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filipinoredneck
05-03-2007, 04:06 PM
I just came from an amsoil distributor down the road. He had 2 types of 2 stroke oil. One of them was i believe HP which mixes at 50:1. The one he recomends highly and uses exclusively on his snowmibiles is the Saber 100:1 mix. He stands by the 100:1 and run the engines a little leaner. He mentioned, running too much oil is worse on an engine rather that running a little leaner. Have you used this oil before, or have heard of anyone using this oil before. I would like to hear your views on this.:beer

ColeTrickle
05-03-2007, 04:23 PM
I use the amsoil high performance 2-cycle injector oil mixed at about 50:1. At first I was scared to run it that lean in my Tri-Z but after a few trips I like it. It mixes with the gas quickly and has a good color to it. It also burns good. I have had the top end apart since I started using it and it looked good. (not a bunch of oil on everything and no lean scars)

BigGreenMachine
05-03-2007, 04:51 PM
I run Amsoil Interceptor at 50:1 and have had no problems. Going to tear into my motor tomorrow and I'll snap a pic of the piston to show how clean it burns. I've ran HP Injector 50:1 for an entire summer without incident as well.

If I could get my hands on it locally I'd run Klotz Supertechniplate or preferably Benol Castor oil. Really want to try those out.

TimSr
05-03-2007, 05:18 PM
If you to to any site that discusses local MX racing youll find that probably more than half of them not only run Amsoil, but are Amsoil dealers. Its top quality oil. Personally I feel the Blue Marble is superior, but I am biased.

TtownJoeShow
05-03-2007, 05:37 PM
i use Amsoil interceptor excellent exhaust valve performance blah blah blah @ 40;1 sometimes use PJ1 it decent too

Billy Golightly
05-03-2007, 06:04 PM
I've got to interject here...a leaner oil mixture IS NOT better for the engine! Its better for your wallet cause you don't have to use as much. The late Gordon Jennings, a renown 2 stroke guru did a dyno test and found that engines made MORE HP up to 8:1 ratio before it got near impossible to keep running at low RPM. Heres why:

More lubrication, less friction.
Thicker mixture, better ring seal.
Higher BTU burn then gasoline.

More interesting information located here: http://www.planetsand.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/538387/page/0/fpart/1


If you read through that thread, you will also discover that although some synthetic oils like Amsoil, Klotz, etc have a better lubricity in tests, that the refined castor oils (Blue Marble, 927, blendzall, etc) leave a residue after they have been burnt that further lubricates things (think of something similar to graphite) that the synthetic oils do not have.

hotrod 110
05-03-2007, 06:08 PM
I used to run saber at 70:1 in my GasGas Wild300 . It ran like a scalled cat!!

BigGreenMachine
05-03-2007, 07:53 PM
Billy your talking about those ratios with castors/mineral oils, not synthetic just so ppl don't get confused. I would/will run Benol Castor if I could get it easily I agree but synthetic does protect your motor. I think the average rider can get away with a good quality synthetic since they aren't really tuning motors for max hp.

crackshot
05-03-2007, 07:53 PM
I run Amsoil Dominator 40:1 in my R.
Supposed to be for high RPM engines, higher cling strength and better ring seal.
Smokes a bit during start up and after it's "cleaned out" and warmed up, the smoke is nearly zero.
I have removed exhaust pipe doing some other maintenance and looked in exhaust flange area and everything was still shiny and no carbon build up.

Dirtcrasher
05-03-2007, 08:17 PM
Amsoil, blue marbel etc etc etc - all good oils I'm sure. I don't own 2 strokes anymore but for years I ran either Motul, Bel-ray or Golden Spectro in my ATC250R, KDX200, CR250 and numerous other 2 strokes I owned in the past. I beat them all, ran them hard and when I was younger I rode every day that I could.

I never seized a 2 stroke but I did wear a couple of them out. I never had a carbon build up problem or excessive smoke unless I went to the gas station and bought whatever 2 stroke oil no name brand that they had. I pretty much always mixed the bottle to 5 gallons of super unleaded gas or followed the manufacturers mixing guide.

