What makes 200x kick starters slip? Several soloutions inside!

[thefox]

Seeing as I have my 200x low end apart, what is it that makes the kicker slip? Do I replace the spring that is on the kicker shaft? Other then buying a repair kit that is no longer available what should I do?

[chris200x]

This probably doesn't answer your question but I think it is some useful info that Howdy poted a while back
http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=45445&highlight=200x+kickstarter

[ATC-Eric]

Might just be your kick clip. Thats the clip that helps put the gears together. Check out a diagram for your kicker, and make sure everything is there, and functional.

[Solid Snake]

For me the actual gears had broken teeth on them. Check out my thread.

http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=56478&highlight=200x+kickstarter

[thefox]

The engine is apart now and everything looks ok but I bought the motor in pieces so i don't know if it was slipping before or not. I just figure that since I have it apart now I might as well do some preventative parts replacement.

[Howdy]

The ratchet is the thing that mainly causes kick starter slippage. What happened is Honda put too weak of a spring ( the one that pushes the ratchet & gear together ). The allows the ratchet the wear off the tips of the teeth on the ratchet and gear. Once wore they are junk and will allow slippage.
I know of one person ( it wasn't me ) who back cut the teeth on the gear and ratchet. I can tell you that it worked good, but it's not something the average person could do. I am going to do a set or 2 of these up for my own useage. But I haven't got my tooling set up yet. I can't do that until I get my garage finished. My home garage is going to be my machine shop. ;)

Also on the 1984 motors they actually had a weak starter gear that broke enough that Honda did a service recall on. It's the idler that mates up to the ratchet gear. The 1984 repair kits contained: 1 ratchet, 1 ratchet gear, 1 idler gear, and 1 spring ( it's stronger ). I should still have 1 1984 kit in stock. If memory serves me correct the 1984 kits cost me around $90-$100. I sold 2 1984 kits on Ebay for $150 or so each ( I was very Happy ).
theFox: I will sell you my last 1984 Kit for $95 shipped. Other wise it will hit ebay some time in the future. ;)
Howdy

[thefox]

I will pass on the kicker kit Howdy but thanks for offering it, right now the trike fund is kind of low. I was hoping that there was a replacment spring, I think my gears look good so I guess the spring is ok but it would suck to put it all together just to have it slip.

[Howdy]

I will pass on the kicker kit Howdy but thanks for offering it, right now the trike fund is kind of low. I was hoping that there was a replacment spring, I think my gears look good so I guess the spring is ok but it would suck to put it all together just to have it slip.

I totally understand!! Have you checked to see if your kickstarter assembly was serviced by a Honda dealer? If not, then look down by the serial number. If you find a "X" stamped in the area then most likely they have serviced it already. If there isn't a "X" then it probably hasn't been upgraded. If you need / want just a updated spring, I have some of those as well. I will have to look up my cost on those. I think they are under $4-5.
Howdy

[thefox]

I would check the case but I don't have it. I bought a shifter shaft and this kicker assembly came with it, the kicker assembly that came with my case is in the case 350 miles away and I didn't think of checking its condition before I left home. So I will buy that spring just in case. I will PM you.

Thanks for the help!

[Bryan Raffa]

so I can get away with ordering the stiffer spring? how do I tell the diffrance between the two....

[thefox]

so I can get away with ordering the stiffer spring? how do I tell the diffrance between the two....

The stiffer spring is harder to compress... :lol:

The two NOS stiffer springs I have seen had a red line painted on them.

[Bryan Raffa]

so it looks like Im SOL..look the same to me..

[Dirtcrasher]

so it looks like Im SOL..look the same to me..


Thats the kicker return spring (torsion spring) isn't there another spring that works on the splines and gets the ratchet gears meshing??

See the bitty spring behind the smaller ratchet gear, I believe that is the problem spring. I imagine guys try shimming it??

[thefox]

The stiffer spring replaces the smaller one on the left end of the first picture. I found some part #'s (can someone verify these?)......

200x starter kits
1983, 06280-965-000

1984, 06281-965-000

1985, 06282-965-680

Spring only, 28253-965-010

[Bryan Raffa]

would shiming it work?

[tri-Z ripper]

I am curious of an answer for this as well?
ps raffa cleaning the pilot jet didnt help!

[Bryan Raffa]

has anyone tryed a spring out of a xr 200r? did they have a problem too?

[Bryan Raffa]

here is a 96 and a 99 xr 200 shaft does that spring look like it would work to you? last is a 200x..it does to me..

[Howdy]

has anyone tryed a spring out of a xr 200r? did they have a problem too?

I'm 90% sure the xr200r gear set up will work. jenndnn3 did a tranny swap before and if I remember correctly it gave her a 6 speed tranny. http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=35947&highlight=200x
Howdy

[Bryan Raffa]

thank you howdy.. now were getting somewhere..:D I may just have a 6 speed...:idea:

[300rman]

my R does it sometimes. only when its COLD (like winter cold) in warmer months or after the motor warms up, it doesnt do it anymore.

[atctim]

my R does it sometimes. only when its COLD (like winter cold) in warmer months or after the motor warms up, it doesnt do it anymore.

Hmmmmmm - this is very strange. I just (like an hour ago) pulled Shelly's 200X out to upgrade the carb from stock to XR200 - and when I went to kick it over - the kicker started slipping. It never ever slipped before - EVER!!!. Keep in mind it is like 10 degrees out. Is there something in there with tolerances so tight that cold weather makes something shrink just enough to make the gears (ratchet) slip??

I am cringing at a whole bottom end dis-assembly to remedy this problem.:(

Maybe I'll let it warm up and see what happens.

[Dirtcrasher]

Hmmmmmm - this is very strange. I just (like an hour ago) pulled Shelly's 200X out to upgrade the carb from stock to XR200 - and when I went to kick it over - the kicker started slipping. It never ever slipped before - EVER!!!. Keep in mind it is like 10 degrees out. Is there something in there with tolerances so tight that cold weather makes something shrink just enough to make the gears (ratchet) slip??

I am cringing at a whole bottom end dis-assembly to remedy this problem.:(

Maybe I'll let it warm up and see what happens.

The colder it is, the thicker the oil and the harder it is for that gear to slide on the shaft and lock in.

I honestly just can't believe how bad a design that is. I mean, they say that manufacturers "want" things to wear out so they can make money repairing it, but that doesn't seem true with Honda. They seemed to constantly strive for better designs which is nice for us :D

The thing you have to is each time that thing slips, it rounds those teeth just a little bit more. I'd pop start the dam thing if it's that cold, lol.....

[atctim]

UPDATE: Dircrasher - you hit the nail on the head - when it warmed up in the garage - I could not get it to slip again. Huh - strange how those things work. Shelly never rides this in the winter anyway - so this should not be an issue as it never slips unless it is near zero I guess.

[jenndnn3]

Raffa, one thing, You know as I am thinking there is no true differences in the inner springs,,, UNLESS Honda went to that spring after they discovered the "issue". One of the MOST obvious things I did not point out for the 200x, They (I believe) are the only ones who DID NOT have decompression. So why change a spring? Especially if it only made for so many years...

Shimmy DID not work... Locked it all down if I recall correctly
It would have to be a real thin thing...

[Howdy]

Raffa, one thing, You know as I am thinking there is no true differences in the inner springs,,, UNLESS Honda went to that spring after they discovered the "issue". One of the MOST obvious things I did not point out for the 200x, They (I believe) are the only ones who DID NOT have decompression. So why change a spring? Especially if it only made for so many years...

Shimmy DID not work... Locked it all down if I recall correctly
It would have to be a real thin thing...

There is a difference in the springs, it's not that much difference, but there is a difference none the less. The updated spring is just a little heavier and it pushes the gears together slightly more, and this causes the gears to grip better.
Howdy

[greenhuman]

Undercut them babies. Its not that hard to do. You will NEVER have a slipping problem again.

[Bryan Raffa]

Undercut them babies. Its not that hard to do. You will NEVER have a slipping problem again.

well hot dam there's is a Great idea Right There!!! did you cut both sides?

[300rman]

unfortunately, i do not have the time or desire to attempt such a task. if i just gently kick it over, it will not slip usually.

[greenhuman]

I cut both sets of teeth if thats what you mean. A thin metal cutting disc in a small angle grinder held in a vise. It takes about 10 minutes. Turn on the grinder and gently lower the the teeth down on the disc till the flat side of the teeth are angled back a poof-teenth. Thats it, problem fixed forever.

[Bryan Raffa]

I cut both sets of teeth if thats what you mean. A thin metal cutting disc in a small angle grinder held in a vise. It takes about 10 minutes. Turn on the grinder and gently lower the the teeth down on the disc till the flat side of the teeth are angled back a poof-teenth. Thats it, problem fixed forever.

thats is Great!! thanks for the input..I will try that!!;)

[rugabugadouglas]

so will any year xr 200 springs work on a 84 200x then? or is it trail and error? also will grinding the teeth help?

[Havoxx]

UPDATE: Dircrasher - you hit the nail on the head - when it warmed up in the garage - I could not get it to slip again. Huh - strange how those things work. Shelly never rides this in the winter anyway - so this should not be an issue as it never slips unless it is near zero I guess.

Well, remember metal expands and contracts depending on the temperature, so the cold spring will be shorter almost always :D, causing the little thing to probably not hit.(or however the kick starter works :P.

[Bryan Raffa]

so will any year xr 200 springs work on a 84 200x then? or is it trail and error? also will grinding the teeth help?

Havent tryed the Xr spring yet..Ill let ya know when I get that far..Im gonna do the spring and back cut the gears..:)

[rugabugadouglas]

bump......

[Bryan Raffa]

well took greenhumans advise.. I cut two sets of kicker gears today..:idea:

[tri-Z ripper]

RAFFA how did you cut them with a grinder or some kinda nice bench set up?

[Dirtcrasher]

Wow... You really back cut them. But, they look good Raffa.

I was gonna post awhile back that the best way to do this would be in a mill with a HSS rotary blade and a rotary table. At least then you guys could get the same exact angle and depth on every tooth.

My only fear would be a broken toot mincing around in the tranny but yours look to have plenty of meat left on them and hopefully will be just fine.

The problem is - and this is not for you you Brian - your no meatball... it's that if guys were to start to cut them in a vice with a cutoff wheel and a right angle grinder, that they can and will remove more or less material at more or less of an angle on each tooth. At that point, when it's getting kicked over, there could be only 5 or so teeth that are actually driving and then they could break off and destroy the tranny.

Funny thing is, even if you were to buy a brand new set of gears, they appear to be cast?? I once bought a brand new set for a 250R and I truly thought that they would be machined and perfect in every sense, yet they were cast and didn't even appear to have a "point" to the top of each tooth. But, they did the trick. You 85 and under guys have few options...

[Billy Golightly]

This single issue has kept me from dickin with 200x's for a very long time. This looks to be a very good and relatively simple fix. I might be getting back into the 200x's after all :)

[Bryan Raffa]

yes your right dirt on the deepness,, like fish hooks ..the file I needed too finish each tooth was in my tool box at home ,I still need to go through and hand file each face on each tooth so each one has a nice face on each one.. you almost have too have your face 12" from the blade to make shure it follow's the exact slope of the tooth..a full face shield is needed..

hey billy:Bounce you got something for a X I would like:drool: ....you got 2 of them hideing,,,:lol:

[Bryan Raffa]

If you run the air cut off wheel the right way , It will leave a small flat face 90 degree , vertical.
I took a flat file and cleaned up the face on each tooth, to make them all the same ..as you can see I maked with a blue sharpy.. these really bite each other and by twisting them together like they normaly would,,wile pulling them apart..The harder you twist it the better it grips. I didnt want to take any more metal off than I had too..for strength ..other than that..thats pretty mutch it.

I suggest getting a new good file ..right off the batt..as mine took a beating from the hardend steel

DAD's sells a shim kit for the spring .witch put in the right place will make the spring have more pressure..pm him for the washer:cool:

[Billy Golightly]

Everyone has to admit, this is an ingenious group of mofos here on the forum. How many other people or places would there be guys using hand files and air tools to cut their own transmission gears?! :lol: I can't think of anywhere else.

[The Goat]

billy, i can't think of a single person who does that anymore...hell the only person I've ever heard of doing hand filing was burt Monroe...

You know Bryan, I had made the comment that I didn't think anyone would take the time to machine a set of gears precise enough to fix this problem. Most would just throw it together, and hope all the teeth are right. Leading to all force being transferred to one tooth, that tooth breaking, and then engine damage as a result. But I must say, that gear looks perfect.

Let us know how she works...especially in the cold. lo.

[Bryan Raffa]

billy, i can't think of a single person who does that anymore...hell the only person I've ever heard of doing hand filing was burt Monroe...

and Me...:lol:

the cut off wheel was like it was made to do this job. It fits in between the teeth perfict..steady hands and a good eye are needed.I used the bigger out side gear as a gage as on how deep too go. the file straitens every thing out. and I think over time the teeth will ware together even better..I know what your saying goat on the teeth..thats why its crucial to follow the slope of the backside of the leading tooth..if that angle gets messed up there will be a gap in between the tooth..it will cut too mutch off the top of the tooth and make it shorter.the first set is the set greenhuman did and the second are mine..I'm thinking the fish hook like barb at the top of each one will be better.Also I think cutting down too the flat of the big gear makes the teeth bigger and more surface area too grab:beer

[rugabugadouglas]

hmm makes me want to tear mine down and do that to mine what sucks is the guy i bought it from just rebuilt the motor with a 12:1 and didnt fix this problem some people

[Bryan Raffa]

completed kicker Assm. back cut teeth and DaD's shim washers..lucky I had two sets of kicker assm. and put the other one together also with out the shims..not as snappy as this one!:TrikesOwn

[rugabugadouglas]

so i tore mine apart today to replace it are both these in need of some work or do they look ok? the one with silver paint on it is the one i took out i think is the on the right

[rugabugadouglas]

i guess i should have added the one on the right was slipping really bad i am thinking about going to my honda dealer and having them look at it

[Danold]

Neither of them look good. The one with the silver paint could be filed down and used again.

When I fixed mine, I used an extra assembly I had and cut the spring of the old one and added it to the one on the good assembly. Fixed it without having to grind anything.

[mtsnieg]

Great info! I just got done cutting a spare set of kicker gears. Used a Dremel in the vice with a cut off wheel. Took about a half hour to get the result i was looking for. I haven't had any luck finding shims for thespring so I Stretch Arnstronged it a bit. Gonna tear down my x engine soon while waiting for the lake to freeze. Mainly now to install yhese new gears:).

[mike25]

i have been reading thru this, as my 83 200x has the same issue, and was wondering what exactly was done in the recall, did they only replace the spring, or did they machine the gears as well?

[oldtrx]

my kick starter is slipping also, i guess slipping? it turns the motor over but will not start it. you have to push start it. these dont have a one way bearng do they? ive never been into one of these before, actually any clutch on a hand clutch style motor only my trx300fw........ any pointers before i tear it down?

[shortline10]

Get a manual first . Motor has to be torn down and the center cases split to get to the slipping ratchet gears . You will need to back cut the ratchet set and either stretch the factory spring out or find a oem upgraded replacement .



my kick starter is slipping also, i guess slipping? it turns the motor over but will not start it. you have to push start it. these dont have a one way bearng do they? ive never been into one of these before, actually any clutch on a hand clutch style motor only my trx300fw........ any pointers before i tear it down?

[oldtrx]

i do believe i will just put my wiseco top end on my other bottom end then lol.... never split the cases on anything before.

[lien1125]

Quick question...When reinstalling kicker assembly is there going to be alot of tension on spring to get it to the stopper bolt...We aligned the ratchet on the shaft so the two dots line up but to get it rotated to the stopper bolt its alot of tension. Making sure this is right or what we need to do...
Any help would be awesome.

Thanks,
Ryan

[shortline10]

Dont think its alot of pressure but it has to be enough to hold the kicker in place .



Quick question...When reinstalling kicker assembly is there going to be alot of tension on spring to get it to the stopper bolt...We aligned the ratchet on the shaft so the two dots line up but to get it rotated to the stopper bolt its alot of tension. Making sure this is right or what we need to do...
Any help would be awesome.

Thanks,
Ryan

[4x4van]

Interesting thread. FWIW, the first '85 250Rs had a slipping kickstarter problem as well. I purchased mine in August 1984, one of the first ones in SoCal. Within months, the kickstarter started slipping occasionally, not just on mine, but on several others our group had purchased. Shortly thereafter, Honda issued a recall on them all, and made repairs, although I don't know what was actually done during the recall. In any case, the recall solved the issue...for many years...but the problem eventually returned. 28 years later, mine occasionally slips, as does my wife's, and my brother's. It's a rare occurance, but it does happen. Again, I really don't know what the recall actually did, so now I wonder how similar the gear setup is between the 250R and the 200X, and what the recall replaced; gear(s), spring(s)...? Guess I should look at parts blowup.

[oldskool83]

ive noticed with higher compression piston they will slip. both of my motors look about mint but im ripping appart to have back cut anyway.

[shortline10]

Its all about the ratchet spring !!! If it doesnt have enough pressure to keep the teeth meshed together it fails .




ive noticed with higher compression piston they will slip. both of my motors look about mint but im ripping appart to have back cut anyway.

[MrConcdid]

Wow this is an old thread, I have a new to me 84 200x and the kicker slips, I plan to follow these post,
Q. do I have to split the case to get to this gear set and spring or can I get to it but just taking off the right side case?

Thanks
MrC.

[hatc200x1]

Wow this is an old thread, I have a new to me 84 200x and the kicker slips, I plan to follow these post,
Q. do I have to split the case to get to this gear set and spring or can I get to it but just taking off the right side case?

Thanks
MrC.

Initially, a weak ratchet spring causes the kicker gears to slip past each other, wearing them down, then the gears get to the point where even with a stiffer spring, they still slip past each other, especially in high compression engines. Some guys file the kicker gears so they grab better, and install a stiffer ratchet spring. Yes you have to split the cases, one major downfall of the 200X.

[mikeheck]

Hey, my 85 200x has this same issue with the kick start slipping over. I am thinking about tearing it down to fix it. Is there anywhere to purchase the stronger spring for this?

[1MOREADDICTION]

Back cut the gears and buy new spring. I had major slippage on a new build and had bottem and apart many times,chasing this issue. I followed a thread from here years ago with some pics. It was pretty easy todo. What worked best for me was a dremel and cut off disc. I was able to back "cut" more like grindaway material very easily so when teeth went together they interlocked. Never slipped one time again

[Dirtcrasher]

I have most of what I need to finish a jig for this. Then I can cut them on my mill using a rotary table to the exact same degree, angle and depth.

I still have so many ATC ideas and projects to complete, I just don't have the space to do so and keep things sorted.

But, we finally listed Dads house this week and once it sells the big shop will be built and I hope to get to these things I've wanted to do for 20 years.

This will be a huge job because most will be done all by myself, hopefully I can get guys to help with the concrete pad because it's gonna be big. I want a car lift in there as well and a door big enough to pull my backhoe inside. Lets hope this "war" doesn't F things up for me. Unfortunately although we think we can and we wait for the right time, we can never save money faster than the price of goods especially with inflation.

Just having the shelf space to keep things sorted and stored while you work on them makes a huge difference. I often find 1 gallon ziplock bags with stuff I worked on many years ago but I couldn't get back to it, I forgot it even existed...

[Kcabbie]

Dirtcrasher, did you get setup to cut the gears?