3 Wheeler Electrical System Walkthrough

[phil200E]

Hi all,

I'm just getting into the world of ATVs, motorcycyles, and of course ATC's. Specifically in this case a 1982 Honda 200E. This is a classic case of, "It was running fine and then just died one day and now I can't get any spark." So I decided (after difficulties in troubleshooting) that I should really understand what is going on in the whole of the system so that I can check it piece by piece to find the faulty part.

So, here is my current understanding of the system. Please correct me if something is wrong.

It starts at the Stator, where a magnet on the fly wheel spins around inside of the stationary copper coils of the stator and produces an AC current. This AC current is then directed to (in the case of my 200E) the Regulator/Rectifier, where the AC current is transformed into DC current to charge the battery and also towards the CDI unit. This AC current from the Stator then goes through the CDI and into the primary coil of the Ignition coil where it produces a magnetic field that envelops the Secondary Coil. The pulse generator which is spinning as well will then send a small charge through the pickup (when the magnets spin past it) into the CDI. The CDI then momentarily shuts off the AC current that is going into the Ignition Coil. As the magnetic field collapses around the secondary coil it causes the voltage to rise dramatically which is then channeled down the Spark Plug wire and into the Spark Plug, through the spark plug and into the ground (which is either the engine or your hand...Zap!). There by completing the spark circuit.


Does that sound right?

[barnett468]

.
The most common cause of no spark on a Honda is a bad CDI . . You can check the stator coils and primary ignition coil and pulsar coil for proper resistance . . see the spec in the manual.

i wouldn't even bother with testing the cdi.

check all the connections including the ground wires . . if any are dirty or corroded, i would clean them.

if the cdi is bad, you can buy a new chinese one for $5.00 and wire it in.

[barnett468]

.
free service manual

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

[NETRA3]

Get A Continuity tester, that will help you chase grounds and other issues in the system,...Check the kill switch...

[phil200E]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses (belive me, I checked the kill switch :). I was really looking for how the system works from start to finish so that I can really take care of any issues in the future, but maybe I'll settle for just getting it running for now.

I tested the stator, and it has continuity out of the two yellow wires with the plug connector and according to my multi-meter is grounded. The stator only has 1.5 ACV coming out of the black wire with red indicators on it, so I think the stator is bad.

But then the wire coming out of the CDI and into the Ignition coil has 7.5ACV! Is this possible? or am I measuring the wrong part?

Also, if I were to hold onto the output wire from the stator, would I be able to feel anything?

[NETRA3]

Another option would be to find some donor parts and work your way around through cancellation,... Maybe that 250 shares electrical components with other machines? Electrical is a PITA, I've had similar experiences and it ended up being the spark plug cap itself, I've unscrewed it, clipped the wire end and re installed, just a thought.

[Flyingw]

Phil, you're close.

There are two parts to the stator, ignition and lighting. The two circuits work independent of each other.

Ignition,
As the flywheel spins past the ignition coil (Exciter Coil), it induces a voltage in to the coil producing AC power. That AC power is fixed. The AC power is sent to the CDI where its stored in a capacitor. A separate magnet spins past the pickup coil (Pulse Coil) and at the moment when the magnet passes the pickup coil send a small AC voltage to the CDI telling it to discharge the capacitor. When the capacitor discharges, that voltage is sent to the primary side of the ignition coil. The ignition coil then passes the AC voltage to the secondary side where its stepped up and sent down the high tension lead to fire the plug. The timing of this is dependent on the position of the flywheel on the crank and happens at the speed of light. Very simple system.

Lighting,
Now there are basically 3 different types of lighting systems, #1 systems with no external regulator. ATC 70, ATC 90, ATC110, ATC 185, ATC 200S, and ATC 200X (83-85). These systems rely on the wiring and bulb filaments to regulate the voltage through the natural resistance in the copper wiring and bulb filaments. The same thing happens in the lighting system as the ignition system. It too generates AC voltage. That voltage will vary from around 7 volts AC to as much as 50 volts AC at 5000 RPMs but because of the resistance keeps the voltage down to around 14 volts AC. On these systems, if one bulb goes out, it will typically blow the other bulb soon after because the voltage will go up when one of the filaments is removed from the circuit. These systems are rated for a small output and don't allow any room for expansion for additional lights. The ATC 70 is a 6 volt system whereas the rest are 12 volt systems.

The second type of system is lighting systems with an external regulator, 250R, 350X, 200X (86/87). Instead of the wiring and bulb filaments regulating power, they use what's called a shunt meaning any voltages produced by the lighting coil over about 13.6 volts AC are electrically dumped overboard for lack of a better term. This is why when the shunt goes bad, the bulbs will go real bright when the RPMs come up then the bulbs blow. That's because the AC voltage is pushing 50 volts and the bulbs can't handle it and blow. These systems usually have a larger lighting coil and have room left to handle additional lights.