While were on the oil subject I will simply add that I have always run plain Valvoline or similar oil in my fourstrokes too. I never lost a clutch or wore out a motor unless it had alot of hours on it.

Until I find something that really impresses me, I'll just stick to the same stuff I've done for the 25 years I have been riding. I do maintain my machines very well and I'm meticulous when I tear something apart and I do my best to make sure I get it right.

To me, oil is oil........

filipinoredneck
05-03-2007, 08:30 PM
I used to run saber at 70:1 in my GasGas Wild300 . It ran like a scalled cat!!


On the bottle, It says you can run down to 50:1 mixture with the saber. Did you have any bad results mechanically running at 70:1.

I used to fly and compete with radio control aerobatics about 10 years ago. At one point, I was mixing my own methanol with castor oil. I wasn't too crazy about the varnish it left behind inside and outside of the engines. I also tried Klotz for a while, I preffered that better until it got to be too much storing a 55 gallon drum of methanol in my garage as well as a few gallons of nitro.:crazy: I really didn't like the idea of that, but thats how much fuel I would go through in a summer. That was a lot of practice considering I only use 12oz. of fuel each flight. Do the math.

I'll try a bottle of saber and then a bottle of HP. I don't mind spending money on quality oil as long as my engines keep together.
A few dollars every week is better than a few hundred every month.

Thanks guys:beer

3Razors
05-03-2007, 08:33 PM
I've got to interject here...a leaner oil mixture IS NOT better for the engine! Its better for your wallet cause you don't have to use as much. The late Gordon Jennings, a renown 2 stroke guru did a dyno test and found that engines made MORE HP up to 8:1 ratio before it got near impossible to keep running at low RPM. Heres why:

More lubrication, less friction.
Thicker mixture, better ring seal.
Higher BTU burn then gasoline.

More interesting information located here: http://www.planetsand.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/538387/page/0/fpart/1


If you read through that thread, you will also discover that although some synthetic oils like Amsoil, Klotz, etc have a better lubricity in tests, that the refined castor oils (Blue Marble, 927, blendzall, etc) leave a residue after they have been burnt that further lubricates things (think of something similar to graphite) that the synthetic oils do not have.


Agreed....People always thinking I am crazy for running 20:1 in my 250r's but they still have the original crankshaft/bearings and still solid runners.

4 strokes have the luxury of having a continuous "bath" of oil. Why are we trying to take away oil from a 2 stroke? Repeated dyno tests always show that more oil gives more power to a point so dont be stingy with that stuff:)

RideRedFan
05-03-2007, 09:27 PM
I used off the shelf 2 cycle oil for years in my chainsaws... one day I ran out and everything was ready to cut. Quad hooked to trailer, log splitter running, yadda, yadda, yadda. I remembered that I had some amsoil over in the shop where I keep the sleds. :idea: (the dark stuff... it's HP injector now, can't remember what they called it them) Poured 1 pop can (12 oz) in 6 gallons of high test gas. That saw IMMEDIATELY ran better than day that it EVER had run before. Higher revs, more power, idled better... it was like someone mounted a baby turbo on that thing.. I've used that same blend and product ever since. To be honest, I never really noticed a huge difference in the sleds, but that day running that saw made me a believer.;)

I was at a garage sale last year and bought like 5 gal. of regular 2 cycle oil and a bunch of Amsoil stuff for $10... I knew I wanted the Amsoil, but the 2 cycle went right into the old Dodge / Cummins one gallon at a time! Can't beat "free" diesel fuel! (Especially at these prices:wondering

Bryan Raffa
05-03-2007, 09:31 PM
AmsOil.....DOMINATOR

crackshot
05-03-2007, 11:05 PM
I can say this about the Dominator at 40:1 also, I have NEVER fouled a plug using it. I did finally have to replace the spark plug after about 6 months because it was taking about 6 kicks to get it started instead of the usual 2 kicks.

Billy Golightly
05-03-2007, 11:11 PM
Billy your talking about those ratios with castors/mineral oils, not synthetic just so ppl don't get confused. I would/will run Benol Castor if I could get it easily I agree but synthetic does protect your motor. I think the average rider can get away with a good quality synthetic since they aren't really tuning motors for max hp.

Well I think the ratios are applicable with any oil, whether castor or synthetic. Does the average joe NEED to run a mixture richer then 50:1? No. Will it help if he does? Most definitely.

BigGreenMachine
05-03-2007, 11:36 PM
Well synthetics aren't made the same as castor oils so they wouldn't burn the same. What I mean a 16:1 synthetic ratio wouldn't burn like a 16:1 castor ratio because of their chemical makeup.

Or

Would they burn the same but the difference being the oily ash-like leftovers the castor would leave behind?

mymint87
05-03-2007, 11:51 PM
To me, oil is oil........

LOL....I usta ride a DT250 YAMAHA back and forth to high school...it had an oil injector on it and I would run my moms cooking oil...LOL...to me it had that distinctive smell of something similar to Bel-Ray...

AND NEVER HAD ANT PROBS......

this thread is full of a bunch of :postwhore 's getting down to the molecular level and Snake oil salesmen

Bryan Raffa
05-04-2007, 08:42 AM
LOL....I usta ride a DT250 YAMAHA back and forth to high school...it had an oil injector on it and I would run my moms cooking oil...LOL...to me it had that distinctive smell of something similar to Bel-Ray...

AND NEVER HAD ANT PROBS......

this thread is full of a bunch of :postwhore 's getting down to the molecular level and Snake oil salesmen

Back in the days of dinosaurs cooking oil and 2 stroke oil were the same.. Oil refinery has come a long way since the days of the snake oil salesman..Man your Old!:lol:

Greiver430x
05-04-2007, 11:49 AM
Ive always ran PJ1 goldfire at 40:1 no problems. doesnt foul plugs to much either. the way I look at it no oil is worse than too much oil.

Billy Golightly
05-04-2007, 12:45 PM
Well synthetics aren't made the same as castor oils so they wouldn't burn the same. What I mean a 16:1 synthetic ratio wouldn't burn like a 16:1 castor ratio because of their chemical makeup.

Or

Would they burn the same but the difference being the oily ash-like leftovers the castor would leave behind?



Ok I get what your saying now. Most synthetic oils have a higher flash point then castors. So in that aspect of the equation on the flash points, the castor will probably make more power. But your still going to have less friction and better ring seal (Probably the best power enhancer) with the synthetic or castor at higher content ratios then most people are using.

BigGreenMachine
05-04-2007, 02:00 PM
Going to track down some Klotz Benol/Maxima 927/Blue Marble tomorrow, see if I can get it in locally.

SpeedBump
05-05-2007, 01:34 AM
Question....what is lean? What is rich? Are you guys saying MORE oil is a rich mix? I don't agree. In a gallon of mixed fuel...more oil means less fuel...less fuel=lean. Same gallon with LESS oil....more fuel....more fuel=rich. When these tests were done, comparing amounts of oil to output of HP was the jetting changed or just different fuel/oil ratios used? Not calling bs on anything posted, just trying to get some stuff verified. I personally run 50:1 Dominator. I change out my piston/rings each spring. Running as many hours as I do, my stuff wears alot. I may be able to get more time outta a topend if I were to use more oil, but I like it where it is and it saves a bit of $$$ and I know my piston/rings are good for the season.

I have used Maxima and Klotz Benol, and Supertechnoplate. Liked em all. Ran Honda HP2 also. smelled TOO nasty... I am very happy with my Amsoil and I got a buddy 4 miles away that is a dealer so I can get it any time I need. I think you will be fine with any one of the major brands out there. There are some differences, but I doubt it will matter much. Later

Bryan Raffa
05-05-2007, 07:39 AM
Question....what is lean? What is rich? Are you guys saying MORE oil is a rich mix? I don't agree. In a gallon of mixed fuel...more oil means less fuel...less fuel=lean. Same gallon with LESS oil....more fuel....more fuel=rich.


