guns shows in Florida and as I understand it, if you pay cash they don't have to do a background check. I have a conceal carry permit in Florida so I could buy a walk out with a gun even if I didn't pay cash.

[strykerlover]

Today is Maine's fist day for legal concealed carry without a permit. I won't carry right now, but it sure is nice to know that I can! Every purchase I have made was through a FFL, and I don't mind that either.

[Billy Golightly]

I haven't been to very many (usually because there is no point in buying anything as the prices are $$$ and its more of an interesting museum type tour than anything) but generally the FFL dealers out number the individuals about 3-1. If you buy from a private owner and have a private sale transaction, you don't need to do a background check. They do need to ask if you're a Felon and the intelligent sellers ask for a copy of your DL# and log it incase you shoot up a neighborhood with the gun and the law finds their prints or DNA on it before you, but I don't think its a requirement. I'd concur that there isn't a loophole at all, its scare tactics terminology. The only way to eliminate the "loop hole" is to eliminate private face to face sales, which would be pretty retarded.

[Dirtweed]

The only way to eliminate the "loop hole" is to eliminate private face to face sales, which would be pretty retarded.

Which they have done in NY, private sale has to have a FFL transfer.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Dirtweed is dead on!

OK guys, lets be sure we are talking about what the regs are at the federal level as that is the level of our government that wants to further infringe on our right to keep and bear arms, at least when discussing this particular topic... And as pertaining to gun shows and the federal regs that apply, I don't see a loophole at all. Most states do not regulate FTF sales between private individuals the way NY and I'm sure a few others are now doing. Some states may allow FTF transaction between non-ffl holding individuals at gunshows.. My state does not.. But here is what I think and Billy touched on this in his post above, this evil gunshow "loophole" the tyrants keep throwing around is really code talk for going after FTF sales between individuals. Far far more FTF sales take place every day nowhere NEAR a gunshow than occur at gunshows by a great margin I would bet. And that will be their "logic" they cite when they come out and state that in order to close the gunshow loophole, they must restrict and regulate private sales between individuals...

Slippery slope indeed!! We've already slid halfway down or more!

[Ol Deuce]

Just not a problem in montana unless your dealing in full auto guns! My love of firearms , Winchester for sure ! My prize is a Model 1894 ...38-55 ....32'' Oct.Barrel. set triger 4 digit Ser.# with external rail screws !!!! Less than 50 made !!! To me this is what gun shows are about ! ya all the AR and stuff are there But not that I don't like them! I just really don't have a need ! the other stuff cost way more money LoL...............Ol Deuce

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I knew there was something about you Ol Deuce!!!

I'm into Winchesters a little bit myself... my collection is small still with only 2.. But I like them alot. First is a near mint M94 Big Bore chambered in 375 Winchester circa 1980. The 375 Winchester cartridge is basically a 38-55 magnum. Quite a bit of horsepower for a M94..which is a concept that appeals to me alot. The other is a M70 Super Grade I bought new last fall chambered in 338 Win Mag. I am currently lovesick over a very nice condition M54 in 30GOVT06 circa 1926 at my LGS right now. Only trouble is I just don't have the extra coin to buy it outright and would have to trade something to bring it home.. I have been chewing on whether or not to trade my S&W 460 magnum for it.... I have the desire to add a nice M54 to my safe, but particularly in 270 Win. The M54 was the very first rifle ever to chamber the 270 Win cartridge... And I'm sure you know that the M54 was Winchester's first venture into bolt action rifles and is the direct mother of the legendary M70. They were only made from 1925 to 1936. In 1936 the M70 was introduced.

Nothing near as old or unique as yours though! That's definitely a keeper! :beer

[Ol Deuce]

Guns ....Old guns seem to have a story to tell !!! when I look at my wall the stories from them all keeps my interest alive!!! when the 375 was introduced I got one but it didn't feel like my 1894 ! I sold it! than when the 444 came out man I bought 1,got home and out of the Box it was factory fired & sighted in!!I have a 220 yard range that did have 58 fall down targets !!! That round burned in steel at a 100 -150 & 210 yds in a 3'' circle !! I was a happy camper !!! but it was new and didn't feel right,so i sold it !!the 100 year old + Winchesters have a feel that I can't put into words ! When I took the the Long 38-55 to the Quigley Meet the shooters that saw it had to hold it, sight it, & it got me one shot over the top B shooter group !!!! It did well , 0ver
400 guys took part in the meet!!! Fun stuff!!

