1982 ATC 200 rebuild&upgrade experts help!

[C-lab]

Alright, new member here. I got this ATC 200 in rough shape a few years back for free. Put some gas in it and rode it around my shop just doing wheelies and riding on the side 2 wheels on pavement and gravel. The thing smoked like a train, clutch slipped, but it ran ok. Recently I took it off road for the first time and was hooked almost immediately.

So, now I'm fixing it up a bit to make it run and ride better. Not worried about looks because I don't want to have to worry about keeping it nice.

Tore down the engine and found this.
http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/058E6302-AAEC-4C00-B2D8-6BD373BD3C0B_zpslnanovh1.mp4.html

[yaegerb]

don't know how you loaded that pic, but I can't open it. Try loading it again as a .jpg. What is it we are looking at, the crown of the piston?

[RUNMEDOWN]

From the small pic it looks like the ring is on top of the piston, but having issues loading a bigger version of the pic. If that's the case it should not be in there.

[C-lab]

Ok, I appreciate the replies so far, but the pic is a short vid and it isnt my question. Sorry for not giving all the info up front. I wanted to make sure the video worked, then add more. So I submitted the thread thinking I could add more right then, not knowing it would have to go to the mods first.

The video just shows that the piston is loose in the bore. Now you can imagine how much it smoked! I actually felt bad for those behind me, so I'm fixing it.

Here is the piston skirt.
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/ED3BDC65-9F6D-4956-8EE5-D10249A442D4_zpsiqh8rzz9.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/ED3BDC65-9F6D-4956-8EE5-D10249A442D4_zpsiqh8rzz9.jpg.html)

So I ordered a 66mm 12:1 Wiseco piston and rings for it. I know many do not recommend the 12:1, but I've seen others say they ran it and it pull started just fine, so I went for it.

I sent the jug out to the machine shop where they bored it and resurfaced the deck. I also had them level up the cylinder head mating surface.

Did a conservative port job (I know some don't recommend trying this at home). My brother did the port work and he's done extensive reading and gotten good results in the past. I also polished the combustion chamber.
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/A81EDF81-3645-4FF7-B7D5-D2DE4874CA68_zpsgxnwaj9o.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/A81EDF81-3645-4FF7-B7D5-D2DE4874CA68_zpsgxnwaj9o.jpg.html)
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/646DCB18-A410-410C-B76F-73F393B5F04B_zpshk0ahrnf.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/646DCB18-A410-410C-B76F-73F393B5F04B_zpshk0ahrnf.jpg.html)

[yaegerb]

Alright, new member here. I got this ATC 200 in rough shape a few years back for free. Put some gas in it and ride it around my shop just doing wheelies and riding on the side 2 wheels on pavement and gravel. The thing smoked like a train, clutch slipped, but it ran ok. Recently I took it off road for the first time and was hooked almost immediately.

So, now I'm fixing it up a bit to make it run and ride better. Not worried about looks because I don't want to have to worry about keeping it nice.

Tore down the engine and found this.
http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/058E6302-AAEC-4C00-B2D8-6BD373BD3C0B_zpslnanovh1.mp4.html

ok, I see it now. Time for a new piston/rings/bore. That's quite a bit of slop. Also, check the crank while you are in there. you should have zero up and down play and very minimal side to side.

[yaegerb]

looks good. Crank in good condition?

[C-lab]

I'm not sure about the crank. Bottom end had no noises before I pulled it apart.

I installed the piston and put everything together following the service manuals instructions. I also installed a DG performance exhaust. I have a Mikuni TM28 flatslide but it isn't installed yet. I also installed a dial a jet and 100 octane gas.

Fired it up and there is a bad tapping noise. I think it's most likely the wrist pin but not sure. I'll be tearing it back down to find the sound. I'm sure most of you know how disheartening that is, but oh well, I apparently didn't do something right.

I fixed the clutch by installing EBC friction discs and HD springs before I tore the engine down. This clutch grabs hard now. Glad to have that problem solved.

Now to the questions. These are just the beginning as I'm sure I'll come up with more.

