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View Full Version : 1980 Honda ATC with Pheonix engine, need help with starting!!



khylenb
02-10-2016, 06:34 PM
Hi guys, just new to the forum and need some technical help, definatly think I have come to the right place!

I have just bought a Honda 1980 (from frame number) ATC with a Pheonix engine in (don't know too much about the engine??) and can't get it to start.

When I bought it it was up and running but had been sat for 6 months, I had a little test drive and all seemed fine. I then got it home and could only jump start it but would die within 30 seconds and then nothing!

I took the carb off and the top set snapped so I bought a new carb of eBay (only £20!) Put that on but still nothing. It has a good spark and 130 psi compression. It doesn't even sound like starting! I have tried a squirt of fuel in the spark plug hole but still no! Spark plug is pretty dry when I take it out after trying to start it, but has slight gas residue on it.

Any help would be absolutely amazing as I am running out of ideas!

Cheers guys!

1979atc
02-10-2016, 06:46 PM
Timing could be off. Is it a Atc 90/110??

khylenb
02-10-2016, 06:56 PM
Hi

Thanks for the reply!

Its a 110, not sure if the Phoenix engine is factory though?

1979atc
02-10-2016, 08:05 PM
Post some pics of the engine.

ps2fixer
02-11-2016, 12:14 AM
I second the pics of engine, where are you seeing "Phoenix" at? Doing a quick google search brings up a company selling V8 engines and offering machine shop work, so maybe the engine was worked on by them and the owner got some free stickers to slap around to give the business some free advertising?

You said you looked up the frame vin number, you gave us the year, but forgot to mention which model (atc70, atc110, or atc185?).

Based on your description so far, spark + fuel + compression = running engine in the most basic sense, so must be timing of the spark. Maybe the cam is 180 degrees off? A bad and sloppy timing chain could make it jump timing even if it was good timing before hand when it did run.

Red Rider
02-11-2016, 02:20 AM
I have just bought a Honda 1980 (from frame number) ATC with a Pheonix engine in (don't know too much about the engine??) and can't get it to start.I've heard of the Phoenix Foundation before, but I'm not sure if they did any engine work or porting though. If anyone at the Phoenix Foundation could do it, it was this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKTNWI0eYJ4

Ghostv2
02-11-2016, 04:27 PM
You bought a carb off eBay? If you are not sure what the motor is or much about it how did you know what carb to buy? Or what jets to put in it? I know the 110 Chinese carbs I got off eBay had too small of jets in them. So I would start there and figure it out.

Actually I would take some pictures and post them on here so we can take a look and figure out what you have first. Pictures say a thousand words.

khylenb
02-11-2016, 05:33 PM
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Hi guys. I really really appreciate the help and advice, I honestly do so thank you all very much!

To confirm, it is a Honda 110 atc 1980. It appears that it may have had a new head put on it but I am not sure, it definitely appears to be a lot newer than the rest of the engine! I live in the UK and found this website:

http://www.phoenixrebore.co.uk

It may be that at some point some work was done here, which maybe the reason for the 'Phoenix' logo.

The guy I bought it off said that it had a dodgy carb and the carb was leaking fuel, so I took it apart and the top set nut snapped. I just presumed that it was the original Honda 110 carb so I bought a replacement Honda 110 1980 carb from Ebay. I changed the oil as the oil stunk of gas.

Hope this gives a bit more info!

khylenb
02-11-2016, 05:40 PM
227639

Another pic

khylenb
02-11-2016, 05:42 PM
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khylenb
02-11-2016, 05:47 PM
Hi guys. Really really appreciate the help and comments, a lot!!

So to confirm it is a Honda 110 1980 atc. I presume it has had a new head at some point as it is a different colour to the rest of the engine! I live in the UK and found this web site:

http://www.phoenixrebore.co.uk/about-us.php

So it maybe at some point it had work done here, that would explain the 'Phoenix' logo. Still not sure if it is the original engine though? The guy I bought it off said that the carb was leaking, so when I removed it the top set nut snapped. I just presumed the carb was an original Honda 1980 110 carb so I just bought a replacement from Ebay. I changed the oil also as it was stinking of gas.

Many thanks for the help!

khylenb
02-11-2016, 05:48 PM
Hi guys. Really really appreciate the help and comments, a lot!!

So to confirm it is a Honda 110 1980 atc. I presume it has had a new head at some point as it is a different colour to the rest of the engine! I live in the UK and found this web site called phoenix rebore.

So it maybe at some point it had work done there, that would explain the 'Phoenix' logo. Still not sure if it is the original engine though? The guy I bought it off said that the carb was leaking, so when I removed it the top set nut snapped. I just presumed the carb was an original Honda 1980 110 carb so I just bought a replacement from Ebay. I changed the oil also as it was stinking of gas.

Many thanks for the help!

1979atc
02-11-2016, 06:29 PM
You have a different motor, it is not stock. Looks like someone tried to make it work. The motor might be Chinese but I'm not quite sure, Honda's were made in Japan. What color is the spark? You want a crisp blue spark. Yellow is weak which could be a weak coil, corroded connections, bare wires etc.. I would look at all wiring, make sure it has good spark, getting fuel, and make sure timing is correct.

ps2fixer
02-11-2016, 08:10 PM
Is the new carb bolted on nice and tight? In the photos it looks loose/air gap on the front side of the engine. The side cover is engraved with the brand, so I guess most likely it is a china made engine with that name (never heard of them). I can see the wiring was worked with quite a lot, but it isn't the factory engine so kind of expected.

