New member with an old ATC200

[Lanix]

Just picked this up today...

https://i.imgur.com/gB2BxAL.jpg?2

I used the VIN decode and got "1983 ATC200" so thats what I'm working with.

Theres a good amount of surface rust on the frame, but nothing appears to be rotted through.
I got 1.5 engines with it: 1 mostly complete (missing recoil starter) and one part of a bottom end from another (original so I was told) engine.
Gas tank has some rust and inside coating is peeling off, only complete sandblasting will tell if it is useable.
Both rear fenders in decent shape, the mounting holes on one are torn a bit. the front fender is...yeah.
Front tire is completely shot, cant even get flat spots out of it. rear tires are still round.

It doesn't look like much, but it will.

[ATC King]

It looks like the seat pan is in good condition. That's a biggie. That and a good frame means you've got something to work with. Should be a fun project.

[Lanix]

It looks like the seat pan is in good condition. That's a biggie. That and a good frame means you've got something to work with. Should be a fun project.

Thanks,
Seems like someone repaired the seat pan sometime in the past, theres some painted over rust holes on the bottom and theres a piece of metal riveted in place on top. still feels solid though.
In fact, that leads me into a question: does the foam sit directly on top of that? Or is there another layer between the foam and the metal?

[350for350]

I'm pretty sure that the foam sits directly on top of the pan.

[ATC King]

Doh! I missed that patch panel on the seat pan. Still, if some new foam and a cover can directly go on it, you're ahead of the game. May need to use rivets if the seat cover tabs are mostly gone.

The foam goes directly on the pan.


eBay has some foam/cover kits on it for <$100. It's hard to tell if some of them actually fit the ATC200, which has a different seat pan than some of the other ATC200s. I seen one listing that specifically said it was for the ATC200, but it could be incorrect.

I think the ATC200 (no letter afterwards) was the first big tired ATC (25x12x9) and a precursor to the Big Red. The other ATC200s, like the 200ES use a plastic seat pan. You may want some more input on what foam fits or to do some more research. For certain, ATC200S foam and cover won't fit correctly.

[Lanix]

Doh! I missed that patch panel on the seat pan. Still, if some new foam and a cover can directly go on it, you're ahead of the game. May need to use rivets if the seat cover tabs are mostly gone.

The foam goes directly on the pan.


eBay has some foam/cover kits on it for <$100. It's hard to tell if some of them actually fit the ATC200, which has a different seat pan than some of the other ATC200s. I seen one listing that specifically said it was for the ATC200, but it could be incorrect.

I think the ATC200 (no letter afterwards) was the first big tired ATC (25x12x9) and a precursor to the Big Red. The other ATC200s, like the 200ES use a plastic seat pan. You may want some more input on what foam fits or to do some more research. For certain, ATC200S foam and cover won't fit correctly.

Thanks again for the info,

Yea, I was looking at the foam/cover stuff on ebay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/81-83-Honda-ATC200-Saddlemen-Replacement-Seat-Foam-and-Cover-Kit-Black-XM111/372456787110?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.S EED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D12565 aec7b544431b2131f3e131f006c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D 1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D372456787110%26it m%3D372456787110&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A8764834f-49f4-11e9-a909-74dbd180cbe9%7Cparentrq%3A93edaac61690a9920157e35d ffffaee4%7Ciid%3A1). This is why I was wondering if there was another piece to the sandwich.

Just took another look at the seat pan, looks like all but 1 of the tabs are still in good shape, and the 1 is just bent over, might be able to just bend it back.

[86125m]

The foam sits right on top of the seat pan. sometimes I use a little spray adhesive to attach the pan to the foam.

[350for350]

I think the ATC200 (no letter afterwards) was the first big tired ATC (25x12x9) and a precursor to the Big Red.

Actually, it was the 1980 ATC185. The ATC200 came out in 1981 and was basically the same machine only with the larger engine.

[keister]

Front tire is completely shot, cant even get flat spots out of it.

That's because it is the original.

[Lanix]

That's because it is the original.

Haha. That would explain it.

[ArizonaATC]

Throw a lifan 200cc in there

[Lanix]

I found another one. What have I done now?
85' 125m...it even runs.
That being said. it runs on full choke only.
I attempted fiddling with the carb (which is new) a bit, and was unable to improve it, maybe I didnt fiddle enough?