What cam should I run? I'm wanting to go with megacycle either .370" or .435". I'm thinking .370" because I'm not racing this thing and want to keep my bottom end while adding more up top. Seeing the specs of the factory cam, just the .370" would be a huge upgrade over stock. I've seen a couple people talk about the .435" and all the power it makes and since I'm running the 12:1 piston I'm wondering how bad bottom end would suffer? Anyone with actual experience on this? Opinions welcome also.

Planning on getting a new timing chain while doing the cam. How many have degreed in their cams and should I spend the dough to be able to do this?

The Mikuni says that it comes with a 15 pilot and 180 main jet. How should I go about trying to jet this setup? What and how many alternate jets should I have on hand?

Also, the lever style decompression vs the auto cable style. Do you have to hold down the lever while you pull? Mine has the cable style. It wasn't hooked up when I got it and I didn't even know what it was. I hooked it up and saw it moving but didn't notice any change. I'm guessing that's because my compression was so low before the rebuild. But now with the high compression, it's like it works sometimes but sometimes the compression overtakes it and jerks my arm like crazy. I've unhooked it for now. It's way harder to pull, but predictable and my shoulder is happier.

Thanks for the help guys!

[yaegerb]

I'm not sure about the crank. Bottom end had no noises before I pulled it apart.

I installed the piston and put everything together following the service manuals instructions. I also installed a DG performance exhaust. I have a Mikuni TM28 flatslide but it isn't installed yet. I also installed a dial a jet and 100 octane gas.

Fired it up and there is a bad tapping noise. I think it's most likely the wrist pin but not sure. I'll be tearing it back down to find the sound. I'm sure most of you know how disheartening that is, but oh well, I apparently didn't do something right.

I fixed the clutch by installing EBC friction discs and HD springs before I tore the engine down. This clutch grabs hard now. Glad to have that problem solved.

Now to the questions. These are just the beginning as I'm sure I'll come up with more.

What cam should I run? I'm wanting to go with megacycle either .370" or .435". I'm thinking .370" because I'm not racing this thing and want to keep my bottom end while adding more up top. Seeing the specs of the factory cam, just the .370" would be a huge upgrade over stock. I've seen a couple people talk about the .435" and all the power it makes and since I'm running the 12:1 piston I'm wondering how bad bottom end would suffer? Anyone with actual experience on this? Opinions welcome also.

Planning on getting a new timing chain while doing the cam. How many have degreed in their cams and should I spend the dough to be able to do this?

The Mikuni says that it comes with a 15 pilot and 180 main jet. How should I go about trying to jet this setup? What and how many alternate jets should I have on hand?

Also, the lever style decompression vs the auto cable style. Do you have to hold down the lever while you pull? Mine has the cable style. It wasn't hooked up when I got it and I didn't even know what it was. I hooked it up and saw it moving but didn't notice any change. I'm guessing that's because my compression was so low before the rebuild. But now with the high compression, it's like it works sometimes but sometimes the compression overtakes it and jerks my arm like crazy. I've unhooked it for now. It's way harder to pull, but predictable and my shoulder is happier.

Thanks for the help guys!

Tapping noise: Valve lash set correctly? If you are pulling it back apart grab the rod and pull up and down. There should be zero up and down movement. Move the rod side to side and check the gap with a feeler gauge and follow the tolerances in the manual. Small end rod should have zero play in the wrist pin.

Cam: I have had good luck with webcamshafts. If you want a better cam than stock go with the 340b. The next upgrade is the 389a, but that will require a spring kit with titanium retainers and you will need to hardface your rockers. Webcams does hard facing too. I would leave the stock cam gear on the cam and go with an HD cam chain. Don't worry about degreeing it, I have found it to add incremental HP and tons of headache.

Carburetor: I think I ended up with a 170 main and a 30 pilot on my 28MM Mikuni roundslide. I can check the actual specs tonight when I get home and I will edit this post if necessary.

Decompression lever: If you aren't using it anyway, you could always swap out the rocker box with a first gen 200x head, which doesn't have the decomp in it.

