1983 Honda ATC200E BIG RED

[deejaycee_2000]

Hi guys

I just picked up a 83' 200E Big Red for R2000 (that is about $135 US) .... not running at the moment but looks like it is complete other than the wiring that seems to be a mess, it even have the original toolkit with it. The owner said he thinks it is the coil that is faulty .... does anyone have any suggestion, comments, anything I should look out for etc? It basically looks like the bike was taken apart and put together by someone that doesn't know where everything goes ... all comments will be appreciated. I would like to take it apart, powdercoat the frame and tank, clean it all up and restore it completely ....

[ps2fixer]

Very first thing I'd do personally is find out exactly what you have. Basically get it running and ride it around a little. Bearing issues, engine issues etc should show up fairly quick if you keep an eye and ear out of them.

It is fairly common for ignition problems on the 200 series big red, seems the CDI's are getting to the point where they are starting to fail quite commonly. I'd suggest downloading the service manual and checking all of the coils in the engine (pulse generator, ignition coil, exciter coil (power for cdi), and lighting coil. If all are within spec, ohm the wires to make sure it all connects where they should (most end up at the CDI plug), validate good ground on the green wire everywhere. If all checks out there, might be worth while buying a cheap Chinese CDI to atleast get it running.

Just how bad is the wire harness? I checked and I can make a reproduction for the machine, but it would cost quite a bit (estimated $130-150 range). The other option is a used harness, but they are all the same age, so dry rot, brittleness is a common problem.

I'm not really aware of any other common issues on that machine, misuse is probably the biggest, but that isn't the machine's fault. I run into a lot that need the top end re-done, but you're already talking about restoring it, so that kind of goes along with that.

Oh one thing that is very very common to be bad is the front "shocks". They are a design that isn't used on any other machine that I know of and a 200m front end is a common swap because of that. I'm going off from a 84 200es big red, but I'm pretty sure the 82-83 200e's are the same setup.

If I remember correctly, the 200e doesn't have reverse, and it is chain drive. The 200es is shaft drive with reverse. Just food for thought if you wanted the "upgraded" version of the machine to target for the restore. The 84 200es was also the most sold model in the US, so atleast over here the parts are super common.

[deejaycee_2000]

Thank you for the info ... I personally think it is all working, and that it was just wired wrong, the whole harness is still in good condition just connected incorrectly, so I am hoping if I connect it all back together correctly it will work 100% ... I will def redo it according to the manual and see what I come up with and hopefully the Cdi is still good but I will have to test it to be sure. The shocks seems to be very hard and hardly moves, parts are very hard to come by here in South Africa so I will have to repair as much as I can as importing anything from the US cost more than the trike is worth in shipping alone. Hopefully I can get the shocks up to scratch too. You are correct it's got no reverse and is chain drive, only have hi and lo range. For it's age it is in great condition and can see that it was not abused, the original tyres and plastics are still 100%, just faded from the sun over the years and the tyres have age cracks but the thread is still at about 40% ... There is quite a few extra parts that I got with in a box that I need to figure out where it goes.

[ps2fixer]

Can you post photos up of the machine and the extra parts?

I was thinking the harness was taken apart, plugged together wrong is so much better. Basically just have to match up the colors of wires. Testing the CDI is a bit tricky, generally testing on the machine and checking for spark is the test, but if there is no spark, there are other parts you check with a Ohm meter and if they are all good then the CDI might be the problem. The service manual might give Ohm readings for the CDI which might give an idea but isn't a for sure good vs bad test.

The front shocks are the hardest part to find over here since basically every one of them is bad. Out of 5 of my machines, 3 or so were welded together, the other ones are worn badly. If they are stiff to move, they might be savable. They come apart and is basically a spring with a dampener at the bottom. I haven't done it personally, but I'd expect either mud or rust to be in there and the dampener is probably worn. As long as the rest of the housing/tubing is in good shape the dampener can be sourced yet of what I have read in the past, the housing/tube is the part that is near impossible to find good.

My first 200es big red came with the oem tires with probably 60% tread and dry rot cracks. The tires lasted a good 6 months before I had one blow out in a sand and snow environment. The front tire was the worst by far and was tubed... I knew that because I could see the tube though the cracks lol.

Also understandable about the import/shipping costs from the US, some countries is really expensive, while others are just expensive to send to. I looked up the rates real quick and a 1 pound package is $22 and 4 pound is $58 for the cheapest option (usps first class).

Here is an older photo of the 200es I have after I replaced the tires. Camera was going bad so not the best photos. You can see how badly worn the front shocks are though by the angle difference of the housing vs tube.

[deejaycee_2000]

I will take some pics this evening and post back tomorrow morning ... hopefully it will be as easy as matching the colour wires and building it correctly again, from what I can see the key was lost so they had to bypass the ignition, but luckily I have a whole box of ATV keys and one of them fit so that solves that problem ... I can see that the trike was garaged it's whole life so no rust and luckily no rust on the front shocks, the boots are gone but it looks good, no damage to them whatsoever. I see in the manual they show how to disassemble them so I will give it a try. Do you perhaps know where I can find a complete parts list PDF online?
Here in South Africa they still charge customs duties and import tax after everything else making it super expensive, I imported new plastics for my 250R a few months ago and it cost me more than the bike was worth. Luckily they sent the package as a "gift" so they didn't nail me too much on the taxes, but I got nailed badly on the wheel spacers and carb kit from motorsport.com as they used a courier service and I had to pay for a clearing agent and the clearing cost. Ended up paying more that the cost of the actual parts. Got love the corruption in South Africa LOL.
Thank you for the pics, I can see what you mean about the shocks!
I will take detailed pics this evening of everything and report back.

[ps2fixer]

I see, nice find on the matching key, not many people know that there isn't too many different cuts possible so the same key gets used more often than people would think.

The best parts list I know of is the online dealer websites. They are what I use to figure out interchangeable parts and such too.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1983/ATC200E+A/parts.html

Import fees sound like a nightmare, my dad got hit with them once on a group of $800 parts for a car he bought in bulk and had to pay something like $140 import taxes from Canada.

Sounds like the machine is super clean, should be a great one to start with on a restore =).

[deejaycee_2000]

Here are the pics .... I can't fins a serial no anywhere ...

[deejaycee_2000]

I have a box full of old chinese bikes keys that I collected over the years LOL ...

Thank you for the link, I will have to part it out section by section ... as you can see in the pics I am left with a whole floor of parts and will have to figure out where they go ... I see the guy put the front break on the wrong side ...

[ps2fixer]

Pretty nice clean looking machine. Looks like the tank was repainted and maybe the frame too? Based on memory, I think the frame serial number was a sticker on the goose-neck of the frame. The older machines used to have it stamped right into the frame metal in the same spot.

Looks like it might have some spare parts unless the airbox, exhaust etc are off the machine.

The tubing is for the bottom of the air box, and engine crank case vent

Bracket appears to be for the rear fender/rack (under side of the fender)

Skid plate goes under the rear end

The black plastic that says hond is for the handle bars, the rounded off honda part comes out and there is 2 bolt holes that are extremely commonly ripped out, it also has a bit of a clamp effect on the other side, so not too bad if it is bad.

The plug with the wires is the aux power plug, goes up on the left side of the rack/front fork area

First bracket (left) looks to be the bracket that goes on a shaft drive machine right on the output shaft, not sure if the chain drive version uses that one.

2nd and 3rd brackets appear to be front engine mounting brackets

Vent hose on the skid plate looks like the vent tube for the rear diff on the shaft drive version

White plastic part is for the battery box to keep the battery from getting beat up

Wing nut style bolts are for the airbox lid

Brown wire bullet connector that is cut off would be for the taillight positive, runs from the handle bars back to the tail light, hopefully it isn't from your harness.