yo speed you got it backwards More oil is rich and less is lean.. Your not getting any less fuel thats still the same,Its the amount of oil put in it.. think of it this way,, If you put strait gas in your 2 stroke would it be too rich or too lean?? Too lean!! and Boom

say you mix your oil at 50:1 and its jetted correct.. perfict color plug.. Then switch it to 32:1 that extra oil will make your plug black from the extra oil..you might see black spooge dripping from your silencer..thus RICH

Billy Golightly
05-05-2007, 08:41 AM
Question....what is lean? What is rich? Are you guys saying MORE oil is a rich mix? I don't agree. In a gallon of mixed fuel...more oil means less fuel...less fuel=lean. Same gallon with LESS oil....more fuel....more fuel=rich. When these tests were done, comparing amounts of oil to output of HP was the jetting changed or just different fuel/oil ratios used? Not calling bs on anything posted, just trying to get some stuff verified. I personally run 50:1 Dominator. I change out my piston/rings each spring. Running as many hours as I do, my stuff wears alot. I may be able to get more time outta a topend if I were to use more oil, but I like it where it is and it saves a bit of $$$ and I know my piston/rings are good for the season.

I have used Maxima and Klotz Benol, and Supertechnoplate. Liked em all. Ran Honda HP2 also. smelled TOO nasty... I am very happy with my Amsoil and I got a buddy 4 miles away that is a dealer so I can get it any time I need. I think you will be fine with any one of the major brands out there. There are some differences, but I doubt it will matter much. Later

I've heard this before and don't believe it for 2 seconds. The "Theory" is that some how, when you had additional oil mix to the gas, that because there is technically less gas that you are getting a leaner AIR/FUEL mixture in the carb. This is BS. The carb does not know or care how much oil you run in the gas. It doesn't separate the oil and process only the remaining gas or anything like that. Whatever amount of oil you dump in is mixed with the gasoline and runs right through the carb into the engine where it burns just like the gas does.


Now, if upon mixing a richer ratio (from 50:1 to say 20:1) your engine feels/runs leaner, its because the additional BTU of the extra oil is making itself noticed ;)

filipinoredneck
05-05-2007, 09:41 AM
I've heard this before and don't believe it for 2 seconds. The "Theory" is that some how, when you had additional oil mix to the gas, that because there is technically less gas that you are getting a leaner AIR/FUEL mixture in the carb. This is BS. The carb does not know or care how much oil you run in the gas. It doesn't separate the oil and process only the remaining gas or anything like that. Whatever amount of oil you dump in is mixed with the gasoline and runs right through the carb into the engine where it burns just like the gas does.


Now, if upon mixing a richer ratio (from 50:1 to say 20:1) your engine feels/runs leaner, its because the additional BTU of the extra oil is making itself noticed ;)


I have always thought that the term running lean vs. rich only has to do witht the carb set up on fuel ( whether gas or gas/oil mix) to air mixture. Then again, I would beleive you also would have to take into account the amount of oil you would place into the whole equation as this reduces the amount of acctual gas per combustion explosion, hence the less oil , the more gas the more power per stroke. I guess now the question is, is the type of oil capable of lubricating all the internal moving parts with this minimum amount of content. I think only a chemist will now be able to answer that. Anyone work in CSI? We need an analysy of the molecular composition of each oil and test their temperature rating and breakdown point. Sorry, I've been watching too much TV before I bought these trikes. I do prefer the trikes though.:beer

Billy Golightly
05-05-2007, 09:47 AM
There air/fuel mixture lean and then there is Fuel/oil (premix) lean. The people that believe more oil in the gas (richer premix) makes a leaner Air/fuel mixture are basing that on the fact that they do not think the oil burns-it does.

mymint87
05-05-2007, 10:01 AM
I think only a chemist will now be able to answer that. Anyone work in CSI? We need an analysy of the molecular composition of each oil and test their temperature rating and breakdown point. .:beer

Dudical,

your thread now borders on being moved to the "mad scientist lair"...:crazy:

Take Billy Golightly's posts for example...:welcome: WTF??? :welcome: Total Brain Surgery?
Some of his answers can only be credited to MUCHO research,

I can picture Billy down in the basement, with his barrels of solvents, test tubes, hoses, vials and bubbling mixtures perking from the bunsen burners, and him dressed in some kind of "Hondaline lab suit" with a :twisted: INSANE SMERK:twisted: on his face.....and of course his 250R is all strapped down on a gurney right beside him.....CAN anyone else see it?:postwhore

filipinoredneck
05-05-2007, 10:03 AM
There air/fuel mixture lean and then there is Fuel/oil (premix) lean. The people that believe more oil in the gas (richer premix) makes a leaner Air/fuel mixture are basing that on the fact that they do not think the oil burns-it does.

I would also beleive some portions of the oil will burn during the combution process, but the will still be oils that will leave with you exhaust. I don't beleive all the oil in the mix will burn out. This is probably why a lot of boaters are jumping on the 4stroke wagon because of all the oils that is being left in the water. I know I have. Iused to have a 85hp Johnson, now i have a 4.3 V6. inboard. I really hated seeing the oil around my my boat.

BigGreenMachine
05-05-2007, 11:09 AM
Now, if upon mixing a richer ratio (from 50:1 to say 20:1) your engine feels/runs leaner, its because the additional BTU of the extra oil is making itself noticed.


So now that you run a richer oil mix and the engine is burning hotter you would need to richen the jetting to get the motor back to normal temp?

Billy Golightly
05-05-2007, 11:32 AM
If it were jetted correctly to start with, my opinion would be yes. You might also need to make a difference in heat ranges on your spark plugs. But, theres no way to know for sure without trying it because every oil is different, and one oil might put out a lot more heat at the same mixture then another one.

ccdhowell
05-05-2007, 03:36 PM
This topic always did confuse me. I frequent a board called "Bob Is The Oil Guy" that is full of dedicated oil nuts. I started a thread there to see if those guys have anything to add to this discussion. It is interesting to me because I can never seem to find an oil I like, I always wonder will this, or that, or something new will work better, so I try it, and this means that I switch oils allot and mix ratios some too. Interesting topic.

Here's the thread I started:http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=887309&page=0&vc=#Post887309


Chris

Dammit!
05-05-2007, 04:16 PM
I run Klotz Super Techniplate at 40:1. Only reason I went with 40:1 is because it gets me an even number of five gallon mixes from a one gallon conatiner of oil. :lol: I really don't think it matters a tremendous amount as long as you're jetted right for whatever premix you run.

I used to always run Klotz R50 until I moved here and could never find it nearby. My local dealer is carrying it now so I may switch back to that from Klotz Supertechniplate. R50 costs nearly twice as much but if the specs are to be believed it is a better oil. I've never had a problem with either.

http://www.niagaramarinehobbies.com/KLOTZ%20Oil_1.htm

Billy Golightly
05-05-2007, 04:41 PM
Dudical,

your thread now borders on being moved to the "mad scientist lair"...:crazy:

Take Billy Golightly's posts for example...:welcome: WTF??? :welcome: Total Brain Surgery?
Some of his answers can only be credited to MUCHO research,

I can picture Billy down in the basement, with his barrels of solvents, test tubes, hoses, vials and bubbling mixtures perking from the bunsen burners, and him dressed in some kind of "Hondaline lab suit" with a :twisted: INSANE SMERK:twisted: on his face.....and of course his 250R is all strapped down on a gurney right beside him.....CAN anyone else see it?:postwhore




If you guys only knew. Sometimes I run experiments for days at time, I can't even go take a shower or I might miss something. Bathroom trips have to be timed very carefully. The things I do in the name of research :eek:

Bryan Raffa
05-05-2007, 04:46 PM
If you guys only knew. Sometimes I run experiments for days at time, I can't even go take a shower or I might miss something. Bathroom trips have to be timed very carefully. The things I do in the name of research :eek:

As long as your not experimenting in the shower!:eek: :eek: :lol:

random-strike
05-05-2007, 05:41 PM
i usually use the honda 2 stroke oil, 32:1 cause thats what the bottle + 4 gallons is....

Mike_Ham_250R
05-05-2007, 06:55 PM
If this has been mentioned already I don't know, I didnt read this thread but,

In my 85 R I run that Sabre *Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited* at 70:1 with a carb thats jetted fairly lean and it works great. Tons of power, no falling on its face.

burnoutboy
05-06-2007, 02:04 AM
I never seized a 2 stroke but I did wear a couple of them out. I never had a carbon build up problem or excessive smoke unless I went to the gas station and bought whatever 2 stroke oil no name brand that they had.


Did your bikes smoke much with the cheap gas station oil? I imagine they would.

filipinoredneck
05-06-2007, 02:36 PM
As long as your not experimenting in the shower!:eek: :eek: :lol:

This was hilarious bryan.:Bounce :Bounce :Bounce

Billy Golightly
05-07-2007, 06:16 PM
I'm gonna go ahead and move this to the Mad Scientists lair, because I think it'll be a good addition to that area :)

ccdhowell
05-07-2007, 10:50 PM
If you haven't followed my link above, check it out, the oil gurus at Bob Is The Oil Guy have some interesting things to say about this topic. Since it was moved to the Mad Scientists Liar, how about a link to some mad oil scientists:http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=888595&page=0&vc=#Post888595

Billy, you may want to jump in the discussion on the linked board, interesting.


Chris

Billy Golightly
05-07-2007, 11:16 PM
Thanks, I'll register and make a post over there.

BigGreenMachine
05-07-2007, 11:33 PM
Some interesting stuff right there Ccdhowell.

Billy, got the link to the thread on E2S about mix ratios?

Billy Golightly
05-07-2007, 11:39 PM
Not sure which one you mean BGM? Can't think of any threads on mix ratios that was on E2S? The one at planet sand, I linked to on the first or second page I think it was.

BigGreenMachine
05-07-2007, 11:55 PM
It must have been Billy, my mistake. Just looked on E2S and couldnt find it, d'oh.

BigGreenMachine
05-10-2007, 11:37 AM
Great read here on castor oil mix ratios.

http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf


Now after reading that I'm left with the question about castor oil longevity. Does it in fact become "bad" after sitting about a week?

What does "degummed castor" mean?

Bryan Raffa
05-10-2007, 12:16 PM
It's probably the very best castor oil you can find and has no additives in it. Castrol have been making it for about 100 years now and in fact that's where the name of the company comes from, CASToR OiL

If you want degummed racing castor, Klotz make a superb fortified castor product called BeNOL.

BeNol is another name for castor

Thats why I run Super Techni Plate it's 20% BeNOL and the best of both worlds!

BigGreenMachine
05-10-2007, 12:23 PM
I've been looking at Klotz Benol, trying to track it down locally.

Now if I let this degummed Castor sit for a week will it be no longer useable?

Bryan Raffa
05-10-2007, 12:28 PM
never heard that.. when mixed it stays suspended in the gas unlike cheep oil
A week Highly unlikely!

Degummed castor oil reduces ring groove deposits and protects engines in high RPM and extreme heat applications.

ccdhowell
05-10-2007, 12:28 PM
I read the article too. Seems to me they are saying that if it is left mixed with gasoline it will go bad. I didn't know that and may not use castor based oils because of that. I'd have to drain all the oil from the carb in between weekend rides or it may gum up the whole engine.

Bryan Raffa
05-10-2007, 12:31 PM
that artical is from 1978!!!!! OIL HAS COME A LONG WAY!

BigGreenMachine
05-10-2007, 12:41 PM
Got to track down some BeNol and thats all there is to it.

Billy Golightly
05-10-2007, 01:09 PM
I've never seen any oil separate from the gas. Hell I've had gas in cans sit out in the sun for weeks and then dump it in and ride on more then one occasion.

Bryan Raffa
05-10-2007, 01:58 PM
me too billy :lol: I just finished up race gas this winter from trikefest!

hotrod 110
07-14-2007, 11:34 PM
On the bottle, It says you can run down to 50:1 mixture with the saber. Did you have any bad results mechanically running at 70:1.