Did some quick searching and found a very similar engine which gives some specs. Based on the search I did it most likely is a 110cc, but some 125cc had the same engine code.

http://www.cncyclesparts.com/productDetail_437.html

I can see it is kick start and manual clutch. The china engine does not have a mechanical pulse generator spark advancer like the OEM engine had, so the advancement has to be done by the CDI, but I think it has the correct china cdi of what I can see.

On the left side of the engine is two removable caps for checking the timing. That is how to setup the crank for top dead center, but Not sure how you check the cam timing on those engines.

Ghostv2
02-12-2016, 08:49 AM
If your trying to run it like that the jetting is going to be way off. No air box, no filter. As I said before they come with jets that are too small to start off with. Pull it, check what size jets it has in it. Just another thing to think about along with what these other guys are suggesting.

Should be a fun bike once it gets running.

khylenb
02-12-2016, 01:18 PM
227673Hi Guys, many many more thanks again for the replys and info!!

I googled the engine number and it can up with a Chinese model 152fmh 110cc, so you are all correct in it being Chinese! The correct carb should have been a pz22 but I ordered a replacement Honda 110 carb. I took the jets out of the old carb and they were the same as the new carb apart from one. It was 76 and the old carb had an 81, so I put the old jet in the new carb, hopefully this should work?

As I was then putting the carb back on I thought I would double check the spark again and the spark plug lead came out of the little black box it is connected to. I tried screwing it back in but couldn't get a spark, so presume I'm going to have to order a new one! I think this is the original cable, do I order 1 for a Honda 110 or so I try to get 1 that matches the Chinese engine?

1 bloody problem after another!!

1979atc
02-12-2016, 01:25 PM
Get one that matches that one you have. Hopefully you get good spark. Did you by any chance check timing? I think it would be that, when you did have spark. Good luck

khylenb
02-13-2016, 07:25 AM
Hi again! A few more developments...

I thought I would give the coil another try and it turns out that the kill switch on the handlebars is backwards! When it's in the 'up' position I don't get a spark, but when it's pressed down then I get a nice solid blue spark! Someone really butchered the wiring on this thing!

Not tried starting again, going to check timing first so just ready my up in how to do it on this Chinese engine! Do I need to keep the cover on and just look through the window or do I remove the cover? It's an electric start as the kick start doesn't move, not sure if that affects it?

NETRA3
02-13-2016, 12:02 PM
Not sure about the chinese engines, but I assume there are no points and that it has a pulse pickup....Take your time, Put it back together and make a complete run through the wiring /connections, etc. Sometimes the battery needs to be installed to complete the circuits, or a battery charger attached on the prescribed setting.

DohcBikes
02-13-2016, 12:13 PM
Don't mess with the timing. It took this long to find spark and that says a lot. Put the carb back on and fire it up.

1979atc
02-13-2016, 12:56 PM
Check everything over connections and wiring. And see if you can get to fire after you put carb back on. If you still can't get it to fire then check timing to just make sure if it is right. I had the same problem with my Atc 90.

ps2fixer
02-13-2016, 10:33 PM
Just a small note on the kill switch thing, newer honda engines use a naturally closed kill switch while the older ones (which the chinese engine is based on I'd think) is naturally opened (shorted wires makes it run). You can't mess up the wire harness in a way to make it reversed like that and the CDI determines which style of kill switch is used. The kill switch on it does not look like a Honda one, so I'm kind of confused why the wrong one is installed unless the labeling doesn't make much sense.

khylenb
02-18-2016, 07:53 PM
Hi Guys, sorry for the delay in updating, but definitely a few developments!

I Did go ahead and check the timing, I moved the cog 1 chain link clockwise (if that makes sense!?), this was as close to the timing mark as I could get it (see pic).

227889

I then did a check of wiring, put carb back on, started her up......and BoOm....she fired right up!! I played about with carb and she is now ticking over lovely! I have been blasting about all day and she is well and truly caked in mud! Need to get me some of them rubber mud flaps!

Only problem is I cannot get it into neutral, all other gears are fine and very easy to select but when going down it won't go any further than 1st? So I have to keep clutch helled down when stopping etc, Suppose I can't have it all!!

Can't thank you all enough for the advice!!! Really really thank you all!!

ps2fixer
02-19-2016, 01:56 AM
Clutch might be a lil sticky from siting so long. Actually did you change the oil? If not, maybe there is some water in it, or the past owner used the wrong type. If you did change it, did you put motorcycle oil in, the kind that is good for wet clutches? "Normal" engine oil can make shifting act weird similar to what it sounds like your experiencing.

I personally use Rotella T 10W 30 as it has the correct cert for our machines, the 15w 40 does not!

You could always buy Honda oil or similar, but that stuff has a pretty high price.

Bren_downe
02-19-2016, 04:22 AM
Are you sure neutral is all the way at the bottom and not half way between 1st and 2nd?

khylenb
02-22-2016, 05:05 PM
Turns out you were right, neutral is nestled between 1st and 2nd. It's a bit of a pain to get it to go into neutral. When I'm in 1st and come to a stop, then go up a gear for neutral, sometimes it works, and others it finds 2nd. I have got the correct oil for wet clutches. I think it's just a bit temperamental to be fair! It's a great starter now though on the plus side!

ps2fixer
02-23-2016, 11:26 PM
Yea the neutral between 1st and 2nd is a bit of a pain setup, the Yamaha Warrior I used to ride as a kid was always a complete fight to get it in neutral, sometimes it was easier to just kill the engine and then put it in neutral.