The third type are the trikes with batteries. The same applies to these in that all power produced by the lighting coil is AC. Instead of having a shunt, these have a inverter/regulator. The regulator side does the same thing as the shunt capping the voltage at around 13.6 volts but its still AC however, that power is sent to the inverter where is changed to DC to charge the battery. The lights on these systems will typically run off the battery. The inverter has a battery monitoring circuit that monitors the battery power level and when that power level drops below a certain level, the battery monitor circuit will kick on charging the battery back up and shuts off when the battery is charged. This works much the same way your car works. Running these system with a bad battery or without a battery is very hard on the regulator/inverter because the battery monitor is always on thinking it needs to charge the battery. The output from the battery charging circuit is actually very small so running the system with a bad battery or no battery is just barely enough to run the lights.

All of these systems rely on a good mechanical bond between the motor and the frame to provide ground. No ground, no power will be produced in either system so a good ground is vital.

So that's it in a nutshell.

[barnett468]

You can have continuity and voltage and still have a dirty connection, been there, done that, so you should also check resistance wherever you can or just make sure all the connections are clean as I suggested earlier.

[barnett468]

I was really looking for how the system works from start to finish so that I can really take care of any issues in the future, but maybe I'll settle for just getting it running for now.
ok, in addition to Flyingw's info, the magnet on the flywheel is one part of the system that generates electricity . . The weaker its magnets get, the less voltage the system will produce . . These magnets can loose some magnetism over time and it is not uncommon for a system to have a "working" flywheel and coils but not produce sufficient voltage . . If the coils are within spec and the plug spark is yellow/weak, it is quite possible that the flywheel has lost some magnetism . . There are actually places that re-manetize flywheels . . One place that does this is below.

http://www.scooterwest.com/item_details/Flywheel-Re-Magnetizing/4045

The coils in the stator are the other part of the system that generates electricity . . The greater the resistance of a coil, the more electricity it will produce . . A coil can still have continuity but have resistance that is too low to create sufficient voltage . . You can have coils would with higher resistance . . One place that does this is below.

http://www.rickystator.com/





I tested the stator, and it has continuity out of the two yellow wires with the plug connector and according to my multi-meter is grounded.

In addition to this test you MUST check the ohm reading as I suggested in my first post, and the spec for all the electrical items can be found in the service manual that I gave you the link to.

[barnett468]

Also, if I were to hold onto the output wire from the stator, would I be able to feel anything?

Only if you stuck your tongue on it and a ground wire at the same time . . You need around 50 volts AC or DC to feel anything if using a body part other than your tongue...well actually, since there are areas of my body I have not connected my jumper cables to, I could be wrong about that. :lol:

[Flyingw]

Mr Barnett is absolutely correct about magnets loosing their strength over time. Constant exposure to heat can weaken the magnetic field. He is also correct about continuity. You can have continuity with 1 strand of wire but put a load on it and that's another thing entirely. The principals of electricity can be a bit confusing but for basic troubleshooting, you need a meter and the book with the resistance values. The only part you can't check with an average meter is the CDI and that's because its logic is transistorized and requires special gizmos to check accurately.

[Kyleiniowa]

The second type of system is lighting systems with an external regulator, 250R, 350X, 200X (86/87). Instead of the wiring and bulb filaments regulating power, they use what's called a shunt meaning any voltages produced by the lighting coil over about 13.6 volts AC are electrically dumped overboard for lack of a better term. This is why when the shunt goes bad, the bulbs will go real bright when the RPMs come up then the bulbs blow. That's because the AC voltage is pushing 50 volts and the bulbs can't handle it and blow. These systems usually have a larger lighting coil and have room left to handle additional lights.


Does this mean that on an ATC 250R an LED bulb made for less than 14v is pretty much plug and play?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Flyingw]

As a rule, LED bulbs are rated for between 6-36 volts so a 14 volt bulb should be just fine.

[Flyingw]

What bulb are you referring to? The 250R uses an H4 bulb

[Kyleiniowa]

What bulb are you referring to? The 250R uses an H4 bulb
LEDs are just the new cool thing, so of course my 3 wheeler needs some right? 😀 Need a new bulb...

https://hogworkz.com/h4-led-motorcycle-headlight-bulb-cree-28w-white-6000k.html?utm_source=google_shopping&gclid=CjwKEAiAhaqzBRDNltaS0pW5mWgSJADd7cYDySqylogT-Z4qEFmKRKyA9G9irLl76Rb81-Y8aCFTehoCAR3w_wcB

Would this work on my 250R?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Flyingw]

I really cant say but give it a go and report back. The light base configuration is right so what do you have to lose?

[phil200E]

Just figured I'd check back in and let you all know what ended up happening. It turned out that the stator coil that generates for the spark plug was bad, so I replaced that and was delighted to see that beautiful blue spark jumping off of the plug. (My roommate literally came out into the garage to see what I was yelling about...)

Thanks again for all of your help in teaching me about how and why the system works!