I used to fly and compete with radio control aerobatics about 10 years ago. At one point, I was mixing my own methanol with castor oil. I wasn't too crazy about the varnish it left behind inside and outside of the engines. I also tried Klotz for a while, I preffered that better until it got to be too much storing a 55 gallon drum of methanol in my garage as well as a few gallons of nitro.:crazy: I really didn't like the idea of that, but thats how much fuel I would go through in a summer. That was a lot of practice considering I only use 12oz. of fuel each flight. Do the math.

I'll try a bottle of saber and then a bottle of HP. I don't mind spending money on quality oil as long as my engines keep together.
A few dollars every week is better than a few hundred every month.

Thanks guys:beer

I used to race MX on my quad and I didn't have any issues running 70:1 with premium pump gas. If I remember I had to lean the jets because I was running more fuel with the leaner oil mixture.

riverrat
07-17-2007, 06:19 AM
On the bottle, It says you can run down to 50:1 mixture with the saber. Did you have any bad results mechanically running at 70:1.

I used to fly and compete with radio control aerobatics about 10 years ago. At one point, I was mixing my own methanol with castor oil. I wasn't too crazy about the varnish it left behind inside and outside of the engines. I also tried Klotz for a while, I preffered that better until it got to be too much storing a 55 gallon drum of methanol in my garage as well as a few gallons of nitro.:crazy: I really didn't like the idea of that, but thats how much fuel I would go through in a summer. That was a lot of practice considering I only use 12oz. of fuel each flight. Do the math.

I'll try a bottle of saber and then a bottle of HP. I don't mind spending money on quality oil as long as my engines keep together.
A few dollars every week is better than a few hundred every month.

Thanks guys:beer

Hey another radio control guy!
www.blackdirtsquadron.org

I got a tartan 50cc twin that runs on methanol and klotz. 6oz of klotz to one gallon. I got a 55 gallon drum in my shop :)

3Razors
07-19-2007, 02:58 PM
I've heard this before and don't believe it for 2 seconds. The "Theory" is that some how, when you had additional oil mix to the gas, that because there is technically less gas that you are getting a leaner AIR/FUEL mixture in the carb. This is BS. The carb does not know or care how much oil you run in the gas. It doesn't separate the oil and process only the remaining gas or anything like that. Whatever amount of oil you dump in is mixed with the gasoline and runs right through the carb into the engine where it burns just like the gas does.


Now, if upon mixing a richer ratio (from 50:1 to say 20:1) your engine feels/runs leaner, its because the additional BTU of the extra oil is making itself noticed ;)

I have to disagree. Thicker liquid mixtures do not flow as fast as thinner liquid mixtures. Thus you need to have your jets adjusted accordingly. If you take a bone stock fresh from the factory floor 250R that was jetted/design by Honda to run at 20:1 and you put a 50:1 mixture in it, the plug will look oily and dark because the jets in the carb are too large for a 50:1 mix. You would have to run smaller jets than stock for the bike to run correctly.

tecat-z
07-21-2007, 01:49 AM
3razors, your theory is very sound, and it has proven to be true with my tecate. Running 32-1 with a 96 octain fuel running through a 38mm keihin A.S. carb my pilot was a 50, stock needle and a 185 main, and it ran great like this. Changing to VP c12 and a 40-1 ratio my bike would barely pull the main, but was very lean on the needle. I replaced the needle with a richer one, had to go down to a 170 main and the pilot remains a 50. Just because one is mixing a richer fuel doesnt mean the engine is burning all of it. In fact, very little of it is actually burned. It ends up as residual in the crancase, and the rest is spit out of exhaust as unburnt fuel in the form of thick smoke or gooey tar. The oil takes up the space of the fuel, which is what is burnt, and the more oil in fuel there is the slower it travels through jets, which means you have even LESS fuel now. So you are burning less fuel with a bigger jet, than with smaller jet with a leaner fuel-oil mix. I was skeptical on this as well for a long time. And my variable is a different fuel. But a can say i have absolutely no oil coming out of my silencer. Looks like a four stroke on the inside. Sorta scarry, but what a difference in crispness and cleanliness. I rode the hell out of it at TF like this and rode it very hard all day at Silver Lake, and it ran like a champ at both places. It's kinda strang to think about and make sense of, since it's easy to reason more oil means it will run richer. But i was happy to find out the opposite was true for me. And getting me to try something different is no easy feat.