In addition. it needs a new shift-shaft. the one in there has almost no spline left on it.
No gas tank (yet), just got the temporary one that came with it

And im afraid to touch the front wheel. looks like it is rusted pretty good.
https://i.imgur.com/HselGia.jpg?1
Unfortunately the seat pan on this one was not as lucky as the other one.
https://i.imgur.com/ctGRpo8.jpg?1

[350for350]

Those New Chinese carbs are a shot in the dark at best. Some say that they've had them run great right from the box. Others say that they can mess with them and get them to run good. Others say that they've had nothing but bad luck with them and throw them away. I'd guess that it's running lean. Jet sizes can vary greatly with these carbs too, no matter what number is on them. That's why I only use OEM carbs. I say "they're not expensive, they're just worth it".

[ATC King]

I wouldn't feel bad about parting out that 125M. That's a parts trike for sure.



I wonder how much trouble it was to get those rear tires to seat, considering they look a couple inches too narrow for the wheels.



As far as how it runs, check the valves. Sometimes, running on choke only, is because the valves are too tight (haven't been checked in decades). Any new (to me) machine, gets a thorough going over before any troubleshooting. That means a full service and pretty much flipping it on the back to look underneath. I've found a lot of problems by simply hand washing machines. A thorough hand washing means you're laying hands on just about every part, for an extended amount of time, while not specifically thinking about one problem (tunnel vision).

[Lanix]

I wouldn't feel bad about parting out that 125M. That's a parts trike for sure.



I wonder how much trouble it was to get those rear tires to seat, considering they look a couple inches too narrow for the wheels.



As far as how it runs, check the valves. Sometimes, running on choke only, is because the valves are too tight (haven't been checked in decades). Any new (to me) machine, gets a thorough going over before any troubleshooting. That means a full service and pretty much flipping it on the back to look underneath. I've found a lot of problems by simply hand washing machines. A thorough hand washing means you're laying hands on just about every part, for an extended amount of time, while not specifically thinking about one problem (tunnel vision).

I handnt thought about the valves, I will give them a once over.

I will have to see what I find before I can convince myself its not worth saving.

[Jd110]

I handnt thought about the valves, I will give them a once over.

I will have to see what I find before I can convince myself its not worth saving.
Welcome and good luck with your new trikes. I wouldn’t mind a 125, at all.

[Lanix]

I checked the valves, intake was good, tightened up the exhaust a bit.
I also confirmed the fuel is flowing good to the carburetor. checked the plug/spark which seems to be fine.
I did slap a cheap air filter on it, which made almost no improvement.
I got another carburetor on the way, hopefully, China will pull through on this one.

If anyone is wondering. the tires on the back are 16x6.5x8 :) If i get this thing running and driving again, I will be sure to put the correct size tire on there.

[Lanix]

New Carburetor didnt help much. I got it to idle without choking it, but any gas would make it stall. no adjustments would help. I ordered an oem airbox for it, which, based on research, is why its too lean.

[Gabriel]

Good.
Any attempt at getting the carb jetted and adjusted right without the factory airbox is difficult at best...doable but hardly worth the effort.

[Lanix]

I got the airbox today and messed around with it some more. No change in symptoms. I got it to idle fine (maybe a bit slow) but once I give it ANY throttle it will stutter and die. I checked for intake leaks by spraying starter fluid around the joints, and heard no change in the engine noise.
If I choke it just right, I am able to rev it, however it will smoke from the exhaust when revved up. I would like to believe that the rings are good because I tested it at ~150psi of compression, which I believe is right below the minimum spec by the manual, but would it cause these issues?

EDIT:
I finally dug a little deeper, since I had a carburetor that wasnt on the trike, I went ahead and ripped it apart, Slow jet is marked 32 , Main Jet marked 78. Both of these are smaller than what the service manual says, But they are also not in an OEM carburetor, so there could be some difference there.

[Lanix]

Alright, Im getting back on topic here.

