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250r'en +TCB
03-21-2006, 09:52 PM
Well like most people on hear, I have always dreamt of building an ATC500R. However, mine will be unique, and perhaps a little "nuttier" than the others I think!:lol: Here's what Im thinking, tell me what you think.....

Take a 85/6 R frame, weld brackets to mount cr500 engine. Then TRY and keep the STOCK swinger! A +2 swinger AT MOST!!! (seeing why it's nuts yet?) Now obviously I will have to gear it for top end speed, and get sprockets for top end!!! Basicly a 250r with a cr500 engine in it, or a +1 or +2 swinger....
Now the reason I would do this is because I see everyone elses 500r's and they have huge swingers on them that would make them useless on even the easiest of woods trails with gradual turns!!! I want to build a 500r I can ride in the woods!!! Now I know I would never be able to go on tight, windy trails, but I do want to be able to ride on decent woods trails!!
Do you believe you could gear a CR500 engine down enough so that it would still have bottom end to climb hills and such, but without it landing on your chest!!!
Now this machine would WITHOUT a doubt require tremendous skill to ride but given time and expierence, do you think my 500R is possible or even feasable????:beer
Thanks guys, Devin

nouseforaname90
03-21-2006, 09:55 PM
I personally wouldn't do it. Why isn't a 250cc 2-stroke engine big enough for woods? That is really the ideal woods-riding size. 500cc is just overkill. There is nothing that you will ever need that kind of power for.. the 500cc conversion is more for dragging..

250r'en +TCB
03-21-2006, 10:04 PM
Yeah I COMPLETELY understand where you coming from with that, really I do........ But then agian why do we have sports cars? why can't we all just have regular cars? The answer is really simple, the constant human drive to get BIGGER, go FASTER and be BETTER than the other guy!!! I really wouldn't mind getting out on the frozen lakes up here in the winter, and opening up a cr500 engine that is geared high!!!!!!
I was just thinking, would I be better off to put an older air-cooled 500 engine in this? less power so it might be a lot more practicle....... It would still haul arse no doubt!!!! But it may be a more realistic dream......... anyone agree??http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e306/ATCteen/air500.jpg

nouseforaname90
03-21-2006, 10:15 PM
Lol.. Bigger, Faster, Better. Not a good moto to live by. Personally I'd just save myself alot of hassle and get that R ported. Either that or buy a 310/330 Big Bore kit for it.. It would be alot easier and possibly cheaper.. Either ported and modified or with a big bore kit.. its going to scream..

250r'en +TCB
03-21-2006, 10:18 PM
hahaha I want to keep my R at 250cc, someday when i go to TF I'll be racing in the 250 class I'm sure. Plus they do ice racing around here and I'd either have to go in the 250cc class, or the UNLIMITED class! The unlimited class in guys with 400cc banshee's, 330R's and crazy crap like that! Plus I want to keep the reliability factor!!!
And what do you mean that's not a good moto to live by!?!?!?! Is there some other moto I should be living by or something? hahaha

200x Basket
03-21-2006, 10:21 PM
with a stock swinger it would be a waste. i doubt you could you ride it once it hit the pipe.

250r'en +TCB
03-21-2006, 10:25 PM
with a stock swinger it would be a waste. i doubt you could you ride it once it hit the pipe.
Um, translation please??? hahaha sorry I can't comprahend it man, I tried though!! :lol: :confused:

RideRed250R
03-21-2006, 10:25 PM
not to dis... but have you ever ridden a CR500? your post makes me think you havent.... if you woudl really want to go crazy lol i think a +4 would be a hand full....dont go air cooled the air cooled 500's are time bombs and suck... thats y there was only one year of them.... if i where going air cooled i would build my dream R... a 83 480R.... that would be the tightest woods bike EVER...
Adam

nouseforaname90
03-21-2006, 10:26 PM
Um, translation please??? hahaha sorry I can't comprahend it man, I tried though!! :lol: :confused:

He's basically saying that the bike wouldn't be able to handle the power once it hit the powerband with the stock swinger..

250r'en +TCB
03-21-2006, 10:30 PM
Yeah this is why I'm saying geared high, 12 or 11 tooth front sproket and big rear one!!! And if I had an air-cooled 500 (or 480 perhaps) engine that would put a dent in the power as well...... Like I said, maybe a +1 or +2 swinger if it's absolutely nesassry.....

nouseforaname90
03-21-2006, 10:31 PM
Whats the use of having the big engine if its geared so low? I'd personally say do it right or don't do it at all..

250r'en +TCB
03-21-2006, 10:34 PM
TOP end, I'd gear it so i could ride it with a short swinger, but it wouldn't be gutless low end!!! and no I havn't riden a 500r, fastest thing I've thrown a leg over was either a 900 snowmobile, or a 330R if you are talking ATV's......
That 480R looks promising to BTW.....
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://100megsfree4.com/honda/h0400/cr480r-83.jpg&imgrefurl=http://100megsfree4.com/honda/h0400/cr480.htm&h=188&w=325&sz=16&tbnid=GMPKj1lAWCfQKM:&tbnh=65&tbnw=114&hl=en&start=2&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcr480r%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D %26safe%3Doff

KASEY
03-21-2006, 11:02 PM
i rode my 500 in the woods alot,, with a 4" arm,,, it was fun there was no way you needed a fraction of the power . BUT , man was it fun to ROAST the tires at any given rpm,, the biggest problem i had was traction. i had brand new tires and it still didn't make any difference it just threw more roost ,,,, the nice thing about it was very little shifting ,, it use to piss off the bike guys when they were behind me cause 2 11" wide tires throw alot of mud when they are spinning 70 mph in the mud!!:lol: :lol: :lol:

200x Basket
03-21-2006, 11:20 PM
Yeah this is why I'm saying geared high, 12 or 11 tooth front sproket and big rear one!!! And if I had an air-cooled 500 (or 480 perhaps) engine that would put a dent in the power as well...... Like I said, maybe a +1 or +2 swinger if it's absolutely nesassry.....

your gearing is a backwards as your logic. you want 16/34 gearing.

Billy Golightly
03-21-2006, 11:34 PM
I'd reccomend riding a CR500 or something of comparable power (and vibration) before setting out to do this. And...I'm gonna also reccomend for woods application you build/find someone to help build a purpose built frame. Dont hack up a 250R one or use the dirtbike frame. Do it right and make one for it.

BigGreenMachine
03-22-2006, 12:17 AM
I see where your coming from and I like the idea a lot. I think the reasoning behind it is you could chug though the tighter trails and not have to clutch it to keep moving over the most technical obstacles. I'd go with a torquier aircooled 480 CR or 500KX motor and gear it like XBasket said. Also would use the Aircooled R chassis if the sprocket sides of both bikes are correct. The extended swinger would help in the trails, especially when your trike comes on the pipe on a hill. I have a +2 on my T3 and it still comes up when I don't want it to, wheelying "off" the beaten path isn't fun on a 250, let alone a 480 CR. I would think a +2 at least on an airfooler chassis. Mine doesn't hinder turning at all and I ride some of the tightest trails. Just keep the stock width axle because the extended axle cuts down on how many lines you can take through an obstacle. Skidplates and taller 22 inch tires, 9 inch wheels are a must to keep above rocks and all the other sharp/solid crap. I want one now. lol

KASEY said:


,,,, the nice thing about it was very little shifting ,, it use to piss off the bike guys when they were behind me cause 2 11" wide tires throw alot of mud when they are spinning 70 mph in the mud!!

Thats one good reason to do it...

I have my Tecate geared way low, so much so that 5th gear is useless on a straight. The low gearing is so that I don't have to do so much clutchwork in the woods to get over slow/technical obstacles that you can't get into the powerband on. Hills are a 3rd gear, tires spinning moving me foward but not lifting the front end on me situation but I would really like a torquier motor. I'm soon installing my MX ported cylinder and shaved head to make the motor a little stronger off the bottom. An issue that wouldn't need to be addressed with a big bore, aircooled pinger.

rant off

monster 84r
03-22-2006, 12:35 AM
im with most of you guys, i think a 500 cr conversion for trails would be serious overkill. if your so intent on having a 500 tcb, why not check out the sabertooth 500 top end kit? that way you dont have to go through all the work of making the cr motor fit.

has anyone tried putting a 480 motor into an airpinger? how does it fit? if its feasable id try it.

RideRed250R
03-22-2006, 01:40 AM
i have seriously searched about the conversion... seen pictures and i might pull it off in the summer along with a 370 power valve R...with the 480 your problem is all the mounts sound jsut be ground off... no need.. witha cr500 in a water pumper chasis you have to dimple... grind off the mounts.. fab new ones up and your done... now its not that easy but far less then the air cooled... air cooled basically you can just cut all motor mounts from before off... and cut the two braces in the rear of the cage... now set the motor in and from there its all fab.... i dont know if you have to dimple the frame or not... but all your new mounts have to be super duper strong as its going to be holding the motor DIRECTLY to the frame... with a cr500 into a atc250R waterpumper you can sorta rubber mount it... and some of the mounts you can use..... as for TCB... get a 265PV...still be one heck of a ice racer... an done heck of a tree shooter... if you want more power.. get a 310 send it off to saber, trinity or DMR all places will bring it to about 65-66 RWHP with the right tune, and parts,

here is your starting point
39.R PWK
TNT DMR CDI
Vforce Reeds
Upp intake
265PV-310 big bore kit
PT HR pipe
and call it even.. there will be more pwoer then you will ever need... my 310 with my current dialed in jetting (DEAD ON MAN) the thing wont keep the front down anywhere near the torque curve or powerband... like i said if you wanna roll down the competition honestly look into a stroker 370 motor... that might be my next move....
Adam

250r'en +TCB
03-22-2006, 03:55 PM
im with most of you guys, i think a 500 cr conversion for trails would be serious overkill. if your so intent on having a 500 tcb, why not check out the sabertooth 500 top end kit? that way you dont have to go through all the work of making the cr motor fit.

has anyone tried putting a 480 motor into an airpinger? how does it fit? if its feasable id try it.

I found the sabertooth 500 kit you were talking about. http://www.cpindinc.com/index.html But in their site it dosn't really say what exactly you do in order to run one. Do they just cell the cylinder and you bold it on to a 250r crankcase or something!?!?! I need more esplanation on this subjest please, I am defiantly interested in this kit all of the sudden.....:w00t: :beer
Thanks, Devin

cr500=3wheeler
03-22-2006, 04:44 PM
try this link instead might find a little more info on the sabertooth cylinder
http://www.saberracing.com/

Bigbore
03-23-2006, 03:56 PM
The Saber Tooth kit is a novel idea, but not practical. For the cost of the Saber Tooth kit you could buy the CR500 motor and still have money left over for a new +4 swinger. I wouldn't EVER buy a 500cc kit to put on a 250cc case. The clutch as well as most of the rest of the internals won't last long, i.e. shift forks, gears, crank, etc. I have a Mugen 360cc on an '81 and itís almost too much for the 250cc cases. I know the first thing that youíre thinking... The '85 and up cases are stronger. No their not. The crank and the bearings are almost the same size. Besides, why ???? Spending thousands of dollars to get a 250 to put out 30 to 50% more power, when a stock CR500 will double the hp for $1,200.

Anyone that thinks a 500cc is too much for trails hasn't ridden a 500 on trails. Personally I wouldn't ride anything smaller than a 500, unless youíre with the wife and kids playing. Who wants to manipulate a powerband, keeping their machine from stalling like you have to do on a 250cc. Then again most of the country doesn't have trails like we do in Colorado.

Rideable Colorado trails will take you from 5,000' to 13,000' in a real short time. Tight trails with serious drop-off's and trees and downed timber all over, the last thing you want is an underpowered machine. CC's are the best cure. Iíve ridden my 250R at 14,000' and had to get off to push it up the small hill to get going again because the lack of power at that altitude.

If anyone wanted to do something cool for our 3 and 4 wheelers is come up with an EFI like the open, or even a closed, loop system Holley Projection but for the smaller engines.

Best motto for the power hungry... "Its better to have it and not need it... than need it and not have it".

conig
03-23-2006, 05:00 PM
short and long term diability, seriously look into it.

if its what you want do it, but I as well think it would be hard to handle and a plus 4 won;t decrease trail use that much if any.

BigGreenMachine
03-23-2006, 05:13 PM
I think a +2 and CR480 motor in a 83/84 Fooler chassis would be fine. Gear it so you can torque your way over the rough stuff without much clutch use. I guess that would be the biggest benefit over the two fifty. Where I ride, if you get on the pipe, in most cases you'll end up off the trail in the evergreens. Lots of chugging along/clutchwork where a fourstroke or torquey (spelling) big bore would be a choice weapon. Ever consider a 350X? It would suit your riding just fine.

Ryah
03-23-2006, 05:44 PM
I've got a CR500. It has a moose weld on flywheel ( I think it's Aloop now), biggest they offered at the time. It really tames the motor down. It's a 90 so it's no where near an 85 or 86. Had both of those too. Keep it stock with a flywheel weight and it's powerband is like the old fabled Maico. It will make a great woods bike. You don't have to use all the throttle, it's just nice to know that it's there when you need it.

BigGreenMachine
03-23-2006, 07:22 PM
Exactly, the throttle works both ways.

dufrain
03-23-2006, 07:32 PM
Im Not sure about the 83, 480 but the 82 only had the 4 speed for motocross only transmission .It was like having 2-5 and sucked bad in the trails even being in a dirt bike.It was worse than having a jumpy low first gear since at low speed it would bog then you gas it a little more to keep from killing it and snap, it turned the tire over alot and your looking at the sky.I would way rather have had a low first and controlled it with the throttle.The 4th gear was easy to wrap out on a good straitaway.Those ratios were picked for the track by Roger Decoster and just suck for trails.I would definately go for a wide ratio trans 500.The 87 cr500 was a brute,the gear ratios in that were a lot wider .If the 83 has a 5 spd trans air cooled would be alot easier to stuff in that frame.Whatever you end up with make sure you have the rear brake set to Hair trigger .

250r'en +TCB
03-23-2006, 09:13 PM
Yeah the 83 480 definatly seems like the way to go, the 5 speed is a must.
Now I researched more into the saberooth 500, defiantly not a cheap or reliable ride by ANY means!
So I have come to the conclusion that when i get around to doing this I'll be using the 83 480. Now as for what to mount it in I'm stuck. Billy says make my own frame, but could I just mount it in a 350x frame? Beef up the brakes for sure!!! hahaha suspension to!
Off subjest on the brakes for this beast, has anyone ever put rice rocket front brakes on a trike? You know the dual double piston calipers up front??? Seems like it would be possible, and it sure wouldn't hurt when riding this puppy!! I'm proubly gonna need ALLLLLLLLLLL the stopping power I can get! Remember this dosn't just have to go down a 300ft strip and eventually stop, it's going to have to stop suddenly on new england's trails......

thefox
03-23-2006, 09:42 PM
Iíve ridden my 250R at 14,000' and had to get off to push it up the small hill to get going again because the lack of power at that altitude.

If anyone wanted to do something cool for our 3 and 4 wheelers is come up with an EFI like the open, or even a closed, loop system Holley Projection but for the smaller engines.

Doesn't a dial-a-jet do this?

BigGreenMachine
03-24-2006, 02:53 AM
Rice rocket brakes would be overkill I'm sure. XBasket put a ninja 250 caliper on the rear of his old second gen Tecate.

The 480 and aircooled frame man, forget the 350X and its frame cracking issues. Get the airfooler, a chassis made for a shakey pinger. Brace that frame at every point you can for the extra stress its going to have to endure and bolt on some fresh calipers/masters and you'll be set.

200x Basket
03-24-2006, 11:01 AM
it was a 750 caliper and it worked great.

Bigbore
03-24-2006, 11:24 AM
Doesn't a dial-a-jet do this?

No not really. I had one. It was ok for minor altitude changes but not even close to what an EFI unit would be able to do. Besides the EFI, with an closed loop system, could make sure the motor never ran to lean.

Anyway, just dreaming...

monster 84r
03-25-2006, 12:09 AM
Rice rocket brakes would be overkill I'm sure. XBasket put a ninja 250 caliper on the rear of his old second gen Tecate.

The 480 and aircooled frame man, forget the 350X and its frame cracking issues. Get the airfooler, a chassis made for a shakey pinger. Brace that frame at every point you can for the extra stress its going to have to endure and bolt on some fresh calipers/masters and you'll be set.

thats exactly what ive been thinking of for the past few weeks, it would sure make my r into an animal. id probably put on a heavier flywheel like stated above though, to mellow it out a bit. the 480 would be a big jump, from the stock 27hp to the 51hp the 480's boast. i might tackle this one of these days. i could just see me rolling up at the dunes, and challenging a few 450's, if i could hold onto the 480 long enough to beat them.


Anyone that thinks a 500cc is too much for trails hasn't ridden a 500 on trails. Personally I wouldn't ride anything smaller than a 500, unless youíre with the wife and kids playing. Who wants to manipulate a powerband, keeping their machine from stalling like you have to do on a 250cc. Then again most of the country doesn't have trails like we do in Colorado.

i can see where your coming from bigbore, but im only 170 lbs, and for me, manipulating such a big bike as a 500 on trails would be a pain in the arse. it would take too much effort to whip the bike around on tight winding trails. when in the woods are you going to have the space or need to really utilize all the power the 500 has? seems to me like you'd foul tons of plugs, and go through clutches fast. those big 500's werent meant for scenic trips in the woods. they were made for tearing up the tracks. i garrunte (sp) you that on the tight trails around here, i could keep up with 500's, on a 125.

RideRed250R
03-25-2006, 12:41 AM
ok... see this is the barrier.... some of us are dune riders and some are woods riders... personally my 330R wouldnt handle the woods at all.. y cause the porting and how it is set up.... if i built a 500R it wouldnt do woods at all either... it would be raw power...t hats y when we talk abotu trikes some people sound rong and some sound right... cause we are all talkign about different terrian and power
Adam
but for monster, dont weight downt he fly wheel...t hat gives more torque and for dunes you want revs over torque... you weigh it down... its going to rev slower then it already does... i wouldnt reccomend it...

mcgyver331
03-28-2006, 05:03 AM
I say use the CR frame, lighten it up like crazy, aluminum stock length swingarm, aluminum sub frame, aluminum airbox, aftermarket tank, aluminum/crome cylinder and head, no front brakes, etc.

Just gotta sit on the handle bars to keep it down. jk if you can ride it'll be no prob.

oh yeah use the watercooled one so you can enjoy it for a while.

350xBomb
03-28-2006, 06:55 AM
Does anyone know where to get the stats and output information for these engines. Whats the torque and HP rating for the 250r's and the 500's. Ive riddin a KX500, its not a honda so it wont come close to the CR's :), but it didnt seem to be as intimidating as everyone here is saying. Have we all forgotten the LT500. Granted it was way heavier in the front, its still a 500cc 2 stroke with 2 driving wheels on the ground. Yall seem kinda scared of this creation. Im just talkin out my a** though, Ive never been lucky enought to ride a ATC500r. And as for why....I like Bigbore's reasoning....better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.....and in my limited experience there is no replacement for displacement.

MTS
03-28-2006, 01:09 PM
No not really. I had one. It was ok for minor altitude changes but not even close to what an EFI unit would be able to do. Besides the EFI, with an closed loop system, could make sure the motor never ran to lean.

Anyway, just dreaming...
Theres a new system out, Similar to the dial a jet but 100% better it has a Barometric (Sp?) Pressure guage in the air box and Compensates for altitude Change By opening and Closing The Vents on the carb,,,,I hear it works GREAT and puts the DAJ to shame...i will definatly have one here Cause the riding i do Also Very's greatly in altitude..........As for a cr500 with a stock swinger....Id ride it, Tho's who say a 500 is too much for woods havent riddin one, i LOVE 500's for woods, Puts 250's to shame,,,,,power whenever you need it and Not as much Clutch Work,,,,,,Keeps you From getting in between a rock and a hard spot...so i have found, The 83 5 speed 480 was a Great Open Class/Cross country bike IMO Pull from bottem to top with out a problem.....very fun bike.......Now personally if i was going to bother with a Engin Swap of that calibur i would do the liquid Coold Cr500......From what i have seen and Found out myself, the 480 into the Air-coold Frame is a MUCH tighter fit and requires alot more work, not to mention a Completly Custom pipe, where as the Liquid 500 you Can get away with cutting Up a 85-89 Pipe and making it work......:beer

Mike_Ham_250R
03-28-2006, 10:22 PM
Lou's ATC500R is the best.

RideRed250R
03-28-2006, 11:27 PM
the KX actually has more power... as for stats just look around on google... lots of CR sites, the CR500 is known for as i have read it 55 horses and 40 FTLBS of torque.. the 250R was CLAIMED 40 horses at crank and 22 ftlbs... actual rear wheel dynoes have said 250R -32 horses 21 ftlbs, Cr500 has set out 52rwhp 43 ftlbs.... but remeber no two bikes lay downt he same power ...
Adam

mustangmachanic
07-04-2008, 12:13 PM
hey i can buy an 82 cr480 for $200 been thinking about it myself i like to ride in the mountains and ill tell ya after 80+mi of putting my 82r through hell and back
i know that the 250 is just underpowered for huge rocks and steep grades requiring way too much clutching to climb the hills of the now defunct "PARAGON"
out side of Allentown Pa when you climb hills like that you need the power it was all i could do to keep it running going up those steep hills with bolders on em'
If i had the power id be riding there this weekend