[C-lab]

Valve lash was set correctly and rechecked. Is it possible that with the little bit of surface material removed from the cylinder and head, plus the 12:1 dome piston and regular head gasket, not the MLS that I removed, that the piston is smacking the bottom of the head? I don't think so, but want to get your opinions. Also, should I go back with the MLS? If so, where can I find a top end gasket kit that has it?

Here is a pic of the trike how it sits. As you can see, I have a leak in the front tire I need to figure out and fix. This just recently developed.
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/1D417E97-3725-4384-925C-432704214EF2_zpswfhrhshd.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/1D417E97-3725-4384-925C-432704214EF2_zpswfhrhshd.jpg.html)

I followed the LED light install guide and got this:
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/843E38E4-9AE8-4160-980D-77ECC9544E37_zpsav3uqbzv.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/843E38E4-9AE8-4160-980D-77ECC9544E37_zpsav3uqbzv.jpg.html)

One of the mounts is a little crooked which I need to fix. I sprayed the housing with black wrinkle paint because it was in bad shape. I got it used off another bike because it was missing completely. Since the rest of it isn't in great shape, I figured shiny red paint would clash badly, so I went a different way all together.
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/EA7CC4E2-0F2E-4057-8EA0-B590387E7705_zpstfr781tf.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/EA7CC4E2-0F2E-4057-8EA0-B590387E7705_zpstfr781tf.jpg.html)

It has brand new back wheels and 25X9-12 tires.
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/4A4B9F1C-0E0A-482F-84E2-1FD82B54845C_zpsw3lx7doa.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/4A4B9F1C-0E0A-482F-84E2-1FD82B54845C_zpsw3lx7doa.jpg.html)

I did this because someone had put these little 22X11-8 numbers on there. I figured with no rear suspension the bigger tires would smooth out the ride a tiny bit.
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/0E9D4395-62DE-44AD-9177-5B2862E0EB9F_zpspxa3tmib.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/0E9D4395-62DE-44AD-9177-5B2862E0EB9F_zpspxa3tmib.jpg.html)

Can anyone speak to the difference in steering ability with the current front tire vs a regular knobby like I have in the back? I'm thinking the current front might grip better to help me turn but I'm not sure.

That's it for now. More to come!

[C-lab]

Also, it has a plastic gas tank. Not sure what it came off of but it fits just fine.

[yaegerb]

What is an MLS?

[Jd110]

It's a head gasket. MLS multi-layered steel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[yaegerb]

It's a head gasket. MLS multi-layered steel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah, thanks!

If the piston is hitting the head you will know when you pull it off and see marks in polish job.

[C-lab]

It's a head gasket. MLS multi-layered steel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep, you nailed it. Now how do I undo the fact that when I was trying to hit the like button on my phone, the little buttons were so close together I hit dislike on accident? I then hit the like button but now it just shows both. Makes me look like I'm losing my mind liking and disliking something at the same time!

[C-lab]

If the piston is hitting the head you will know when you pull it off and see marks in polish job.
Yep, exactly. The tear down will tell all, but just wanted to get some guesses as to whether that was even a possibility. We will see...

[yaegerb]

Yep, you nailed it. Now how do I undo the fact that when I was trying to hit the like button on my phone, the little buttons were so close together I hit dislike on accident? I then hit the like button but now it just shows both. Makes me look like I'm losing my mind liking and disliking something at the same time!

Tap the dislike button again and it will go away.

[barnett468]

Since they surfaced the head it is certainly possible that the piston might be hitting it or the valves might be hitting the piston . Depends on how much they surfaced it . When building an engine with parts I have not used before, I put clay on the top of the piston then assemble it with the old gasket or just light torque on the new gasket then turn it over then take it back apart and look at the thickness of the clay etc.

I also use the MLS gaskets in some of the high perf engines I build . Cometic makes them.


.................................................. ........https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_R0jcDRd6Nxg/RY8dww5IwzI/AAAAAAAAAKU/PvdcKv2GyQY/s400/southpark-happyholidays.JPG


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[shortline10]

You can use a few cylinder base gaskets to put the cylinder were it needs to be .
Make sure you have zero up and down play in the lower rod bearing when you take it back apart.

[C-lab]

Thanks guys. Shortline, since you've used the .435" megacycle cam in the past, what do you think the bottom end would be like on a stock geared 200 with the 12:1 wiseco? I'm definitely thinking the .370" is a better fit for my application, but I know you spoke highly of the other on your 185 build that I saw. I even think I remember you tried a couple different ones?

[shortline10]

The 435 lift cam is awesome in combo with a high compression piston and will give you gobbs of bottom end power , my only worry would be you milled to much off that head and would have clearance issues.

[C-lab]

I appreciate the info shortline. I know they only leveled the surface on the head and cylinder. They didn't take any more material off than they had to. I plan to tear it down over the break. Once I get to the bottom of things, I'll make my cam selection. Hopefully I have the clearance for the bigger cam. It sounds like it will be the ticket if I can run it.

[C-lab]

So tonight this happened:

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/C17F5ACB-ACE4-4C91-9B60-A13D69C22624_zpsd8ef7vpo.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/C17F5ACB-ACE4-4C91-9B60-A13D69C22624_zpsd8ef7vpo.jpg.html)

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/5BB313E8-1540-40CF-A6C2-26E97EFB64D7_zpshxaqmxdt.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/5BB313E8-1540-40CF-A6C2-26E97EFB64D7_zpshxaqmxdt.jpg.html)

And it turns out all speculations were correct.

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/1C7EB395-D694-450D-9619-7CA81FE7BD9E_zpsifebkj2k.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/1C7EB395-D694-450D-9619-7CA81FE7BD9E_zpsifebkj2k.jpg.html)

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/33BAA7B3-2A7B-485B-BCD4-2C64CF9172A5_zpskrn3buuh.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/33BAA7B3-2A7B-485B-BCD4-2C64CF9172A5_zpskrn3buuh.jpg.html)

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/D1459962-C8FC-479E-A841-92A81FEC7D2D_zpsi0eikmv0.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/D1459962-C8FC-479E-A841-92A81FEC7D2D_zpsi0eikmv0.jpg.html)

So, now that I found the sound, I need to figure out the best way to deal with it. I feel like I have several options here that I'd like to get opinions on.

Option 1: Double stack head gaskets to gain the extra space needed. I've heard of this being done before, but I need to do more reading as to how often this method causes sealing problems. Also, if I did it this way, which type to use? As I stated in an earlier post, I pulled off an MLS and replaced it with a regular style. I'm wondering what the crushed differences of the two are? If the replacement I installed is thinner once torqued down, I know that is not helping my situation.

Option 2: Take a little material off the piston or out of the combustion chamber. I think this would work fine, but I'm not crazy about it. Especially because I don't know if the valve clearance will be enough to run the big .435" megacycle cam, which is what I'd like to run if possible.

Option 3: Buy a new cylinder or head, or both. This would probably be the proper way but I have mixed feelings about this. The main thing is cost. My cylinder has just been bored, and since everything looks great with it, I hate to throw that money down the tubes. If I did go with a new cylinder, I'd like to snag one off a 200X for the longer cooling fins. I know that would be a good idea. I think the bore was $40 so that isn't the end of the world either.

On the cylinder head I have mixed feelings also. My brother just put the time and effort into porting this head for me. But, with only two ports to do, and the fact that we didn't get wild with it, his time investment isn't huge. Is it true that the 200X came with a larger intake valve? If so, that would draw me to this option a bit. If I keep my original cylinder head, I really should either replace my intake valve or go with an oversized intake valve. You can see in the pictures how far the intake valve is pulled up the head. Not only will this maybe cause me problems later on, it also can't be good for flow.

How do I go about checking the tolerances on the rod bearing? I didn't see anything about it in the service manual I got online from oscarmayer.net but it's probably in there and I missed it. I definitely can't feel any up and down play which I did check before I slapped everything back together. I was concerned about the side to side play that the rod had, though. It seemed like a lot, but I've never dealt with that style rod bearing before. The bottom end sounded smooth before so I said to myself, it must be fine. Looking back, I should've done more due diligence before assembling it, but hindsight is 20/20.