I got it mostly disassembled which only took a couple of hours, all i had to do was stop buying more trikes....
Rear axle and front axle are still together for now. But the frame and Tree are pretty much ready to be blasted and coated except for maybe a quick wash.

https://i.imgur.com/pLh7reW.jpg?1

On a side note. I got the 'right' size jets for the 125m and it still didnt seem to make any improvement. But when I put the actual gas tank on, and not the hanging bottle, I could finally get it to rev up like it should. Somehow I guess that bottle was not flowing good enough, Still not quite right though. Ill probably end up parting it out like ATC King suggested, still not sure though.

[Lanix]

The frame and tree are at the powdercoaters.
The front and rear axles are now disassembled...what a pain that was.
I will post pictures of the disassembly later.



I was going to start to order parts, and was curious what you guys thought of the water-grooved brake shoes (Hi-Caliber brand) vs. another non-grooved brake shoe. Do the grooves help, does this affect braking performance during dry use?

[Sabrina]

You have your work cut out for you on this one. Good luck!

[PRJ]

If you replace the carburetor on the 200 let me know what works best for you! I bought one kei-hin carburetor off amazon for around $30 that worked awesome except for inside the carb where the throttle slide goes, was missing the little guide pin that comes with the factory carburetor. This caused the throttle to become stuck wide open sometimes.

[Lanix]

If you replace the carburetor on the 200 let me know what works best for you! I bought one kei-hin carburetor off amazon for around $30 that worked awesome except for inside the carb where the throttle slide goes, was missing the little guide pin that comes with the factory carburetor. This caused the throttle to become stuck wide open sometimes.

I didn't get a carburetor with this, so when I get that far, I will watch out for that.

[Lanix]

Got the frame and tree back from the powdercoater today.
You know what that means... Pictures!
https://i.imgur.com/PtW2Ygd.jpg?2
https://i.imgur.com/2grT6G0.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/WQUh9Hj.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/qaZhbcK.jpg?1

These are all of the parts that have been cleaned up so far.
Now with the frame back I can do some reassembly, and figure out what to do next.

I'm going to try the mudlite out on the front, wanted to do something a little different.

I opted to not rebuild the forks right now (although I did polish them), they both feel pretty good and are in decent enough shape, I will get to it later.

The gas tank is killing me, a few rust holes and the poorly applied tank liner someone put in there has got me considering a replacement.

[ps2fixer]

If you need more parts, shoot me a PM. I have two, 84 and a 85 for parts. Both engines claimed to run when I got them, but both has the shifter ratchet problem where the boss is broken off the center case half. I was going to assemble for my younger sister, but she's too old and doesn't have as much interest in atvs any more. Some parts I'm keeping for possible reproduction, but one was painted for hunting and is in ok shape, the other is in pretty good shape.

I also have an 81 or 82 ATC185S, but it's missing a ton of stuff, engine didn't run but still have it. I'm guessing it had valve/top end problems, but didn't dig into it very far. No fenders/tank for the 185, would have to dig but I think I have the axle and such for it yet.

Anyway, good luck with your build. Personally I would have probably fixed the 200 and parted out the 125M, but it's hard to judge just how good/bad something is from camera photos. I'd defo suggest checking the shift system on the 125m to be sure it doesn't have problems besides the splines (I should have a good shift shaft).

[Lanix]

If you need more parts, shoot me a PM. I have two, 84 and a 85 for parts. Both engines claimed to run when I got them, but both has the shifter ratchet problem where the boss is broken off the center case half. I was going to assemble for my younger sister, but she's too old and doesn't have as much interest in atvs any more. Some parts I'm keeping for possible reproduction, but one was painted for hunting and is in ok shape, the other is in pretty good shape.

I also have an 81 or 82 ATC185S, but it's missing a ton of stuff, engine didn't run but still have it. I'm guessing it had valve/top end problems, but didn't dig into it very far. No fenders/tank for the 185, would have to dig but I think I have the axle and such for it yet.

Anyway, good luck with your build. Personally I would have probably fixed the 200 and parted out the 125M, but it's hard to judge just how good/bad something is from camera photos. I'd defo suggest checking the shift system on the 125m to be sure it doesn't have problems besides the splines (I should have a good shift shaft).

I will send a PM.

Also, I may still end up parting out the 125, I did not see anything broken when I had the cover off, although the shift drum stopper was slightly bent, and not where it should have been, but It wasnt broken and i was able to put it back.

