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View Full Version : Need Input from MX Expert Classes, 4 Strokes Expert, Hybrids



TimSr
02-11-2007, 03:16 PM
If you are running in an Expert Class, or running a Hybrid or custom build in the MX races, I need to hear from you ASAP. It was brought to my attention that we may have several hybrids this year entering MX. A hybrid is usually a trike chassis with a dirt bike motor, or more modern ATV motor that significantly increases displacement, or possibly even something totally fabricated from scratch.

Under the current guidelines, this obviously presents a problem that we did not have in the past, with only Virgil having one of them. For those wishing to also run a big 2 stroke, it presents a problem as they would be in the same class.


Hi Performance – Expert - For 250cc two stroke riders with MX experience and certain custom built 4 strokes that would be competitive with them.

4 Stroke Open – Expert - Basically 350X riders who do not belong in a novice class with their skill level and have inadequate suspension for Hi-Performance class.

I need accurrate data from this poll so I can address this. If you are bringing a hybrid for MOTOCROSS, or are running in 4 Stroke Expert, or Hi Performance Expert, I need you to particiapte in this poll.

Bryan Raffa
02-11-2007, 03:33 PM
hybrid 2 stroke yes... hybrid 4 stroke diffrent class..looks like ya might need a high perf.4stroke class,,just my 2 cents

3leggeddog
02-11-2007, 03:59 PM
i want to see some more thought put into the amount of laps,as well as the sixe of the track for our so called"Expert" class.if we are going as far as calling it an expert class,i like advanced alot better,i think we should look into extending the track,and amount of laps.this could only apply to the advanced classes.i know the track at haspin is cool,but we only use 3/4 of it.for the advanced classes i think we should run the whole track,and run 5-6 laps.in a short moto you don't have time to make up for mistake.i have learned this from the faircross series.one little slip,and your done,unless you are way faster then everyone else.if we are puttin a title like expert,or advanced on these classes,then they should be represented by the best,of the best riders,and show every aspect of the sport.not just skill,but endurance.that way someone with a way faster bike,like a big bore hybrid,can't get out in front on the holeshot,and block for 3 laps and win.remember this is why we run it on the small track,so it's about skill,not motor.just my thoughts.i have no problem runnin against the hybrids in a open class,but think the 2 stroke advanced should be just that,2 stroke-250cc bikes.run the 350x in one class,and designate a 4 stroke advanced,open to all 350x's,aswell as hybrids.then a "open" class for run what ya brung battle royal.just my thoughts.

Bryan Raffa
02-11-2007, 04:03 PM
Totaly agreeable brandon!

TimSr
02-11-2007, 04:16 PM
hybrid 2 stroke yes... hybrid 4 stroke diffrent class..looks like ya might need a high perf.4stroke class,,just my 2 cents

I dont understand what this means. Are you running a hybrid?

TimSr
02-11-2007, 04:23 PM
i want to see some more thought put into the amount of laps,as well as the sixe of the track for our so called"Expert" class.if we are going as far as calling it an expert class,i like advanced alot better,i think we should look into extending the track,and amount of laps.this could only apply to the advanced classes.i know the track at haspin is cool,but we only use 3/4 of it.for the advanced classes i think we should run the whole track,and run 5-6 laps.in a short moto you don't have time to make up for mistake.i have learned this from the faircross series.one little slip,and your done,unless you are way faster then everyone else.if we are puttin a title like expert,or advanced on these classes,then they should be represented by the best,of the best riders,and show every aspect of the sport.not just skill,but endurance.that way someone with a way faster bike,like a big bore hybrid,can't get out in front on the holeshot,and block for 3 laps and win.remember this is why we run it on the small track,so it's about skill,not motor.just my thoughts.i have no problem runnin against the hybrids in a open class,but think the 2 stroke advanced should be just that,2 stroke-250cc bikes.run the 350x in one class,and designate a 4 stroke advanced,open to all 350x's,aswell as hybrids.then a "open" class for run what ya brung battle royal.just my thoughts.

Expert classes will be running more laps this year. Track extension will be used if its practical. If youll remember, last year it was under water, but we've used it whenever possible in the past and will continue. Thats not what this thread is about, though. I cant make any decisions on restructuring classes until I know what is coming.

SWIGIN
02-11-2007, 04:52 PM
i know at the national races a hybrid has to run the open class since its not a production bike

Bryan Raffa
02-11-2007, 04:56 PM
I dont understand what this means. Are you running a hybrid?


IF it's a hybrid 2 stroke then yes put it in the expert class

IF its a hybrid 4 stroke then it should be in a diffrent class

thats what i ment

3leggeddog
02-11-2007, 05:03 PM
oops,sorry.i thought this was a thread n suggestions,i see know you just want to know what we are ridin,and ideas on classes,sorry!!

TimSr
02-11-2007, 06:10 PM
oops,sorry.i thought this was a thread n suggestions,i see know you just want to know what we are ridin,and ideas on classes,sorry!!

No problem Brandon. Im always willing to entertain suggestions and comments, but Im looking at addressing a specific potential problem in this thread.

TimSr
02-11-2007, 06:22 PM
IF it's a hybrid 2 stroke then yes put it in the expert class

IF its a hybrid 4 stroke then it should be in a diffrent class

thats what i ment

Are you running a hybrid, either 2 stroke or 4 stroke? I need this poll to accurately reflect what you have, not how you think they should be classified. Its a data poll, not an opinion poll, so I just want to make sure your poll entry is correct.

Derrick Adams
02-11-2007, 06:52 PM
If we are puttin a title like expert,or advanced on these classes,then they should be represented by the best,of the best riders,and show every aspect of the sport.not just skill,but endurance.that way someone with a way faster bike,like a big bore hybrid,can't get out in front on the holeshot,and block for 3 laps and win.remember this is why we run it on the small track,so it's about skill,not motor.

Am I reading this right? Are you suggesting that anyone that is in the expert class on a hybrid 4 stroke does not have the skills to take the holeshot and ride in front? This is called Expert class for a reason. No-one that would be running a Hybrid would even be in the class if they didn't have SKILL.

Furthermore, if you can't pass because your bike is not as fast as the other guy then wouldn't you be the one blocking if you got the holeshot? And also, isn't that the point of racing, to win?

To answer the question, I think that any 4 stroke should stay in the 4 stroke advanced class, not the 2 stroke advanced class. Not for any other reason than the size of the expert 2 stroke class will be fairly large this year anyhow and if all the hybrids run in that class there will be no-one in 4 stroke advanced.

Bryan Raffa
02-11-2007, 07:22 PM
well no im not runnin a hybrid... I saw this and thought you wanted our thought's on the subject..

(I need accurrate data from this poll so I can address this. If you are bringing a hybrid for MOTOCROSS, or are running in 4 Stroke Expert, or Hi Performance Expert, I need you to particiapte in this poll.)

(If you are running in an Expert Class, or running a Hybrid or custom build in the MX races,)

yes Im running in the High performance Expert..with a tri z 250.

Do you want just input from the people who are runnin hybrids?????

3leggeddog
02-11-2007, 08:40 PM
Am I reading this right? Are you suggesting that anyone that is in the expert class on a hybrid 4 stroke does not have the skills to take the holeshot and ride in front? This is called Expert class for a reason. No-one that would be running a Hybrid would even be in the class if they didn't have SKILL.

Furthermore, if you can't pass because your bike is not as fast as the other guy then wouldn't you be the one blocking if you got the holeshot? And also, isn't that the point of racing, to win?

To answer the question, I think that any 4 stroke should stay in the 4 stroke advanced class, not the 2 stroke advanced class. Not for any other reason than the size of the expert 2 stroke class will be fairly large this year anyhow and if all the hybrids run in that class there will be no-one in 4 stroke advanced.


i am not doubtin the skill of anyone here,but big motors equal great holeshots.with that in mind i see a big disadvantage to the lil 2 strokes.in a short moto someone with a faster bike,and less talent could hold on just long enough to win,when the rider behind them posses more skill.thats why i want to see more laps.to give the underpowered bikes a better chance to play ketch up.we both know that if we line up the trikes,your guys 450's will walk away from my r.thats not your fault for building a competitive bike,but leaves me,and the rest of us 2 stroke guys at a huge disadvantage.your right,if i can't pass you because my bikes not fast enough,thats my problem.i don't want this to turn into the drag race b-i-t-c-h-n thread either.all i am sayin is there should be a "OPEN" class for these big bores,and still a 2 stroke advanced class.



i never shoulda said anything,i wasn't trin to offend.i'll run whatever class you guys tell me to.

TimSr
02-11-2007, 09:16 PM
well no im not runnin a hybrid... I saw this and thought you wanted our thought's on the subject..

yes Im running in the High performance Expert..with a tri z 250.

Do you want just input from the people who are runnin hybrids?????

From your first post I got the impression you had a hybrid, but voted 2 stroke in the poll because you felt a hybrid 2 stroke didnt count as a hybrid. I understand now, and just wanted clarification.

Any comments from anyone are fine, but to be honest, Im not paying much attention to recommendations right now, because I dont logically see how anyone can have an opinion on classing anything without knowing what we have coming. That is the reason for this poll. My decision will be based on:

How many 4 Stroke Expert Class riders we have on 350x's as class is currently defined, how many riders on Hybrids, and how many riders wanting to run both 2 Stroke Expert with one trike and run another class on a Hybrid. Im looking at overall class sizes, and whether additional splits are necessary.

Im looking at competitiveness in matchup. (Putting Virgil's 426 with the 2 strokes as opposed to 350x's in prior racing was a no brainer.)

Im also looking at preserving the integrity of true vintage class racing, while at the same time giving the innovative and inventive a chance to showcase their creations.

My final decision will be a logical and practical one based on the actual numbers and what is most competitive.

Billy Golightly
02-11-2007, 09:21 PM
I voted 2 stroke (non hybrid) in the expert class, but a 2 stroke hybrid in place is not out of the cards for me yet. I would suggest, if there is enough participants, to have perhaps a "New School" class or something for any type of conversions, and machines using new technology. 2strokes, and 4 strokes together.

TimSr
02-24-2007, 11:38 PM
I voted 2 stroke (non hybrid) in the expert class, but a 2 stroke hybrid in place is not out of the cards for me yet. I would suggest, if there is enough participants, to have perhaps a "New School" class or something for any type of conversions, and machines using new technology. 2strokes, and 4 strokes together.

Billy, You pretty well hit the button on what was in the back of mind when I posted this poll.

MX is about the rider, and I do not want to see it get to the point that a person has to spend lots of money and build a custom trike to be competitive in the Expert Class. Trikefest MX was created as a celebration of vintage trike racing, a flashback to the 80's. We also need to showcase and encourage new creations from idea guys. Their inginuity should be celebrated!

4 stroke Expert Class was created last year to accomodate expert riders, riding in two classes. It looks as though there is no need for it this year, and 350X's are hardly a good match for big bore hybrids. For this reason reason I will be eliminiating the 4 Stroke Expert Class for 2007. Should we get an Expert Class rider on a 350X, they will run in the Vintage Expert Class (fka Hi Performance Expert Class) where they would be a much better match against vintage 2 strokes than against hybrids.

Hi Performance Expert Class will become Vintage Expert Class. Trikes do not have to be stock, but extensive modifications that give significant advantages and do not capture the spirit of the trike racing era will move to the Monster Trike class. Putting an 85 YZ 250 motor in a TriZ would still be an eligible vintage trike. Putting a 2006 YZ250 motor in a TriZ would be a hybrid and a Monster Trike.

Monster Trike Class will include hybrids, big bores and strokers that significantly increase displacement, and custom builds that give significant advantage over vintage trikes. Since we are not likely to have a full gate, but do have enough for a class, I will invite the top placers in the Vintage Expert Class to run in this class to fill the gate. Vintage riders will be for exhibition only, and only Monster trikes are eligible for trophies in this class.

I reserve the right to make judgement calls in the interest of competitiveness and to preserve the spirit of the event. We are racing for fun, and really, all races are for exhibition. I want to see the best racers win, and not on technicalities or hardware purchases!

Derrick Adams
02-25-2007, 09:25 AM
This actually works in my favor. I can run my 250R in the Vintage class and my Hybrid in the Moster class. Brandon can run his 500 in the Monster class now too!

I noticed that neither Mark or Tim responded to this post. Both of which ran with me in expert 4 stroke last year. Mark even ran both classes. I'm curious as to what their thoughts are, since I know Tim has the 250R and 350X now and Mark wants to defend his title.

atctim
02-28-2007, 04:19 PM
I have since retired both of my racing trikes I ran last year (the Big Red racer is tired and does not deserve that punishment - and I sold the 350X for another one that will not be raced - it is my only garage queen). I will race my Air cooled 250R and probably a non-suspended class this year - or maybe a 200X in the mid size suspended class. I guess I'll fall into the Vintage Class as well on my 250R.

I can say that classes really don't matter to me because it is all for fun, BUT the competitor in me wants it to be fair so I have a chance at the pseudo podium - and frankly in the past years - running a bone stock 350X against hybrids was not the fairest of events. But I see that TimSr is evolving the classes very nicely.

One other item that has been eating at me is possibly longer than 3 lap races. In the past 2 years, I have ran 2 separate classes - and that about killed me. With longer races - and getting older and fatter - it makes me wonder if I will physically be able to do this. I will suck it up I am sure - and what better incentive for a little pre-TF training!

See you guys on the track:naughty:

Louis Mielke
03-03-2007, 12:21 AM
I like the idea of the monster class also. I would hope my 500 will be up to snuff for something like that this year. So little time! Argh.

Derrick Adams
03-03-2007, 08:53 AM
I like the idea of the monster class also. I would hope my 500 will be up to snuff for something like that this year. So little time! Argh.


SWEET!!!! I think Brandon will probably run his 500 in that class as well, so it should be interesting to watch!

Louis Mielke
03-03-2007, 09:00 AM
All depends if I get my tripples built. My KTM inverts are sitting in my living room and every day I look at them and think gee I don't want to put the OLD front end back on for TF. Its already except the front end and I'm even flying new colors this year. Hope to turn some heads. Hehe

crazyflights
06-16-2007, 01:00 AM
After reading this forum, it left me glad u all have put some thought into this I think the monster class is a good idea other than, if there is enough particiapants including the front runners of vintage class, may just make it a little crowded, but thats only if there is quite a few of us. I will be bringing a Hybrid 4stroke, not sure how well it will do cause no tracks are groomed good enough around here to really kick it sideways, also in vintage class any R or Z with inverted forks should be in monster class, will you all run 2 Heats and average the 2 together, also most races would leave at 4-5 laps, u may add another pro class, for whatever you want to enter, that runs like7-10 laps i dunno, I have never seen the track. Just wanted to add to the thread since im coming.