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Guns ....Old guns seem to have a story to tell !!! when I look at my wall the stories from them all keeps my interest alive!!! when the 375 was introduced I got one but it didn't feel like my 1894 ! I sold it! than when the 444 came out man I bought 1,got home and out of the Box it was factory fired & sighted in!!I have a 220 yard range that did have 58 fall down targets !!! That round burned in steel at a 100 -150 & 210 yds in a 3'' circle !! I was a happy camper !!! but it was new and didn't feel right,so i sold it !!the 100 year old + Winchesters have a feel that I can't put into words ! When I took the the Long 38-55 to the Quigley Meet the shooters that saw it had to hold it, sight it, & it got me one shot over the top B shooter group !!!! It did well , 0ver
400 guys took part in the meet!!! Fun stuff!!


I know what you mean about them having a story to tell, and if only they could talk... My brother in law has a Springfield Trap Door 45-70 that the serial number confirms was issued to Custer's regiment... The imagination runs wild wondering what that old rifle has seen in it's near 140 year history...

444 Marlin is a heck of a lever rifle cartridge, as is the 450 Marlin... Based on the information I see about them in loading tables (I'm a handloader and have a hunch you are too??) I'm kind of getting the bug for a lever rifle carbine with a 40-something bore... What REALLY has my fancy right along side that m54 I mentioned earlier is a new M92 Short Rifle in 44mag. Regardless of being made by Miroku in Japan, you will be hard pressed to find anyone who owns a new Miroku/Winchester lever rifle who has a bad word to say about them.

Cool back story to that old 1894 BTW! :)

[Ol Deuce]

I know what you mean about them having a story to tell, and if only they could talk... My brother in law has a Springfield Trap Door 45-70 that the serial number confirms was issued to Custer's regiment... The imagination runs wild wondering what that old rifle has seen in it's near 140 year history...

444 Marlin is a heck of a lever rifle cartridge, as is the 450 Marlin... Based on the information I see about them in loading tables (I'm a handloader and have a hunch you are too??) I'm kind of getting the bug for a lever rifle carbine with a 40-something bore... What REALLY has my fancy right along side that m54 I mentioned earlier is a new M92 Short Rifle in 44mag. Regardless of being made by Miroku in Japan, you will be hard pressed to find anyone who owns a new Miroku/Winchester lever rifle who has a bad word to say about them.

Cool back story to that old 1894 BTW! :)

Hahaha I have an Officers carbine trap door that is less than 50 miles from the battle feild ON my wall !!! small world also I load for 9 different calibers and love it! my guard gun is the 44mag !both the trapper & a 6 shot!!! I'm working on a winchester 44-58 ! in the 1894 ! the 44 case used is a 444brass cut to 2.065 or the same length as the 38-55 case !! should be a great silhouette round !haha thats my winter project !!!!

[ironchop]

I know some people who went to knob creek and bought quite a few guns with no background check. I've also been to a couple guns shows in Florida and as I understand it, if you pay cash they don't have to do a background check. I have a conceal carry permit in Florida so I could buy a walk out with a gun even if I didn't pay cash.
I noticed the same thing this time. There were two tables that had placards that said "private sales" and a few that said "private sale OK with KY identification".
There were far less people carrying around rifles with For Sale flags in the barrel this time around.

Another friend from Indiana noted that it (private sales at KCR) seemed to be more prevalent lately but this is speculation. I guess since there's so much NFA stuff there (which cannot be sold FTF legally by federal law) that I guess I didn't notice any private sales before. There aren't a whole lot of firearms at KCR for sale that aren't NFA items requiring the stamp anyway. The swap meet is mostly accessories and parts with an occasional semi auto handgun or rifle. I'm not counting muzzle loaders and AR uppers because they aren't restricted and having a year-round gun shop on the premises at Knob Creek kind of ensures enough competition for anyone wanting a firearm. The shop has way better prices than most dealers there anyway.

I agree that "gun show loophole" is creative language for "restricting ANY and ALL private sales" which is more about control and less about public safety. I can still get better hardware from old street connections than anything I can get from any store or gun show and this is precisely where criminals get their stuff too. I'm not falling for the nonsense that Mexican Cartels straw purchase semi auto AKs from Arizona gun stores @ $500-$800 each when they can get south African FULL AUTO AKs for $50 to $75 each USD(as quoted to me by some friends I have that import/export internationally in small arms/ parts).......who now is still dumb enough to buy this crap? Why would any cartel buy a semi auto AK from Eric Holder when they can get TEN with "full rock n roll" for the same price and HALF the hassles? Cartels are rich, yes, but not stupid. The American average media consumer, however, not so bright on average. Easily mislead.

Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk