09 750 Brute force wont start

[dustrunner]

only 308 miles, ran great last winter, got salt on it so I washed it off and drove it to the shed, next day loaded it up and took to car wash and cleaned it better, then rode it to the shed. belt lite came on the day of my ride buy meh, 2 months later it wouldn't start = took the wire under the seat that you use to clear the belt lite and did that, still wont start = bought a couple used fuel relays but still cant get it to start,, Any ideas please ?:wondering

[Gabriel]

Got spark?

[dustrunner]

yes, doesn't appear to be getting power to the fuel pump as I bought a new one with no success. also bought some used fuel pump relays . but still no work. wtf

[oldskool83]

Check fuel filter..my kfx700 crushed one due to todays cirn fuel. $10 fix mine didn't start either one day.

[dustrunner]

I cant get 1 fuel pump relay to click, switch it out with another place on harness and it works . Filter looks good tho.

[ps2fixer]

Do you happen to know were a wire diagram is or a link to the service manual? No clue who makes the brute etc.

A google search netted this result, I don't see a fuel pump in it, so maybe it's the wrong model? It's for a KZ750.

http://www.classiccycles.org/media/DIR_1653304/DIR_1667004/40841264b60c8a9fffff84f8ffffe41e.jpg

If I was there, I'd dig out the multi-meter and check if you have power at the relay, normally two wires are to power the relay switching action, and the other two pass though a connection. If you don't have power at the relay, then it's likely a fuse, wiring issue, safety system disabling it, bad switch somewhere in the circuit (maybe ignition switch?). I do better with the Honda models since wire colors generally don't change for the same connection etc, for the Kawa, you kind of need a wire diagram to follow the circuit. Not sure, but does this machine have an ECU/Computer that controls the fuel pump? If so, there's probably a stipulation on when it gives power to it and such (like at crank, and when it senses it's running).

[shortline10]

Kvf750
Electric fuel injection and their a PITA , fuel pumps are common to go bad , not sure if you’ll here a relay but you should here the fuel pump motor pressurizing when you first turn the key on .

[ps2fixer]

Found the service manual.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120904103546/http://www.naturalatv.com/manuals/KVF750_08-09_Manual.pdf

Page 74 seems to have the wire diagram I was looking for.

It looks like the ECU controls the fuel pump. Here's what should be connected together per wire (ignition switch on, run/off switch to run, etc)

Here's the two wires that makes the relay turn on
Fuel Pump relay Yellow/Red -> Run/Off switch Yellow/Red -> Ignition Switch Brown -> ECU Pin 8 White (it branches out to several parts, so thinking this should be the ground side)
Fuel Pump relay Brown/Yellow -> ECU Pin 30 Brown/Yellow (Since it's a direct run, I'd assume this pin should have battery power)

These are the two wires that get connected together when the relay is activated.

Fuel Pump relay White/Red -> Fuel Pump & Main Fuse White/Red. (This should be the positive wire for the fuel pump)
Fuel Pump relay White/Green -> Fuel Pump Fuse White/Green

For testing, I'd check for voltage between the Yellow/Red and Brown/Yellow wires at the fuel pump relay to make sure the relay is getting power. If not, trace each wire in the ohm setting to see where connection is lost (don't forget to test the fuses).

If the relay is working, then I'd switch to testing for power at the fuel pump, if it's getting power but not running, the fuel pump motor is bad.

[dustrunner]

im not good with electrical , if I short something out will it ruin things or will the fuses save me ?

[ps2fixer]

Normally fuses are going to protect the parts unless someone got in there bypassing fuses and such, kind of doubt that with a 2009 machine though.

As long as you have a basic understanding of how a multi meter works, you shouldn't have any issues, just have to be careful not to ground something to the frame or to other terminals. I suspect most plugs are shielded well so shorting out something is hard to do.

Here's a video to cover the basics of a multi meter, the circuit board stuff you can pretty much ignore unless you plan to get more into electronics. The amp readings can be handy, but I don't find my self measuring current often. The biggest two things you need to grasp is how to read voltage (DC in this case), and ohms, or resistance and the continuity test is just an ohm test with a beep/buzzer to let you know when it's near 0 ohms, or dead short. The multi meter stuff isn't too complex to learn, but the circuit board stuff that surrounds it can get complex fast, we are just looking at simple wires though and testing for yes/no for power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3OyQ3HwfU

[dustrunner]

259420 At this setting I am getting nothing @ the white/red port, .86 @ the brown/yellow port, .90 @ the yellow/red port , and .60 @ the green/white port with key on. also noted the relay clicks when they is turned on.

[ps2fixer]

Hmm, that setting is 20v max DC, so should be correct for testing power. How did you hook up the leads, there's two main routes, put the ground lead on a known good ground like engine or neg battery terminal, and probe with the red lead like a test light, or test between the two wires to see what the relay sees.

I thought you couldn't hear the relay kick, since you can hear it click, it should be getting power to the relay.

0.x volts doesn't make much sense though, you should be seeing around battery voltage, like 11-13v.

Not sure how hard it would be to get to, but if you could get a reading across the white/green and white/red wires at the fuel pump, that would be interesting to see. Reasion I say to test between the two wires at the pump instead of the one on neg battery terminal route is because things can be switched on the ground side too. Like on a 200es the neutral safety is how the starter solenoid gets grounded to be able to kick on and make the starter run.

[dustrunner]

i just touched the red probe to the wires. before I did that I tested them with a lite and the only one that lit up was the red/yellow port. I had to unhook the connectors from the plastic under seat pan so I was not sure which relay was which so i assumed the one that didn't click was the fuel relay and my problem but after swapping them out with no change i thought the pump was bad . but after putting a new cheap pump in and that did nothing either i am stumped.

[ps2fixer]

I see, yea you have to have both probes connected to the circuit to take any readings, it can get some readings, can't remember what it's called, but I'm pretty sure it's like the wireless power Nikola Tesla was working with. A good start to getting the feel for the multi meter is taking a reading of the battery voltage, same setup as the video used on the 9v, just you'd expect around 12v.

Anyway, if I'm following along right, you had power at the yellow red wire at the fuel relay (with it disconnected and reading the pins it connects to). Makes sense since you hear the relay kick on. The switch side of the relay (white/red and white/green). Sounds like since you've already swapped out the pump that the pump isn't receiving power. The power source on that side of the circuit is from the battery. Basically it runs though the main fuse (30 amp), then through the fuel pump fuse (10 amp), then heads to the fuel pump relay, then to the fuel pump. The relay is basically just a on/off switch, so since you didn't see power at the connector, I'm pretty confident you have a blown fuse.

To electrically test the fuses, you pull them out, and use the ohm setting to take a resistance test across the two terminals. It should read near 0 ohms (dead short). If it's a high reading (rare), or no reading at all, the fuse is bad. Generally you can also see the fuse burnt out, similar to how a burnt light bulb looks.

Appears the fuse box is under the seat, here's a spot in the service manual that shows a photo of it (item C)

https://i.gyazo.com/b30eed25073797d8d4b1e8bd33aed521.png




Also here's the section on fuses, looks like there's 4 in the box. Geneerally under the fuse box lid it shows which one is for what circuit. Worst case, test them all. If the screen shot is too small, it's on page 563 in the service manual linked above.

https://i.gyazo.com/184faf8dab1e8b62ea985f7b63f06552.png


Another thing to be aware of, after you replace a burnt fuse, the new fuse could blow as well, since the old one blew for a reason. Possible the old fuel pump was starting to die, and was drawing too much power as an example.