[ps2fixer]

Sounds good.

Here's a couple of photos of the common problem with the shifter. The other issue that's common is the tip of the ratchet breaks off, but that's a lot easier to fix/replace. Not my photos, just a quick google result.

https://i.gyazo.com/beea3d5a0162d00c50c3027cfc221cf2.png
https://i.gyazo.com/f626dbae33992f6764f9e0b32aa8995b.jpg

[Lanix]

Seat pan, i cut out the worst part of the center and put some new metal in there, coated it with POR-15 and new foam+cover finished it off. Still have to put the latch and rubber pieces back on, but it came out good I think, despite my ugly welds and lazy paint job.
https://i.imgur.com/7RaPn7b.jpg?1

And I also did some other stuff, its getting close:
https://i.imgur.com/vSjkq8f.jpg?1

Still waiting on electrical components, and I have a few more pieces to put back on.
Going to have to put new wheels on the back sometime, at least one, if not both, of the rims are shot, but I'm using them for now to save money :)

Also a question, has anyone mounted a newer style honda thumb throttle like the one from this ebay listing (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-Honda-300-Fourtrax-4x4-Thumb-Throttle-And-Cable/283481504210?hash=item4200d079d2%3Ag%3ASJgAAOSwbaZ c1vmT&LH_ItemCondition=3000)? If so what cable did you use? I wasnt able to find any solid info on this.

[ps2fixer]

Seat pan/seat came out pretty good. Who cares what the welds are like as long as it holds together for your needs, you can't see them when installed anyway.

Can't really comment on the throttle swap, but I'd be interested in hearing other's experiences on it though. I'm kind of guessing new and old style uses the same basic dimensions for the cable, so maybe OEM would work? I'd be temped to take some measurements on my 350x throttle vs a 200es to see how much different they are if I could get to my house and measure them myself.

[Lanix]

Seat pan/seat came out pretty good. Who cares what the welds are like as long as it holds together for your needs, you can't see them when installed anyway.

My saving grace :)


Can't really comment on the throttle swap, but I'd be interested in hearing other's experiences on it though. I'm kind of guessing new and old style uses the same basic dimensions for the cable, so maybe OEM would work? I'd be temped to take some measurements on my 350x throttle vs a 200es to see how much different they are if I could get to my house and measure them myself.
Cable will be different at the throttle side, it screws in the thumb throttle side on the newer one. I tried it with my '03 recon's throttle but the cable was a few inches too long. Not sure what other hondas would have a shorter cable, my experience is somewhat limited

[ps2fixer]

Ahh I see what you mean. The 350x screws into the thumb throttle housing too. I was thinking more of the actual cable end differences but yea that difference kind of effects things a lot lol.

Normally I scan though ebay listings to see what parts might fit since you have a pretty good idea what it should look like. If you find a possible match, send a message to a few sellers to see if they would measure the length for you (lower feedback normally responds better with that info).

I know custom cables are a thing, but I don't know where or what details you'd need to get one made correctly.

[Lanix]

Well I got it running today. Spliced together the remains of my wiring harness with one from another atv so I could plug an on-hand CDI In until I get the new stuff...
No smoke, but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fszKYvZzcMw&feature=youtu.be
Had some issues taking off the CDI cover *cough*.. any ideas what that noise is? timing chain or something else?
Also it doesnt seem to want to go into neutral, looks like I will have to tear into the engine after all.


EDIT: I checked it again. looks like one of the springs on the timing advancer broke...don't know how I missed that. oh well

[ps2fixer]

Here's my listing for the Honda replacement springs from a newer model machine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Pair-of-Spark-Advancer-Springs-for-Pulse-Generator-on-125-185-200-Honda/201737940132?epid=1733026299&hash=item2ef884aca4:g:ndcAAOSwa-dWsCAo

If it's ticking pretty bad after the springs are installed, you might need a timing chain. There's instructions on how to tighten it up in the service manual, basically loosen the nut on the crank case to let it move and tighten back up. Once the chain wears too much it will run out of range to tighten it more and the chain has to be replaced.

For the harness stuff, I do make new replacement harnesses. For the ATC200/ATC200S models I charge about $75. I'll be a little slow getting it done if you want me to make one though because I just had surgery.

