Ignition switch need help

[SteveRoll]

hi, new to 3 wheeler world. I have a 83 or 84 honda atc 200 that i bought for a project. I am trying to install a ignition switch but the colors are different for the one i bought at the local parts store. How can figure out which way to wire the three wheeler. I tried wiring in the ignition switch but i am not getting a headlight either. My headlight only has two wires. push starter still works, however this bike has no neutral indicator either.

[350for350]

The best thing to do is to figure out exactly what year and model you have. Then buy the correct ignition switch for it. I believe that the last year for the ATC200 was 1983 and as far as I know, they never had an ignition switch since they were pull start only with no battery. It it's a 1983, it's probably an ATC200E. If it's a 1984, it could be an ATC200ES or an ATC200M.

[SteveRoll]

The best thing to do is to figure out exactly what year and model you have. Then buy the correct ignition switch for it. I believe that the last year for the ATC200 was 1983 and as far as I know, they never had an ignition switch since they were pull start only with no battery. It it's a 1983, it's probably an ATC200E. If it's a 1984, it could be an ATC200ES or an ATC200M.

I think 200e it is chain sprocket drive, has high low. Does Honda still make the ignition switches for the old atcs? Can I hot wire the bike for now to get it running?

[Homeless Dave]

Hot wiring a honda is easy...i did a 125m that had no key. I believe the wire colors changed over the years but the basics are the same. All wires can be disconnected and it will run, there should be 4 wires. 2 of them are the engine ignition circuit, the other 2 run lights. I would take the old switch to a honda dealer and see if they could get you a new key.

[SteveRoll]

Hot wiring a honda is easy...i did a 125m that had no key. I believe the wire colors changed over the years but the basics are the same. All wires can be disconnected and it will run, there should be 4 wires. 2 of them are the engine ignition circuit, the other 2 run lights. I would take the old switch to a honda dealer and see if they could get you a new key.

Okay, will look into it. It needs a new switch as my last switch was corroded and now is completely apart / missing things

[ps2fixer]

Look up the frame VIN number and Engine serial number at the site below to tell us exactly what model you have.

http://atvmanual.com/honda/interactive-vin-decoder-atv-and-atc

Different models and years had slightly different wiring, general rule of thumb for Honda 3 wheelers is green = ground, and if it has black/white wire, that's your kill wire. If it doesn't have black/white, then generally it's just solid black. Most of the 3 wheelers operate where the kill switch shorts the kill wire to the green wire so "hot wiring" them is very simple, disconnect the ignition switch and handle bar controls and kick/pull start it and it should fire. If not you have other issues most likely.

Ignition switches are not universal, wiring, sizes, and wire lengths changed. There's one switch size that's very common that might be labeled as universal, but there's no true standard for ignition switches and you have to figure out the wiring on the switch you have, and match it up with the wiring on the machine you have (sometimes changes year to year).

If you can get me the details on what exact machine you have, then I can help with actual wiring tips.

I modify ignition switches for different applications as part of my business, so 99% chance I have a ready to plug and play option if you don't want to mess with the wiring, just will need to know the year and model of your machine. Honda made something like 80 3 wheeler models (year + models counted) and roughly 30-50% of them had ignition switches. Also FYI, any machine with out a factory ignition switch can have one wired in, but it either requires a Y adapter or modification on the wiring (the old machines are pretty simple, the newer machines are not so easy).

FYI, Honda does make some ignition switches yet, but a ton of them are out of production for this era of machine.

If you have no luck with the VIN or engine serial, photos of your machine likely can get us enough into to atleast identify the model.

The 200E mentioned before is chain drive with high and low range, while the 200ES is shaft drive with high and low range. There were other chain drive models with high and low range too, but I can't remember all of them off the top of my head, only one I can think of is the ATC90 but that didn't have an ignition switch.

The headlight comment having only two wires is very odd, a ton of the 3 wheelers used 3 wire headlights, green, white, and blue and the handle bar controls had high and low beam.

Just to get an idea of the model options, here's 1983 and 1984 models.

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/atv/1983

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/atv/1984


If it's an 83 and has a stock ignition switch, it would have to be the ATC200E, for 84 stock machines with ignition switches are ATC125M, ATC200ES, ATC200M, TRX200, of those only the 125m and 200m are chain drive and a 3 wheeler, both I think have hi/low range too, both pull start etc.

If you have any issues with the vin decoder, let me know since it's my site and trying to keep it as accurate as possible.

[350for350]

Partzilla has a new switch listed for $64.44. It's not cheap, but at least it's genuine Honda.

[SteveRoll]

Okay thanks. I was sizing up the atc, it is a 200e with a 200m harness on it. the colors match the 200m however the engine and stuff is for a 200e with the high low gear.
Is there an upgrade option to put a rear disc brake on for these machines?

[ps2fixer]

The 200m changed wiring 84 vs 85. Easy way to tell is check the wiring the ignition switch plugs into. 84 has Black, Green, Red, and Yellow/Red, while the 85 is Black/White, Green, Red, Black.

If you have a multi meter, the switch you bought should have two wires shorted while off, and the opposite two wires shorted when on. The "OFF" wires connect to Black & Green for 84, or Black/White & Green for 85. The "ON" wires connect to Red & Yellow/Red for 84, or Red & Black for 85.

If you want to avoid that, I also mod aftermarket switches for those models so literately match up the colors and it's plug and play.


84 200m & 200e/200es - https://www.ebay.com/itm/192035280253
85 200m - https://www.ebay.com/itm/201745079896

Both are effectively the same, just the wire colors are the difference.

If you prefer OEM, the 84 200m one is still in production for the $64.44 price - https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/35010-958-680?ref=806f39f9c3ddcb5d6ec0c8feb3aaf22d1ed390ae
The 85 switch is out of production, but you could use the OEM switch above, just have to use the right wires as the colors won't be correct. Here's a reference in that case.


85 200m harness -> 84 ignition switch
Black -> Yellow/Red
Red -> Red
Black/White > Black
Green -> Green


I have no experience with any disk brake conversions so can't really help with that, drum brakes have always performed fine for me plus they are sealed on some machines so water/mud doesn't effect the brakes.

[SteveRoll]

the harness has those exact colors you mentioned! Black, Green, Red, and Yellow/Red. Thank you. I will try wiring the cheap switch for the time being as this will be my winter project. I have been watching a man on youtube who modifies chinese wire harnesses on atcs as well. interesting stuff!

Also noticed on the wiring harness the headlight needs a ground wire. My headlight has only a blue and white wire coming out of it.

[ps2fixer]

I reproduce that headlight wire too lol. Also I don't bother with Chinese wiring, their wire is total garbage and that's not even looking at their ultra thin terminals that barely hold together. Anything I mod that originates from China I completely rewire. I color match everything to OEM so it's easier to trouble shoot down the road if there's ever an electrical problem (OEM wire diagrams are still accurate). Looks like I didn't make an ebay listing for the ground wire, so here's the 3ww shop link for it instead.

http://shop.3wheelerworld.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=304_307_316&product_id=424


Also I mod new headlight sockets, they aren't OEM quality, but they fill the spot fine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192777787408


Basically I make and mod anything electrical for 3 wheelers from just about any source possible (aftermarket, newer OEM parts, and some stuff I make 100% myself).

[SteveRoll]

I reproduce that headlight wire too lol. Also I don't bother with Chinese wiring, their wire is total garbage and that's not even looking at their ultra thin terminals that barely hold together. Anything I mod that originates from China I completely rewire. I color match everything to OEM so it's easier to trouble shoot down the road if there's ever an electrical problem (OEM wire diagrams are still accurate). Looks like I didn't make an ebay listing for the ground wire, so here's the 3ww shop link for it instead.

http://shop.3wheelerworld.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=304_307_316&product_id=424


Also I mod new headlight sockets, they aren't OEM quality, but they fill the spot fine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192777787408


Basically I make and mod anything electrical for 3 wheelers from just about any source possible (aftermarket, newer OEM parts, and some stuff I make 100% myself).

Thank you for help. I got the ignition wires up for now. Everything seems be working on the machine. Going to test for spark and see if it runs! What are common ways to lift the 200 model trikes? I’m interested in running a set of 27 or 28 inch tires.

[SteveRoll]

Thanks for all the help. I got the ignition switched wired up for now and the headlight works properly. The only thing major left to figure out is the no spark. Tail light works, electric start works, tried pulling the spark plug it was fouled and no spark. I’m going to get a few more plugs and go through the manual to troubleshoot. The carb needs to be cleaned too I would say. I bought the 200 off a old man who had parked it for x number of years

[ps2fixer]

I've seen cases where the engine didn't have spark while cranking, still doesn't make much sense to me, but for testing reasons it might be best to use the recoil when testing.

On the normal usage side of things, the kill switch and ignition switch can be disconnected completely to avoid them causing no spark (they are just a switch and they short two wires together to kill the engine so disconnected means it's in "run" state). To kill the engine, simply connect one of the two together and use the kill switch or ignition switch assuming you get spark.

If no spark at this stage, then it's down to tracking down a electrical related issue, wiring, or somehow something isn't wired up (look for splices, cut wires, electrical tape etc). In the ignition system section of the service manual, run through the ohm tests for the exciter coil, ignition coil, pulse generator. You need a somewhat high quality multi meter to test the low ohm readings when it gets around 20 and lower ohms. You can get an idea how accurate a meter is by shorting the probes together while reading ohms, it should read 0.0 ohms or very close. I've used cheap china multi meters that read 5-20 ohms with the probes shorted together, there's some things that can be done to make it better, but it basically boils down to poor/low build quality.

If all electrical ohm specs are within the expected ranges, you're down to wiring or CDI. If you know anyone with a similar machine, let me know and I can look up if the CDI will interchange w\o mods to test for spark, the biggest thing is having the CDI with the same connector, but the secondary thing is the actual pin out which did change on some models including some safety systems that may or may not trigger when swapped.

If you get this far and still have the issue, I can help you test the harness. Might be easier to perform the ohm tests again but directly at the CDI connector and any mention of ground use the green wire instead.

Something should clearly be out of whack if the issue is directly electrical related. There's always the possible mechanical related issues too, like the pulse generator gap being too large.


FYI, lighting, charging, starting, and battery are all 100% isolated from the ignition system, the only common part is the ignition switch, but electrically they are still isolated. It sounds like once you get the engine running, you'll have lights, electric start, and hopefully the battery will charge just fine.

Here's a very simple run down of how the CDI system works.

Exciter coil provides a high voltage AC power to the CDI box
Pulse generator (also called a pickup coil) tells the CDI box when to release the charge
Ignition coil takes the ~50-400v charge and steps the voltage to very high voltage (in 1000's of volts) to go to the spark plug to create spark.

The whole system effectively MUST have a common ground to the engine which the green wire in the harness is responsible for and generally has a ring terminal near the ignition coil or on the ignition coil.

As for safety systems, there are NONE on the 200E when using the recoil starter (it can be started in gear/reverse), of course the ignition switch and kill switch have to be to run or be disconnected. If you use electric start, the starter motor should only work while in neutral with the starter button pressed, ignition switch on. FYI, it is possible to crank the engine with the kill switch set to off.

Hopefully this gives you a good direction to go with the issue to isolate atleast where the issue relates to. Let us know what you find.

[SteveRoll]

I've seen cases where the engine didn't have spark while cranking, still doesn't make much sense to me, but for testing reasons it might be best to use the recoil when testing.

On the normal usage side of things, the kill switch and ignition switch can be disconnected completely to avoid them causing no spark (they are just a switch and they short two wires together to kill the engine so disconnected means it's in "run" state). To kill the engine, simply connect one of the two together and use the kill switch or ignition switch assuming you get spark.

If no spark at this stage, then it's down to tracking down a electrical related issue, wiring, or somehow something isn't wired up (look for splices, cut wires, electrical tape etc). In the ignition system section of the service manual, run through the ohm tests for the exciter coil, ignition coil, pulse generator. You need a somewhat high quality multi meter to test the low ohm readings when it gets around 20 and lower ohms. You can get an idea how accurate a meter is by shorting the probes together while reading ohms, it should read 0.0 ohms or very close. I've used cheap china multi meters that read 5-20 ohms with the probes shorted together, there's some things that can be done to make it better, but it basically boils down to poor/low build quality.

If all electrical ohm specs are within the expected ranges, you're down to wiring or CDI. If you know anyone with a similar machine, let me know and I can look up if the CDI will interchange w\o mods to test for spark, the biggest thing is having the CDI with the same connector, but the secondary thing is the actual pin out which did change on some models including some safety systems that may or may not trigger when swapped.

If you get this far and still have the issue, I can help you test the harness. Might be easier to perform the ohm tests again but directly at the CDI connector and any mention of ground use the green wire instead.

Something should clearly be out of whack if the issue is directly electrical related. There's always the possible mechanical related issues too, like the pulse generator gap being too large.


FYI, lighting, charging, starting, and battery are all 100% isolated from the ignition system, the only common part is the ignition switch, but electrically they are still isolated. It sounds like once you get the engine running, you'll have lights, electric start, and hopefully the battery will charge just fine.

Here's a very simple run down of how the CDI system works.

Exciter coil provides a high voltage AC power to the CDI box
Pulse generator (also called a pickup coil) tells the CDI box when to release the charge
Ignition coil takes the ~50-400v charge and steps the voltage to very high voltage (in 1000's of volts) to go to the spark plug to create spark.

The whole system effectively MUST have a common ground to the engine which the green wire in the harness is responsible for and generally has a ring terminal near the ignition coil or on the ignition coil.

As for safety systems, there are NONE on the 200E when using the recoil starter (it can be started in gear/reverse), of course the ignition switch and kill switch have to be to run or be disconnected. If you use electric start, the starter motor should only work while in neutral with the starter button pressed, ignition switch on. FYI, it is possible to crank the engine with the kill switch set to off.

Hopefully this gives you a good direction to go with the issue to isolate atleast where the issue relates to. Let us know what you find.

Well, I started troubleshooting and found some problems right away.I disconnected the kill switch and the ignition switch and no spark still. Tried different spark plugs as well. I noticed the pullstart tends to pull back on this machine. I tried the decompression lever while checking spark to make it easier to pull over. The decompression lever seemed to be stuck and then giving myself no compression. I took off the recoil and noticed the bolt that hold the recoil on was loose! and slopping around... not sure if that matters but i will have to correct that!

[ps2fixer]

Yea get the recoil fixed up, it doesn't directly have an effect on the spark, bug there is a min speed the engine has to turn to get spark.

[SteveRoll]

Yea get the recoil fixed up, it doesn't directly have an effect on the spark, bug there is a min speed the engine has to turn to get spark.

Hi, I tested several items and possibly have more then one issue.Here are the readings as follows:
Ignition switch good
Engine stop switch good
Neutral has good continuity in neutral

Alternator
Red black wire to ground 196 ohms. AC voltage produced varies from 25 volts up to 30's AC

Pulse Generator
Green to ground showing no connection or OL on my meter
Blue yellow across green wire 27 ohms

New ignition coil checks out
0.4 ohms on terminal
2k ohm across secondary

Old ignition coil seems faulty
Variable ohms across terminal 0.8 ohm to 10 Mohm
Across secondary 8.2k ohm

Noticed a few issues and possible issue.
On pulse generator green wiring seems frayed or week at the bullet connector coming out of the generator/ pulser.
Upon removing the cover, quickly noticed it is very dirty with rust.
I'm able to move the rotating part but it makes a audible rattle sound.
The pickup coil looks very rusted off.. ( i was going to check the gap ).
Can i buy a aftermarket one of these new?
Also how can i make all connections watertight

[ps2fixer]

FYI, reading voltage off the exciter coil isn't possible with a standard meter, there's an adapter called a peak voltage tester that will let you know the max voltage it sees. Typical spec is around 100v, AC readings are in RMS and the frequency and voltage changes with engine rpm. 196ohms should be within spec though.

Pulse generator green wire not connecting to ground depends where you tested it, on the engine side that's normal, the coil shows as isolated and it grounds through the harness (japanese typical design, dedicated grounds to sensors and such, american design typically grounds through the mounting bolts atleast for older stuff).

Secondary coil in the ignition coil seems a bit low, service manual I'm looking at says the spec is 3.6-4.4k ohms with spark plug cap removed.


Old ignition coil sounds like you had a poor connection when reading the primary, possible it could be a bad coil wire where it gets connection and a slight movement and it looses connection. Generally speaking the coils either read dead short, open circuit, or very high ohms and doesn't fluctuate. 10M ohms could just be the meter reading your skin resistance. On my skin today, my meter reads 0.4M ohms lol.

Looks like your pulse generator springs rusted apart. It basically works with 2 weights that the springs pull in, and at high rpm they swing out. When the weights move, it changes the location of the magnet on the rotor in relation to the cam (mechanical advancement for ignition spark). VVTi systems work similar on modern engines but they adjust the cam vs timing belt relation for mechanical engine timing on top of the ignition timing effects.

Here are the correct springs assuming the rest of the rotor is fine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/201737940132

For the black box where the wires comes out, that's the actual pickup coil. The iron core can be magnetized a bit and pick up metal chunks from the springs and such and really mess up the signal, so I'd wiped it off and get as much as you can off it, set the gap, and see if you get any signs of spark. Doesn't matter if the springs are there or not, it should still spark just won't be at the right time.

Depending how much you're willing to spend, you can buy the whole assembly from Honda yet, I'm not aware of any aftermarket options, just used or new OEM.

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/30220-427-154?ref=88404f20a76d5bb48b75c057e0d3964e90cfa28b

That part is #3 in this diagram which includes the rotor, springs, mounting bolt and washer. It does not include the pickup coil though and that part is out of production. I've been wanting to sample some other options from newer engines, but haven't had a chance to try them. The XL series engines kept the same design of engine for quite a while, that's where the springs above are source from you can't directly buy the springs from honda per the 200es model since it was sold as a whole unit only.

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/atv/1983/atc200e-a-big-red/pulse-generator

Anyway, the test you did shows electronically the pickup coil should be good, so gapped and being cleaned might make it spark. Wiring could be repaired with a pig tail, depending where the damage is and such (I can make them for nearly any connector on the 3 wheelers).




Making the connectors water tight would effectively require a whole harness to be made and all supporting electronics getting the OEM terminals cut off and replaced with a sealed connector. I could do it but it would be fairly expensive. The next best option is dielectric silicone, it's a plastic and rubber safe grease that makes connections water resistant while lubricating the connection and being a form of anti corrosive. Only down side is that it's a bit of a mess to work with later down the road and the fact dust/dirt will collect on any exposed areas. Also since it's not truely water proofing it, reapplication could be required if you ride in mud/water often, but under normal cases it should last a long time.


So far it's looking like ignition coil could be the issue, but it's kind of near the okish range for a cheap coil, assuming it's a china made generic coil. Generally speaking buying used OEM would be better than new chinese assuming the used one works. Also honda lists the coil new still for your machine, so you could get a proper OEM one and know you have the right part.

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/30500-VM3-405?ref=25aa28c55d690fb8d33fda96bb49546677d3b089

If you replace the ignition coil, it wouldn't hurt to also get a new spark plug cap.

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/30700-152-163?ref=25aa28c55d690fb8d33fda96bb49546677d3b089

Besides that, you have the pickup coil thing going on, and possible wire connection issues (the fraying on the wire you mentioned).


What I'd do personally is clean, gap, and do what you can with the pulse generator to get it as good as you can with out buying parts yet and test for spark. If no spark, then repeat the ohm tests you did before, but directly at the CDI connector. This will tell us if from the CDI to the parts is good. If suddenly it's a bit higher ohms it could be a poor connection, or no connection could be a broken wire or a corroded terminal. Sadly there isn't a great way to test the CDI box, so it's either swap with a known working unit, or try another used OEM unit (hopefully working) to validate if that's a problem or not, but it's normally a last case to replace.

Also FYI, the pulse generator with no springs typically do rattle. I've always worked with used ones though, never had a new one in hand so not sure how much rattle/free play is from design vs wear. I haven't ran into one yet that was worn out. I've seen the springs rusted/broken and ones that were rusted up where they didn't move freely.

Few possible sources of the no spark and a semi related issue (the springs), so far not too bad since for the most part things are making sense electrically to me =). Hopefully you can see some spark after cleaning up the pickup coil and just need the springs to bring it back to life. For the most part it seems the wiring fails before the electronics do on these things, but then again most electrical issues I've seen also was paired up with someone rigging up the harness and such.

Good luck with the diag work, atleast you are coming across things that might make an effect.

[SteveRoll]

Hi, thank you for the highly informative response. I did as you mentioned, cleaned up the pick up coil and cleaned up the pulse generator. Scrapped the sensor with a blade a little bit as well. I lost one or the screws that holds the sensor on, fell somewhere. I’ll have to get another one of those. However I set the gap to somewhere in the middle for the spec, 0.018 I think I settled on. I tested the spark again after this. And I now have spark!
Few observations, one spring is missing off the mechanical advance. It only has one spring on it. So I need to buy the springs you linked and also need to get another one of those tiny screws I lost for the sensor.
Next project is cleaning the carb and using the di electric grease on all connections and then slowly reassemble everything!
Also simple question but I’m curious through troubleshooting the wire harness, this 3 wheeler has the extra yellow with red for what’s suppose to be a neutral light. Can I just get any small led light and hook it up to this lead and then have a functional neutral light on the 200 big red?

Also is there anything else you recommend checking?
Thank you

[ps2fixer]

For the screw, nothing is listed even for the newest models before they went away from the pulse generator design on the cam with the mechanical advancer (the "updated" design they moved it to the crank and no advancment, it's 100% in the CDI box). However Honda uses some nice standard part number formats for generic parts like bolts/screws. The trick is you need the sizes in mm.

On partzilla search the part number, and it will plaster out a ton of options. To get the part number use this format:

93892-xx0yy

Where xx is the size around for the threaded part, and the yy part is the size in length. Not sure if length is based on the shank/shaft size of the screw or the overall length though. They are cheap enough you could probably get both, or base the measurement on another bolt to solve the mystery.

For example, the two screws that holds the pulse generator plate on are 5mm by 12mm long which the OEM part number is 93500-05012-0A. If we use the number above we can get another screw that's the same size. The first number is a part type, so maybe it's because the screw is classified as part of a different assembly or generic use vs specialized section. Here's the completed part number:

93892-05012

If you search that on partzilla you see this listing

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/93892-05012-00

Vs OEM

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/93500-05012-0A

And I see why the prefix is different, the one above has a lock washer built into the screw while the other doesn't. I'm pretty sure the screws you need will have the lock washer though, but you could apply the same to the other prefix number (93500).

Since it's all metric, you could try to screw one of the screws I mentioned into the spot you're missing a screw to see if the size around is the correct size. If it matches you just need to figure out the length difference from the one screw you have yet (guessing like 6-10mm long). If you need under 10, make sure you use like 08 for 8mm since the part numbers require the same number of characters as their standard.

Same logic can be applied to just about every bolt, nut, washer, etc. Thread pitch I'm not sure if it's related at the end of the part number (00 and 0A), or if it's apart of the prefix number. Finer and coarser thread is generally for special applications like flywheel bolt/nut, or lug nuts so for those kinds of parts probably best to stick with the OEM number.

Hopefully that made sense, I've done a lot of research on Honda standards and such, but this was just from the top of my mind. This applys to the two number part numbers (5 len - 5 len - nothing or 2 len format). There's a different standard for machine related parts like 90% of the other stuff (5 len - 3 len - 3 len - nothing or 2 len) which the middle (first 3 len) part is to denote that original machine the part was designed for, like the 83 200e parts probably relate to the 82 model for the big red only parts, and another older machine like the 80 atc185 for more generic parts for the platform like related to the engine. This is a way people can research what machines relate together and how.


Onto the wiring question. Yellow/Red on your machine is "switched power" which means whenever the ignition switch is turned on, that wire has power. It's what feeds the lights and starter system (relay/low power side). If you wanted, you could swap in a dash from another machine with the neutral indicator. The 200ES comes to mind, but it also has reverse. I think the 200m or 84-85 125m had a neutral light but no reverse and the dash should be similar to bolt on. Catcher is the choke cable, have to make sure that exists on the other dash too. For the actual wiring for the neutral light, you'd need an adapter and the light socket from the target machine (or a new one I make). There is an extra connection point on the Yellow/Red wire to give the bulb power, so as long as the sub harness for the dash light has a male terminal for yellow/red or black/brown that should match up well. The other side would go to the neutral safety switch. On your machine it's only used for the starter button as a safety feature (no electric start unless in neutral, but you can pull start in gear no problem). It's pretty easy for me to make a short adapter so there's an extra connection point for the dash light. Here's a screen shot of the wire diagram with my notes on it in red to make it a little easier to follow. The boxy shaped terminals are the bullet female (the yellow/red is a 2x female) and the triangle side is the male. If you look at the green wire, you can see a 3 or 4 way female with the 3 male terminals coming off of it. Wire diagrams communicate a lot of info while trying to not look too complicated =).

https://i.gyazo.com/323279ff167f5e35b1beb437fe29e912.png

Just to compare, here's the 84 atc125m setup, almost an exact match on the wiring diagram with just a couple of things changed plus the neutral light. I highlighted the connection points in red again. The adapter needed would be a female to two males since your harness currently only has one male terminal. I suspect this is a neat upgrade a lot of people would like to do, maybe I should make an almost complete kit (minus dash).

https://i.gyazo.com/3c0cdeb247c3cbe08e3c7e2a016f330e.png


FYI, the 85 year is the same setup, just the switched power wire changed to the more modern color combo of black/brown.

Here's the neutral socket / sub harness I make for the 84 atc125m just to give an idea on price. Also it fits the atc200m, so I guess my memory wasn't too bad earlier when I mentioned that machine.



FYI, it's best to refer to your machine as a 200E or ATC200E, it tells people exactly what you have. The 200 big red would include the 200ES which is quite a lot different (more complicated plus shaft drive, reverse, a pretty crazy safety system, etc) and also one of the ATC200 models was called a big red on partzilla, but it's not the same at all besides the engine being effectively the same. There's a LOT of 200cc models lol.


Anyway, for the harness side of things, most critical is the ignition system. Lighting/Charging would be the secondary system that's needed but if it fails worst case you have no lights or a dead battery. Sticking with harnesses, about the only thing you could look for is damaged/pinched wires and seal the insulation where there's any damage (liquid electrical tape works well). The wiring should be flexible and no exposed copper except at the terminal crimps. If it's hard as a rock, the insulation will break, exposing the copper and over time it will either break the wire off, or corrode the copper enough to make it high resistance and eventually fall apart too. Worst case a wire could short out but there is a fuse so the battery can't make the wires red hot. These machines are getting old enough where the wiring is aging and not much can be done about the effects except keeping the machines out of the sun and weather. Being stored inside in a heated space probably gives the best longevity for the whole machine, but that's not always practical (I'm talking 10+ years of owning the machine). Anyway, your machine is quite simple, not a whole lot that can go wrong which is basically true for all 3 wheelers.

For more generic things to check, fluid levels (engine oil I think is the only fluid I can think of on your machine), grease points, lube the chain, inspect the sprockets for wear, check for gearing slop (front wheel, rear axle, and steering stem). Here's the maintenance schedule for your machine, if you treat it as if everything is expired/time to check you should be golden for typical maintenance. Beyond that it's just looking for odd noises, vibrations while riding, anything that makes you think "what is that" while riding kind of like driving a car until you hear the wheel bearings starting to grumble, or the brakes start to squeak.

https://i.gyazo.com/55a7db3be55a7dd2928067a32537c62c.png


Oh, it's on the list, but be sure to check the oil filter rotor as it says, it's really common on machines I've bought that it's never been cleaned. The service manual will go into the details on how to check everything in their related sections. Good luck and now that you have spark, once you get the springs it should fire up. It's very common to need to clean the carb after a machine sits, so you could be proactive and clean it while waiting on the springs. There's guides all over the web that generically cover how to clean an atv carb. There's a post here that's well detailed, but it's not for this exact model.

Talking about the carb, the OEM one is marked/stamped with PD55A. If the numbers don't match you could check what machine it's from at the link below. If there's no marks, it could be a China clone carb. Generally it's accepted here that used OEM is better than new Chinese, but either one will likely require work. Used OEM will likely need cleaning, possible new gaskets, clean/replace jets, etc. The Chinese ones generally come tuned incorrectly for your machine, so new (Good) jets and knowing how to tune might be a requirement since you can't just go off OEM specs with their carbs (should be close I'd think though). China carbs use super cheap jets so probably a factor of quality control, or tolerance levels since some people have great results, while others have running issues.


Anyway, having progress every post is a nice thing, glad things continue to move forward.

[SteveRoll]

For the screw, nothing is listed even for the newest models before they went away from the pulse generator design on the cam with the mechanical advancer (the "updated" design they moved it to the crank and no advancment, it's 100% in the CDI box). However Honda uses some nice standard part number formats for generic parts like bolts/screws. The trick is you need the sizes in mm.

On partzilla search the part number, and it will plaster out a ton of options. To get the part number use this format:

93892-xx0yy

Where xx is the size around for the threaded part, and the yy part is the size in length. Not sure if length is based on the shank/shaft size of the screw or the overall length though. They are cheap enough you could probably get both, or base the measurement on another bolt to solve the mystery.

For example, the two screws that holds the pulse generator plate on are 5mm by 12mm long which the OEM part number is 93500-05012-0A. If we use the number above we can get another screw that's the same size. The first number is a part type, so maybe it's because the screw is classified as part of a different assembly or generic use vs specialized section. Here's the completed part number:

93892-05012

If you search that on partzilla you see this listing

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/93892-05012-00

Vs OEM

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/93500-05012-0A

And I see why the prefix is different, the one above has a lock washer built into the screw while the other doesn't. I'm pretty sure the screws you need will have the lock washer though, but you could apply the same to the other prefix number (93500).

Since it's all metric, you could try to screw one of the screws I mentioned into the spot you're missing a screw to see if the size around is the correct size. If it matches you just need to figure out the length difference from the one screw you have yet (guessing like 6-10mm long). If you need under 10, make sure you use like 08 for 8mm since the part numbers require the same number of characters as their standard.

Same logic can be applied to just about every bolt, nut, washer, etc. Thread pitch I'm not sure if it's related at the end of the part number (00 and 0A), or if it's apart of the prefix number. Finer and coarser thread is generally for special applications like flywheel bolt/nut, or lug nuts so for those kinds of parts probably best to stick with the OEM number.

Hopefully that made sense, I've done a lot of research on Honda standards and such, but this was just from the top of my mind. This applys to the two number part numbers (5 len - 5 len - nothing or 2 len format). There's a different standard for machine related parts like 90% of the other stuff (5 len - 3 len - 3 len - nothing or 2 len) which the middle (first 3 len) part is to denote that original machine the part was designed for, like the 83 200e parts probably relate to the 82 model for the big red only parts, and another older machine like the 80 atc185 for more generic parts for the platform like related to the engine. This is a way people can research what machines relate together and how.


Onto the wiring question. Yellow/Red on your machine is "switched power" which means whenever the ignition switch is turned on, that wire has power. It's what feeds the lights and starter system (relay/low power side). If you wanted, you could swap in a dash from another machine with the neutral indicator. The 200ES comes to mind, but it also has reverse. I think the 200m or 84-85 125m had a neutral light but no reverse and the dash should be similar to bolt on. Catcher is the choke cable, have to make sure that exists on the other dash too. For the actual wiring for the neutral light, you'd need an adapter and the light socket from the target machine (or a new one I make). There is an extra connection point on the Yellow/Red wire to give the bulb power, so as long as the sub harness for the dash light has a male terminal for yellow/red or black/brown that should match up well. The other side would go to the neutral safety switch. On your machine it's only used for the starter button as a safety feature (no electric start unless in neutral, but you can pull start in gear no problem). It's pretty easy for me to make a short adapter so there's an extra connection point for the dash light. Here's a screen shot of the wire diagram with my notes on it in red to make it a little easier to follow. The boxy shaped terminals are the bullet female (the yellow/red is a 2x female) and the triangle side is the male. If you look at the green wire, you can see a 3 or 4 way female with the 3 male terminals coming off of it. Wire diagrams communicate a lot of info while trying to not look too complicated =).

https://i.gyazo.com/323279ff167f5e35b1beb437fe29e912.png

Just to compare, here's the 84 atc125m setup, almost an exact match on the wiring diagram with just a couple of things changed plus the neutral light. I highlighted the connection points in red again. The adapter needed would be a female to two males since your harness currently only has one male terminal. I suspect this is a neat upgrade a lot of people would like to do, maybe I should make an almost complete kit (minus dash).

https://i.gyazo.com/3c0cdeb247c3cbe08e3c7e2a016f330e.png


FYI, the 85 year is the same setup, just the switched power wire changed to the more modern color combo of black/brown.

Here's the neutral socket / sub harness I make for the 84 atc125m just to give an idea on price. Also it fits the atc200m, so I guess my memory wasn't too bad earlier when I mentioned that machine.



FYI, it's best to refer to your machine as a 200E or ATC200E, it tells people exactly what you have. The 200 big red would include the 200ES which is quite a lot different (more complicated plus shaft drive, reverse, a pretty crazy safety system, etc) and also one of the ATC200 models was called a big red on partzilla, but it's not the same at all besides the engine being effectively the same. There's a LOT of 200cc models lol.


Anyway, for the harness side of things, most critical is the ignition system. Lighting/Charging would be the secondary system that's needed but if it fails worst case you have no lights or a dead battery. Sticking with harnesses, about the only thing you could look for is damaged/pinched wires and seal the insulation where there's any damage (liquid electrical tape works well). The wiring should be flexible and no exposed copper except at the terminal crimps. If it's hard as a rock, the insulation will break, exposing the copper and over time it will either break the wire off, or corrode the copper enough to make it high resistance and eventually fall apart too. Worst case a wire could short out but there is a fuse so the battery can't make the wires red hot. These machines are getting old enough where the wiring is aging and not much can be done about the effects except keeping the machines out of the sun and weather. Being stored inside in a heated space probably gives the best longevity for the whole machine, but that's not always practical (I'm talking 10+ years of owning the machine). Anyway, your machine is quite simple, not a whole lot that can go wrong which is basically true for all 3 wheelers.

For more generic things to check, fluid levels (engine oil I think is the only fluid I can think of on your machine), grease points, lube the chain, inspect the sprockets for wear, check for gearing slop (front wheel, rear axle, and steering stem). Here's the maintenance schedule for your machine, if you treat it as if everything is expired/time to check you should be golden for typical maintenance. Beyond that it's just looking for odd noises, vibrations while riding, anything that makes you think "what is that" while riding kind of like driving a car until you hear the wheel bearings starting to grumble, or the brakes start to squeak.

https://i.gyazo.com/55a7db3be55a7dd2928067a32537c62c.png


Oh, it's on the list, but be sure to check the oil filter rotor as it says, it's really common on machines I've bought that it's never been cleaned. The service manual will go into the details on how to check everything in their related sections. Good luck and now that you have spark, once you get the springs it should fire up. It's very common to need to clean the carb after a machine sits, so you could be proactive and clean it while waiting on the springs. There's guides all over the web that generically cover how to clean an atv carb. There's a post here that's well detailed, but it's not for this exact model.

Talking about the carb, the OEM one is marked/stamped with PD55A. If the numbers don't match you could check what machine it's from at the link below. If there's no marks, it could be a China clone carb. Generally it's accepted here that used OEM is better than new Chinese, but either one will likely require work. Used OEM will likely need cleaning, possible new gaskets, clean/replace jets, etc. The Chinese ones generally come tuned incorrectly for your machine, so new (Good) jets and knowing how to tune might be a requirement since you can't just go off OEM specs with their carbs (should be close I'd think though). China carbs use super cheap jets so probably a factor of quality control, or tolerance levels since some people have great results, while others have running issues.


Anyway, having progress every post is a nice thing, glad things continue to move forward.

Thanks. I will do as above. With regards to the carb, its still oem. I'm going to take it apart tonight and start cleaning it. I've heard mixed reviews about the china carb. I still am interested in doing a disc brake swap on this machine for simplicity and reliability of a disc brake. I am currently trying to research the best option, it would also be nice to get a set of 26 or 27 inch tires to have this little 3 wheeler a bit aggressive. Its not in very clean shape so this machine i'd like to make it as a trails bike and eventually pick up a nice clean one for groomed trails or easy riding.
:cool:

[ps2fixer]

Since the 200e has low range, the 26in+ tires shouldn't be a problem power wise, worst case might just have to run it in low range more often. I ran 25in tires on my 200es and it went everywhere I wanted it to go. On my 250es I threw on some 25in outlaws (like a tractor tire), but because the tread is so deep, it bottomed out a lot easier like they were 23in. As long as I wasn't dragging bottom too bad, it would make it through anything just putting around. For the 250 I wish they were 26-27in, while the 200es it seemed just fine with 25in. Different weights of machines I guess, since the 250es is quite a bit heavier. Up here in Michigan we get a lot of swamp and mud land and my 250sx does pretty well with 22in stock tires, just can't hit the big deep mud holes.

Good news is, with a light machine, you can just pick up the back end and scoot it over if you get stuck. Not as easy with a quad. Not sure what your area is like for riding or your riding style, but if you like going faster and blaze down the trails, the 350x, 250sx, 250r, and 200x are all good options. My personal favorite is the 350x, then 250sx, a lot of people like the 2 stroke power so the 250r is a common go to, and the 200x is the 350x's little bother and is much more common to find and normally a lower price too. All of those machines are full suspended and the 200x has effectively the same engine as your 200e with out the transfer case, no electric start, and it's higher compression.

For mud, the 200e should be fine, but it's still a chain drive and chains don't like mud/dirt etc. Shaft drive is normally best, so 200es if you like the hard tail format, or move up to the 250es or 250sx. The smaller lighter machines do really well in mud too, but they are all chain drive. Like a atc90, 110, or 125m would float over the mud easier just from the light machine and big balloon tires. The 250sx is more of a sports version of the 250es (same engine in both), and there's some mods for the 250sx to make it pretty nice, 350x or 200x front end swap, and there's a rear swing arm to give you +3 length to clear 25in+ tires. The 250sx is higher geared for speed, so you could swap some things with the 250es machine to get lower gearing. The 250es engine in the 250sx frame with the 250es rear diff would be the lowest gearing with out doing major mods like primary gear reduction swap from another engine (TRX300 I think).

Not sure about the facts on disk vs drum being more reliable or less reliable. Mechanical drum brakes are pretty simple, worst thing is the brake arm shaft getting rusty and hard to turn which makes the brakes drag. After a new set of shoes and adjusting the brakes right, I can always lock up the front and rear tires just fine. Only exception to that is a China quad I worked on, mechanical drum brakes in the front, and hydraulic disc in the back. I can pull all I want on the front brakes, but they do almost nothing, but the drums are so tiny, I'm talking like 3in around while the rear disc is like 6-7in. Rear didn't work very well till I hard braked once and it clicked and suddenly the rear brakes worked great. I guess the slide system for the rear caliper was a poor design/copy and didn't move very freely. I think it comes down to proper design over if it's drum vs disc. In race applications, disc hands down, but that's because they cool better.

I'm not sure off hand how the 200e rear drum brakes are setup, but the 200es rear drums are sealed well for water/mud etc. The 250es/sx I'd say is a design that's less sealed, but they continued using the same basic design for a long time, like my dad's 2003 foreman uses the same basic design for the rear drum sealing system.

My experience with disc brakes and mud was with a 1999 Yamaha 350 Warrior. The OEM set lasted for a while, once the pads wore out, we tried like 3 or so new sets of pads and they all wore out so fast they'd last a month or less. Not sure if it was just no name china pads, or if the mud/dirt was causing the fast wear (I wasn't the one buying them). I just learned to ride as if the machine had no brakes (engine braking etc) and only used the front brakes when I had to. I use the same riding style on 3 wheelers unless I'm trying to go fast like racing. Brakes last a lot longer, and the deceleration engine braking sucks up oil around the rings, so engine wear shouldn't be a problem. Semi Truckers use a similar tactic with their "Jake Brake" which is basically engine braking + a flap in the exhaust to restrict it more.

[SteveRoll]

Is there any wheel adapters available for these machines? Mine has 4x150 hubs I think , and I was thinking about fitting a set of rubicon wheels or even can am wheels as they are easy to find for a good deal, also I might have a line on buying a couple parts bikes.

[350for350]

A quick search didn't turn up anything for me. It may be better to buy some different hubs. Possibly some for a 200X might work. I'm not sure about the spline size/number.

[ps2fixer]

For 200e you should be able to find a sports quad rear hubs that will fit. Biggest thing is spline shaft size, and spline count. Another factor is width of the hub that rides on the splines. For the most part, a lot of Honda hubs interchange. I've put ATC90 hubs on a 200ES before. Assuming you want to go to the 4/110 bolt pattern something like a 350x, 250r, 200x rear hub should work. I wish there was better documenting on hubs for machines, but sadly that seems to be somewhat rare to find "real" details on. Defo search around more on hub interchanges to make sure x machine's hub will work on yours, but that's probably the easiest way to convert a bolt pattern.

Another option is to use a wheel spacer style adapter, but I'm not sure how common they are for atv's, I know they exist in the car/truck world. It requires a bit of a wheel spacer to clear the rim from the hub studs, so probably around 1.5in per side.

From what I've seen, hub swaps are viewed as a better solution than wheel spacers for getting the axle width you want, so it's probably best to go the hub route if possible. Of course best axle width solution is to get an axle that's the right width, but that's not always an option.