Hunting dispute

[cliff2302]

Have you guys heard about this yet? This is really messed up. Apparently, one hunter killed five hunters when they asked him to get off their land in Wisconsin. Here's the link for the full story

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6551094/

[almac16]

Holy Cr*p!

That's just plain crazy.

I will think twice before kicking someone out of my treestand nexttime (my brother in law had to do it last weekend)

Those SKS's are crazy guns.... we had one for a while but sold it as they are illegal here in Canada.

[84250r]

That is terrible. My heart goes out to there families.

[trikerider2oo7]

people are stupid. what kind of idiot shoots someone for them asking them to get off their land? that guy should be shot back as punishment

[OldSchoolin86]

I'm sure that SKS got them all too quick but I would have shot him without thinking twice if I saw my buddies getting it(if I wasn't dead).

[Yamahauler]

thats sick. i dont how he could ever sleep at night

[OldSchoolin86]

It's six dead now. My heart goes out to the families.

[84honda 200X]

Its all over the school and town up here in northern minnesota. If it were me i would have blown him right out of the stand when the shooting starts. All so the SKS is a legal hunting rifle in Minnesota and Wisconsin. We got 2 of them and i used one one year. I hope they give him the death penalty or somethin bad. He had no right to do that to those people.

[Jeb]

How about the woman in Plano, TX who cut the arms off her 11 month old daughter and killed her yesterday??? She makes that guy look like a boy scout.

Made me physically sick. Since this is a local story the media is all talking about postpartum depression. I have absolutely no sympathy for the mother, if you can still call her that. I can't even imagine.

Both terrible tragedies.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139326,00.html

[Maine_Triker]

How can someone do that? that is so terrible.

[TrikerR]

ohh thats terrible...how she just calmly told 911 that she had done it. that is just terriable.

[83200e]

In the end the gun will be blamed ,and we'll probably see another gun ban.

[Billy Golightly]

Jim (Firecat) from chat knew these people that were killed. What a sad state of affairs. The article on msnbc.com says that the shooter was apprehended once in the past for domestic disturbances in 2001. If the system had worked then, none of this would have happened now. What a crock of trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro. I feel so bad for the victims' families.

[Wickedfinger]

... that "murderer" - is now saying he was fired upon first by the hunters. I'm 99% sure they don't allow auto rifle deer hunting up there - but in any case I'm 100% sure they would only allow a 3 round mag load if they did - thats six dead now - do the math.

[Wickedfinger]

Great, now theres an ATV involved too - read this article ...........

Suspect Says Hunters Shot at Him First

15 minutes ago

By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer

HAYWARD, Wis. - A Hmong immigrant suspected of killing six fellow deer hunters in the Wisconsin woods told investigators that he opened fire after they took a shot at him first and hurled racial slurs at him, according to court papers filed Tuesday.

A judge set bail at $2.5 million for Chai Vang, 36, of St. Paul, Minn., who was jailed on suspicion of murder and attempted murder.

The shootings occurred Sunday after Vang climbed into a tree stand on private property and got into a confrontation with the landowner and members of his hunting party.

On Monday, authorities gave an account in which they made no mention of any of the victims taking the first shot. Instead, they said that after the other hunters told the trespasser to get out of the tree, Vang walked off, then wheeled and opened fire.

Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager, who is prosecuting the case, did not immediately return a call for comment.

Vang, an immigrant from Laos, was arrested about four hours after the shootings as he emerged from the woods with his empty semiautomatic rifle. Five people died in the woods; a sixth died Monday in a hospital. Two others were wounded.

Vang's account was included in court documents that were used to persuade a judge that there was probable cause to hold him on suspicion of murder.

According to Vang's story, he got lost while hunting on public land and ended up in the vacant tree stand _ a raised platform used by hunters to see deer and shoot down at them. Vang told investigators he did not realize he was on private property.

Landowner Terry Willers approached, asking why Vang was there and pointed out he was on private property. Vang said he told Willers he had not seen any "no trespassing" signs, climbed down from the stand and started to walk away.

Vang said he heard Willers call on a walkie-talkie, and five or six men on all-terrain vehicles approached a few moments later. Vang said the group surrounded him, and some used racial slurs.

He said that he was told to get off the property, and as he started walking away, he turned back and saw Willers point a gun at him from about 100 feet away. He told investigators he immediately dropped to a crouch, and Willers shot at him, the bullet hitting the ground 30 to 40 feet behind Vang.

Vang said he removed the scope from his rifle and began firing, continuing to shoot as the group scattered. He said one of the victims, Joey Crotteau, tried to run away, but Vang chased him, got within 20 feet and shot him in the back. Crotteau, 20, was killed. Willers was wounded and was listed in fair condition Tuesday.

Vang said as he began to run, an ATV with two people drove past and he fired three or four times, causing both people to fall off the machine. He said that he looked up the trail, saw that one of the men was standing, yelled, "You're not dead yet?" and fired one more shot in the man's direction. He said he did not know if he hit the man or not.

Vang said he then ran away.

Authorities have said there was only one gun among the eight hunters.

There have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region. Locals in the Birchwood area, about 120 miles northeast of the Twin Cities, have complained the Hmong do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they want.

About 24,000 Hmong live in St. Paul, the highest concentration of any U.S. city. Vang's arrest made some Hmong citizens in his hometown fearful of a backlash. Hmong leaders condemned the shootings and offered condolences to victims' families.

"What happened in Wisconsin is in no way representative of the Hmong people and what they stand for," said Cha Vang, no relation to the suspect.

Sang Vang said his brother has lived in the United States for more than 20 years and is a U.S. Army veteran.

Chai Vang has no criminal record with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. Police in St. Paul said there had been two domestic violence calls to his home in the past year, but both were resolved without incident.

___

[Wickedfinger]

Murderer - The guy admitted to demounting his scope in favor of his iron sights - that right there proves he was setting out to murder a group of people, fast - its alot easier to aquire multiple targets at close range with open sights. This should be a cut and dry case ......... well, should be. And another thing, what kind of nut would try and hunt white tail with a medium power, military FMJ. (yes, 7.62x39 hollow points are available, but they are jacketed too) let alone with an SKS or Type 56. You know, in a way, I'm glad for his gun stupidity - if he had a full power ought 6, .308 or 30/30, he might have killed 8 people instead of 6.

[Pistonhead]

If I'm not mistaken, SKS's are only semi-auto unless modified (by removing some springs etc.) I know that the chinese sks's have a faulty piece in the firing mechanism that sometimes causes them to go off in full auto bursts if the gun is severly dropped or shaken. Anyway, where I come from you can hunt with an sks as long as you use a magazine that can only hold 5 rounds. Either way, the murderer is still a truly un-human being who doesn't deserve the gift of life. What a terrible tradgedy. I hope the murderer is given the death penalty.

[atczack]

They should shove a machine gun up his rear and blast away. An eye for an eye is what I say!

[Wickedfinger]

I have a Type 56 Chinese (SKS) - it is widely known fact that you can file down the stopper on the sear in the trigger group and make the rifle (fully) auto (although I've never heard of the "drop" thing). Unlike the AK-47, however, it was never intended to be a fully auto weapon, therefore it was never designed with an full auto trigger group or bolt assembly. Modifying an SKS to full auto is HIGHLY against the law, and only a fool would do such a stupid thing. To get caught with such a modification would mean many months in a Federal prison and the stripping of your gun rights forever.

[honda200boyatc]

i read both articals in the duluth MN paper and it says that he was asked nicely to get down so he did and when walkin away he turned and started shootin at the hunting group. then one of the guys radioed for help so he a kid and his mom came out to help.
when he saw them coming he shot at both of them and hit both of them so then when he saw some more hunters so he shot at them. Then when he was out of bullets he started running throw the wood. he came across two more hunter that help him to the closest road. one of the people that he shoot at got the number off the bcak of his jacket and called it in. a DNR was driving down the road and saw his and picked him up and hand cuffed him. now his family is saying that he didn't do it it was some chinese **edited** out there shootin wildly i hope him nd his family are sent back to were ever there from and the UN talks it from there.

**please dont type aorund the word filters**

[honda200boyatc]

HAYWARD, United States (AFP) - The Laotian-born truck driver accused of massacring six members of a deer hunting party in a remote wooded part of Wisconsin, claims he was fired on first, according to court papers released.


AFP/HO/Getty Images Photo



Chai Vang told investigators that a member of the party opened fire on him as he was walking away after they had ordered him off a private estate in Sawyer County, northwest Wisconsin.


Vang said he turned in time to see the man shoot, and crouched down as the bullet whipped past, landing 30 to 40 feet behind him.


The 36-year-old said he then fired two shots, felling the man, according to papers filed Tuesday as part of a probable cause hearing.


The Hmong immigrant, who was in Wisconsin for the first weekend of the deer hunting season, also claimed that members of the party verbally abused him, calling him "chook," and "gook."


But while his account of how Sunday's deadly shooting spree started differs from that of the survivors, his version of how a random encounter between deer hunters escalated into an all-out massacre tallied closely with their version of events.


According to investigators, Vang described the rampage in chilling detail, going on to recount how he sprayed the other members of the hunting party, many of whom were unarmed, with gunfire.


Two or three of the group, Wisconsin natives from a nearby town who had gathered together for their annual hunting expedition, immediately fell to the ground.


Vang then pursued one of the group, Joey Crotteau, 20, shooting him several times in the back, once at close range, as the young man ran for his life, screaming "Help me. Help me."


Seeing other members of the party arrive on the bloody scene, Vang said he turned the camoflauge side of his coat outwards, and reloaded his semi-automatic, SKS assault rifle with five or six more rounds.


He said he didn't fire on this group, because they were armed, but he did shoot and fell Allan Laski, 43, and Jessica Willers, 27, who showed up on an ATV.


Vang said Laski was preparing to shoot. Authorities said the pair were unarmed. Both were later listed among the dead.


Heading back towards the scene of the first shooting, he saw one of the wounded men from earlier, and shouting:"You're not dead, yet?" he fired off another round in his direction.


Vang disappeared into the woods as eight hunters lay bleeding and another half-dozen or so in their hunting party cared for the wounded.


Bodies were scattered over a 100-square-yard area, according to officials from the Sawyer County sheriff's department.


One of the hunting party had been able to alert authorities, and the police mounted a massive manhunt, which ended peacefully when Vang was arrested without incident on the edge of the woods five hours later.


At Tuesday's hearing, circuit court judge Norman Yackel ruled that there was probable cause to hold Vang and set his bail at 2.5 million dollars, Yackel also scheduled a court hearing for December 20.





On Tuesday, Vang's brother expressed shock and disbelief at what had happened.

Chai Soua Vang, 36, a St. Paul, Minn., resident and former soldier who is married with six children, was arrested five hours after the shooting Sunday.

[MTS]

well it will be pretty easy for cops to see if the killer was fired on first via balistics...i think th eguy is full of bull ****, if i was one of the hunters famliy members i have an SKS so far up his *** so quick he would be beggin for the bullet, i was give him death by an eletric chair and make him suffer as much as possibl, the guy is a compleat and utter **** head, this piss's me off sooo much, i cant write it all

[honda200boyatc]

the only thing about death pentalty is its not in WI and that were it happened so u WI people will have to pay for his room and board with buba in the prison

[MTS]

the only thing about death pentalty is its not in WI and that were it happened so u WI people will have to pay for his room and board with buba in the prison
yes well maby we will be lucky and he will be brutally beaten in jail

[OldSchoolin86]

yes well maby we will be lucky and he will be brutally beaten in jail

This is the state that dalmer was killed in. Hopefully the prison population takes care of this jerk too.

[Billy Golightly]

I dont care if he was shot at first or not. There was another half a dozen people that were COMPLETELY UNARMED and he unloaded on them. Fricken nutjob.

[Pistonhead]

I hope he gets some sodimized in prison, maybe when he's bleeding from the asshole he'll realize how stupid and careless his actions were.

[Dan Tenn]

... that "murderer" - is now saying he was fired upon first by the hunters. I'm 99% sure they don't allow auto rifle deer hunting up there - but in any case I'm 100% sure they would only allow a 3 round mag load if they did - thats six dead now - do the math.

Just want to get the facts straight here. It is semi-auto, not full auto. In MN, it is legal to carry a 10-round magazine (I use an AR-10). I checked the WI regulations, and could not find any info on clip size. I assume it is the same as MN.

[TimSr]

Just want to get the facts straight here. It is semi-auto, not full auto. In MN, it is legal to carry a 10-round magazine (I use an AR-10). I checked the WI regulations, and could not find any info on clip size. I assume it is the same as MN.

I cant speak for what WI hunting regulations allow, but heres a few more facts about the gun. The SKS has a ten round FIXED magizine. (not a detachable magazine." You have to pull back the bolt, and reload one round at a time through the top of the gun. A full auto or select fire version of the SKS was never made. It is not, nor has it ever met anybodys legal or academic definiition of an "assault rifle."
I dont think either account of what happened is accurate and that the truth lies somewhere in beween. Sounds like the people in that area are fed up with trespassers and that certain ethnic groups have a reputation for not respecting that. I have my doubts that they "kindly asked him to leave." They were probably understandably quite nasty and unfriendly about it. I do NOT believe they fired on him first. I think they guy was a fruitcake nutjob and he snapped.
Everybody likes to talk about "what they would have done", and its easy to talk tough when youre not being shot at. These people were basically unarmed. They obviously weren't expecting to shoot at anybody or be shot at.
Im sure all the facts will come out in the trial along with scientific evidence to prove and disprove theories and claims. Ill wait until then to form a full opinion as to what happned and what punishment is most appropriate.
Im all for the death penalty but for some people, a liftetime of imprisonment can inflict more suffering on them than a quick death. Im for whatever inflicts the most suffering upon a murderer, and that would depend upon the individual.
Aside from the useless deaths of a group of friends and family, and what the shooter has done that will utlimately destroy his own family, this tragedy will be used by those who wish to exploit a political agenda that has nothing to do with this tragedy. Chuck the Shmuck Shumer will be out there tomorrow saying that had we banned this type rifle and the killer used another type rifle, more of them would have survived, and the PETA people will be telling us that hunting turns good people into bloodthirsty murderers.
I see it as a ticking nutjob that could not have been detected by any government system, and that the only possible better outcome might possibly have been if those shot were all armed. I also wonder if this nutjob would have been so quick to fire on a group of armed hunters. Finally, I wonder how many others this guy has killed, that we dont know about, or that were chalked up to "hunting accidents".

[Jeb]

I've heard allot of people fussing that the 7.62x39 cartridge is not good to hunt with and only a "moron" would use this round.

People are entitled to their opinions but tell that to Ruger. Here's the Mini-30's operation manual:

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/PDF/25.pdf


A quote from page 8:

"The Ruger Mini-30 is similar, but not identicle, to the Ruger Mini-14 series of rifles, and is adapted to an excellent deer hunting cartridge, the 7.62x39 MM."

It also says to only shoot ammo made to American Standards. That cheap import FMJ ammo is not the best choice for hunting obviously. But what if he was using Remington Core-Lokt or some other better quality hunting ammo? Perhaps he loaded his own ammo however that it is very unlikely. And he could have done just as much damage with a Mini-30.

I'm no ballistics expert (of course) and I know the 7.62x39 is not high power. There are much more powerful and better loads to use. Personally when I used to hunt, I used .30.30 or .30-06. I wasn't ever much of a hunter and never reloaded any. I just shot factory loads. But I don't think it makes a man a nut-job to use a 7.62x39 SKS to hunt deer.

What makes him a nut-job is using any gun to kill several obviously un-armed people. He's a killer, plain and simple.

But hey, there are guys that think a $40,000.00 4 wheel drive pickup and a $7000.00 4 wheel drive ATV is required equipment for hunting. I don't care what anybody says, these type are playing. The poor man hunting afoot with an SKS might be hungry.

I've also heard along the lines of "well, you see what happens now that these banned assualt weapons are back on the streets??" I just set back and laugh because the SKS itself was never banned. Sad and scary thing is that main-stream America doesn't know that.

[TimSr]

The 7.62x39 is a little on the light duty side for deer but will certainly do the job. Its biggest problem as a hunting round is that I dont think any US ammo MFG's make ammo for it, and most of the "idots" hunting with it are using millitary surplus ball (full metal jacket) ammo which is about the poorest choice of bullet you can find for hunting deer. If you happen to be a handloader, you can whip up some great hunting rounds with a wide selection of expanding bullets that hunters with a brain use, since its the same caliber as a 30-30, 30-06. .308, etc. Ballistically speaking, its almost identical to the 30-30 with bullet weights suitable for both guns, such as 150gr. 170gr flatnosed expanding bullets for a 30-30 are bought off the shelf at K-Mart, and 150gr bullets can easily be found with a little more effort. If you look for 7.62x39 its probably going to be a 122gr FMJ. If you shoot a deer with a 122gr FMJ, it will pass through him making a tiny hole, and he will be just as dead, but he will run a lot farther and not leave a blood trail before becoming so.
So, if you buy an SKS to hunt deer, and expect to buy ammo off the shelf for it, you are probably a moron. If you are a handloader, or are willing to spend the money having custom deer ammo made, or will special order premium hunting ammo with 150gr expanding bullets, you've pretty much got yourslef a 30-30 that looks a little different. Im not a huge fan of the 30-30 as a deer round, but its probably taken more deer than any other cartridge. I do handload, and my SKS is probably what TimJr will use when we do a boar hunt. Its fairly light and semi-auto action gives it a very mild recoil which is great for smaller younger shooters. The bayonet is not easily removed, so hopefully its presense wont do any violent mind control.
The reason Ruger recommends ammo meet American standards is that the foreign ammo is .311" caliber, and Ruger makes their rifle using the same standard .308" as any other 7.62mm round. The bullets can be more or less, used interchageably, but using surplus .311" ammo in a .308 bore can result in higher pressures, acceleratted bore wear and loss of accuracy.

[Jeb]

The 7.62x39 is a little on the light duty side for deer but will certainly do the job. Its biggest problem as a hunting round is that I dont think any US ammo MFG's make ammo for it, and most of the "idots" hunting with it are using millitary surplus ball (full metal jacket) ammo which is about the poorest choice of bullet you can find for hunting deer...


What about the Remington Ammo I wrote about? Perhaps I'm wrong, wouldnt be the first time! But I sure thought they made a 7.62x39 hunting cartridge. I've bought winchester before, but can't remember the type. i'm pretty sure it was FMJ. I only buy the cheap stuff anymore for plinkin. There are 154 grain soft point bullets but I don't know that I'd run them through a mini-30 being they are import.

It may not be the best choice for hunting but I think it's a bit extreme to refer to people who might use one as morons or idiots. Just my opinion. ;)

[Wickedfinger]

It may not be the best choice for hunting but I think it's a bit extreme to refer to people who might use one as morons or idiots. Just my opinion.
Jeb, you go right ahead and use 7.62x39 if you want to hunt whitetail ........ I'll be on my .303. Like I said before, I have seen only two or three readily available shells for the Soviet caliber - Wolf is probably the most common importer and they make it in FMJ, a hollow tip jacketed and an all lead practice round. I have seen the Remington stuff for $13/20 but its not a Noslier tip by any means like the better 30/30 round. I have fired both the hollow point and the FMJ bullets through both my SKS and my AKM - the hollow points are terrible and love to misfeed and point stick like crazy. Theres no way anyone would get through a full 10rds let alone 30. Also - while the the 30/30's balistics and powder load are a bit higher compared to the 7.62x39's - the highest weight you can buy for the Soviet round is the std. 122/125gr. Most people I know who use a 30/30 fire the heavier 150/170gr rd. One thing they do have in common is that their ballistics fail rapidly after 100yrds - which is why the 30/30 is known as "Thee" brush gun and is VERY popular here in Pa - but - the 30/30's energy is always greater. The moron and idiot part actually refered to the murderer (although in my zest to type it all out, I wasn't clear at all), however, I see your point.
The 7.62x39 is a little on the light duty side for deer but will certainly do the job.
Yes and to Tims point - I can hunt whitetail with a .38 special, and kill one - but why?
I cant speak for what WI hunting regulations allow, but heres a few more facts about the gun. The SKS has a ten round FIXED magizine. (not a detachable magazine." You have to pull back the bolt, and reload one round at a time through the top of the gun. A full auto or select fire version of the SKS was never made. It is not, nor has it ever met anybodys legal or academic definiition of an "assault rifle."
There actually are umpteen million companies that make a detatchable clip for the SKS and its an easy job to take off the 10rd fixed - I currently have a 30rd mounted, but I also have a 20rd and a 5rd detatchable that I use at the range. Tim, if you are interested, try Tapco.com or Cheaperthandirt.com

[Dan Tenn]

It is illegal to use full metal jacket ammo just for the reason Tim Sr. described. No expansion of the bullet, and a wounded deer versus a dead deer.

[TimSr]

Most people I know who use a 30/30 fire the heavier 150/170gr rd. One thing they do have in common is that their ballistics fail rapidly after 100yrds - which is why the 30/30 is known as "Thee" brush gun and is VERY popular here in Pa - but - the 30/30's energy is always greater. Yes and to Tims point - I can hunt whitetail with a .38 special, and kill one - but why?


Actually I think you are missing my point. Right from the Hogdon reloading data - 150gr bullet from 30-30 around 2350fps. From a 7.62x39 around 2200 fps. You keep eluding to the 30-30 as though it carries much greater power than the 7.62x39, and fact is, it doesnt. - IF you choose the right ammo. For that matter, where handgun hunting is legal, the .44 magnum reolver has less energy than any of those 3 rifle calibers. I do agree that both are low powered and have very limited range, and both would work well in eastern woodlands where legal. You are absolutely correct in pointing out how poor FMJ ammo is for hunting. Dan Tenn said it was illegal in his state, but in most states, the actual ammo is left to the hunters discretion and I seem to find myslef preaching against ignorance on this wherever I go. I run into the same problem with the ignorant using hollow points in pistol ammo for hunting deer.

Remington Core Lokt is great hunting ammo, but I was not aware they made anything for 7.62x39. If they make something with a 150gr bullet, My guess is that it would be fine, but its probably more likely they are offering something in 130gr which is a varmint bullet. If I were deer hunting in Texas with a rifle, though, Id prefer something with a little more range. If cost is a factor, an old 7x57 or 8x57 Mauser rifle would be major step up.

If you decide you needed some good 7.62x39 deer ammo, Im sure I could whip up some stuff with premium bullets that would outperform factory 30-30 ammo.

[hondawilly]

they should get a rope and hangem

[84honda 200X]

The SKS has actually been banned. The Russians developed the gun before Vietnam and the Chinese adn other countrys copied it. Now the Russian SKS was banned from importation to the US and a few other countries that produce the SKS have also been banned from importation. This shooter probably had a Chinese varient. Which would be a civilian version of the weapon. The bayonet is actually quite easy to remove all you need it a small punch and a ball peen hammer and pop the pin out of the bayonet base towards the muzzle. Also im offended by some of the reactions to useing this gun as a hunting rifle!! I use one at our deer camp for brushy areas and its the best gun ive ever used in the brush. Ive taken 3 deer down with it at almost 100 yards each with one shot and this is no lie that little bullit has the power to take down a deer easily.

[Wickedfinger]

You keep eluding to the 30-30 as though it carries much greater power than the 7.62x39, and fact is, it doesnt.

Actually - compare the maximum weight commercially available bullets between the 30/30 at 170gr and the 7.62x39 M1943 at 125gr and they perform as follows:
(1) 30/30 - bullet energy - muzzle - 1827ft/lbs, 100yds - 1355ft/lbs, 200yds - 989ft/lbs
(2) 7.62x39 - bullet energy - muzzle - 1445ft/lbs, 100yds - 1125ft/lbs, 200yds - 860ft/lbs
I would have to say, thats quite a bit of difference.

I will conceed that if you take the 125gr 30/30 and compare it directly with the 125gr 7.62x39 its numbers are almost the same through 200yds - but - and this is a BIG but, you wouldn't buy 125gr ammo for the 30/30 to take down whitetail. Another point that nobody seems to get here is the very big one regarding bullet design - 7.62x39 is simply put, not the type of round to hunt whitetail with - plain and simple. Another thing that hasn't been brought up here is the fact that the SKS isn't what I would call an accurate weapon by any means, especially if you were to compare it to even a well used 30/30 or .308. While I can pull reasonable groups at 25yrds on a std. ring target or crush 25 out of 25 clays lined up with my red dot sight, I cant hit anything at 100yrds if I switch to my 3x9 scope. Its a great, fun gun for plinking (I prefer it to my AKM) and I might consider taking it out on private land for Coyote or varmint. Hey, maybe I've just been subjected to too many years of state banned semi-auto loading rife hunting here in Pa., I dont know, but this is just the way I see it, thats all. I will also make a huge statement here that alot of people will take offense to - the 30.06 is not a good whitetail round either - its simply too powerful for the job - let the sparks fly ............

This shooter probably had a Chinese varient. Which would be a civilian version of the weapon.
My Type 56 Chinese (which is the proper name not SKS) is a Norinco/Chicom military model manufactured in 1983 - it is not the civilian model which did not come with the bayonet (according to Janes). In all my years of searching the local gun shows, I have never seen one of these "civilian" models. What you do see now is alot of the Yugo models with the built in grenade launchers. The only way an SKS or its variants are "illegal" is if you modify them to become so - i.e. if you decide to mount a new stock, like I have, you can not by law keep the bayonet on the rifle or else its illegal - well actually, with the expiring of the Clinton ban, it might not be anymore ..... hmmm

Now as an afterthought - I kind of feel bad that this discussion is taking place in a thread originally about how some murderer took 6 peoples lives

[84honda 200X]

The ways to tell the civilian model from a military one atleast on a chinese is the color of the bolt. If the bolt is shiny kinda white its a civilian model if its black and not glossy its a military model. The civilian model also came with a bayonet. Yours sounds like its a military one. Im jsut stating my the knowledge i have from a gun smith of ours.

[TimSr]

I just checked the Cheaper Than Dirt catalog and Wolf now makes a 154gr Soft Point, so there's your comercially available, 30-30 equivilant deer load. Ive got hunch that domestic ammo MFGs will fill this void, if they havent already, because these rifles are everywhere, and its inevitable that the demand for a deer load is there.

Mine is Chinese, but its got the blade type bayonet.

In reference to the original post, I had said I wondered how many others he killed that we dont know about. The latest news is that he is now a suspect in another unsolved shooting of a hunter a couple, years ago. If got this feeling his evil deeds dont stop there either.

[Wickedfinger]

I just checked the Cheaper Than Dirt catalog and Wolf now makes a 154gr Soft Point, so there's your comercially available, 30-30 equivilant deer load. Ive got hunch that domestic ammo MFGs will fill this void, if they havent already, because these rifles are everywhere, and its inevitable that the demand for a deer load is there.

Mine is Chinese, but its got the blade type bayonet.

In reference to the original post, I had said I wondered how many others he killed that we dont know about. The latest news is that he is now a suspect in another unsolved shooting of a hunter a couple, years ago. If got this feeling his evil deeds dont stop there either.
... Tim, thinking you confused it with the old but popular Nagant Russian rimmed cartrige, 7.62x54R - which is a 154gr bullet, I checked Cheaper Than Dirt and voila, you are right, Wolf does import a 154gr bullet, which is probably just the rimmed cartridges .308 comperable military bullet necked into the M1943 casing. Nobody else including Remington, Winchester or Federal seems to make it above a 125gr. SP. In any event I was in a Dick's today on lunch and 122gr was the only load they had - it was Wolf hollow point and the dude behind the counters (whos been there for as long as I can remember) exact words were (after he found it his duty to "learn me" that I can not hunt anything in Pa. with an SKS) "what the hell would you want to hunt white tail with that round for?". I replied back "precisely". I was talking to a couple of fellow hunters this morning about this thread and they had a more realistic answer for me - "Sure you can hunt white tail with that round ...... but why?", which is what I said from the beginning. I do have to say again though, given your choice between just these two, would you rather use a 30/30 or an SKS to hunt deer?.

I found this on the web - this was copied from Hunter Mag.


As a sporting cartridge the 7.62x39 has limited usefulness. It will reliably kill varmints, predators, and medium game animals weighing up to about 100 pounds (like pronghorn antelope and Coues' deer) at short range, but these animals are seldom encountered at short range. In a decent carbine like the Ruger Ranch Rifle, it will serve for hunting small deer at woods ranges. It would probably be an excellent Javelina cartridge. The Federal Ammunition Catalog calls it a medium game cartridge.

The 7.62x39's standard 123-125 grain bullet (SD .184) is too light and lacks sufficient penetration to make the 7.62x39 a reliable cartridge for the larger species of deer (like Columbian blacktail, the larger subspecies of whitetail, and mule deer). Certainly it will kill large deer at close range with well placed shots, but so will many cartridges deemed unsuitable for general deer hunting purposes. Rifles for the 7.62x39 are typically more expensive, less accurate, and less effective at all ranges than rifles for the classic .30-30 Winchester cartridge. For the person seeking very light recoil in a deer cartridge the 6mm PPC, .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, 250 Savage, and .257 Roberts will also outperform the 7.62x39 at all ranges. In conclusion, there is little justification for selecting a 7.62x39 carbine for deer hunting.

[TimSr]

For myself, it wouldnt make a dimes worth of difference, keeping in mind, I handload everything I shoot anyways, and I enjoy getting beaten with heavy recoil. I dont consider the 30-30 to have heavy recoil but a younger kid or a woman might have a different perspective, and a beginner that is prone to flinching would probably shoot better with the SKS. The other pluses to the SKS besides less recoil, is lower cost and cheaper to shoot if you by cases of ammo. The only downside it has over the 30-30 is deer ammo availability which isnt a problem for guys who make their own. Youve also got more bullet selections for SKS, and youre not stuck with flat nose bullets.

Im not a big fan of high velocity small caliber rifles for deer hunting in eastern woodlands. Where shots are typically well under 100yrds, nothing is more effective than a 12 guage slug. If I were to use a rifle, Id go to a slower moving big bore like a .45-70 or .444 Marlin. 30-30 or SKS would be about my last choice. If I were again hunting out west, with longer distances Id bypass the 30-30 and the SKS without hesitation and use my 7MM Rem. Mag, or .06 or .308. For a kid, though, Id rather they used an SKS they can shoot well, than a better gun that they are afraid of.

In the real world, though I live in Ohio, where deer can only be hunted with shotgun or handgun. When I lived in Pa. I hunted deer with a Freedom Arms .454 Casull, except in Montgomery Co. where I had to use 12 guage slugs. I took the same pistol to Alaska to get my black bear. Do to poorly written laws, I had to use my Ruger .44 Magum in Ohio until a few years ago, when they changed the laws so that my .454 Casull is now legal here. Kind of like ATV riding, the skill of the hunter means more to me than what he spends on his equipment. I use a scoped .22 for squirrels, or whatever rifle I havent shot in a while for groundhogs, but thats about the only rifle hunting I do. The last deer i shot with a rifle was in Ca. in 1986 with a 7.7 Jap Arisaka converted to 30.06.

I agree with the magazine article almost completely, but once again, their opinions are based on the 125gr bullet, which I totally agree, is useless on deer. I do not agree that the 30-30 is less expensive and more accurate. And their claim that the 30-30 is more effective, is once yet again based on a 125gr bullet comparison. Every claim they make would be just as true if you compared a 30-30 deer round with 125gr 30-30 round.

[Wickedfinger]

Where did you live in Mont. co.?. The gun law is the same here in Bucks - no rifle.

[Dan Tenn]

You said that you are against using hollow points in pistols for deer. I am not experienced with pistols, and would appreciate a little further reasoning for this. I would have bought hollow points if I were to use a pistol. Im confused, help. :wondering

[Jeb]

Jeb, you go right ahead and use 7.62x39 if you want to hunt whitetail ........ I'll be on my .303. Like I said before, I have seen only two or three readily available shells for the Soviet caliber - Wolf is probably the most common importer and they make it in FMJ, a hollow tip jacketed and an all lead practice round. I have seen the Remington stuff for $13/20 but its not a Noslier tip by any means like the better 30/30 round. I have fired both the hollow point and the FMJ bullets through both my SKS and my AKM - the hollow points are terrible and love to misfeed and point stick like crazy. Theres no way anyone would get through a full 10rds let alone 30. Also - while the the 30/30's balistics and powder load are a bit higher compared to the 7.62x39's - the highest weight you can buy for the Soviet round is the std. 122/125gr. Most people I know who use a 30/30 fire the heavier 150/170gr rd. One thing they do have in common is that their ballistics fail rapidly after 100yrds - which is why the 30/30 is known as "Thee" brush gun and is VERY popular here in Pa - but - the 30/30's energy is always greater. The moron and idiot part actually refered to the murderer (although in my zest to type it all out, I wasn't clear at all), however, I see your point.


Wicked, check this out. I hope i didn't miss anything in your response. This is where I buy my 7.62x39 ammo. Towards the bottom of the list is two listings for Wolf ammo with a 154 grain soft point bullet:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=20224&category=Centerfire+Rifle+Ammunition&dept%5Fname=Wolf&mscssid=ANEG0VBJBDF19JNK81X733A8E4NGBRJ4

The store is just up the road from work and I run over at lunch sometimes. I believe they sell the 154 grain soft point ammo by single box off the shelf. I'll check for sure next time. Not that it makes any difference. I only ever target shoot and buy the cheaper Wolf FMJ.

And I agree with you, my choice personally would not be 7.62x39 even though I have one, even using that 154 grain ammo. In brush I too would much rather use a .30-30 and on open ground I like a .30-06. I've used both those in the past and I like them. My brother takes a deer or two every year with his .270 win. Though he could probably harvest more at night with his AR and night vision scope! :beer

The guy in question is a moron. and a murderer and would more than likely swing here in TX.

[Jeb]

Hey Wicked, just saw your other post where you saw the 154 grain Wolf at Cheaper Than Dirt! ;) I replied to soon!

I work with a guy that uses a Mini-30 to hunt sometimes. He told me he uses 7.62x39 Remington Core-Lokt and told me where to get it, but I can't find much on the net about it. Even at Remingtons web-site.

For what it's worth, I've enjoyed reading this post even though I lead it to stray a bit off topic. And I respect you guys opinions immensly!

This whole post reminds me of something a friend of mine used to say "beware the man who owns one gun, as he probably knows how to use it!"

[Wickedfinger]

Jeb, where can you get it?. I thought I did a pretty thorough search of Remingtons website.

[Jeb]

Wicked, Like GW I got bad intel! :beer

The guy with the Mini-30 that I know got confused. He uses Core-Lokt in a different rifle and Express in his Mini-30.

There are also soft points available through Federal, Winchester and PMC. But they are smaller grain bullets like 123-124.



Here's something of interest. Glaser 130 grain safety slug:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?sku=73125&mscssid=ANEG0VBJBDF19JNK81X733A8E4NGBRJ4

[ATC crazy]

I also own a Chinese SKS (1966). They are not full-auto like some people have stated...The bolt wasnt designed for full-auto use and can crack/shatter when used like so.

The 7.62x39 is not a bad round for hunting. Yes the FMJ is...but not the HP or SP which my family has used for years without a single wounded deer running off.
SKS's have stripper clips that make loading the 10 round fixed magazine faster than switching out magazines (considering if you can easily change the awkward duck-billed detachable mag.)
And whoever said that the Hollow Points dont load and jam is just completely wrong. There is most likely something wrong with your mag/breech setup.

Besides this matter....Guns dont kill people....people kill people!

[ATC crazy]

By the way...anyone looking for more information on the SKS...check out www.sksboards.com/forum

Basically, you must win the 10-or-less game for the gun to be legal. That means that no more than 10 items of the gun can be imported. You can put a stock on it without changing the legality of it (most aftermatket stocks are made in the US (ATI))

And Wickedfinger...are your detachable magazines the ones made in the USA? 99% of the aftermarket mags have terrible feed problems. Almost all of them need to be tweeked to make them load more than 2 or 3 rounds before misfeeding...which could be why you (or was it someone else?) have feed problems with Hollow Points.

[honda200boyatc]

in the paper he sayed 3 differnt storys and he now says he was in a trance its all BS.i hpe he gets locked away he will get charged with 6 acounts of intentional murder and 2 of attemted murder.