I guess I'll be splitting the cases on this baby anyway. I have an oil seal that has leaked pretty bad whenever the engine is running.

The seal looks damaged like someone tried to replace it but couldn't get it out.

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/62FABBFE-795C-471B-A512-8A65558A1A17_zpsqfsammus.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/62FABBFE-795C-471B-A512-8A65558A1A17_zpsqfsammus.jpg.html)

Where is the best place to buy the HD timing chain and what brand should I be looking for?

Thanks for the help guys. As you can see I'm a newb when it comes to these small engines.

[C-lab]

Oops, after making that long post, I reread shortline's post about using multiple cylinder base baskets to get everything where it needs to be. This is the way to solve my problem. I hadn't even thought of this as a possibility, but that's why I'm here. To learn from those with more knowledge and experience than me. I'm used to working on engines that don't have cylinder jugs separate from the rest of the block. That's why I came up with the solutions above.

[shortline10]

An old school thick copper head gasket and 3-4 base gaskets should get you up to were you need to be .
Btw that's a great price on this gasket kit . You will know when your about right when your compression is about 200-220 .

[C-lab]

Alright, I went ahead and nabbed that gasket set.

Did you get your rocker arms hard faced with the .435" cam? I saw where someone ran the .370" megacycle cam without it just fine. I know I'll need to upgrade the springs.

[shortline10]

Factory rockers IMO don't need to be hard faced . I have put a lot of hours on a 435 lift cam and never seen excessive wear

[barnett468]

ok, i will try to simplify my post somewhat.

200X HEAD

shortliune10 can probably tell you if a 200x head has bigger valves etc . he knows a lot about these


STOCK VS HARD WELDED ROCKERS

I have seen wear on stock rockers with stock cams and stock springs but the hours and oil type were unknown . Hard welded rockers will last longer than stock rockers but as shortline10 implied, stock ones won't wear out "quickly so you can decide if the extra expense is worth it to you . Good oil with high levels of Zinc is a good preventative measure against premature wear . Also changing it fairly frequently and cleaning your air filter frequently will help.


PISTON HITTING CYLINDER HEAD

The angle on the side of the piston crown/dome and the head is approximately 45 degrees . This means that for every .002" you raise the cylinder or head, you will gain around .001" in clearance between the head and the gasket . Since nothing broke and it ran, it is likely that the clearance between the head and the cylinder is very close to 0 as opposed to an interference fit which is a good thing as far as that goes . You should have at least around .015" clearance on the sides of the piston crown to allow for piston rock and rod stretch and piston pin, rod and crank bearing clearances etc . This means that raising the cylinder or head .030" higher than it was with your previous base and head gasket should give the minimum amount of clearance you need.

For long term fixes for problems like this on a 4 stroke, I prefer to use either a metal shim under the cylinder with one base gasket on each side instead of several base gaskets (although you may never have a problem using several base gaskets instead), or a thicker head gasket.


HEAD GASKET THICKNESS

You can call Cometic and ask them if they can make a gasket thick enough for your app so you can use just one base gasket and ask their opinion on doing this since they know their product . They do make different thicknesses for automotive apps and I have often used a thinner one than the stock thickness to help correct excessive quench/squish clearances . There are also some mfg's that can make a copper gasket in the thickness you need however, unless they already have a pattern for your app it can be fairly expensive.


COPPER VS MULTI LAYERED STEEL HEAD GASKETS

An MLS gasket will typically seal better than a copper gasket because they are designed to continue to seal if the compression is so high that it lifts the head slightly, however, they need a fairly smooth finish to seal properly . If your finish is fairly rough like it was surfaced with 80 grit sand paper, you will need to make it smoother which is fairly easy to do and I can post one method for doing this if you want.

COMETIC MLS GASKETS 800-752-9850


CUSTOM COPPER MOTORCYCLE HEAD GASKET MFGS

http://www.coppergaskets.us/MCG.html

http://www.gasketstogo.com/examples.htm



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PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[yaegerb]

They must have taken quite a bit of material off that head unless you got the cylinder decked as well. I trust what shortline is saying, he's the man. If it were me and the cylinder was stock height I would get a used head and start over. I only say that because your are going to be doing a lot of checking and re-checking with clay or squish solder to ensure your UCCR is correct....or I guess you could just run race gas once you prevent the piston from hitting the bowl.