Besides the ticking, sounds like the engine is running pretty healthy.

[Lanix]

Here's my listing for the Honda replacement springs from a newer model machine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Pair-of-Spark-Advancer-Springs-for-Pulse-Generator-on-125-185-200-Honda/201737940132?epid=1733026299&hash=item2ef884aca4:g:ndcAAOSwa-dWsCAo

If it's ticking pretty bad after the springs are installed, you might need a timing chain. There's instructions on how to tighten it up in the service manual, basically loosen the nut on the crank case to let it move and tighten back up. Once the chain wears too much it will run out of range to tighten it more and the chain has to be replaced.

For the harness stuff, I do make new replacement harnesses. For the ATC200/ATC200S models I charge about $75. I'll be a little slow getting it done if you want me to make one though because I just had surgery.

Besides the ticking, sounds like the engine is running pretty healthy.

Already ordered the springs. And we already discussed the harness :)

[ps2fixer]

Ahh ok, I'm just loosing my mind, don't mind me lol.

[Lanix]

Replaced the springs and it made all the difference, with the 1 broken and 1 worn out spring it could barely move itself, now it runs great, shifts good, rides even better. still needs a few things, but is in a good place for the moment.

[Mullet_Man]

Being just a atc 200 and not a e es or m means it's a plainjain motor and is Lighter it is one of the faster 200 models

[ps2fixer]

Being just a atc 200 and not a e es or m means it's a plainjain motor and is Lighter it is one of the faster 200 models

Are you claiming the atc200 has more hp than the E,ES,M or just saying the drive system is more efficient. I doubt there's a major difference between chain drive vs chain drive with a transfer case (200M & 200E), shaft drive eats up a bit of power (200ES), but I think it's 10% or less.

According to the write up linked below, the numbers they use was about 16% losses in the whole drive line (including transmission). I think typically cars are stated to have 20% losses overall so seems pretty accurate. Here's the break down of their numbers since all the machines will have basically the same transmission losses since they are nearly the same engine besides the output of the trans.

Transmission efficiency: 94.1% (5.9% loss)
Driveshaft efficiency: 98% (2% loss)
Differential efficiency: 93.1% (6.9% loss)
CV Axle efficiency: 98% (2% loss) - 3 wheelers don't have this loss since it's a solid shaft direct to the hubs/rims/tires.

I've read chain drive (front to rear sprocket) is about 99% efficient if in good shape and lubricated.

Overall, losses using those numbers would be 85.9% efficient (14.1% losses) vs 93.2% efficient (6.8% losses), which means there's about double the losses in shaft drive vs chain drive.

Using the 82-83 ATC200E Honda service manual, it states the peak hp is 13hp @ 7000 rpm which I'm pretty sure is crank HP, not after drive line losses.

Based on this math, it would mean shaft drive is about 11.17WHP while chain drive is 12.12WHP. I've never done the math before (stealing automotive numbers from the page below), but about 7% different in power isn't game changing or anything in my book. Throw a 350x engine in the frame and you double the hp ~27hp =).

Of course weight is a factor in speed and such, I wonder what kind of like 0-40mph times the different machines have stock vs stock.

https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/drivetrain/transmissions/drivetrain-losses-efficiency/


@Lanix, yep those springs are pretty critical on a good running engines. The wrong ignition timing makes the best shape engines run horrible. I bought a Toyota Camry that some backyard mechanic did the timing belt job, my dad drove it home while I followed and it had no power at all for going up hills, but it cruised just fine. Found the timing to be about 30 degrees off and somehow the ECU was able to make it run and run fairly smooth. That's mechanical timing btw (cam vs crank). Car ran so much better after doing the job the right way.

[350for350]

I believe that all of the auto clutch 200 models were rated at the same 13 HP. Maybe that changed in the later models though (like 86 & 87).

[Mullet_Man]

It's not that the shaft drive models have less power they are just slower then the chain driven because a heavier drive system takes a lot more time and energy to build inertia on a long enough flat stretch all the 200s should be somewhat close

[ps2fixer]

I see, I thought that was what you was getting at. I was wondering about the actual numbers so I went the extra mile even though it's not *real* numbers, just ones that link used.