Good luck, hopefully it's just a simple like $1 (or less) fuse.

[dustrunner]

With the multi meter ground on the battery I get .04 on red/ white, 11.74 on brown, 11.73 on yellow/red and 10.4 on green / white with the relay plugged in. also the fuses look and test good at .0 ohms

[ps2fixer]

Alright, that confirms the fuel relay is receiving power, but sounds like it's not passing power though it on the switch side.

Also side note, your battery is pretty low, if you have a battery charger, charge it back up to keep the battery healthy (normal fully charged is 12.6v and completely dead is 11.4v). If the battery gets too low of voltage, it degrades it's capacity over time.

Since the battery is quite low, it's possible the relay is good but doesn't have enough power from the battery to operate correctly, but it seems like the relay is the likely cause of the issue.



A new relay from Partzilla is $28.17.

https://www.partzilla.com/product/kawasaki/27002-1062?ref=f923f19662b0ae2fa2579421d50dd6ee0c509962



There is a way to "bench test" the relay off the bike, but it requires wiring up the power side to test the switch side. Also, appears there's 4 of the same relay on your machine. According to this page relay "B" is for turning on the radiator fan, so if you swap it with the fuel pump relay you should be able to hear the fuel pump kick on and I'd think you could start the machine with it removed. Clearly don't run it for too long with the radiator fan disabled. If you don't recall hearing the radiator fan kicking on recently, it's possible it's relay could be bad too, just something to keep in mind. You could also pull one of the starter control relays, but you likely won't be able to start the machine with them removed.

Below are the instructions for testing the relay if you want to give it a shot. I'd say to use a fully charged battery to test it though.

https://i.gyazo.com/180b924c2c28da72eb1133e37a5acf96.png

[dustrunner]

I have other relays I will try and charge the battery up. Thanks so much .

[oldskool83]

By chance are your fuel or vent lines crushed? Thus would happen alot on kfx700s if guys didnt remember how the lines ran.

[dustrunner]

Vent line goes into frame so no chance unfortunately .. I charged the battery up good and tested the relay and it read .00 so if I remember correctly that should be good but still no start

[ps2fixer]

Just for a sanity check, can you put your meter in volts mode and check the two probes at the fuel pump (key on, relays installed etc)? FYI, you can disconnect the fuel pump wires for the test. Meter might read a negative number, but that's fine, just means the polarity is backwards for the power on the bike vs the lead hook ups. If everything on the bike is working right, you should have voltage there.

[dustrunner]

For some reason I cant download the service manual, I have 4 wires on my fuel pump connector a white/red, a blue , a black with narrow yellow line and a black with a thick yellow line . could you please let me know which ones to check

[ps2fixer]

Try this link, both work on my computer, but this should be the direct link to it.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120904103546if_/http://www.naturalatv.com/manuals/KVF750_08-09_Manual.pdf

Anyway, the wire diagram only shows two wires to the fuel pump but the two wire colors are Black/Yellow and White/Red. I scanned over the wire diagram and found a blue wire and followed it, it ends up at the Crank Sensor which shows 2 wires, Blue and Black/White on the sensor side, and on the harness side it shows as Blue and Black/Red.

[dustrunner]

Got it, thank you

[dustrunner]

Fuel pump connection Reads 11.23 volts with key on and battery reads 12.20 volts

[shortline10]

1 volt drop is about right at the pump with the motor not running , like I said in post # 7 the pumps are know to go bad :)



Fuel pump connection Reads 11.23 volts with key on and battery reads 12.20 volts

[ps2fixer]

Interesting, assuming enough amperage is getting to the fuel pump, it sounds like it should be running. Maybe the replacement one is defective?

For the voltage seems quite low at the fuel pump like there's a bad connection along the way, but it should atleast do something I would think.

EDIT, just saw the other reply, maybe the 1v drop is normal, I don't normally work on machines with so many switches and such lol.

[dustrunner]

Shouldn't the red/white wire have more volts than .04 at the relay ?

[ps2fixer]

As long as you tested between the two wires going to the fuel pump, it's seeing power, and that power comes from the relay.

Anyway, back in post #15 you mentioned the 0.04v on the red/white wire, then #17 you said you'd charge the battery and you have spare relays. In #19 you tested the relay and the test showed good, was this the org or spare relay? I figured either the fully charged battery, or the relay swap would get power to the fuel pump, so that's why I asked to validate if it's getting power or not.

Speaking of the fuel pump with it disconnected, can you get an ohm reading between the two wires that normally power it? It should be a low reading, like 1-10 ohms. If it's bad (electrically) it will read either very high, very low (like 0 ohms/dead short), or no reading at all (broken wire internally). It's also possible the motor could be physically bad in some way. Don't know how the fuel pumps are assembled so can't advise much on checking the brushes and such, on a starter it's fairly simple but a fight to get it back together. Also, since you have a cheap replacement fuel pump too, you could take a reading off it too to see if they are similar or very different. Not sure if the service manual has an ohm spec for the motor.

Another test you could do is to pull the fuel line off the injector fuel rail (or whatever it hooks to for the injectors). It should pump gas with the key on. Service manual says it should put out 1.7oz or more in 3 seconds.

Also another thing I thought of that I saw in the service manual, be sure not to give the quad any throttle while cranking or you could flood it. Fuel injection is much different than carb in that respect. Not sure if the ATV's have a "clear flood" mode or not, on a car you can floor it 100% and it will turn off the injectors to simulate giving the carb some throttle to let more air in. Could also check the spark plug to see if it's wet, also while you're at it, could check if it has spark. Never hurts to be sure.

While I'm scanning over the servie manual for fuel pump ohm specs, another good point is to make sure there's enough fuel in the tank. Doing the fuel flow test should also help check if the filter is plugged up, and looks like there's also a fuel pressure regulator which could also get clogged.

Also, it sounds like it's possible the ECU can throw codes, I found a section detailing the signal and what it means, but it just mentions using a tester to get the codes.

One of the error codes has a side effect of turning the fuel pump off. The service code is #31 for the Vehicle-down sensor.

Here's a thread talking about the service codes, sounds like it's not exactly easy to read. Based on the amp specs I saw, sounds like a simple LED would work as a visual way to see the peaks. This info is on page 102 of the service manual. Long peaks = first number, short peaks = 2nd number, long delay per code. Pretty similar setup as OBD1 systems in 1995 and older cars where you jump a couple pins in the diag port and count the flashes of the check engine light.

[dustrunner]

Today I pulled the pump out of the original 308 mile fuel pump assembly and hooked a battery charger 2 it and it spins much to my surprise. . if I cant figure out whats wrong with whatever could I run a hot wire to the pump that runs off the key on position or is this not a good idea ?

[ps2fixer]

Generally hot wire isn't advised since it could be bypassing safety systems and such, but if the computer doesn't want the pump to run, it probably wouldn't spark either. I'm not sure if the system uses the fuel pump to regulate the fuel pressure, or if it's an always 100% running pump. Like my Lexus at low rpm my pump runs on about 7v, and for higher rpm it runs the full 12v, but it also has a pressure regulator.

If the pumps are good, maybe we are chasing the problem in the wrong direction. I don't remember all the details of this thread, but I think you had spark, so it could be fuel flow, injector and such causing no run.