[C-lab]

Thank you barnett468 for the detailed explanation!

yaegerb, thank you for your help as well. You must have missed earlier where I did say they decked the cylinder as well, just to level it, not as an attempt to raise compression. I definitely didn't need that! He said that the cylinder must have gotten very hot at some point because it was warped significantly. Looking back, I should've asked him how many thousandths he removed, but like a dummy I didn't. I am also already running race gas. I figure that during the cold months if the tuning is right I could sneak by on 93. I'm not taking any chances right now.

I did already purchase the gasket kit shortline recommended. I plan on using it. Barnett, do you know where I could get a base gasket shim? I'll go ahead and google it but I'm not sure what my success will be.

Also, since I'll be using the copper, I can measure the thickness when I get it, but I know that isn't really the important part. I need to know what it will crush down to. I'm not sure how to go about this since I think once it's crushed and removed it's junk. I'm also thinking that you're right about there basically being zero tolerance, not an interference fit. I couldn't feel anything strange when pull starting. It ran okay other than the noise that made you cringe. Obviously the oil was clean since this wasn't creating any metal shavings.

So about checking the rod bearing. I don't feel any up and down play, but I didn't have the crank locked in place while I checked it. I'm sure that isn't really a good test. It has enough side to side play that it feels excessive. Bottom end sounded great, but I know that only means so much. I'm going to scan the manual again for the specs on the side play, but I didn't see it listed the first time. I wasn't in search of that before and I probably skipped right over it.

Also, the D.I.D. cam chain looks like a good replacement. Thoughts?

[yaegerb]

Thank you barnett468 for the detailed explanation!

yaegerb, thank you for your help as well. You must have missed earlier where I did say they decked the cylinder as well, just to level it, not as an attempt to raise compression. I definitely didn't need that! He said that the cylinder must have gotten very hot at some point because it was warped significantly. Looking back, I should've asked him how many thousandths he removed, but like a dummy I didn't. I am also already running race gas. I figure that during the cold months if the tuning is right I could sneak by on 93. I'm not taking any chances right now.

I did already purchase the gasket kit shortline recommended. I plan on using it. Barnett, do you know where I could get a base gasket shim? I'll go ahead and google it but I'm not sure what my success will be.

Also, since I'll be using the copper, I can measure the thickness when I get it, but I know that isn't really the important part. I need to know what it will crush down to. I'm not sure how to go about this since I think once it's crushed and removed it's junk. I'm also thinking that you're right about there basically being zero tolerance, not an interference fit. I couldn't feel anything strange when pull starting. It ran okay other than the noise that made you cringe. Obviously the oil was clean since this wasn't creating any metal shavings.

So about checking the rod bearing. I don't feel any up and down play, but I didn't have the crank locked in place while I checked it. I'm sure that isn't really a good test. It has enough side to side play that it feels excessive. Bottom end sounded great, but I know that only means so much. I'm going to scan the manual again for the specs on the side play, but I didn't see it listed the first time. I wasn't in search of that before and I probably skipped right over it.

Also, the D.I.D. cam chain looks like a good replacement. Thoughts?

Gotya, must have missed that. Rotate the crank to TDC and pull up and down. There should be zero play. Stick a feeler gauge at the connecting rod big end. Side to side service limit is .80mm. DID cam chain is what you want.

[barnett468]

.
No prob your welcome . I try to give a bit of tech info as to how things work instead of just telling people to use this or that part because it helps them learn.