Left of the skid plate, the round rubber part is for the starter solenoid to frame mount.

I think that covers most of what is there except the extra bolts.

I looked up the output shaft bracket, and the diagram looks different from that bracket so might be wrong there. #5 in diagram.
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1984/ATC200ES+A/SIDE+GEAR+CASE+%2B+GROSS+SHAFT/parts.html

Looks a lot closer to the starter bracket for the back side of the starter (right side of engine), yous is missing it so makes sense.
#5 - http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1983/ATC200E+A/STARTER+MOTOR/parts.html

[deejaycee_2000]

The guy lightly spray painted the tank so it does not rust, but I will powdercoat it back to a nice finish ... the frame and rear axle seems to be freshly painted and the rims was powder coated white a long time ago. Yes the airbox and exhaust are off the machine, as far as I know everything there is off the machine and needs to be put back in place .... I might be wrong.
Thank you for all the help, you are right on the money with the brackets ...
Luckily the guy didn't fiddle with the motor itself, I don't want to break the motor apart too much as gaskets is non existent here ...
I will have to fabricate quite a few of the rubber parts that is brittle, the toolbox band is broken etc. The decals I will have to draw up and get made.

Let the restoration begin ...

[ps2fixer]

Ahh ok, then most of the parts are account for =D.

Can you get honda dealership parts, or are they insanely high priced from the import fees? Some of the rubber parts are still listed (air box mounts I think are).

Not sure what kind of resources you can get, but an alternative to pre-made gaskets is to buy gasket paper and carefully hand make the gasket your self. I have done this before in a small engines class in school and is pretty simple to do. The instructor has a bit of an odd way of marking the gasket though for where to cut it and such. He had us tap lightly with a hammer to imprint the gasket to the surface, there might be a better process since the engine parts are not steel/cast iron.

I'm not sure how OEM you're trying to go with the restore, but the factory setup for the rear axle would be zinc plating. However if you're just wanting to make it look good and be more or less a rider, then do whatever seems right =). I don't think I have ever seen a painted axle, I suspect there might be a reason for that.

Anyway, good luck with the restore, seems like it should be a fairly simple/easy machine to make nice.

[deejaycee_2000]

The honda dealerships here aren't too bad, but they refuse to help you if you don't supply them with a VIN number, which I am yet to find on the trike LOL ....
I have made a few gaskets before, but looking at the motor it seems to be good, no oil leaks or dirt other than the test of time.
I will definitely inspect the axle this weekend, the guy wanted to get the trike going for his kids so maybe he just tried to make it look pretty or something LOL.
I took the front wheel off last night and realised I am missing part no. 5 & 15 - http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1983/ATC200E+A/FRONT+WHEEL/parts.html, I can obviously see that no.15 is a washer or spacer, but do you perhaps know what no. 5 is? It is missing from the description list swell so no way of telling what it is ...

[ps2fixer]

Yea that is one of the odd ball things I have came across with that site. Here is my theory on it, might be correct, might be wrong. The diagrams (drawings) cover more than one year typically so the missing part numbers are from the older design (1982 200e in this case) and later Honda redesigned things enough to not need the part(s). I have seen it a few times where I look at parts and I really want the part number on the diagram, but it was missing, go back a year or two and there it is.

The front washer/collar parts are listed at the link below. The collar slips in the forks and kind of locks the front axle in so it can't fall off if you did a wheelie with the front axle loose. I'm not sure if the newer model has a redesign, but the interchange list suggests 83 and 84 does not use it.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-44302-918-000.html

Does the dealership care if the VIN is one that ended up in other countries (USA)? I should have a spare frame I could give ya the VIN off of so you would be able to get most of the parts you'd need. It would be for an 84 though (shaft drive).

#5 & 15 - http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/ATV/1982/ATC200E+A/FRONT+WHEEL/parts.html

Here is what the collar looks like, the other part is just a basic washer (14mm).