Looking at my last post, sounds like the easiest way to test the pump is to pull the fuel line off and route it into a small bottle and turn the key on. If it's working, it should be pumping fuel into it.

Not sure what the connections on the pump looks like, but if you have spare wire, you could run jumper wires from the battery to the pump, but most DC motors can be hooked up backwards so unless you know the polarity theres a chance it could be running backwards. Also it would be best if the jumper leads have a fuse, but most likely you won't have anything like that setup there. It might be an ok test just to validate the pump getting power isn't the problem. Most pumps run on 12v, it would be nice to validate that though on the spare ones you have.

[dustrunner]

So the computer slows down the volts to the pump at idle ?

[ps2fixer]

On my Lexus car it does which is a 1990, on my dad's rincon, the fuel pump runs full speed always. Most older cars run the full pump at full speed. 2009 is a newer than most stuff I work with, so not sure if it's the norm or not. Have to love computer controlled stuff lol.

[dustrunner]

I'm on the hate side of computer stuff rite now, i got a corvette with electrical no spark problem, plus this atv, and a tractor that wont charge. But I will get my thinking cap out this week and see if something wonderful happens.

[ps2fixer]

Sounds like fun. Tractor is probably the easiest one if it's an older machine. Probably best for a new thread for each if you want more detailed input on them. Depending where the rectifier/regulator is for the tractor's alternator, you'd want to test for AC if it's external, or DC if it's internal. If no power, you'll need to figure out with wire powers the fields and make sure it has battery voltage. It should come from the ignition switch in most cases. Safety systems etc might effect it on newer stuff. Also of course if it's a junk battery, it won't hold a charge. Simple test for that though, take a battery voltage reading with the machine off, and a reading with it running, running voltage should be higher than off voltage if it's outputting power even with a bad battery.

How old is the corvette, it's kind of the same story with the tractor, older is much simpler, pretty much just have to make sure the distrubitor has power from the ignition switch and have good rotar, cap, plugs, wires. If no spark at that point, it's likely the module in the distributor (same thing as a CDI for our ATVs but wired/designed slightly different).

There's a reason I run old machines, they don't experience electrical problems that makes the machine completely useless. It's kind of like modern power tools, pretty much anything with a brushless motor is awesome, more battery life, more power output, etc, however a microcontroller is a requirement for the motor to work and that is the most likely point of failure unless the tool is designed like garbage. The old power tools it's just a motor and a switch, variable speed ones have a bit of a circuit board to step the power in the different levels but generally are very reliable.

Newest atv... 1987 TRX350D (I don't count the 1999 350 Warrior that I haven't rode in 10+ years).
Newest car I've own - 1997 Toyota Corolla (last year of the cast iron block engine, got 300k miles on it, bought it with 225k)
Newest Truck - 1998 Toyota T100 (last year for the T100's before it became the 2000 Tundra and built in USA, All T100's are built in Japan and I can see the build quality difference). The door pins on my T100 are perfect, never seen a Japanese built car/truck with bad/worn door pins yet, I have two Tundras for parts.... both door pins are very bad for the driver's door, one at 250k and the other at 350k miles.

Heck even my lawn mower is from the late 80's Honda. Orig plan was to fix up a 1963 Simplicity Landlord 2010, but the Honda has a better design in my eyes (full shaft drive to the transmission, I hate belt drive on mowers).

Only exception is computers, tv's/screens, etc, but I still stay clear from the "Smart" tv's and such. I'd rather hook a media computer up to it and let the computer be the "brain" that I can control what's going on.

I haven't had to work on my own vehicle for an actual issue since I've owned GM products, like the 1993 Pontiac Grand am with the not desirable "U" motor 2.5L. Bad module (pain to change), also did a tune up and one of the new spark plugs missed while under load, replaced them again and that was solved, then a couple months later, out of the blue head gasket blows. Went to the Astro Van I parked with the 4.3L v6 to fire it up and prep it to drive since I had it and was a daily driver like a month before then... distributor cap button fell apart and had no spark. Did the same tuneup on that machine just to drive it (it was destined for the scrap yard $100 beater). Had a worn out rear end with 220k miles. Drove a 1985 GMC S-15, fuel injected engine from a 87 truck but intake swapped back to carb + inline fuel pump, ran ok for low rpm, but it was garbage on the road with no power, only put 500 miles on it before I switched to a 1994 Ford Ranger I bought and fixed up. Came with a bad manual transmission (4th gear it would get stuck in) also had a locked up alternator (impact fixed it when we went to take the pulley off) and had to solder the starter wire from solenoid to starter motor. Swapped the transmissions out and spent a week trying to get the clutch system to bleed, even with a mighty vac, jacking the truck ad extreme angles etc. Gave up on the truck and scrapped it since it lacked power too (2.3L cal engine, later found out the primary coil was junk so the timing was retarded by running off the secondary coil pack). Long story short, I buy cheap vehicles and fix them up, these Japanese built machines hands down are 10x more reliable. My Camry I put 60k miles (240k -> 300k) on and has a rusted brake line, Corolla I put 80k miles (225k-305k) on and has rusted support for where the gas tank straps bolt on, 96 tacoma had the leave spring mount rust off on one side (the Dayna frame recall issue). I live in Michigan, so rust is normal and pretty much expected. I've only had the Lexus for about 1.5 years, I have a ton of work to do on it since the last owner hasn't done anything to it for the last 20 years, timing belt looks original and isn't long for this world, figured I'd do a major maintenance update on it since I know the 1UZ v8 is known to go 500k+ miles if taken care of. I've put about 10k miles on it (came with 217k and I think it's around 218k now). I've even taken the car out in the state land and followed my cousin's 4runner around, just didn't go through the big mud hole we ran into though. Even climbed a sand hill just as far as the 4runner with a little momentum lol.

I guess the TLDR is, from my experience, old Japanese stuff > USA designed, mexican/china made. Go back to old American made stuff and it's a bit harder to really say what's better, some of the old American stuff was really great.

Anyway, just to be clear, I'm not bashing anyone for owning american made or anything silly like that, just stating my experience. Kind of derailed from the topic a bit lol.

Wish I could live closer to people, electrical problems aren't fun, but they are always interesting to track down. My cousin poked at his 250sx for 2-3 days trying to figure out a no spark issue. Through messenger online, I had him do a few tests and in about 15 mins we figured out the kill switch wire was shorting to ground. Had him cut it since he said all the wiring was hooked up right and validated it runs. Ran a new external wire for the kill wire and found his reverse light was hooked up to the kill wire instead of the gray wire >.<. He muds the machine, so it's not exactly a pretty machine, and he can't afford another harness etc so hate advising the cut wire thing, but I know him so I knew he wouldn't care and I made a almost proper repair wire for him for free. Also sold him a new ignition switch at cost since his was bad (had to fiddle with it to get lights).

My dad's been calling me once in a while to help with electrical problems, and he's a trained mechanic. Sadly nothing interesting yet, just simple bad fuses and very easy to spot issues like people poking wires with meter leads and 3 years later nothing but green comes out of the hole cuz no one sealed it. It's acceptable practice in phone lines (business POTS lines), not automotive though.

I better end my post before I get my self into any more trouble lol. I guess I'm in story mode tonight.

[dustrunner]

As sharp as you are on Electric i'm suprised but agree on the older stuff is less problematic. the corvette is an 88 with the awesome VATS system I bypassed with a plug in ohm resistor I believe way back in 2006 . the tractor is an old 1950 ferguson 30 with original 6 volt system. got a generator on it with voltage reg. but im dumb. off to the shop to figure out the brute I hope ...

[ps2fixer]

I see, I personally haven't worked with generators on engines much, I think some where DC and some AC. If it has atleast 3 wires I'd assume AC (3 phase), just a single wire to the regulator I'd assume is DC. Photos probably would work best of the generator and regulator to show wires and such. I have a 1963 Simplicity with a generator, but it's only 1 wire and it's also the starter so just a basic DC brushed motor and has an external regulator.

I guess I'm kind of an interesting person, I'm the same way with tech, my career was in computers/tech/programming, however I don't even have an active cell phone, don't use facebook, twitter, etc. I'd rather go outside and waste time on a hopeless machine than waste time on social media. Just too much drama and junk on there that's just pointless to me.

I was hoping the corvette was around the 70's era, didn't really do much with 80's era vehicles, too much EPA emission garbage and vacuum line nightmares. The Toyota stuff doesn't seem to be plagued with that stuff as much. The 22R carb'ed engine did have quite a lot of vacuum lines though.

Had to look up the VATS thing, it's the chipped keys, yea those are not cheap, bypassing it seems like the logical direction to go xD. Too bad the signal is PWM else you could just bypass the whole security system. Might be an interesting product to look into for my micro controller adventure. Theory in mind is a small black box you wire in to remove your OEM security module that always sends the "good to go" signals to the ECM. Not sure if it's "keyed" in any way or if the signal is the same for all cars. I'm always looking for new stuff to make, should be a good learning experience, too bad I don't have the 93 Buick I scrapped out with that system..... I was going to fix it up but it suddenly lost spark when I car dolly'ed it to my dad's work to work on it (I was helping them so using the shop was kind of the agreement). I was only like 17 at the time though and didn't know a whole lot of this stuff.

Back to the micro controller thing, would be funny to build a "cracker" for the system so it tells you what resistance you need for the module. Assuming the 15 values are known, just go through them in a brute force style once per 5 mins to avoid the timeout effect. 15 * 5 mins = max of 75 mins to determine an unknown resistance value and it would be fully automated.

https://www.fastfieros.com/tech/gm_vats_passkey.htm

Anyway, unless you've done some bypassing on the starter relay, it sounds like if it's the VATS/passkey system you'd have no crank. I'd check for spark at the coil, should be the same style of test as at the spark plug wire, might have to switch a wire around for the spark plug connection, that's assuming it has a single coil and a distributor. If it has the coil packs and no spark, it's pretty common for those modules to go bad. I'd make sure your injectors are pulsing, which normally takes a "Noid" light which is basically an LED that lights up when there's a pulse. No pulse = computer not happy about something. If you have pulse, the computer should also be sending signal to spark too.

https://www.harborfreight.com/11-piece-noid-light-and-iac-tester-set-97959.html?cid=paid_google|*PLA+-+All+Products+-+Lower+Sales+Items|New+Products+-+%283%29+Price+%2430-50|97959&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&mkwid=siKQGMuPz|pcrid|318476002959|pkw||pmt||pdv|c |slid||product|97959|&pgrid=63088205026&ptaid=pla-295270841706&pcid=1654049980&intent=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3d6g4OeF5QIVyMDACh0pvA_6EAQYAiAB EgJzjPD_BwE

I should be around the computer, so if you find anything out on the atv, post it up and I'll likely respond pretty quickly.

[dustrunner]

I PULLED THE PUMP out of the housing and pluged it into the main connector and have no motion in the pump with the key on. tried cycling the key on and off a few times but still no luck. but again the pump spins nice on a battery charger. The 88 corvette had the vats bypass in for years. Do you think the module would go bad ? it acted up a few times before finally not starting, but still turns over fine. thank again for your help.

[ps2fixer]

Hard to say on the Corvette, the Noid lights would probably be the best test to do, I'd think pretty much any mechanic shop should have a set of them, maybe the parts store would let you use a set with a deposit or something.

ATV's are a bit different designed vs a car, but I'd think the same way, if the computer is sending the spark signal, it should be running the fuel pump and injector. I can't recall if you checked for spark or not though. If no spark too, then I'd say it's some part of the safety system not playing nice. Also no spark could be caused by a bad crankshaft sensor but I'd think it would still run the fuel pump.

Looked over the diagram again, the ECU controls a fuel pump relay, so it's full 12v powered, so wiring that directly off a switched power wire should bypass the ECU causing issues with the fuel pump not running, but knowing why it's not running would be nice to figure out.

Scanned down the manual a bit, there's a million things saying might cause ECU damage, reversing polarity of the battery cables, don't charge the battery with the battery cables hooked up, don't disconnect the battery with the ignition switch on

Here's an interesting quote about the vehicle down sensor.


When the vehicle is down, the vehicle-down sensor is
turned OFF and the ECU shuts off the fuel injector and ignition
system. The FI indicator light (LCD) blinks but the service
code cannot be displayed. The ignition switch is left
ON. If the starter button is pushed, the electric starter turns
but the engine doesn’t start. To start the engine again, raise
the vehicle, turn the ignition switch OFF, and then ON. The
vehicle-down sensor is turned ON and the light goes OFF.

Also when you turn your key on, does the fuel injector light come on in the dash? If so, does it go out after around 2 seconds?

[dustrunner]

I will check the f.i. light tomorrow. This whole problem started after a snowy ride after my belt light came on = it must have over reved a bit in the snow drifts and caused the belt to slip upward and hit the worn belt switch ? I was able to use the jumper wire provided by kawi. hooked to the frame to reset the light for the belt. but that didn't fix it . also last time I messed with it fired rite up after spraying gas into the intakes.

[dustrunner]

I only see a belt light, a neutral light, an reverse light and an oil light across the top of dash and a fuel gauge to the left.

[dustrunner]

Vehicke Down Sensor = is this on the quad ? I will try jacking it up.

[dustrunner]

You are CORRECT AS ALWAYS ps2fixer = it does have a fi light that does come on for 2 seconds. I jacked it up and poured a lil gas in intakes and it runs till the gas is gone . so it is still getting spark.

[dustrunner]

ok, found a article that says that vehicle down sensor is farthest back under seat. off to shop hope this is it .

[dustrunner]

IT is still plugged in and in correct position but still no start. I shoulda stuck to 3 wheelers !

[ps2fixer]

From my understanding, the Fuel injection light coming on and going out after 2 seconds is "normal operation" aka no ECU codes and such. Pretty interesting the ECU isn't sending the signal to fire the fuel pump relay though.

If you want to jump the fuel pump, I think the easiest way would be right at the fuel pump relay. Could just do it temp to validate that's the problem. Possible the ECU has a bad circuit where it can't fire off the fuel pump or something along those lines, maybe from a bad fuel pump relay or it somehow got shorted out. According to the wire diagram, you should be jumping White/Red to White/Green and leave Yellow/Red and Brown/Yellow untouched or disconnected. The wire diagram isn't the greatest, so I'm unsure if the fuel pump will always run with the relay jumped, or only run while the ignition switch is on. I'd think it would only work with the switch on, but it's possible the relay is always seeing power on one of the switched legs.

If jump the relay works to make the machine run right etc and the fuel pump runs even with the key off, you'd be looking at modifying the harness to bypass the ECU. Looking like the Brown wire off the ignition switch would probably do what we'd want for the switched power wire. The ground comes from the ECU, so might have to hard wire the other wire to ground. Does the pump happen to come with a length of wire then a connector, or is the connector directly on the motor? Probably easiest to add a relay to the machine that switches on when the ignition switch is turned on, and it runs power direct to the fuel pump, while the other fuel pump wire is grounded. Should only have to tap into the harness at the brown wire for the ignition switch with that setup. To mod the fuel pump relay to work through the harness there would be a lot of cutting wires and such. Hopefully the fuel pump runs just normal with it jumped.

Just can't think of a situation where the ECU would be sending spark, no store codes, but not send the fuel pump signal, only case I can think of is a faulty ECU.

[dustrunner]

The pump does have 2 wires that plug into the top of pump body connection. So I should cut the y/r wire and hook that to the brown / y wire while leaving the other wires in the connector still hooked together and plugged In ?

[ps2fixer]

Before cutting any wires, I'd run a test wire first. Like if it's a female terminal, you could pretty much just push bare wire into it, just don't short the two together. You'll have to figure out which one is ground vs power too. If it's male terminals, it's not so easy, guessing they are standard 1/4in spade terminals though, so worst case could buy some cheap ones at the store to make the test leads. I personally really hate suggesting cutting wires, I could probably make some sort of adapter/inline jumper to bypass the ECU signal, but we can worry about that after you get a chance to power the fuel pump and see if it will start off that. In theory it should as long as the fuel injectors are firing.

[dustrunner]

I took a wire and stuck it into the back of the plug with the relay still hooked into it. With w/r. To w/g and turned key on but still no pump work.

[dustrunner]

Just took multi meter ground to battery + to w/y = 0.0. Then + to w/g =7.72 then turn key on w/y = .02 and w/g= 7.27 v on dc 20 setting.

[dustrunner]

So am I jumping the w/r to w/g and also grounding something ?

[ps2fixer]

Weird, the relay is only has half the voltage, maybe the motor runs on a lower voltage or something. Jumping those two wires should have the pump run, even if it's under voltaged it would run slow atleast, so the ground through the computer might be at fault, but I'd think all the sensors would have issues since they share the same wire or the wire diagram just isn't showing the whole picture very well.

Searched real quick on this issue, first thread matches your situation pretty closely and they did the same thing as I suggested, jumped the two wires in the relay, fuel pump runs and bike starts for them. Guy found his fuel regulator was bad (lack of fuel 1/2 or more throttle), AND the ignition coil was weak/bad. Pretty rare to have two issues at once, but then again the effects he saw changed as he fixed stuff. Sounds like these machines had a lot of fuel related problems. I mainly wanted to validate jumping the relay would work, so in your situation you have a power delivery or ground issue for the fuel pump relay.

Also, did you validate if the fuel pump relay clicks when the key is turned on? You'll have to put your finger on it to be sure it's the right one, there's also an ignition relay the clicks at the same time based on that post. If the relay clicks, then things will make a bit more sense in my head, if not, then there's two issues, or the ground is the common factor.

https://www.mudinmyblood.net/forum/23-kawasaki/32913-2008-brute-force-750-fuel-relay-troubleshooting.html

Based on that thread, I guess the fuse box is another problematic spot, wire corrode etc. The wire diagram doesn't show me if the fuses get their power directly from the battery.

Had to look up wire color + pin location at the ECU, White wire that supplies power to the fuel pump fuse also goes to the ECU which is labeled as "8. Power Supply to ECU (from Battery)", so the power into the fuse should be battery voltage and that means the relay should be seeing the full ~12v or so. This suggests to me a bad connection like a corroded wire, corroded terminals, partially blown fuse, etc.

I also followed the wiring diagram to the other side of the pump (ground side) which also goes to the ECU to 3 pins labeled as follows.

11. Ground for Control System
33. Ground for Engine
42. Ground for Engine

Little more digging trying to find some sort of ground location page, and I found the REAL wire diagram.

Black/Yellow wire at the pump is fed off from the battery's ground cable that bolts to the engine (atleast that's how it's labeled). Can you do the same test but in reverse with your multi meter? Red probe to battery + and black probe to black/yellow wire for the fuel pump (harness side of course). You should be seeing full battery voltage. This will validate if you have a good ground.


Ground test reading



Since it seems like the issue is related to the power delivery side. I have a bunch of tests for you to run to try to isolate which leg of wiring the issue comes from. Also be sure the battery is showing atleast 12v on the meter so I'm not thinking things a low voltage when it's the battery (use jumper cables and a spare battery or your car etc if needed for the testing, just don't short anything out =).

All of these tests are done with black probe to battery negative since the test above should validate the ground isn't the issue. The other probe will just be hopping fuse to fuse, you can probe the top of the fuses where the contacts expose through so don't need to pull them. Check both sides to be sure the fuse is good, let me know what the readings are for the following:


Main fuse (30a) -
Fuse Pump Fuse (10a) -
Accessory Fuse (10a) -



With this full wire diagram, things make 100x more sense, the power doesn't run through the ECU like the other diagram suggests (stupidest diagram I've ever seen for that fact). Same with the ground, it doesn't run through the ECU at all.

Here's some more on the fuel pump relay if it's not switching when the key is turned on. This is the power source route for the switch side of the relay. All points should have full battery voltage.

Power wire side (black multimeter probe to battery neg for all these tests and use red to probe the wire on harness side)

Starter solenoid (battery positive cable ends up here)
Main Fuse (30a) (test both sides)
Ignition switch (power from fuse is on white wire and can be tested, output is brown but requires the switch to be hooked up to test the brown).
Kill switch (brown wire is input and can be tested, output is yellow/red and requires the kill switch to be hooked up to test)
Fuel Pump Relay (power wire is yellow/red)


Ground side: (red multimeter probe to battery pos for all these tests and use black to probe the wire on harness side)

Fuel Pump Relay (Brown/yellow wire) this should test good with the key on and the machine ready to start
Pin 30 on ECU (brown/yellow), not expecting you to test this point, but figured I'd include it too, test would require to back probe the connector while hooked up
Runs through the ECU to control the relay


** Note: Typically in a car when you turn the key on, the fuel pump runs for a few seconds and turns off and doesn't run again till the engine is cranked or running. I suspect this machine might be the same way, so you might have to stage the test (have everything setup to get readings), then turn the key on and see what the meter says.


Anyway, lots of testing for ya, might want to print it off and write notes down. Shoot me the readings and I should be able to trace it to a single wire/pair of contacts to inspect/replace/reroute. No clue how I missed the full wire diagram before, maybe because the electronics section labeled page for wire diagram just says Dummy Page and it's like 2 pages down further lol. Since this sounds to be a common issue for this model, I should build an interactive troubleshooter for this problem since I'm almost an expert on this system now lol. Only thing I'm not 100% sure on is how/when the ECU sends the fuel pump relay signal. Now that I'm armed with the data I really needed I think we can figure this out pretty easy, atleast for my side xD.

https://i.gyazo.com/99c467950194ebc605b7a31b251c7797.png

Anyway, here's the ECU pinout as well for more or less complete info for those finding this on google.

https://i.gyazo.com/d9d71ea0f5e514de2a507852d4eb5d37.png


Here's a list of common problems for these machines. Seems like a lot of electrical and a couple mechanical issues to watch out for. Unrelated to your issue, but having a good idea what the machine is like and possible issues is generally good info to know.

http://forum.highlifter.com/Brute-Force-Problems-m4597505.aspx

[dustrunner]

THE fuel relay is the only relay clicking. I switched out all 3 plus the 2 that I purchased and they all click but only on the fuel pump plug. The voltage on the plug for the fuel pump is 12.45 with they off and 12.16 v with key on...that plug has 2 of those blk/y wires and both read pretty close to the same .

[dustrunner]

Also the y/r wire at the relay has 12.22 v with key on relay unplugged . while the w/g has only 2.03

[ps2fixer]

Interesting, so far. The only odd thing is the wire colors for the fuel pump relay, it should only have one dark wire which is Brown/Yellow, the starter control relays both have 2+ dark wires though. I wouldn't think this manual would have the same wrong colors in 3+ locations in it if it was inaccurate, book is a kawasaki branded manual covering 2008-2009 Brute Force 750.

https://i.gyazo.com/fa51a25fe5d8aa99130347e3461f21ab.png

Anyway, looking at the relays listed on the wire diagram, I don't see an ECU or ignition related relay, so I think that thread I got that info from was invalid or for different year (they said it's a 2008). Anyway, going off from what you found with the yellow/red wire and the fuel pump relay clicking that should mean the signal side of the relay is fine and it's the switching side with the issue (makes sense jumped the relay and no go since that's where the issue is).

When you get a chance, get the readings for the 3 fuses in my last post. Here's an image I found that shows the fuse probe spot to better illustrate what I was talking ab out.

https://www.samarins.com/diagnose/img/multimeter-good-fuse.jpg

[dustrunner]

Holding fuel pump in hand and jump from battery to positive of pump it spins making me think ground is ok ?

[ps2fixer]

Yea seems like the ground is good. Didn't know it was possible to back probe the connector on the fuel pump to supply power to it (bit risky doing that if you're unsure which is power etc, power wire -> ground wire = dead short). Multimeter test should work as well, but it's backwards logic for testing for power.

The white/green wire clearly is an odd value, with the 3 fuse tests I can get a good idea where the connector/wiring issue is. I'm kind of guessing right at the fuel pump fuse you'll see similar voltages and the other two fuses will test fine for voltage.

[dustrunner]

Fuel pump Fuse reads 4.42v on both sides

[ps2fixer]

How about the main fuse and one of the other fuses (doesn't matter which)?

We are on a trail!

[dustrunner]

Main fuse was around 12 and the other 2 fuses were 0 .0 maybe because they were e/g brk control and acc. 260195

[ps2fixer]

According to this wire diagram, the 3 other fuses get their power through the main fuse. If two has no power and one has lower than expected, I think we found our bad wire.

I traced the brake control fuse (labled as actuator controller fuse) and it runs to the actuator controller, seems to make sense. It wires to the 4x4 actuator and engine brake actuator, whatever they do. Sounds like in it's current state, that's not working too.


Anyway, problematic wiring is between the white wire (main fuse output) to white/black & white/blue. Problem is, that wire goes to a LOT of stuff. We know which wire it is now, problem is finding where it's broken so a jumper wire can be installed and you have everything working like normal again.

We can go about this a couple different routes. I'd guess the issue is right by the fuse box, maybe there's a clear sign like a wire with green corrosion coming out of it. From what I can see, the fuse box should have a short wire length, then a connector. Need to do some testing at that connector to validate the issue is in the harness side and not the actual fuse box.

All of these tests are in Ohms test or beep mode. All of these should should connection on the main harness side of the connector.

White to White/Black
White to White/Blue

If those both test as having connection to each other, then we know the harness is good and avoids having to test the 20 other things the wire goes to. I also noticed I was mistaken, the acc fuse is powered off a different wire (brown) which is from the ignition switch and powered off the white wire. Just to validate, your brake lights work with the ignition switch on right? Your electric start I assume is working too, all that's powered off the brown wire and ultimately comes from the white wire. Kind of have a feeling the fuse box is at fault. That acc fuse should have power when the key is on if you wanted to reset that.

Related images for reference

https://i.gyazo.com/63570a9cfdcb9aded6aded2ccee4eff6.png

https://i.gyazo.com/ed6459ae42898630e0c1d6b57c884af1.png

[dustrunner]

My multi Meters about 2 catch on fire. Lol. Gotta get a few supplies. Will get back onto it in am. T.y. so much .

[ps2fixer]

Not a problem, atleast we are on a trail of finding the root of the problem =).

[dustrunner]

Just unplugged fuse box. No corrosion . Looks like a solid white feeding fuse then out with a smaller w/r wire. And yes brake light works with key on. 260205

[dustrunner]

260206 nice and clean

[ps2fixer]

Interesting fuse box design, little different from what I was seeing on google. I'd think that's the better design, looks like the terminals on the fuse block are just pass through right to the fuses, no wiring involved.

Can you get a photo of that white wire how it splits off with the white/red wire? Just interesting it only splits off once, not twice. Looking back at the wire diagram, that connector should have 2 wire/red wires together going to one terminal, solid white wire separate (in vs out of the main fuse). The white/red wires both run to the starter relay and combine together again at the bolt. Weird design choice.

From what I can gather, unless there's some fancy stuff going on in that fuse box, the issue is likely in your harness. Since those connectors look standard to me, I could make an adapter that goes between the harness and fuse box to does the splice work there. In theory that would bring it back to life, but it's possible other things running off that white wire might not have power still, it just guarantees the fuel pump would and the other fuse it should be powering. I'd want to validate the issue is in the harness via multi meter before making the adapter though. I'd also need clear photos of the wiring so I can see all of the wire colors and their location in the connector housing. Basically the adapter would pass through the wiring, and the 3 wires that should be connected together would be all spliced together right in the adapter, big 6 wire splice (3 in and 3 out). Depending how much the 14 guage wiring effects things, might have to do it in two splices with a 14 gauge jumper wire between the two, don't think my splice terminals are big enough to handle all that copper at once lol. Could leave the harness side disconnected for the splices, but figured it should power the part of the wiring that doesn't have connection.

Here's my connectors that should match yours besides being white vs black.

Anyway, let me know when you get another multi meter. Probably best to grab a quality one, but the cheap ebay ones work "ok" if you don't mind them being a bit inaccurate and can't read small ohm readings. Quality used ones run something like $25 on ebay, new I'd expect to pay around $50+ unless you really research what models are good for the cheap ones. My meter was something like $25 new, but that was back in the 90's right from radio shack.


https://i.gyazo.com/f8566e9f8f6f563b9e780f847e5a26fe.jpg

[dustrunner]

260207solid white into and w/r out the other side is r/w and w/blk brake control I believe

[dustrunner]

My multi meter is working. But I left key on ATV last nite. How much voltage is needed for accurate test sir ?

[ps2fixer]

Yep, all that looks like it matches up to the wire diagram, also pretty sure I can put together the pinout for that connector. The white/black and red/white is for that actuator controller. The other connector should be brown, brown, white/blue , and white/green.

Brown wires is for the acc power (in/out of the fuse), and white/blue and white/green for the fuel pump.

Assuming the issue is in the harness, it would be interesting to trace it to the splice that failed, and see what caused it, but I suspect you're more interested in getting it going and not so interested in pulling the harness apart lol. If the splice that fails doesn't effect anything else, I could potentially sell a product to "fix" the fuel pump power issues and provide a multi meter based test to validate if the part would fix the issue or not. It's new enough and a common enough issue, and expensive enough to fix "correctly" by replacing the harness that I think it might be something good to make. I'll probably have to buy a harness just to check how the splices are and guess how they fail and where it physically is located in the harness.

[ps2fixer]

Oh just saw your reply, the ohm readings require no voltage at all, the meter provides the power for the tests =). You can put it in beep mode, or 200ohm range (or auto range). Good should show connection (beep), or 0 or near 0 readings. Bad should be no beep, and whatever the meter shows when the probes have no connection. All tests done on the harness side of the connection.

[dustrunner]

I don't think my cheapo meter has a beep. is there a switch for it ?

[ps2fixer]

Every meter is slightly different, but most generally have the beep mode. Both modes do the same thing, just the beep mode makes it audible.

Here's my radio shack meter, can you tell it has years of use on it lol.

I tried to make things simple and screen shot open + shorted per mode. Your meter should have similar symbols as mine. The radio shack one is auto range select, and the "select" button changes it from ohm testing to beep mode to diode testing (the triangle with the line in front of it symbol).

Ohms Mode
https://i.gyazo.com/ffcc4917f23d9aeca03162d490e14181.jpg

Beep Mode
https://i.gyazo.com/a232522c36e6c935c7d632d833a887ab.jpg


Here's the Chinese cheap meter from ebay, notice it doesn't even read 0.0 ohms for the dead short test. This one you have to move the switch based on if you want 200 ohm range or beep mode.

Ohms Mode
https://i.gyazo.com/f9caf3023964fdd09234a01e633ea1f6.jpg

Beep Mode (also does the diode test at the same time)
https://i.gyazo.com/54dca12a804a53865471f5f42da86519.jpg

Since that china meter is hard to photo, here's a better photo of the settings.

https://i.gyazo.com/ab1c6f0e3cdf0d4ab455cc1c1e2da218.png

Also small note about the meter differences, my china probes had a silver coating on them just like the radio shake probes, but the readings were very inconsistent. I sanded them down to the yellow brass under it with 400 grit paper, and the banana plug side too and it reads the same numbers every time now (dead short test is 0.3-0.4 every time and I can subtract 0.4 from ohm readings and get the same readings as my good meter now). However, before I sanded it down, I couldn't subtract the same number from dead short vs ohm testing because the numbers didn't match what was expected. Pretty much expect a china meter to be around 10 ohms off.

Anyway, for our testing, just need to validate connection or no connection, so doesn't matter too much what it reads, the fuel pump wire I suspect will read in the 100's of ohms, if you're in the 200 range it should show as no connection for over 200ohms, not sure what the upper limit would be for beep mode, I'd assume 200ohms as well though for beep vs no beep.

[dustrunner]

260210 I have this but I dont know if it works

[ps2fixer]

I don't see the beep signal, interesting, first meter I've seen without it.

The 200 setting would work fine though, you just have to look at the display to tell if it has connection or not.

[dustrunner]

260211 how260211 about this 1 ?

[dustrunner]

Just checked the white into the fuse block unplugged and it reads 0.0 with key on but the smaller w/r reads same as battery voltage.

[ps2fixer]

Hey Sunpro I know that name, my dad has an exhaust gas analyzer made by them. From my understanding they are old school high quality. I'm kind of thinking the old meters might just not have had the beep option and is a semi newish thing, I was born in 87, so around mid to late 90's is when I first messed with a multi meter.

The white/red wire is power from battery, so battery voltage expected there. If the fuse was connected the white wire would have the same (back probing).

You could connect the fuse panel back up and back probe the white/blue and white/green wires to do the same test, just readings would be voltage vs ohms (realistically I'm looking for the ohms test, but voltage test I can make sense of too).

A little more on the ohms test, it's as simple as the probes not testing vs the probes touching, whatever it says open vs touching is what you'd expect for the wires to be good vs bad. 200ohm setting would work, but 2k would work fine too (2k is like the go to range for most things).

The ranges don't really mean a whole lot, it's just the max resistance it can read. The logic is, if you're trying to read 10 ohms, but you're on the 2k ohm setting, the results will be less accurate than when on the 200 ohm setting. Switching to like 20k ohm setting, you'd be missing a decimal place most likely and might not be able to see 10 ohms in the display. Pretty much we are testing the wires like a fuse.

[dustrunner]

260217 on this setting the 30 amp fuse jumps all over the place on both sides of fuse. Reading don't stay up very long either. Also turned it down to 200 with same results

[dustrunner]

260218 both sides with key on.

[ps2fixer]

when in ohms mode the meter provides the power, the probes have to be between the two points you're testing, like for testing a fuse you put one probe on each side to read if the fuse has connection or not. It doesn't even need to be installed. I know most people don't really get experence using a meter in ohms mode, everyone seems to be used to test lights and use the meter the same way in volts mode.

We know the main fuse is good in and out of the fuse box (brake lights work etc), but the problematic part is where it comes back from the harness as the other two white wires (effectively they are the same wire, but kawasaki changed the color to white/blue and white/black for some reason).

Anyway, taking measurements between ground and fuse is basically measuring the circuit's resistance which can tell like expected amp draw and such, but that's more of a circuit board level thing, not what we are looking for here. One probe should be white wire in the harness connector, and the other on the white/green, same thing but switch to the white/blue wire.

Here's a couple screen shots showing testing a fuse and a wire, both are good. I had to cheat a little with the clamp since only one hand for photos. Hopefully that makes sense.

https://i.gyazo.com/471f69bc976cc1e3cdb5dec377c621ac.jpg


Here's a screen shot of the wiring showing the 3 wires are the same wire inside the harness.

https://i.gyazo.com/9f2158c02e2f1eb21415d61f29bc7a88.png

[dustrunner]

260219 no reading except if I probe white then w/black ....same plug in meter jumps all over from .06 to 9.4. Key on fuses in all hooked up.

[ps2fixer]

Yep sounds like a bad wire, you're in the 200k range, so 0.6 is 600 ohms, 9.4 is 9,400 ohms. Both way too high. Power on the wires doesn't matter, the meter doesn't care since it's not part of the circuit. Same logic you can touch the white wire for 120v house wiring even though it has 120v at it because your body isn't part of the circuit (white = neutral = ground basically speaking, and you get shocked because you're the "new" ground). Black wire however will poke you. Probably best not to put this to the test unless you know the wiring is accurate, but you can test it with a meter, white to bare copper (bare copper = earth ground). Test should be done in AC volts since not all houses are wired with neutral and earth ground directly tied together so they might not ohm out correctly (just because they don't connect doesn't mean they are not related).

Anyway, back to the wiring the only thing left that could be tested is the fuse box connector (the male prongs sticking out) and the fuse on the other side to be sure they all connect through, but I really doubt that's where the issue is. You could do it with the connectors plugged in, that's easier. You'd probe white/black to white/green to test the fuel pump fuse/box. The other fuse to test the same way would be white/black to red/white. We know the main fuse is good, so no point in testing that, same with the acc fuse (brake lights run off the same wire so logic says it should be fine). I'm like 95% sure you should get good readings off those two tests and that validates the fuse box side is good.

There's a lot of possible reasons why the meter would jump all over on the numbers, but the main factor is that it didn't stop at 0 ohms. Like the photos I took before, my meter started off reading 0.2 ohms and dropped to 0.0 and climbed back to 0.1. The actual connection quality from probes to terminal can effect the readings slightly. Also the wires could be bad right at the terminals so moving the probes around is making them get and loose connection. If you wanted, you could tug on the two problem wires and see if either of them rips apart. Only should need around 10lbs of force to feel it, don't need to try to break stuff. A lot of times you'll feel it stretch if it's bad, that means the copper is broken inside, and the insulation is stretching. The Fix could be as simple as cut the wires shorter and put new terminal on them. Infact it's probably a good idea to do another test after the fusebox one, since if the wires are junk right at the plug, the adapter idea would be changed slightly, no point in providing a connection to wiring that doesn't go anywhere.

[dustrunner]

W/blk to w /g. Nothing....w/blk to w/r jumps up to 21.2 then settles to around 7.0 key on fuses in all hooked up.

[dustrunner]

Does the metal bracket the fuse block is in need to be bolt grounded ?

[ps2fixer]

Lol I think you mixed up the colors. They should be right next to each other in the connector.

White/blue to White/Green

White/black to red/white

The power/grounding from the machine doesn't matter, it doesn't effect the ohm readings.

[dustrunner]

Sounds like a good place to start with in the am. My throat is so soar its killing me. t.y. again and have a wonderful evening sir.

[ps2fixer]

Sounds good. Remote testing is a brain twister since I can't physically do the tests myself. I normally just start probing around and get an idea of things and go off that data, actually making steps that make sense isn't so easy lol.

[dustrunner]

W/blu to w/g shoots up to 16.6 then drops jumping around a lot. Same with the w/ blk to r/w shoots up to 37.3 then drops jumping alot

[ps2fixer]

What's it drop down to or stabilizes at?

Got thinking on things, you will want the key OFF or else you could pulling power through the meter. Never done that in ohms mode so not 100% sure how the meter would react. The best readings would be reading the bottom of the fuse block instead of back probing, but the same locations as where the wires normally go.

I'm thinking the meter probably has a slow averaging processor in it, so the initial connection might be really high oems, and it's averaging against the connection being solid. If you touch the two meter probes together, you should see the same effect, but maybe a little faster acting.

[oldskool83]

after 3 months I'd of just taken this to a shop....what's your time worth?

[ps2fixer]

Yea I was kind of thinking about that too. On the flip side, if he's just working on it with nothing else todo to make money, then his time is costing him $0 vs sitting and watching TV or w\e. If he's a drinker, it could cost him more money to sit around and be bored drinking than to be actively working on something.

Besides that, electrical problems most shops are not that great with, it's one of those things where you probably have to take it to 3-5 shops to find someone that works there that's good with wire diagrams and finding electrical problems. Maybe my area is just bad, but based on my dad's stories, there's always someone in the car mechanic shops that cut corners and does very questionable quality work. He's one of the guys that has to do the come back work else it keeps coming back and they loose a customer. He's worked at 4+ shops and had the same experience to some degree at all of them. Not saying my dad is the best in the world or anything, he just takes his job with pride, even if it takes a little longer to perform the work than someone else.

Also, your name is oldskool, isn't it old school to repair your own stuff? It's not always about saving money, learning how this stuff works is valuable too.

Anyway, I completely get why someone would want to just pay someone else to do this stuff. To some people, they are wired where this stuff is fun to them. Like I generally enjoy working on cars and atvs and such. If we focused on money too much, no one would ever help other people out because it's not profitable, I'm not making anything helping people here, it's just something I do, nice little challenge and such. I think in 15 years I've been tipped twice, like $1 and $5 and both of those was way back when I helped people with game console repairs.

[dustrunner]

The meter was still jumping around after 5 sec. so I thought that was normal and took leads off. Bottom of fuse block 4 test ? pull fuses out and test were they slide in ?

[oldskool83]

I view my time what I make per hour at fulltime job. I've never seen one brand dealer not be able to fix their specified brand. Old stuff can be tricky but newer stuff techs are trained with shop manuals to trouble shoot. Being anti dealer can cost the stubborn person more. If I make say $20 hr and I have 20 hours I to it that's 20 hrs I cant be playing with my kid or somthing else. Nothing g is free in life, not even time. I hope he figures it out, if not rip it 100% appart and redo, somthing could be rubbed or cut you not seeing. I build a 2015 rancher 4x4 up with 15 miles on it and still found some messed up things like a bad wire....15 miles on machine total!

[ps2fixer]

The way I see it, my time is only worth what I could make in the game given amount of time. I'm self employed so my $/hr changes a lot, but then there's R&D which is a cost and eats up time. It's all a big balance. Spend more on expanding the business, learning, data collection, etc, more potential products can be discovered and made. But the name of the game is, you can't run out of money. Haven't a "normal" job you have the security of getting exactly the same pay per hour and more or less guanteed hours, but the down fall is you're capped to what your employer is willing to spend on you meaning they have to make more than what you're making.

I could outsource all the work I do and just mange the business, but I'd be lucky to make $100/mo since there just isn't enough stuff I make yet to warrant that kind of setup.

I get spending time with the family, like all things in life, you have to find the balance. I remember my dad working 70+ hour weeks just so he could drive a newer truck back in the late 90's, was never home, extra grumpy and pretty much hated life. He changed his viewpoint on life and now just works a 40hr week for less money, has less toys to play with but overall is a lot happier. I'm the same way, went from a stressful job to self employed and I don't know how I could stand life at my last job.


Anyway, on the fuse box stuffs. This is the spot I'm talking about testing in the image below. I know the pin out for the one connector but not the other. Test would be done with the fuses installed but the fuse box disconnected from the machine.

https://i.gyazo.com/cf5db5da294e9622f0b8109c9582a940.jpg

[dustrunner]

260262 meter reads 1. Without being hooked up . is that rite ? Anyways I took probes 2 the r/w and w/ blk and it jumps up a bit but settles at 0. .same way with w/r to w prongs

[ps2fixer]

The meter shows the far left 1 as an "over load" or out of range. Resistance between the probes through the air is so high it can't read it basically. when it reads like 1.0 then it's 1 ohm. That's just the typical thing meters do, same thing my china meter shows.

Anyway fuse box validated good for the actuator circuit and main circuit, can you do the same for the fuel pump fuse/wires? Wouldn't hurt to check the accessory one too. I'm seeing readings I'm expecting so almost done xD.


This is what it's looking like wiring wise and what I'm expecting. Green lines indicate good wire, red wires indicate bad wire. The fuel pump fuse is the only section not validated (fuse box vs bad wire).

https://i.gyazo.com/b0edd236b5b267a476072a7a4854ec41.png

[dustrunner]

The readings jump up then both settle at -0.00

[dustrunner]

A huge thank you to ps2fixer for SOLVING MY PROBLEM. This man is a great person and friend. Now we're is my check book.

[ps2fixer]

Here's an update for anyone finding this from google, here's the full fuse box pin out.

https://i.gyazo.com/9f4e492191f125a4af4ee81e72e5dbae.jpg

And here's a wire function list:

White/Red: Main power source (direct from battery, before fuse)
White: Power source (after fuse)
White/Black: Same as white wire
White/Blue: Same as white wire
White/Green: Fuel Pump power (after fuse) - goes through fuel pump relay to get to fuel pump
Red/White: Actuator Controller power source (after fuse) - controls engine brake actuator & 2wd/4wd actuator
Brown: Accessory Power source (before fuse) - power comes from ignition switch
Brown: Accessory Power (after fuse)


TLDR of this thread, someone poked the white/black and white/blue wires with something (multi meter maybe) and caused the wires to corrode. In the harness the both go directly to the white wire.