85 250es, new clutch plates, wants to lurch forward when shifting into 1st

[Jwilloug]

So I have this barn find Honda ATC 250es Big Red. Cleaning up fuel system, new carb, fresh fluids and air filter resulted in easy start and a well running engine. However, it was hard to shift through the first few gears. It would shift, but “clunk”. Scary.

Motorcycle mechanic suggested that since it had been sitting for 5 years, to try while riding around “feathering” the shifter to rough up the clutch friction plates. That felt like it helped a little but certainly not enough. Next he suggested replacing the clutch friction plates. I did and also replaced the one way bearing in the centrifugal clutch and put on new cer clips. Not finding an appropriate clutch puller I used an air impact to disassemble and reassemble, thusly torquing was by guess. Filled with appropriate ATV oil for wet clutches, adjusted the external clutch adjustment screw on the side of the case per manual directions then ready for test drive. First impression when I pulled up the shifter from neutral to 1st gear it lurched forward and died. Subsequent attempts same results. Noted that if after I pulled up on the shifter to get it in gear, and I slowly lowered it back down, it would roll forward and not die. After that, the shifting through up and down gears easy cheesy and no “clunk” like my original problem.

I rode it around today for about an hour shifting up and down, stopping, starting using my slow feathering of the shifter from neutral to 1st gear. However it never improved and still wanted to lurch from neutral to 1st. But again, at least no "clunk" sound.
Soooo this very green rookie three wheeler mechanic is looking to you folks for insights and possible suggestions on where I go from here.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!! =)
-Jon

[shortline10]

Your issue is definitely with the idler clutch setup .
Sounds like you installed the idler one way bearing backwards or theirs an issue with the idle clutch shoes .
By having to push the main clutch down with the shifter your just releasing it so it will free wheel .

[Jwilloug]

ok thanks! I was pretty sure i installed it correctly as it was marked which side was outside, but at this point I need to open it back up so I might as well get to it! lol!!

[ps2fixer]

Simple way to tell if the one way bearing was installed right. Put the machine in first gear, which way can you roll it? I'd have to check on my big red but pretty sure 1st gear should allow the machine to roll forward.

I assume there wasn't any problems with the shifting before replacing the clutch fibers, like lurching forward, can't stop in gear etc?

The primary clutch basically is the clutch for stopping in gear, and taking off from a dead stop. The secondary clutch that uses the fiber disks is to clutch for gear shifts, effectively the same thing as a manual sports quad setup, but your food does the clutch and gear shift at the same time.

[Jwilloug]

Simple way to tell if the one way bearing was installed right. Put the machine in first gear, which way can you roll it? I'd have to check on my big red but pretty sure 1st gear should allow the machine to roll forward.

I assume there wasn't any problems with the shifting before replacing the clutch fibers, like lurching forward, can't stop in gear etc?

The primary clutch basically is the clutch for stopping in gear, and taking off from a dead stop. The secondary clutch that uses the fiber disks is to clutch for gear shifts, effectively the same thing as a manual sports quad setup, but your food does the clutch and gear shift at the same time.

Thanks for the reply!!

So the reason I replaced the friction plate stack is because it was hard to shift 1-3 gears up and down. It would "clunk" in gear, not smoothly (this machine was sitting 5+ years).
After replacing the plates (the new plates came with a one way bearing for free - so I put it in the, what you are calling the primary clutch, as it seamed like the logical thing to do). Anyway, after reassemble and adding fresh UTV oil for wet clutches, I started it up and shifted it into 1st gear. It lurched and died. I did not have this problem originally or not able to stop in gear. However after I get going I do note that shifting up and down gears is pretty darn smooth now. I just ran out and put in in gear like you suggested and it does indeed roll forward, but it will not roll backward. So again, it shifts smoothly through gears with no clunk, but shifting into first from neutral it tried to take off and will die, unless i slowly let the shifter down after pulling it up to go into first. Also I cannot roll to a stop with out it dying..

[shortline10]

If you put it in gear and can roll the Atc freely forward and then push it backwards and it turns the motor over then you definitely have the one way bearing installed backwards .

[Jwilloug]

If you put it in gear and can roll the Atc freely forward and then push it backwards and it turns the motor over then you definitely have the one way bearing installed backwards .

OK i just went out and tried it again. Putting it in first it rolls forward easily, I can hear whirling inside the case. I could not push it backwards (tires just slid on the concrete) until I shifted it into 4th or 5th. I could just barely make the wheels roll and could hear what sounded like the engine turning over. Guess I need to drain my oil and open my case again! I will flip that one way bearing around, reassemble and try again. Boy I sure hope it was just my stupid mistake!!

[shortline10]

Lesson learned , always check the rotation of the one way bearing before removing the old one , also generic aftermarket bearings could be labeled wrong or the bearing parts installed backwards which if fairly common .

[Jwilloug]

Lesson learned , always check the rotation of the one way bearing before removing the old one , also generic aftermarket bearings could be labeled wrong or the bearing parts installed backwards which if fairly common .

Understood and thanks again! I hope to report back soon!! =)

[Jwilloug]

Lesson learned , always check the rotation of the one way bearing before removing the old one , also generic aftermarket bearings could be labeled wrong or the bearing parts installed backwards which if fairly common .

OK so good news! I opened it up, and I had put the bearing in with the marking that said 'outside" facing what I thought to be the outside. I flipped it around assuming from what you said it was mis-marked and reassembled the primary clutch, put it in gear and it now will not roll forward easily, but it does free wheel pushing it backwards; so just the opposite of what it was doing.

I ran out of time tonight to complete the reassemble but should be able to finish tomorrow and final test.

Man you guys are awesome!! It is getting warmer out and I am excited to go ride!! =)

I will post the final verdict when I get it all buttoned back up.

THANKS AGAIN!

[ps2fixer]

Another thing to mention is the bearing surfaces need to be smooth. I've had a couple machines where the surfaces were ate up real bad. I didn't end up fixing the engines to use, so not sure how new one way bearings would respond.

You'll probably need to go though the process of adjusting the shifter clutch bolt again if it's slipping while in gear, sounds like it's too tight.

On a correctly working machine, you should be able to shift from neutral up into first, hold the shifter up and not move at all even when giving it gas. Once you let the shifter go to it's normal spot, the machine should want to move on it's own slightly depending how good your idle is set (higher rpm the more lurch it will give). Once it's fully in gear, it shouldn't slip at all. I wheelie my 250es and 250sx all the time by shifting into 2nd gear and using the shifter clutch while having the engine rpm up a bit. Probably not the healthiest thing for the transmission/machine, but my 200es never had any problems and it did it all the time on that machine and had a blast.

[Jwilloug]

Another thing to mention is the bearing surfaces need to be smooth. I've had a couple machines where the surfaces were ate up real bad. I didn't end up fixing the engines to use, so not sure how new one way bearings would respond.

You'll probably need to go though the process of adjusting the shifter clutch bolt again if it's slipping while in gear, sounds like it's too tight.

On a correctly working machine, you should be able to shift from neutral up into first, hold the shifter up and not move at all even when giving it gas. Once you let the shifter go to it's normal spot, the machine should want to move on it's own slightly depending how good your idle is set (higher rpm the more lurch it will give). Once it's fully in gear, it shouldn't slip at all. I wheelie my 250es and 250sx all the time by shifting into 2nd gear and using the shifter clutch while having the engine rpm up a bit. Probably not the healthiest thing for the transmission/machine, but my 200es never had any problems and it did it all the time on that machine and had a blast.

Got it and thank you!! I hope to finish up and test tonight or tomorrow. This forum is invaluable!!!!

[Jwilloug]

Hi all, buttoned up, adjusted the clutch bolt adjuster screw on the side of the case to what the manual said and went for a test ride. Original issues of difficulty shifting still fixed, issue I created with the cheap Chinese one way bearing in now fixed by flipping it around. Yay! New issue a few times while throttling down from first or second I felt a clunk and one time engine died as it felt like something grabbed. The next two times clunk and the grab was less but it has me spooked. Again starting off, rolling to a stop and taking off and shifting through gears is now fine. But this appears to be a new issue. I just got on line and ordered Honda OEM one way bearing from Babbits. Figured it is best not not have that "free" mis-marked one way in my trike. I will also double check the surface that bearing fits into when I replace it but if remember it being smooth.

Your thoughts?

[shortline10]

Yes replace that China idler bearing and see if the issue goes away . These machines are know for hard jerky shifting and if you read up on the shift mech issues all that shift linkage is fragile . Lots of threads on it .

[ps2fixer]

If I recall correctly, when you let off the gas or down shift, you should get a lot of engine braking which uses the one way bearing. If it free wheels like it's in neutral it might be slipping. Does your kick starter work fine every time (hot & cold)?

The engine stalling from slowing down in gear seems to suggest the one way bearing is still causing problems. Not sure if it would wear in with time or what, but the new OEM one ideally should fix the problem. FYI, the left side under the flywheel is another one way bearing, but it's only for the electric start to run though and free wheels while it's running. I suspect the bearing you got might be for that side, but being sold for the right side which would make the markings on it reversed. If I'm thinking right, the bearings work on both sides, just the direction has to be correct. That one way bearing is the most common issue that I know of with the 250es/sx. There's a couple small shifter problems (bolt comes loose and shifter doesn't return, etc), but nothing too major.

[Jwilloug]

ok thanks again guys! I have never event tried the kick starter as I have been enjoying the luxury of the electric start. ;) I may go try it and see how it behaves. Ill have the new bearing in about a week.

Thanks and have a great week!!!

[Jwilloug]

All, thanks again for your help!! I put in the new OEM one way bearing and all is good! The original issue and the issue I caused, I believe are now fixed! While I have only put about an hour on it, the issues I experienced before would manifest them selves almost immediately. I think I am good to go now!

Current project i have a 82 185s I have taken down to the frame to refurbish (not restore, it will be a runner). Cleaning, fixing, replacing parts as needed, rattle can painted the frame and am reassembling. I am about ready to rebuild the top end next. I have replaced rear end bearings, brakes, cables, tires, seat cover, carb, air filter, front end wheel bearings, steering bearing, electrolized and painted the exhaust, Wish me luck as I have never done an engine rebuild before! =)

[Jd110]

Looking good and good luck on the rebuilding.


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