Here is a collar for a different machine, but gives a better idea what it looks like.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/84-HONDA-ATC125M-FRONT-RIGHT-AXLE-SPACER-COLLAR-SLEEVE-/371115718745?hash=item5668387859:g:XRsAAOSwxCxT4Ak N&vxp=mtr

Here is an ebay listing for the 200e front axle, I looked at a couple and they look to be setup the same way, so if you have the parts like they have, you should be all set.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-ATC200E-ATC200ES-Big-Red-OEM-Front-Axle-W-Spacer-Nut-1983-/371576468149?hash=item5683aef2b5%3Ag%3AV4UAAOSwr7Z W6Z2B&vxp=mtr&nma=true&si=K4ZqDGdar7mLP%252FHaN3BwrzWLAz4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[deejaycee_2000]

Thank you for all the help, I really appreciate it!
Stripped the whole trike this weekend, started cleaning every part. Gas tank was badly rusted on the inside and cleared it right up with some pool acid.
I tested my coil and got some strange readings, bought a generic coil (chinese) fits perfectly but the coil itself is much smaller than the original, I hope this won't make a difference.
I also tested the CDI according to the manual and could only get readings from 2 of the connectors, so I suspect my CDI is fried, would it be as easy as replacing it with a generic chinese CDI?
Another strange thing I picked up is that the CDI I have does not look anything like the CDI from the manual and/or replacements I see on eBay ... see pics attached ... it looks like the CDI from the ATC200X, ATC200M ATC200S

[ps2fixer]

I'm pretty sure the CDI from antoher 200cc honda 3 wheeler would work. The CDI plugs changed around this time, before 84 they were a square 6 pin plug, then ~84-86 they used the round 6 pin like you photoed, and after that to modern machines they have been using the 4+2 pin connector CDIs. Looks like your CDI is the same as the 84 200ES in America

Here is a good thread on a China based CDI - http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/144910-1984-200ES-CDI-Replacement-MythBusted

I'd suggest removing the pins out of the old CDI, and putting the new style connector on it with the Chinese CDI if you don't mind the possible lower quality (keep a spare on you).

Here is the 4+2 cdi connector, not sure if you would be able to source one local though. Scroll to the bottom of this page http://cycleterminal.com/

The other option is to cut and splice the wires, not really a fan of that myself. The round style CDI isn't really common, I have seen a couple listed on US Ebay, but they are $40-50 and claim to be made by the same company as OEM.

Here is the 200es service manual page for the CDI - https://gyazo.com/ea504677ebe91bb620657ad5f396c643

Generally most people test all of the coils (pickup, ignition, etc) and if nothing there is found bad and still no spark, then the CDI is blamed, so I'd try the china coil and see if you get any spark at all. Being smaller might mean a little weaker spark, or they used smaller wire, doesn't seem to be a huge factor unless you're into racing and going super high compression etc. A nice bright white/blue spark is what you should have. Dull yellow/orange is too weak. Don't forget to get another spark plug to rule that out as a possible issue too.

Good luck!

[deejaycee_2000]

Thank you very much, I will give it a try.

[deejaycee_2000]

Do you perhaps know if the CDI is AC or DC? I see there are a few generic versions out there ....

[ps2fixer]

If I remember correctly the smaller ones are DC, might be best to wait for someone to validate though.

Looking at the wire diagram, it looks like Black/Red is the power supply wire to CDI, and it comes from a coil in the alternator, so I guess the wire diagram suggests AC, not really much help, just more confusing for yea.

[deejaycee_2000]

Thank you, after much research I can confirm that it is def AC ...

[ps2fixer]

Based on my notes above, I'd lean more on the AC side since that is what the wire diagram suggests (alternator vs generator term and the CDI being wired directly to it, not though the regulator/rectifier).

Those engines are pretty resistant to mistakes, if you did get the wrong CDI, I think the only thing really at risk would be the CDI burning out. Coils are fairly resistant to damaged unless overheated and shorted for too long.