BigRedRunner
08-02-2007, 07:20 PM
I have to disagree. Thicker liquid mixtures do not flow as fast as thinner liquid mixtures. Thus you need to have your jets adjusted accordingly. If you take a bone stock fresh from the factory floor 250R that was jetted/design by Honda to run at 20:1 and you put a 50:1 mixture in it, the plug will look oily and dark because the jets in the carb are too large for a 50:1 mix. You would have to run smaller jets than stock for the bike to run correctly.


Oooo atomization! :w00t:

Liquid-Darkness
08-09-2007, 10:07 PM
Great read here on castor oil mix ratios.

http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf


Now after reading that I'm left with the question about castor oil longevity. Does it in fact become "bad" after sitting about a week?

What does "degummed castor" mean?

So Gorden Jennings and his team went to Webco to use their dyno for a week and ran the heck out of a Suzuki 250 and a few pistons. The conclusion was the 15:1 mixture at the time did produce more power then the 20 and 30:1. Anyone remeber which brand of oil was said to be kicking butt at the time?

He mentioned the Suzuki engine gave a sigh of relief when the 15:1 mix got into the engine. The recomended mix of 20:1 had less varnish on the piston and a few more hp then the 30:1.

With the final 15:1 test adding the oil reduced the varnish even more and tested three bhp more then the 30:1.

With the tests performed on the Suzuki 250 back in the good old 1970's,
which option was the best? I read in the write-up the more oil in the mix would cause the rings to stick after a few minutes of running. Thats a down side to the more oil in the gas.

The other down side is that there were more carbon deposits on the spark plug with the 15:1 and you know what that leads to. The 20:1 had less carbon deposits and made a little less bhp then the 15:1. The 30:1 caused the most piston damage/cylinder damage and lost 12% bhp. The 30:1 also gave the most piston coating film of varnish.

You guys should read this, the tests prove that at the time the best oil mixture to use was probably 20:1. So what does this mean for us and our oils today?

tecat-z
08-10-2007, 12:13 AM
Don't really know, other than what has worked for my particuler application. It's also important to remember how far oils have come since the 70's, where synthetic oil was still unheard of. Not to mention the advanced fuels we now have access to. Going back to the 60's , there wasn't even 2stroke specific oil. Just mixed gas with plain old motor oil. As engine technology advanced, so did the need for more reliable lubrication, due to rising engine rpm's and output. Liquid cooling then allowed for tighter tollerances due to more consistent operating temps. Look at 2 cycle outboard engines. They all run at 50-1 and sometimes leaner due to the consistent temps they run at. And they can be idled for hours on end while trolling, and never foul a plug. At least this has been my experience with them. And when you consider the years of service they give you under extreme stress, since there is no coasting with boats, then you can start to understand that a 2 cycle engine only needs (enough) oil to live a very long and powerful life. Any more is just expelled through smoke, or residual oil pumped out the exhaust left to drip all over the place. Careful tolerances of piston to cylinder, PROPER JETTING, and care taken to keep air clean it what extends engine service life. Just a few short years ago when 2 strokes still dominated motocross, they ran their bikes for MAX POWER. They would run as little as 50,70-1. Realize, they were not concerned about engine longevity, just power. And they all ran them on the absolute edge of minimum lubrication, and even then, engine seisures were extremely rare. But, tolerances were so strict, and jetting was so accurate, that this could be done safely. And factory pilots are in no way easy on their engines. In the end, as always, it's all up to the owner of each machine to use and mix whatever oil he, or she feels comfortable with. And what you expect to do with your particular machine.

blue
09-25-2007, 08:30 PM
Nice Buck... I never heard of running lean other then it blew... Try the blue Marble I love it and every one I have got to try it is amazed at the results.. www.bluemarblestore.com

Rick:w00t: