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seadoo650
12-29-2005, 09:01 PM
I Have a few questions for anyone in field of Diesel repair.

More specifically for a 1998 International 4700 with a t444e engine.
It is currently in a repair shop and they can't figure out why it looses power frequently. It does'nt outright die but just sputters and looses engine power while driving. If I stop and shut it off and restart it then it runs fine again.

There is really no indication of when it will happen. Usually when under acceleration but sometimes just when driving.

I've checked the fuel for gelling but it also does it when the temp is above 40 degrees. Replaces the fuel filter, fuel water seperator and drain and flushed the tank.

So far it has been in the shop for three days to no avail. And any help would be appreciated. If I can't drive the truck for work I can't make any money for my trikes.

Thansk in advance for your help.
Rick Firstenberger/Mac Tools Independant Distributor.

smokinwrench
12-30-2005, 12:17 AM
Whats the fuel psi when it acts up?

What boost psi when it acts up?

Does it mess up with a full tank as often as with below half tank?

I have seen somehting like this before a few years ago. It was the little wrapper thing that you have to pull off before you can pour the gallon jug of diesel additive in. The wrapper would suck onto the fuel tube intermittently while driving.

ClayW
12-30-2005, 12:32 AM
My bet is the injector pump. Those symptoms on a Cummins Diesel Engine indicates a bad Injector pump practically Every Time. Not The fuel pump Bat the injector pump. Most Cost $1000 or more. Cummins pump runs about $1500. hope this helps.

ClayW
12-30-2005, 12:50 AM
If your Injector pump is bad, your fuel pump is likely shot too. It may be what caused the pump to fail.

smokinwrench
12-30-2005, 12:54 AM
Does it mess up if you run it out of a 5 gallon bucket and bypass the fuel tank completly? That would be one of the first tests I would have done.

Jason Hall
12-30-2005, 10:27 AM
A 444e is an electric engine, that has a computer that runs the injectors along with a high pressure oil pump. They are nothing like a old style cummins pt injection pump. They do have a fuel pump though, most have a mechanical pump in the valley between the heads under the fuel filter. I have seen in the older S-series with a Dt 466 or Dt 366 the pickup tubes in the fuel tanks vibrate & crack the welds then the fuel pump sucks air, that problem will happen only when the fuel level drops to a certain point. They are also prone to the injector cups, or injector o-rings leaking. In that case the compression is pushed into the fuel ports surrounding the injectors. That will cause the engine to run rough, especially under a load. Another thing to check is to see if it has a plugged catalatic converter. I know on the early models 444E's they had trouble with the converters plugging, IH blammed it on letting them idle for long periods of time. I have also fixed 444E's with bad valve cover gaskets. Yea this sounds stupid, but the injector harness's are built into the valve cover gaskets. Let us know what you find out. My bet is on the injector o-rings. That will cause the problem you described, another thing is maybe bad computer grounds. The shop should be able to check for air in the fuel, All you really need to do to check that is link into the fuel return line with a 1/4 turn valve & a piece of hose. Then crack the 1/4 turn valve open & let it bleed into a bottle with fuel in it. If you see any tiny little bubbles you need to check all the suction lines for air leakage, if they arent leaking then you probly have injector o-rings leaking compression into the fuel port.

seadoo650
12-30-2005, 09:15 PM
Whats the fuel psi when it acts up?

What boost psi when it acts up?

Does it mess up with a full tank as often as with below half tank?

I have seen somehting like this before a few years ago. It was the little wrapper thing that you have to pull off before you can pour the gallon jug of diesel additive in. The wrapper would suck onto the fuel tube intermittently while driving.

I'm not sure about fuel pressure but I know it sounds like hardly any boost when it does it. I have drained and flushed the tank but your theory on the wrapper sounds like a good one.

seadoo650
12-30-2005, 09:17 PM
My bet is the injector pump. Those symptoms on a Cummins Diesel Engine indicates a bad Injector pump practically Every Time. Not The fuel pump Bat the injector pump. Most Cost $1000 or more. Cummins pump runs about $1500. hope this helps.

I have asked the techs about this and they said if the injector pump goes the problem would persist and not reset by shutting off the engine and restarting it.

seadoo650
12-30-2005, 09:20 PM
Does it mess up if you run it out of a 5 gallon bucket and bypass the fuel tank completly? That would be one of the first tests I would have done.

It's never does it while idleing only while driving. Not sure if i can do the trick with the bucket while driving.

seadoo650
12-30-2005, 09:27 PM
A 444e is an electric engine, that has a computer that runs the injectors along with a high pressure oil pump. They are nothing like a old style cummins pt injection pump. They do have a fuel pump though, most have a mechanical pump in the valley between the heads under the fuel filter. I have seen in the older S-series with a Dt 466 or Dt 366 the pickup tubes in the fuel tanks vibrate & crack the welds then the fuel pump sucks air, that problem will happen only when the fuel level drops to a certain point. They are also prone to the injector cups, or injector o-rings leaking. In that case the compression is pushed into the fuel ports surrounding the injectors. That will cause the engine to run rough, especially under a load. Another thing to check is to see if it has a plugged catalatic converter. I know on the early models 444E's they had trouble with the converters plugging, IH blammed it on letting them idle for long periods of time. I have also fixed 444E's with bad valve cover gaskets. Yea this sounds stupid, but the injector harness's are built into the valve cover gaskets. Let us know what you find out. My bet is on the injector o-rings. That will cause the problem you described, another thing is maybe bad computer grounds. The shop should be able to check for air in the fuel, All you really need to do to check that is link into the fuel return line with a 1/4 turn valve & a piece of hose. Then crack the 1/4 turn valve open & let it bleed into a bottle with fuel in it. If you see any tiny little bubbles you need to check all the suction lines for air leakage, if they arent leaking then you probly have injector o-rings leaking compression into the fuel port.

Well it does'nt seen to matter if the fuel tank is full or low so I don't think the cracked tubes is it. The o-rings sound probable. The shop also say's something called a body personality sensor is'nt communicating with the e.c.m. Great my truck has a personality! They told me the sensor runs about $830 but could not guarantee it would fix it and if it does not then I can't return it. Go figure.

Jason Hall
12-30-2005, 10:55 PM
If I were you I would take it to an International dealer. The place were you have it might not have the correct plug for the ecm & they never will comunicate with it. If the cat was plugged it will not act up when idling. I was just saying that International claimed idling made the converter plug. If the exhaust was plugged it will mess up worse when under a load. If it can't get the exhaust out it will run like crap. The thing is though if the cat was plugged it would do it pretty consistently, not intermitently.

seadoo650
12-31-2005, 06:13 PM
Jason. The international dealer is prolly where it will go next. It's just that they could not get me in for a few weeks and a few weeks without out my truck is like two weeks unpaid vacation. I can't afford that right now.

Thanks for the tips though.

Jason Hall
12-31-2005, 07:11 PM
No pay really stinks, I feel for ya. Does it smoke when it is doing what it does?

seadoo650
01-01-2006, 12:37 PM
No pay really stinks, I feel for ya. Does it smoke when it is doing what it does?

Yea it does smoke a little if I hold the peddle down when it is acting up.

88 Turbo Coupe
01-01-2006, 02:25 PM
I had some probs. with my 5.9 Cummins. Called Cummins to find out who is an authorized repair shop. They gave me a few names. I come to find out that some of the shops don't even have any Cummins trained mechanics and the DB gets $90 bucks a labor/hour. I took my truck to the Disrtict Cummins shop. They got all the right stuff there. Truck runs great now. My advice to you is take it to the IH district area repair shop too. You will be spending your money wisely.

Dirtcrasher
01-01-2006, 02:43 PM
I had a 353 detroit that would all of a sudden just start to struggle and die. 2 minutes later I'd fire it up and it would run fine again.....I begin taking apart fuel lines and filters and that didn't fix it either but I was sure it was a fuel delivery problem. I decided to drain the fuel tank. There was a 90 degree 3/8 NPT street elbow at the bottom of the tank outlet. It had a leaf and some pine needles stuck in it. I cleaned it out and upsized to 1/2 NPT and that fixed it. The ahole that had it before me use to fuel it up under trees while searching for funnels and fuel tanks......

Jason Hall
01-01-2006, 08:36 PM
I would check the boost pressure, your turbo could have bad bearings. That could cause the turbine to stop suddenly then all the suddon take off & spinn again. In that case you would get black or grey smoke. There are alot of basic things they should check first, like compression finding it's way past the injector o-rings. The feul lines sucking air, the lift pump that feeds the injector's, plugged exhaust, clogged air filter. There are a bunch of electric controls that could cause the same problem. A bad throttle position sensor 1- bad wire between the computer & the engine making contact then not. I would love to know what they find. So keep us posted on the results. Hopfully they find it soon.

seadoo650
01-02-2006, 05:44 PM
No word yet. Damn shop closed for the holidays. I'll get info tomorrow. Maybe I'll just limp it up to you in MI. LOL

Unclediezel
01-02-2006, 06:17 PM
BPS sensor not communicating with ECM??? Shut it off and restart its ok? -Sounds computer/electrical related-----
Body module measures fuel level and reports back to ECM ---ecm stops fuel delivery when tank reaches a predetermined "LOW" point.
Also check the Fuel Cap----and Vapor vent controls-----as these can "SKEW" fuel level readings.

seadoo650
01-04-2006, 11:19 PM
Got it to International dealer yesterday. They had a quick look at it today and think it's the cam sensor. Cheap part and a quick fix. I'm keepin my fingers crossed.

Jason Hall
01-05-2006, 10:50 AM
Well ya gotta love that. I will be helping you hope thats it. It's pretty amazing what can be done with the right diagnostic equipment.

WIkid500
01-05-2006, 11:36 PM
damn 13 sh1t spredders. lol I had too. sorry about that. hope you get it fixed soon!

seadoo650
01-06-2006, 08:47 PM
Well it's been at the international dealer for three days now and nothing. No codes on the diag. equip. and won't do it while driving. I'm gonna get a horse and buggy. lol Suprizing how my 20 year old trikes run perfect and a 7 year old computer controlled piece of crap does'nt. Excuse me while I piss on my keyboard. Anyways I'll try callin them tonight and see what they say.

WIkid500
01-06-2006, 09:12 PM
Well it's been at the international dealer for three days now and nothing. No codes on the diag. equip. and won't do it while driving. I'm gonna get a horse and buggy. lol Suprizing how my 20 year old trikes run perfect and a 7 year old computer controlled piece of crap does'nt. Excuse me while I piss on my keyboard. Anyways I'll try callin them tonight and see what they say.


so true about that computer crap... your excused! lol

seadoo650
01-07-2006, 11:15 AM
Called last night and they said it's the ecm. Gonna cost $1700.00 to fix by Monday. CRAP

smokinwrench
01-07-2006, 12:47 PM
At least you know whats wrong with it.

Your dealer should be ashamed that it took this long to diagnose the problem. You tell them smokinwrench said you deserve a major discount on labor.:beer

seadoo650
01-08-2006, 10:15 AM
At least you know whats wrong with it.

Your dealer should be ashamed that it took this long to diagnose the problem. You tell them smokinwrench said you deserve a major discount on labor.:beer

I'll tell them.

Talking to the guy I bought it off of now to see if it will be covered under my 90 day warranty. He's acting like he will not pay for it. If this is the case I will see him at mac tools tool fair and do my best to deter any potential buyers from him. This little $1700.00 repair will end up costing him a couple hundred grand in lost sales. His used trucks start at $30.000 and the new ones go for around $75 to $100 Grand.

seadoo650
01-18-2006, 12:54 AM
Just to update everone that helped me out on this issue. The truck was there for 2 weeks total. After the monkeys threw every part on the shelf at it and got a call from the area international rep and their genreal manager they finally figured it out. Ready??? Here it is. A small hose somewhere in the fuel system had deteriorated (sp?) aand clogged the check valve to the left side of the motor. Fuel pressure up the pieces block fuel. Shut it off and the clog goes away until later.

Anyways the asses tried to charge me for 12 hours worth of labor for all the wrong fixes. That's $1300.00. When I complained about the high labor charge for non fixes the service manager threatened to call a tow truck and have it towed off the property. So far I've got them to $650.00 and still workin them down. Am I wrong in not wanting to pay for two weeks of throwing parts at it and not fixing it???? I don't think so. The whole 14 years I spend in the shop I never got paid for my wrong decisions.

After all being said and done I will say that the shop it was at, Center City International in Columbus Ohio, is without a doubt the WORST place of business I have ever delt with.

Thanks to everyone for all their help. And letting me vent a little.

smokinwrench
01-18-2006, 01:34 AM
I'm sure $1,300 is nothign compared to the lost revenue.

They should have been able to find that within a few hours of troubleshooting. If they would have checked fuel psi while driving it they would have seen the psi drop and the motor start to die.

My thought is 4 hours troubleshooting tops and the time it took to repair it.

Dirtcrasher
01-18-2006, 07:23 PM
This is why all of us including yourself try and fix everything before we let anyone else touch it. But the thing is, when and if we do take something to a professional we expect them to get it done fast and correctly because they have the tools and knowledge that we don't. Unfortunately the few things I've ever paid someone to do for me left me wishing I could have done it myself.
Case in point...I recently got a recall on my 94 Toy 4X4 truck. Went down to my dealer and found out that the solid tie rod between the 2 adjustable tie rods was prone to cracking and failure. I asked what was involved in there procedure and was told "Alot of things can happen while replacing that part and you will be responsible for the additional labor and parts". How much you want to bet that I'd be out 300$ by the time I get my free tie rod link?? So I asked if I could have the part and put it in myself because I'm certain I won't ruin anything replacing it. I was told that they had to install it or no deal. I'll take my chances and continue to drive it because THEY ARE ALL CROOKS!!!!!!
Anyhow, they should have found your problem licaty split and they should be embarassed for not doing so. Maybe some diagnostics time should be reimbursed and the actual repair but thats it!! I'd stress the down time with your truck and there lack of ability to quickly find the problem. Good luck!

seadoo650
01-19-2006, 09:35 PM
I'd gladly trade the down time revenue lost for their ,$1300.00 Monkey throwing parts techs, Time on it. Let's see about $1000 a day times 10 days. You do the math. I'm still gonna try to call their general manager again and express my displeasure with the whole ordeal. I've got two calls into the S.O.B. so far with no return calls. Maybe the S.O.B. would like to talk to the B.B.B. HAHA.

western star
01-20-2006, 06:13 PM
I got a 97 western star and mine did the same thing by the way it sounds,anyway it could be a fuel injector hitting and missing.mine did it and took it to peterbuilt noyhin wrong they said,drove it did it again took it back and it was injector # 2. Did you ask if that maybe could be a optoin??