As far as the gasket kit goes, I would not use it simply because you already bought it . If cometic can make a thick enough head gasket to raise it up as much as you need I would use one of those instead . The more things you put under the cylinder, the greater the risk of them leaking so if you g that route, I would use a sealer between each piece . Some good ones are gaskacinch, yamabond, black or gray high temp ultra permatex but it needs to be put on thin . if you use gaskacinch, you may have to use a sledge hammer to remove the cylinder next time and an air chisel (or gasket scraper) to remove the gasket.

you can get a shim made at one of the companies i listed below cometic but it too may be pricey.

you can certainly just use more base gaskets as shortline10 mentioned and as i said, it may not leak but that would not be my first choice but it definitely is the fastest and easiest and cheapest.

the did chain is top notch

explaining how to check the rod bearing is nearly useless in my opinion because it is more of an acquired skill so i really don't have a good suggestion for you there.

the copper head gasket will only compress a few thousands at the most and they are reuseable . i have reused them several times on the same engine on my race bikes but i would anneal them after each use . it also meeds a fairly smooth surface to seal properly.

if your compression is over around 190, i would use a spark plug that is 1 step colder than stock.

you dont "need" race gas unless you are racing it . you can buy real lead additive and it may end up costing less depending on the cost of the race gas and how much additive you need.

http://www.wildbillscorvette.com/octanesupreme01a.htm

http://www.wildbillscorvette.com/OctaneSupreme01.htm


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[C-lab]

Ok, I attempted to check the rod bearing. I've put a link to the video below. I assume you're checking for .8mm between the rod and counterweights. I could only fit .4mm feeler gauge in there. The rod will rock side to side and hit those thrust washers as seen in the vid. It has no up and down play. Is this ok?

http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/5D1B3C9F-137F-459C-81B0-AC616B254EB9_zpsx0ujn9ra.mp4.html

[barnett468]

.
The most important clearance on a used crank is the up and down play, not the side to side play and the up and down play is the one that is the most difficult to check . .4mm of clearance on the sides is acceptable.


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[yaegerb]

Ok, I attempted to check the rod bearing. I've put a link to the video below. I assume you're checking for .8mm between the rod and counterweights. I could only fit .4mm feeler gauge in there. The rod will rock side to side and hit those thrust washers as seen in the vid. It has no up and down play. Is this ok?

http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/5D1B3C9F-137F-459C-81B0-AC616B254EB9_zpsx0ujn9ra.mp4.html


Yep, you are good to go.

[C-lab]

I'm going to bump this to the top and let everyone know that within the next two weeks, you should see some updates with pics. Life got crazy and I haven't been working on the trike. I also got a 200X that has taken some of my time with small projects. Thanks again for the help so far.

[C-lab]

Well, life happened and I didn't get back to work on this nearly as quick as I thought. But I've got it mostly back together right now and I have a couple questions for the experts before I go any further.

First, I got the Kibble White upgraded valve springs since I'm upgrading the cam. They came with a package of two thick shims to go underneath and they are the large diameter ones for the outer springs. It didn't have any for the inner. I reused the stock inner and used the thicker outer, without the originals. Was this correct?

Also, after I got the motor reassembled, I noticed this clip. I guess you'd call it a snap ring. I don't remember removing it and I'm wondering if anyone recognizes it from the pic. I disassembled the top end months ago, then split the cases Monday night to replace some oil seals. I'm thinking one of three things. Either I removed when I took off the top end and forgot about it. (I can't remember what the clips look like that retain the wrist pins and this is the only place in the top end I imagine it could go.) Or, I accidentally popped it out from somewhere when I split the cases without realizing it. Or, it's from another project over the last couple months and I've forgotten what it is. Or possibly from one of my brother's projects, but I don't think that is likely.

As I type this I realize that I'm acting like a rookie, even though I'm not. (I am to three wheelers, but not mechanics in general.) I should have been more thorough and then I wouldn't be asking this question. I don't remember doing anything to take the piston loose, which is why I didn't check those clips when I was putting it back together. I'm thinking now that is probably where it goes. If no one responds before I work on it again, I'll tear it down to see.

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/98F9422D-116D-4077-AD57-605966BB661C_zpsrcscrckk.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/98F9422D-116D-4077-AD57-605966BB661C_zpsrcscrckk.jpg.html)

[yaegerb]

That would be the circlip for your piston/wrist pin. Did you put both circlips back in?

[C-lab]

Thanks, yaegerb. Turns out I made myself look like an idiot for nothing. The new piston came with new circlips, of course. This is one of the old ones. The inside lip that would've been exposed has some old oil cooked onto it. I was surprised that I would've made a bonehead move like that, but with the long time in between, I thought it was possible. Man, I'm so glad I don't have to tear this thing right back down. Thanks again for the help.

