Gas in transmission in 250R ATC

[rmcollector]

Hi all, been awhile since I been on, hope all is well.

I picked up a 86 250R ATC and gave it a fresh bore .030 with a new piston due to cylinder scoring. Rings are in spec, newer carb is cleaned and float height is correct. New reeds. Compression is tight. The bike keeps flooding the crankcase with gas and now when I drained the oil in the transmission case, it is full of gas. I thought possibly the carb, and switched it out with another carb...and same thing. It will start after some time, but it's extremely hard to get it started and running pretty rich from the load of gas in it.

Any ideas on this issue? Any help would be appreciated!

[Tri-Z 250]

When you say compression is tight...by kick or leak down test? I believe it’s a new top on a motor that may have sat or the seals on the crank have met the end of their life cycle. Your pushing gas into the trans, other than inner case crack my $ is on the seals.

[shortline10]

Very simple , your carburetor float valve isn’t working properly on either carburetor and if your getting fuel in the tranny cavity then your crank seals or your center crank case gasket has failed .
Time for a rebuild !

[rmcollector]

When you say compression is tight...by kick or leak down test? I believe it’s a new top on a motor that may have sat or the seals on the crank have met the end of their life cycle. Your pushing gas into the trans, other than inner case crack my $ is on the seals.

Yes, right now it's at 167 psi. Wouldn't compression be low with a bad crank seal?

[rmcollector]

Very simple , your carburetor float valve isn’t working properly on either carburetor and if your getting fuel in the tranny cavity then your crank seals or your center crank case gasket has failed .
Time for a rebuild !

Ok, I know the crank seals were replaced about 2 months ago. Seems strange the float on both carbs would be messed up, but anythings possible I guess.

[El Camexican]

It needs to be disabled and put back together properly. A pressure test before will till you what went wrong and another after the rebuild will ensure it won’t happen again.

[yaegerb]

Yes, right now it's at 167 psi. Wouldn't compression be low with a bad crank seal?

167 is low for a brand new rebuild unless the rings haven’t seated yet. You should be running 180+. A compression test isn’t going to tell you if your crank seals are bad. A crank case pressure test will. I second all comments so far. It’s time to break the motor down and do new seals/gaskets and while you are in there I would do bearings and check your crank for wear.

[ps2fixer]

I'm not sure if the OP knows what a leak down test is, but you pressurize the cylinder and leave it and check for a leak over time. It's very critical to not have any air leaks with a 2 stroke else it could run too lean and melt the piston. Anything from the crank case compartment getting into the transmission says there's a bad gasket somewhere, either the gasket failed, or it didn't get installed correctly like the gasket folded over on you etc. Could be the crank seals too. I'm not sure how the transmission breather tube is setup on the 250r, but generally it ultimately ends up at the carb one way or another, could be possible fuel get in the transmission through that hose too if the layout/design makes sense for that to be even possible.

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/car-maintenance/car-maintenance-archive/how-to-do-a-leakdown-test

With a chain saw normally there's block off plates put on the intake and exhaust to test crank seals and crank case gaskets, cylinder base gasket, etc.

I would post up a screen shot from the service manual for the compression specs, but sadly there isn't any for any year of atc250r. I checked the TRX250R manual too, and I don't see a spec there either.

[rmcollector]

167 is low for a brand new rebuild unless the rings haven’t seated yet. You should be running 180+. A compression test isn’t going to tell you if your crank seals are bad. A crank case pressure test will. I second all comments so far. It’s time to break the motor down and do new seals/gaskets and while you are in there I would do bearings and check your crank for wear.

Rebuild only has about 15-20 min of run time, I would think psi would go up slightly after rings seat. That was going to be my next step was to do a pressure test. I would think the only way gas getting into the transmission would be a bad crank seal? Not sure how else it would enter. Do you know off hand the size I need for the expansion plug? Going to go to the hardware store and put something together so I can test the engine.

[ps2fixer]

Here's a quick edited image I did to show where the center crank case seal could leak between crank to transmission.

https://i.gyazo.com/cde83ed1fabdecce7f0152a2ddcb0575.png


Have you had any problems with tuning? Another sign of a leak is the engine tends to run lean.

[rmcollector]

Here's a quick edited image I did to show where the center crank case seal could leak between crank to transmission.

https://i.gyazo.com/cde83ed1fabdecce7f0152a2ddcb0575.png


Have you had any problems with tuning? Another sign of a leak is the engine tends to run lean.

Ok thanks for that. As far as tuning, when I am able to get it started it runs pretty rich, which makes sense with all the fuel build up. It wants to start, but then dies after a few seconds. If crank is cleared of buildup with a fresh plug it will fire up and run, but won't idle. Ive done this several times.

[ps2fixer]

Might sound odd, but pretty sure when a 2 stroke loads up, it's the oil in the crank case that causes the problems. Just guessing, but if there's gas getting into the transmission, then oil from the transmission is probably getting into the crank case. That oil will still burn and probably make a fair bit of carbon to make the appearance of a rich condition. Further support of this idea is the fact you swapped out carbs, so it's not like it's the carb is just dumping fuel because of a bad needle & seat. The amount of oil mixed in the fuel could be a factor too, but my experience mainly revolves around chain saws.

From my understanding for oil mixing, if you ride light, or ride average (short bursts of WOT), then you want less oil in your fuel mix and tune the carb for the new fuel ratio (less oil in the fuel = more fuel so either need to lean the carb or add more air). Same goes for the opposite, if you're drag racing where all you do is WOT, then you want very heavy mix of oil, and the engine probably won't run great unless it's floored. Also the oils have advanced a lot since these machines were made. I can't really suggest a good ratio for a given application, but this is just a rule of thumb.

I'm real interested in what you find to be the cause of the running issues. Sometimes the weirdest problems are the ones we can learn the most from.

[ironchop]

https://i.gyazo.com/cde83ed1fabdecce7f0152a2ddcb0575.png


See that red spot?

If the rod had ever let go in those cases and it banged into that wall there in the pic, that might be your issue.... I've seen holes broke thru in that area or even cracks. That lets the piston draw oil from the trans thru that hole/crack or gas leak into the trans as well. It might smoke and seem rich because your actually burning some trans fluid too

Or as mentioned above, your float stuck and the cases filled up with fuel and then leaked into the trans side of the cases thru a broken or cracked area

I'm just throwing out another possibility to look for





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[rmcollector]

That's interesting, I hope it isn't cracked or has a hole in it. I will find out more when I run the leak test, going to get the stuff today.

I took the stator cover off last night and tried to take the flywheel off with a flywheel remover tool, well, I didn't get anywhere because the damn threading inside on the flywheel is striped and it will not hold to where it will pop off. Does anyone know how to take it off without the tool and not cause any damage?

[rmcollector]

Ok, so the leak down test was done several times @ 8 psi for 10-15 minutes and it hasn't leaked even a tiny bit.

I noticed air coming out of the nipple on the case underneath the boot and reed while I was trying to pump up pressure, so this was plugged up temporarily with a hose, this may sound pretty silly...but what is this used for, and does it need to be sealed off?

[ps2fixer]

Can you post a photo of it? I don't see anything in the part diagrams, but maybe someone with more experience with that model will recognize it.

[ironchop]

Ok, so the leak down test was done several times @ 8 psi for 10-15 minutes and it hasn't leaked even a tiny bit.

I noticed air coming out of the nipple on the case underneath the boot and reed while I was trying to pump up pressure, so this was plugged up temporarily with a hose, this may sound pretty silly...but what is this used for, and does it need to be sealed off?Pretty sure that's the gearcase vent

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[ironchop]

This is the gearcase vent.... If there is air coming out when you pump it up and it's not plugged, then you do have an air leak and it's leaking into the gearcase. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200203/fe730602db7de1fab2e75a34737ccd49.jpg

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[rmcollector]

This is the gearcase vent.... If there is air coming out when you pump it up and it's not plugged, then you do have an air leak and it's leaking into the gearcase. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200203/fe730602db7de1fab2e75a34737ccd49.jpg

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Yes that is the nipple I am talking about, so where is your hose going to from that nipple? Does this mean my seals are leaking, or?

[ironchop]

Yes that is the nipple I am talking about, so where is your hose going to from that nipple? Does this mean my seals are leaking, or?

That hose goes out behind the motor and it's open to the ground. Normally it would have a T in it from the factory and one end goes up by the airbox and the other end is aimed toward the ground. That way it has two exits to vent the gear case in case one end becomes plugged up

Could be seals, that crack or hole I was talking about or the case half gasket is leaking

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[RoscoW]

I had that same gasket slip out of place on a rebuild once and it showed up on the leak down test. it does need to be unplugged for a proper test and if you loose pressure, spray soapy water on the suspected spots. Bubbles means an air leak. I suspect the gasket has slipped, they are very narrow in that area. Pull it apart, buy a new OEM centre gasket and lightly lap the case halves to get a flat mating surface......should be good to go.

Ross...

[rmcollector]

I had that same gasket slip out of place on a rebuild once and it showed up on the leak down test. it does need to be unplugged for a proper test and if you loose pressure, spray soapy water on the suspected spots. Bubbles means an air leak. I suspect the gasket has slipped, they are very narrow in that area. Pull it apart, buy a new OEM centre gasket and lightly lap the case halves to get a flat mating surface......should be good to go.

Ross...

Wouldn't the center case be bubbling when sprayed during the test if the gasket failed?

[ironchop]

Wouldn't the center case be bubbling when sprayed during the test if the gasket failed?Not if the leak is in that red circled area in the diagram pic above. That part is inside the case where you can't see it

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[ironchop]

Here is where we think the leak is...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200203/2bcc0efb0656be9efefbfe3aed34963c.jpg

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[ironchop]

That gasket, the open area to the left is the crank case. The open area to the right is the gear case and that little sliver of gasket is all that keeps one sealed from the other

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[ps2fixer]

ironchop has all the images on this topic =).

I agree, looks like a crankcase vent (well transmission vent in this case since 2 stroke). As stated, there must be a gasket leak in the area I circled in read. Could be as simple as a deep scratch on the center crankcase sealing surface, or maybe a bit of old gasket material left over.

If you could remove the transmission section of the engine to get to the gasket surface, it would bubble where the leak is, but it's internal inside the engine. The fact it leaks out the transmission vent means it's getting into the transmission when it shouldn't be.

[Red Rider]

It could also be leaking forward of the crankcase into the counter-balancer cavity via the centercase gasket.


I had that same gasket slip out of place on a rebuild once and it showed up on the leak down test. it does need to be unplugged for a proper test and if you loose pressure, spray soapy water on the suspected spots. Bubbles means an air leak. I suspect the gasket has slipped, they are very narrow in that area. Pull it apart, buy a new OEM centre gasket and lightly lap the case halves to get a flat mating surface......should be good to go.

Ross...I had the same issue after replacing my crankshaft a few years ago.

[rmcollector]

That gasket, the open area to the left is the crank case. The open area to the right is the gear case and that little sliver of gasket is all that keeps one sealed from the other

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Makes sense, thanks for showing me that. Ive done a few before, but was just trying to avoid splitting the cases. Would the crank seals cause this air to flow out of the nipple, or should my focus be on this gasket? When this nipple is plugged up, I get no drop in psi on the leak test, and of course, when the nipple is not sealed off I can't even get up to 5-10 psi because air is coming out of it too fast.

[ironchop]

It could also be leaking forward of the crankcase into the counter-balancer cavity via the centercase gasket.

I had the same issue after replacing my crankshaft a few years ago.I never thought of that until you mentioned it. Thanks for pointing that out!

Yeah, RM Collector.. what he said^^^

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[ironchop]

Makes sense, thanks for showing me that. Ive done a few before, but was just trying to avoid splitting the cases. Would the crank seals cause this air to flow out of the nipple, or should my focus be on this gasket? When this nipple is plugged up, I get no drop in psi on the leak test, and of course, when the nipple is not sealed off I can't even get up to 5-10 psi because air is coming out of it too fast.

Yeah it can leak thru the right seal and get in the gearcase via the clutch area or from the left seal into the counterbalancer and then into the clutch area and into the gearcase

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[ironchop]

I would spray the seals with soapy water and check them first so I didn't split the cases for nothing.



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[rmcollector]

It could also be leaking forward of the crankcase into the counter-balancer cavity via the centercase gasket.

I had the same issue after replacing my crankshaft a few years ago.

Yes Im looking at a picture of the center gasket now, that can also be a possibility! Thanks for pointing that out, I actually forgot about that area for the counter balancer.

[rmcollector]

I would spray the seals with soapy water and check them first so I didn't split the cases for nothing.



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The flywheel threading is striped to where I can't the flywheel remover tool to grab and pop it off, any ideas to get the flywheel off without doing any damage?

[ironchop]

The flywheel threading is striped to where I can't the flywheel remover tool to grab and pop it off, any ideas to get the flywheel off without doing any damage?I wouldn't know. I haven't run into that issue yet and I'd be afraid to suggest the wrong thing and it get damaged more.

Hopeful someone else with that same experience can chime in



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[ps2fixer]

Most proper thing I can think of is if you can get a puller in there like a 3 jaw puller.

With the old brigs engines, you'd just hit the flywheel with a hammer to shock it and it would let go. not exactly a good idea for a high performance engines though. Maybe heating up the fly wheel with a torch would work? Can't get it too hot though (stator, wiring, crank seal etc don't want to be too hot).

If you buy a replacement flywheel, weld something to the flywheel and use a puller that can hook onto what you welded onto it. Just careful of heat once again.

Remember to always lube the puller threads, and when possible don't use the flywheel threads to do the actual pulling if there's a second set of threads in the puller (a center bolt).

Just what I could come up with off the top of my head.

[yaegerb]

The flywheel threading is striped to where I can't the flywheel remover tool to grab and pop it off, any ideas to get the flywheel off without doing any damage?

How stripped? Got a pic? You’re gonna ruin the flywheel with a jaw puller

[rmcollector]

How stripped? Got a pic? You’re gonna ruin the flywheel with a jaw puller

261461261462

It is stripped really bad, the flywheel puller will not screw in any. I cleaned it out but that didn't help. I am hesitant to use a 3 jaw. Not sure what to do next, I don't want to damage anything.

[yaegerb]

261461261462

It is stripped really bad, the flywheel puller will not screw in any. I cleaned it out but that didn't help. I am hesitant to use a 3 jaw. Not sure what to do next, I don't want to damage anything.

Do you have a wire or stick welder?

[Red Rider]

261461261462

It is stripped really bad, the flywheel puller will not screw in any. I cleaned it out but that didn't help. I am hesitant to use a 3 jaw. Not sure what to do next, I don't want to damage anything.I would drill 2 holes into the face plate (where the big rivets are), in a perfectly straight line across the crankshaft, with the crankshaft centered in between the holes, tap the holes, and then use a steering wheel puller to remove the flywheel. Once removed, toss that flywheel in the scrap bin & get a new one.

Here's a Harbor Freight version that will work just fine. https://www.harborfreight.com/bolt-type-wheel-puller-set-62620.html?cid=paid_google|||62620&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&mkwid=s|pcrid|385364674719|pkw||pmt||pdv|c|slid||p roduct|62620|&pgrid=79002131432&ptaid=pla-834243824585&pcid=6549872779&intent=&gclid=CjwKCAiAyeTxBRBvEiwAuM8dnSuMzLzAnc6czj51o2FV yIjb-gTC7cF9XMcasT0VLTnBk2dCk9DnnxoC990QAvD_BwE

[ps2fixer]

Don't forget about the stator under the flywheel, don't want to drill into a coil.

[Red Rider]

Don't forget about the stator under the flywheel, don't want to drill into a coil.Good point. Don't drill too deep, and hit the coil. And make sure the bike isn't running, just in case you do drill too deep. That way you wont get shocked. ;)

[atc300r]

I have used a couple pry bars and a hammer before.Take the nut off remove washer.thread nut on flush.Put a pry bar in enough to get a bite on the inside edge of flywheel put some pressure on the pry bars hit the end of the crank good and square. Brass hammer is best.Not ideal way but worked for me.

[rmcollector]

Ended up finally getting her off, I used a crankcase splitter tool I forgot I had. I grinded two bolt heads half way off and them tapped them into the two flywheel holes and then tightened the tool on the end crank and it popped off. Now back to pressure testing and seeing where my problem is :)

[rmcollector]

Did the pressure test and found the left crank seal is leaking, it holds pressure for some time, but drops after awhile. Also, I took the right case off and pumped some air into the boot to find that the right side has bubbles coming out of the bottom of the collar, when I put the collar in the other way...it doesn't leak at all. The collar is smooth on the inside. Crankshaft splines are in nice shape.261498261499 Any thoughts on this?

[ironchop]

That collar will leak air between the right end of the crank shaft and the collar ID if the clutch basket isn't on the crank and tightened down properly

I'm not sure why it doesn't leak when it's on the other way.
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[rmcollector]

Ok, wasn't aware of this. Im thinking the only other way for gas to get into the transmission would be from a failed center gasket?

[ps2fixer]

I'm sure sure what the part looks like, but it's possible it could have a groove worn in the metal for the bearing seal. I'd think it would have to be pretty bad to have it leak though. Based on what ironchop said, it might just be normal unless assembled.

[yaegerb]

Any thoughts on this?

Yeah.....all new bearings and seals. It’s leaking behind the collar because your o ring is worn out. It Hides right behind the collar. Putting it in backwards is not necessary and don’t even know why you are doing that. Also, Check your crankshaft runout and make sure there’s no up/down play in your big end bearing.

[bkm]

Did the pressure test and found the left crank seal is leaking, it holds pressure for some time, but drops after awhile. Also, I took the right case off and pumped some air into the boot to find that the right side has bubbles coming out of the bottom of the collar, when I put the collar in the other way...it doesn't leak at all. The collar is smooth on the inside. Crankshaft splines are in nice shape.261498261499 Any thoughts on this?

Were you testing the right side (water pump side) seal with the crank gear torqued down? That side has to be pressure tested with the crank gear torqued down. There is no o-ring behind that collar and is held tight to the end of the crank by the gear to form an air tight seal. When the transmission is full of oil, the viscosity of the oil in the splines and under the collar prevents air leaks. The older air cooled bikes used an o-ring there, but not the liquid cooled bikes. It looks like the face of that collar has been very hot in the past indicating it was stationary while the crank was spinning at some point in its life. If that's the case, the surface that goes against the crank may have high or low spots causing the leak. I still think you have a center gasket issue though. I'd lap both side of that collar to make sure its perfectly flat.

[rmcollector]

Yeah.....all new bearings and seals. It’s leaking behind the collar because your o ring is worn out. It Hides right behind the collar. Putting it in backwards is not necessary and don’t even know why you are doing that. Also, Check your crankshaft runout and make sure there’s no up/down play in your big end bearing.

What part # is the o ring? I am not seeing it on the list. bkm, you say there is no o ring behind the collar? Im not seeing one.

[bkm]

What part # is the o ring? I am not seeing it on the list. bkm, you say there is no o ring behind the collar? Im not seeing one.No, not that I've ever seen and the parts fiche does list one either. The seal is formed by the collar against the crankshaft.

[bkm]

Here's my unscientific take on the whole collar o-ring deal. Guys rebuild these engines and pressure test them. They leak there because they are not checking with the crank gear installed or if it is, everything is new and super clean and dry, unlike in a full lubed running condition. But what is not being done is a leak test after it is full of transmission fluid and all buttoned up, plus, no one can prove this collar leaks when the engine is running. My opinion is the o-ring trick is used to mask a condition that doesn't exist in a engine while in its running state. But, a pitted or worn out crank/collar will cause a leak. How bad???? I seriously doubt enough to make a real difference in jetting or sucking gas through it.

[rmcollector]

Were you testing the right side (water pump side) seal with the crank gear torqued down? That side has to be pressure tested with the crank gear torqued down. There is no o-ring behind that collar and is held tight to the end of the crank by the gear to form an air tight seal. When the transmission is full of oil, the viscosity of the oil in the splines and under the collar prevents air leaks. The older air cooled bikes used an o-ring there, but not the liquid cooled bikes. It looks like the face of that collar has been very hot in the past indicating it was stationary while the crank was spinning at some point in its life. If that's the case, the surface that goes against the crank may have high or low spots causing the leak. I still think you have a center gasket issue though. I'd lap both side of that collar to make sure its perfectly flat.

Yes, I have the crank gear torqued down when trying to perform pressure test, problem is, I can't get any air to hold because all the air is coming out of the rear transmission bearing. Air shouldn't be coming out of the transmission area, being it is sealed off with the center gasket, correct? Either way, I am splitting the cases, just want to have a good understanding of the engine. 261566

[bkm]

Yes, I have the crank gear torqued down when trying to perform pressure test, problem is, I can't get any air to hold because all the air is coming out of the rear transmission bearing. Air shouldn't be coming out of the transmission area, being it is sealed off with the center gasket, correct? Either way, I am splitting the cases, just want to have a good understanding of the engine. 261566Yes, you're pissing in the wind until you fix the big leak.

[yaegerb]

What part # is the o ring? I am not seeing it on the list. bkm, you say there is no o ring behind the collar? Im not seeing one.

Honda Part Number: 91301-250-000

Its on all 81-84 of the ATC 250R partzilla microfiche in the piston/crank section. No idea why 85-86 doesn't have this part called out as the collars' machined lip remained unchanged for the 85-86. The other interesting tidbit I will add is the aftermarket gasket kits (when you order the full kit) comes with the 21.5MM o-ring made for this application. I use it on 250R motors I rebuild and have removed it from other motors I have rebuilt.

Do what feels right.

[rmcollector]

Honda Part Number: 91301-250-000

Its on all 81-84 of the ATC 250R partzilla microfiche in the piston/crank section. No idea why 85-86 doesn't have this part called out as the collars' machined lip remained unchanged for the 85-86. The other interesting tidbit I will add is the aftermarket gasket kits (when you order the full kit) comes with the 21.5MM o-ring made for this application. I use it on 250R motors I rebuild and have removed it from other motors I have rebuilt.

Do what feels right.

Good info. I split the cases today and found the gasket has a pinch/tear in it where it keeps the crank/transmission separated. Almost looks like it happened possibly when put back together and maybe the transmission gear may have caught it. Not sure, but definitely needs replaced along with seals and possibly bearings.

When you put the center gasket in and seal it up, do any of you use any sealant or just the gasket alone? Im sure everyone has a different opinion on this, but curious.

What gasket sealant are you using on your rebuilds? I found Hondabond to do pretty good, but never used on a center case. Hi-temp sealant for the center case?

[yaegerb]

Good info. I split the cases today and found the gasket has a pinch/tear in it where it keeps the crank/transmission separated. Almost looks like it happened possibly when put back together and maybe the transmission gear may have caught it. Not sure, but definitely needs replaced along with seals and possibly bearings.

When you put the center gasket in and seal it up, do any of you use any sealant or just the gasket alone? Im sure everyone has a different opinion on this, but curious.

What gasket sealant are you using on your rebuilds? I found Hondabond to do pretty good, but never used on a center case. Hi-temp sealant for the center case?

Hondabond/Yamabond both work well. I use 1211 3 bond. No gasket sealer is needed if you can confirm the cases are completely flat or if you lap them. If you are unsure or don’t want to spend the time to true the cases use a sealant.

[ps2fixer]

I've heard of people using red rtv as a gasket sealer but it needs to be applied thin. Too much and the excess can come off and block oil passages. I suspect there are other similar products too that isn't that ugly red that most people hate to see lol. I think the product line for that kind of application is called gasket dressing.

[bkm]

Here's an old thread regarding the O-Ring on a liquid cooled 250r.

Dont use red rtv or rtv of any kind on cases. It gets into bolt holes and blows out the threads and really causes issues. If you're going to use sealer, take yeagerb's advise.

Skip past the idiot Barnett talking stupid. You'll thank me later.


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[atc300r]

I use this copper spray on all my gaskets now. 261570

[ps2fixer]

I use this copper spray on all my gaskets now. 261570

I saw a video of a bunch of kids trying to build a 10 second Honda car, they were trying to do it on the cheap, so used motor oil and that copper spray + stock reused headgasket, no head studs, just reused the head bolts. Basically they did everything wrong and it actually held up fairly ok.

EDIT: Found the video of the car, not sure where the copper spray clip is at though, might be the 2nd engine they swapped in.


https://youtu.be/p-wVasjm-aY?t=680

[rmcollector]

I use this copper spray on all my gaskets now. 261570

Yea I have found that one to be really good on head gasket sealing. You using it on other gaskets, besides head gaskets?

[atc300r]

I use it on all my gaskets.