Also, I looked back and saw the reference you gave me for jets in my TM28 carb. This will be my first time tuning a carb. I've read some resources online for how to go about the tuning and have seen some differences between them. Is there a consensus here on the best way to tune the carb? I'd appreciate where to find that method, if so.

Like as an example, one method started by removing the main jet, leaving the needle clip in the middle position. Then, see if it runs clean to 3/4 throttle and adjust or replace the needle as needed. Then work on getting the pilot right by adjusting the air screw and seeing how the engine responds. Last, you reinstall the main jet and change sizes as needed to correct the rich condition from 3/4 to full throttle that you had with the main out completely.

Does any of that sound like a good approach? Or is it all crazy talk?

[C-lab]

Alright; so I got the motor buttoned up and slapped it in last night. This is the first time trying to run it with the new TM28 carb. I couldn't get it to run which didn't surprise me too much. As all of you know who have run the 12:1 piston, it is a bear to pull. I'm planning to pull it behind my truck tonight and save my arms. I'm questioning wether or not even that will be enough to crank it because I think my pilot jet is way off. I have a 15 pilot and 180 main in my 28mm flat slide. If I remember right, yaegerb is running a 30 pilot and 170 main in his 28mm round slide. I first left all the settings like they were, right out of the box. I flipped up the choke and gave it a try. Then I upped the idle screw a bit, since I didn't know where it was set at. Then I ran the air screw all the way in. It was 2 3/4 turns out. I was hoping that by doing all of this I could get enough fuel in to overcome the tiny 15 pilot jet. It was close to 80 degrees in my shop so it wouldn't hardly need the choke if the carb settings were right. The way I understand how this choke works is it just adds extra fuel instead of shutting off most of the air. I would think that would be enough to get it cranked but I'm a carb and three wheeler newbie. What do you ATC gurus think? Should I just not mess with it till the jets that I ordered come in? Or if I play with it is it likely to roll start just fine?

Here's how she sits right now.

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/D462D07A-E14A-4D68-88BF-B08DE3E54F79_zps6ofz7zj2.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/D462D07A-E14A-4D68-88BF-B08DE3E54F79_zps6ofz7zj2.jpg.html)

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab8/cbcross1225/323C9759-F65B-424C-8CE9-CE3EC0A2D32D_zpsiikb3gav.jpg (http://s844.photobucket.com/user/cbcross1225/media/323C9759-F65B-424C-8CE9-CE3EC0A2D32D_zpsiikb3gav.jpg.html)

[yaegerb]

Is it popping and acting like it wants to start?

[C-lab]

Is it popping and acting like it wants to start?
No sir. I figured out why last night. It seemed harder to pull than before, even once it had the high comp piston in it. It felt like it had a lot of drag, even when it wasn't on the compression stroke. I couldn't get any rpm on it, even though I'm a pretty strong guy.

While I was cleaning out the crankcase after splitting it apart, I let 3 of the tranny gears slide off. I didn't pay attention to the fact that they weren't retained on the shafts. I thought that I put them back in the same order and orientation, but clearly I was wrong. Neutral isn't really neutral anymore. The tires will roll backward but not forward. It will click down to first gear and sometimes second, although those aren't working right either. I think that the tranny gears are creating extra drag. Well, looks like I'll be tearing everything back apart since I'm a goober. Oh well. :(

[C-lab]

Btw, I found the other retainer clip for the wrist pin which confirms that it was just the old one I found.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I was in a hurry to head out to the Hatfield McCoy trails in WV this weekend. Since I didn't get this one going I just took the 200X, which sadly had no rear brakes. The snap ring in the master broke so I rebuilt it but still couldn't get it to work right. Guess I have a long way to go in learning to work on these ATC's.

[350for350]

Don't worry about it much. I know that it's frustrating, but we all have to learn somehow. Look at the bright side, by the time that you get the transmission gears straightened out, your jets will be in and you should be able to start it by hand.